I work at Stop & Shop (a grocery store, for those of you not in the area). The union has decided to strike, as the contract that corporate made for the new year was taking away benefits, health care, and vacation time that we already had. In addition, the union is fighting for higher wages.
At 12:57 PM, I got a text that Stop & Shop would be going on strike at 1 PM. I didn't start work until 5. The store closed early at 8 PM (instead of 10); there were two managers running the whole store, as the managers are not unionized. After 8 PM, the only one in the store was Marty the Robot (yes, we really have a robot).
Many of the customers trying to get in the store were there for the Citizens Bank inside. As the bank is not part of Stop & Shop itself, we were fine with them going in. As were were open even during strike, we could not force customers not to enter, but we could persuade them.
Nice! Do you think that the strike will work?
Pensions and premium holiday pay are essentially dead in the retail world in general. Granted the profits look good for Stop and Shop at the moment. I'd be really leery getting into relying on Unions to save entry level jobs that could easily be replaced. The whole retail industry is moving towards low pay entry level workers.
Up to 5 different unions affecting the stores in CT, MA and RI here. I worked in Local 371 when I did Deli at the Berlin, CT store (#614) from 2013 to 2018. Local 919 involves the front-end cashiers, the service desk, bottle room and the cart pushers. I don't know anybody with the other 3 unions. CBS channel 3 of Hartford said the last strike with picketing employees was a good 30 years ago.
I find it very hypocritical that Stop & Shop can't help their employees...but had plenty of money to roll out their needless campaign with the Marty robot nonsense.
yeah as much as they value you they will probably fire everyone and start over.
So what is the store offering, and what is the union wanting? Everyone seems to through out vague information such as the stores profit and industry averages, which is basically meaningless info.
This is the bullshit "Marty" robot they magically had the money to waste on...
[Store #614 in Berlin, CT...the one I had worked at]
(https://i.imgur.com/A9Ja7YA.jpg)
Quote from: jeffandnicole on April 12, 2019, 08:11:53 AM
So what is the store offering, and what is the union wanting? Everyone seems to through out vague information such as the stores profit and industry averages, which is basically meaningless info.
The contract expired in February, and the company tried to make a new contract since January, one month before it expired. This contract would take away health care benefits and vacation time benefits. Even though state law says that time and a half on Sundays is being phased out, the union wants to keep it. There are also issues with pensions. I'm only a part time worker, so I'm not sure of the exact details.
There is another problem with wages: As an example, minimum wage in Massachusetts was $11 per hour last year and is $12 per hour this year. Someone making $11.55 last year (which requires working for 2 years) would only be bumped up to $12 starting in January, not $12.55, meaning that those working longer are not getting more money.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on April 11, 2019, 09:56:47 PM
Pensions and premium holiday pay are essentially dead in the retail world in general. Granted the profits look good for Stop and Shop at the moment. I'd be really leery getting into relying on Unions to save entry level jobs that could easily be replaced. The whole retail industry is moving towards low pay entry level workers.
So is the hospitality industry. My first motel job, I got holiday pay for Thanksgiving & Christmas if I worked. A few years later, it was "we're expected to be here anyway so why should you get holiday pay?" Then it became low man on the totem pole or whoever didn't have a family.
Year-end bonuses got cut back, too. That was around the time the owner, Mr K, started aggressively building more hotels
Quote from: 1 on April 12, 2019, 08:20:14 AM
There is another problem with wages: As an example, minimum wage in Massachusetts was $11 per hour last year and is $12 per hour this year. Someone making $11.55 last year (which requires working for 2 years) would only be bumped up to $12 starting in January, not $12.55, meaning that those working longer are not getting more money.
This has always been an issue with a rising Minimum Wage. I remember when I first started working I was making above minimum wage, but when the minimum wage went above what I was making, my raise only bumped up to the new minimum wage.
In everyone's fight for $15 an hour, there's a much larger issue looming. Let's say the minimum wage is now $10 an hour. If the wage immediately bumped up to $15/hour, that's great for everyone working at $10 an hour. But what about those working $11 - $14 an hour? Do they get an equal $5 bump? And if they do, what about everyone working $16 - $19 an hour? You can raise someone making $12/hr to $17/hr without bumping up the guy making $16 an hour already.
It's a tricky slope...one that companies have met with simply doing away with jobs.
Now, to be clear - this doesn't appear to be the issue at hand here...I'm just pointing out the larger issue with a rising minimum wage.
Around here, unions are so weak that people are just expected to work the longest hours at the lowest wages possible.
Quote from: KEVIN_224 on April 12, 2019, 08:18:07 AM
[Store #614 in Berlin, CT...the one I had worked at]
(https://i.imgur.com/A9Ja7YA.jpg)
Such are also in at least two of the
Giant stores near me in southeastern PA.
Quote from: PHLBOS on April 12, 2019, 11:57:57 AM
Quote from: KEVIN_224 on April 12, 2019, 08:18:07 AM
[Store #614 in Berlin, CT...the one I had worked at]
(https://i.imgur.com/A9Ja7YA.jpg)
Such are also in at least two of the Giant stores near me in southeastern PA.
For a period, Stop and Shop also had "weigh and tag it yourself" scales in the produce section, which would generate a price tag for the customer to place on the bag. They were eventually taken out due to reliability and maintenance issues.
Quote from: 1 on April 11, 2019, 09:21:54 PMAs the bank is not part of Stop & Shop itself, we were fine with them going in. As were were open even during strike, we could not force customers not to enter, but we could persuade them.
With all due respect, if I was going to shop at a store and some striker tried to "persuade" me not to shop there, my response wouldn't be pleasant.
Your profile indicates that you're 20 years old and that you're a student. So I'm going to guess that your grocery job is a part-time thing. The notion that you should be forced to join a union to have a part-time job totally rubs me the wrong way. It's one of the problems I have with Kroger. They're unionized, and the high school kids who work at the Stanton, Ky. Kroger after school and on weekends have to join the union. I hear that the union dues eat up a significant part of their paychecks.
Well, not any more. Kentucky outlawed forced unionization year before last.
Quote from: hbelkins on April 12, 2019, 12:39:58 PM
Your profile indicates that you're 20 years old and that you're a student. So I'm going to guess that your grocery job is a part-time thing. The notion that you should be forced to join a union to have a part-time job totally rubs me the wrong way. It's one of the problems I have with Kroger. They're unionized, and the high school kids who work at the Stanton, Ky. Kroger after school and on weekends have to join the union. I hear that the union dues eat up a significant part of their paychecks.
A lot of the grocery workers around here look like they're at least 60.
Quote from: hbelkins on April 12, 2019, 12:39:58 PM
Quote from: 1 on April 11, 2019, 09:21:54 PMAs the bank is not part of Stop & Shop itself, we were fine with them going in. As were were open even during strike, we could not force customers not to enter, but we could persuade them.
With all due respect, if I was going to shop at a store and some striker tried to "persuade" me not to shop there, my response wouldn't be pleasant.
If you went inside anyway, and the store was empty because all the employees were outside striking, your experience wouldn't be pleasant, either.
Quote from: 1 on April 11, 2019, 09:21:54 PM
there were two managers running the whole store
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 12, 2019, 01:37:46 PM
If you went inside anyway, and the store was empty because all the employees were outside striking, your experience wouldn't be pleasant, either.
Or the managers would treat you with respect, and you'd have a pleasant experience.
Quote from: hbelkins on April 12, 2019, 12:39:58 PM
Well, not any more. Kentucky outlawed forced unionization year before last.
The Supreme Court outlawed forced unionization last year nationwide.
Quote from: hbelkins on April 12, 2019, 12:39:58 PM
Quote from: 1 on April 11, 2019, 09:21:54 PMAs the bank is not part of Stop & Shop itself, we were fine with them going in. As were were open even during strike, we could not force customers not to enter, but we could persuade them.
With all due respect, if I was going to shop at a store and some striker tried to "persuade" me not to shop there, my response wouldn't be pleasant.
Your profile indicates that you're 20 years old and that you're a student. So I'm going to guess that your grocery job is a part-time thing. The notion that you should be forced to join a union to have a part-time job totally rubs me the wrong way. It's one of the problems I have with Kroger. They're unionized, and the high school kids who work at the Stanton, Ky. Kroger after school and on weekends have to join the union. I hear that the union dues eat up a significant part of their paychecks.
Well, not any more. Kentucky outlawed forced unionization year before last.
Pfft. I'd rather have a bad union than no union at all. At least with a union, workers can truly negotiate for their wages and benefits rather than have them dictated solely by employers.
The demise of unionization has resulted in the race to the bottom for how much we get paid.
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2019, 01:57:44 PM
Quote from: 1 on April 11, 2019, 09:21:54 PM
there were two managers running the whole store
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 12, 2019, 01:37:46 PM
If you went inside anyway, and the store was empty because all the employees were outside striking, your experience wouldn't be pleasant, either.
Or the managers would treat you with respect, and you'd have a pleasant experience.
Simple math: if there's less labor units and an equal number of customers before the strike, there's going to be upset customers at the longer checkout lines. All the while, the manager tries to figure out how to key in the produce code for kumquats, or the customers get pissed off because nobody knew how thin Mrs Smith likes her Muenster cheese cut.
If the robot can't bale cardboard boxes, take out the trash, make change, nor figure out how to arrange produce, it doesn't belong in a grocery store.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on April 12, 2019, 02:00:11 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on April 12, 2019, 12:39:58 PM
Well, not any more. Kentucky outlawed forced unionization year before last.
The Supreme Court outlawed forced unionization last year nationwide.
Citation, please
If you are referring to the IL case, that was specifically for Public Sector, not Private Sector Unions, if memory serves
I am a dues paying IBEW member, full disclosure
I guess, technically, in IL, Union Membership is not forced per se in a Closed Shop, but if one chooses to not join the Union, that individual still must pay dues and the Union must represent said individual under the Collective Bargaining Agreement
Personally, my dues are a hell of a deal, that is reflected in both pay and also in retirement benefits as well as medical benefit cost. Every Local can be different
Quote from: Rothman on April 12, 2019, 02:02:54 PM
Pfft. I'd rather have a bad union than no union at all. At least with a union, workers can truly negotiate for their wages and benefits rather than have them dictated solely by employers.
The demise of unionization has resulted in the race to the bottom for how much we get paid.
Absolutely agreed
I'm glad I don't live near a Stop and Shop anymore–I didn't get hired by them when looking for work where I grew up and used to live. I much prefer Publix (since May 2014, when I was on a short family vacation in Siesta Key) or Winn-Dixie (since moving here in late September 2017; they have their headquarters just down the road from here).
The last thing this country needs is anti-labor and anti-labor union ideology. I thought we were beyond this already. A working labor union is better than no labor union at all! C'mon people!
Is this whole thread about politics?
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2019, 04:12:08 PM
Is this whole thread about politics?
It could very well be, and in that case, it may end up being locked as a result.
Quote from: ilpt4u on April 12, 2019, 03:20:57 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on April 12, 2019, 02:00:11 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on April 12, 2019, 12:39:58 PM
Well, not any more. Kentucky outlawed forced unionization year before last.
The Supreme Court outlawed forced unionization last year nationwide.
Citation, please
Easy to find many stories on the web such as this random one: https://www.npr.org/2018/06/30/624513403/labor-clout-takes-a-hit-in-supreme-court-ruling-on-dues , but you are correct that it applies to public (government) unions, not private sector unions.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on April 12, 2019, 04:22:53 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on April 12, 2019, 03:20:57 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on April 12, 2019, 02:00:11 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on April 12, 2019, 12:39:58 PM
Well, not any more. Kentucky outlawed forced unionization year before last.
The Supreme Court outlawed forced unionization last year nationwide.
Citation, please
Easy to find many stories on the web such as this random one: https://www.npr.org/2018/06/30/624513403/labor-clout-takes-a-hit-in-supreme-court-ruling-on-dues , but you are correct that it applies to public (government) unions, not private sector unions.
Yup, that was the IL case.
I am well aware of that one. It simply was not as broad a ruling as initially portrayed here
The one thing about this strike is that the non-union stores around me (Price Chopper, Big Y, and some Shop Rites) are seeing an uptick in business, as well as the independent grocery stores. I usually go to Stop & Shop for the deli meats (love Boar's Head), but with the deli closed, I'll either go to Stew Leonard's or Highland Park Market. Also went to Shop Rite this afternoon. The Stop & Shop near me thinks I live in Fairfield County with the way the prices have gone up; Shop Rite usually some good sales.
I was told that the plaza in Cromwell (CT) which had a K-Mart store will soon become a Shop Rite. (Road relate time: Close to CT Routes 372 and 3. Exit 19 of CT Route 9 is very close by.)
Berlin (CT) once had an A&P Super Foodmart. That closed on Columbus Day weekend several years ago. I really wish they'd get another supermarket in Berlin...to give Stop & Shop some more competition.
Another thing not mentioned: The cost of renovation for the S&S stores in greater Hartford. Berlin was one of several which was redone in 2018.
As for the produce question mentioned up-thread: They have the weigh and self-sticker thing in Berlin. It's just out of frame to the right in my picture.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on April 12, 2019, 02:00:11 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on April 12, 2019, 12:39:58 PM
Well, not any more. Kentucky outlawed forced unionization year before last.
The Supreme Court outlawed forced unionization last year nationwide.
Technically, "forced unionization" has been illegal for longer than that. "Closed shop" (where an employer can only hire existing union members) has been illegal since the Taft-Hartley Act was passed in 1947. "Union shop" (which was similar but allowed people to join after being hired) was outlawed in Pattern Makers v. NLRB in 1985. What was left (other than right to freeload) was "agency shop", which required employees to pay their share of the collective bargaining costs but did not require actually joining the union.
Berlin zoning is ridiculous compared to surrounding towns. The only real competition to Stop & Shop is Stew's, which is just over the Newington line. The Berlin Turnpike is interesting; the Berlin stretch is quite sparse with a few retail establishments (I'm surprised the plaza with Home Depot and Kohl's got in), a Dunkin, gas stations, and mini golf courses. Newington has all kind of retail; Walmart, Target, Lowe's, Dick's, and national chain restaurants (Friday's, Chili's, Panera, and the gamut of fast food joints). Berlin can't even put the arches on top of the McDonald's sign (I often wondered about that sign on New Britain Rd.). Plainville doesn't have much competition either (Big Y, Gnazzo's), but Southington does with Stop & Shop (opened in 1993 but not redone), Price Chopper (formerly KMart; opened 2004), Shop Rite (formerly Shaw's and Edwards; opened 2011), and Aldi (less than 2 years old) all on a 3 mile stretch of Queen St (CT 10). There also used to be an A&P Super Foodmart in the plaza with Walmart (formerly Caldor) that closed around 1996 and is now subdivided into a liquor store and a gym; and the original Shop Rite location in the plaza with Bob's (formerly Ames and Zayres) that closed in the early 90's and is now a TJ Maxx. The Cheshire side of town has absolutely nothing now with the devastating fire that destroyed Top's Market.
Quote from: roadman on April 12, 2019, 12:02:09 PM
For a period, Stop and Shop also had "weigh and tag it yourself" scales in the produce section, which would generate a price tag for the customer to place on the bag. They were eventually taken out due to reliability and maintenance issues.
They just added those to my local Giant Eagle recently. Haven't tried to use them yet though.
Quote from: formulanone on April 12, 2019, 02:21:09 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2019, 01:57:44 PM
Quote from: 1 on April 11, 2019, 09:21:54 PM
there were two managers running the whole store
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 12, 2019, 01:37:46 PM
If you went inside anyway, and the store was empty because all the employees were outside striking, your experience wouldn't be pleasant, either.
Or the managers would treat you with respect, and you'd have a pleasant experience.
Simple math: if there's less labor units and an equal number of customers before the strike, there's going to be upset customers at the longer checkout lines. All the while, the manager tries to figure out how to key in the produce code for kumquats, or the customers get pissed off because nobody knew how thin Mrs Smith likes her Muenster cheese cut.
Exactly my point... While it shouldn't be the case, 21st century American business has created the innovation of "managers" who don't actually manage anything other than an Excel spreadsheet, and don't know a damn thing about the parts of business they work in outside the four walls of their office. Learn to run a register? Why not ask them to lick an Ebola culture while you're at it? They'll react the same way!
Stop & Shop might have better managers than that, but I wouldn't bet too much money on that if they're the kind of company that spends money on gimmicky marketing like a robot.
@JP THE ROADGEEK: Thank you! I never thought of it that way! Yes, the road is the BERLIN Turnpike, yet Newington has nearly all the shopping!
Less than 10 years ago, the area next to today's Stew Leonard's expanded. The old Club 2001 was done away with. On some of that footprint now? DiBella's Subs, a relocated Bassett Furniture, and one building with Starbucks on one side and Chipotle on the other. A small building in fron has a dental office and a credit union. This is all in sight of the "BERLIN | INCORPORATED 1785 | TOWN LINE" sign, no less.
Close to that plaza and Stew Leonard's is a relocated Sam's Club. It was half a mile south in Berlin, in the plaza with Home Depot and Kohl's. There's also an L.A. Fitness, which uses the building which Service Merchandise was in years ago.
The downside? That newer plaza lost Toys R' Us and Mattress Firm in the last year or so.
But yeah...Berlin Stop & Shop needs the competition. The former A&P Super Foodmart was east of it on Webster Square Road, closed years ago. It was across from a cineplex and a car dealer. One of the two car dealers which Webster Square Road had, Acura, is now on the Berlin Turnpike, across from the Home Depot/Kohl's plaza.
I don't understand why fast food workers don't unionize more.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 13, 2019, 02:57:29 AM
Quote from: formulanone on April 12, 2019, 02:21:09 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2019, 01:57:44 PM
Quote from: 1 on April 11, 2019, 09:21:54 PM
there were two managers running the whole store
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 12, 2019, 01:37:46 PM
If you went inside anyway, and the store was empty because all the employees were outside striking, your experience wouldn't be pleasant, either.
Or the managers would treat you with respect, and you'd have a pleasant experience.
Simple math: if there's less labor units and an equal number of customers before the strike, there's going to be upset customers at the longer checkout lines. All the while, the manager tries to figure out how to key in the produce code for kumquats, or the customers get pissed off because nobody knew how thin Mrs Smith likes her Muenster cheese cut.
Exactly my point... While it shouldn't be the case, 21st century American business has created the innovation of "managers" who don't actually manage anything other than an Excel spreadsheet, and don't know a damn thing about the parts of business they work in outside the four walls of their office. Learn to run a register? Why not ask them to lick an Ebola culture while you're at it? They'll react the same way!
Stop & Shop might have better managers than that, but I wouldn't bet too much money on that if they're the kind of company that spends money on gimmicky marketing like a robot.
Yeah, I don't know you're actually describing service industry management, at least not restaurant/store managers; I think it's a requirement that they know how to perform all of those functions in case they need to fill in for a missing employee. Plus they need to know how to train their employees to perform those functions. That is how it was when I worked in retail and food service, although that was in the 1990s.
People love to chortle about how that stupid robot (and kiosks at McDonalds, and other automation) is the result of fights for increases in the minimum wage, but those were coming as long as they were going to be cheaper than hiring humans to perform that work.
Automation may eventually eliminate most service jobs. We've seen it with self-checkout. I'm assuming the same thing happened when self-serve gas pumps became a thing. There aren't any more telephone exchange operators (and I believe they had a union). All the apps that pertain to food delivery cut out the middle man at point-of-sale. I hear what the union is saying loud and clear, but I can't find a reason to support their cause when the jobs market is doing well and a company's primary job is to make money, even if that means changes in wages and benefits.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on April 13, 2019, 11:00:57 AM
Automation may eventually eliminate most service jobs. We've seen it with self-checkout. I'm assuming the same thing happened when self-serve gas pumps became a thing. There aren't any more telephone exchange operators (and I believe they had a union). All the apps that pertain to food delivery cut out the middle man at point-of-sale. I hear what the union is saying loud and clear, but I can't find a reason to support their cause when the jobs market is doing well and a company's primary job is to make money, even if that means changes in wages and benefits.
Automation isn't the main reason for this strike.
Quote from: abefroman329 on April 13, 2019, 10:42:25 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 13, 2019, 02:57:29 AM
Quote from: formulanone on April 12, 2019, 02:21:09 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2019, 01:57:44 PM
Quote from: 1 on April 11, 2019, 09:21:54 PM
there were two managers running the whole store
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 12, 2019, 01:37:46 PM
If you went inside anyway, and the store was empty because all the employees were outside striking, your experience wouldn't be pleasant, either.
Or the managers would treat you with respect, and you'd have a pleasant experience.
Simple math: if there's less labor units and an equal number of customers before the strike, there's going to be upset customers at the longer checkout lines. All the while, the manager tries to figure out how to key in the produce code for kumquats, or the customers get pissed off because nobody knew how thin Mrs Smith likes her Muenster cheese cut.
Exactly my point... While it shouldn't be the case, 21st century American business has created the innovation of "managers" who don't actually manage anything other than an Excel spreadsheet, and don't know a damn thing about the parts of business they work in outside the four walls of their office. Learn to run a register? Why not ask them to lick an Ebola culture while you're at it? They'll react the same way!
Stop & Shop might have better managers than that, but I wouldn't bet too much money on that if they're the kind of company that spends money on gimmicky marketing like a robot.
Yeah, I don't know you're actually describing service industry management, at least not restaurant/store managers; I think it's a requirement that they know how to perform all of those functions in case they need to fill in for a missing employee. Plus they need to know how to train their employees to perform those functions. That is how it was when I worked in retail and food service, although that was in the 1990s.
Still is today. I'm a manager in retail and I have at least one stint on the register almost every shift, and usually several.
Quote from: 1 on April 13, 2019, 11:03:03 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on April 13, 2019, 11:00:57 AM
Automation may eventually eliminate most service jobs. We've seen it with self-checkout. I'm assuming the same thing happened when self-serve gas pumps became a thing. There aren't any more telephone exchange operators (and I believe they had a union). All the apps that pertain to food delivery cut out the middle man at point-of-sale. I hear what the union is saying loud and clear, but I can't find a reason to support their cause when the jobs market is doing well and a company's primary job is to make money, even if that means changes in wages and benefits.
Automation isn't the main reason for this strike.
I know but it's a reason not to support it.
Quote from: roadman on April 12, 2019, 12:02:09 PM
For a period, Stop and Shop also had "weigh and tag it yourself" scales in the produce section, which would generate a price tag for the customer to place on the bag. They were eventually taken out due to reliability and maintenance issues.
Wegmans has those. The signs in the produce section have the PLU codes posted, so you just punch in the four-digit code, weigh your produce (or tell it how many you have, for things like lemons), and print a label. They're terrific. They make it so much faster at the checkout....if people use them. For some reason, some people do not use them, and I've even had cashiers thank me for using them. I guess maybe I can understand old ladies being confused by them or not being aware of how to use them, but otherwise, it seems to me it benefits everyone if you print a label because it speeds up the checkout (regardless of whether you're at a staffed lane or the self-checkout).
Now, the Giant grocery chain that operates in the DC area ("Giant of Landover") introduced similar scales shortly after Wegmans began operating around here, but for some idiotic reason Giant doesn't display the PLU numbers anywhere, so unless the sticker on the produce has the number (like how lemons often have an oval sticker with "4053" on it) or you know the number from buying the item regularly (such as russet potatoes being 4072), you have to wade through various screens trying to find the item–and you may not find it, such as if you call it "fennel" and you don't know that Giant insists on calling it "anise." Fine example of a half-arsed implementation of a good idea.
The recent Supreme Court right-to-work case related solely to public sector employees and the opinion holds, among other things, that public sector employees who do not wish to join a union cannot be required to pay union dues. I didn't read the whole opinion, but I believe I read that part of what motivated the lawsuit was unions using dues for partisan political advocacy–that is, support of particular candidates and the like that the non-members didn't want to support.
There was an interesting case–not from the US Supreme Court–back in the late 1980s or early 1990s that addressed a similar issue as to NFL players. The case arose after the failed 1987 NFL players' strike when some Redskins players refused to join the union and then sued when the league ordered union dues withheld from their paychecks (this because the CBA required it). Virginia is a right-to-work state and the players argued Virginia law applied on this issue, regardless of the CBA, because the Redskins were (and are) headquartered in Virginia and the players perform most of their work in Virginia due to the practice facility being here. The NFLPA argued that they're the "Washington" Redskins and they played their games in DC (back then) and DC is not a right-to-work jurisdiction. The courts agreed with the players.
Quote from: bandit957 on April 13, 2019, 10:02:24 AM
I don't understand why fast food workers don't unionize more.
Whatever you want as a worker, you have to pay for as a consumer. How many fifteen-dollar Big Macs are you going to be buying?
Quote from: wanderer2575 on April 13, 2019, 11:41:28 AM
Quote from: bandit957 on April 13, 2019, 10:02:24 AM
I don't understand why fast food workers don't unionize more.
Whatever you want as a worker, you have to pay for as a consumer. How many fifteen-dollar Big Macs are you going to be buying?
The cost would go up 4.3%. https://www.marketwatch.com/story/raising-fast-food-hourly-wages-to-15-would-raise-prices-by-4-study-finds-2015-07-28
Quote from: wanderer2575 on April 13, 2019, 11:41:28 AM
Quote from: bandit957 on April 13, 2019, 10:02:24 AM
I don't understand why fast food workers don't unionize more.
Whatever you want as a worker, you have to pay for as a consumer. How many fifteen-dollar Big Macs are you going to be buying?
If Big Macs become fifteen dollars, there is something far, far more rotten in this country than workers demanding to be paid a living wage.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on April 13, 2019, 11:41:28 AM
Quote from: bandit957 on April 13, 2019, 10:02:24 AM
I don't understand why fast food workers don't unionize more.
Whatever you want as a worker, you have to pay for as a consumer. How many fifteen-dollar Big Macs are you going to be buying?
I guarantee 99% of workers in that industry see unionizing as not worth it.
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on April 13, 2019, 12:06:08 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on April 13, 2019, 11:41:28 AM
Quote from: bandit957 on April 13, 2019, 10:02:24 AM
I don't understand why fast food workers don't unionize more.
Whatever you want as a worker, you have to pay for as a consumer. How many fifteen-dollar Big Macs are you going to be buying?
If Big Macs become fifteen dollars, there is something far, far more rotten in this country than workers demanding to be paid a living wage.
It would raise overall prices by 4%. I know the story quotes a Big Mac in there, but in typical poor writing fashion came to that conclusion without any evidence. An average of 4% doesn't mean everything goes up that same amount. Some things won't go up at all. Some things will probably go up 50%. Depends on the margins of the business and how much of their expenses are wages.
Quote from: abefroman329 on April 13, 2019, 10:42:25 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 13, 2019, 02:57:29 AM
Quote from: formulanone on April 12, 2019, 02:21:09 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 12, 2019, 01:57:44 PM
Quote from: 1 on April 11, 2019, 09:21:54 PM
there were two managers running the whole store
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 12, 2019, 01:37:46 PM
If you went inside anyway, and the store was empty because all the employees were outside striking, your experience wouldn't be pleasant, either.
Or the managers would treat you with respect, and you'd have a pleasant experience.
Simple math: if there's less labor units and an equal number of customers before the strike, there's going to be upset customers at the longer checkout lines. All the while, the manager tries to figure out how to key in the produce code for kumquats, or the customers get pissed off because nobody knew how thin Mrs Smith likes her Muenster cheese cut.
Exactly my point... While it shouldn't be the case, 21st century American business has created the innovation of "managers" who don't actually manage anything other than an Excel spreadsheet, and don't know a damn thing about the parts of business they work in outside the four walls of their office. Learn to run a register? Why not ask them to lick an Ebola culture while you're at it? They'll react the same way!
Stop & Shop might have better managers than that, but I wouldn't bet too much money on that if they're the kind of company that spends money on gimmicky marketing like a robot.
Yeah, I don't know you're actually describing service industry management, at least not restaurant/store managers; I think it's a requirement that they know how to perform all of those functions in case they need to fill in for a missing employee. Plus they need to know how to train their employees to perform those functions. That is how it was when I worked in retail and food service, although that was in the 1990s.
People love to chortle about how that stupid robot (and kiosks at McDonalds, and other automation) is the result of fights for increases in the minimum wage, but those were coming as long as they were going to be cheaper than hiring humans to perform that work.
If the management is like the grocery store chain I once worked at, they're not too far removed from using the register, but less likely to handle the specialized tasks. Almost everyone is "hire from within" in that industry, unless they wear a suit jacket to work. But I think there's a bit of rustiness in not having the practice.
As for McDonald's touch-screens, I think the technological familiarity met the society acceptance point, while the prices and maintenance for those point-of-sale devices was likely less than a year's salary for a cashier. For all the flack McDonald's gets, they're remarkably quick to respond to industry changes (although I think I've only seen the touch-screens three different places in one year).
Day 3 of the Stop & Shop strike is winding down. It was fun to see one of the Local 371 reps having a few words with the Berlin (CT) store manager this morning. In front of at least a dozen workers. She (the union rep) wasn't too thrilled with the boss being outside checking on the employees, etc. I only caught part of it and "Ellen, PLEASE!". (Ellen is the store's manager.)
As for the McD's touch screens? They installed 4 of them at the Berlin, CT location with a renovation last summer/fall.
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 13, 2019, 11:40:37 AM
Wegmans has those. The signs in the produce section have the PLU codes posted, so you just punch in the four-digit code, weigh your produce (or tell it how many you have, for things like lemons), and print a label. They're terrific. They make it so much faster at the checkout....if people use them. For some reason, some people do not use them, and I've even had cashiers thank me for using them. I guess maybe I can understand old ladies being confused by them or not being aware of how to use them, but otherwise, it seems to me it benefits everyone if you print a label because it speeds up the checkout (regardless of whether you're at a staffed lane or the self-checkout).
Growing up just a mile from the flagship Wegmans, I didn't even know any other way existed. Imagine my confusion when I got to Price Chopper and the machine didn't have a "print label" button - it was only there for the shopper to know how much things would cost. I had no idea how one was supposed to pay for such things without a label on the bag for the cashier to scan!
Quote
I didn't read the whole opinion, but I believe I read that part of what motivated the lawsuit was unions using dues for partisan political advocacy–that is, support of particular candidates and the like that the non-members didn't want to support.
Such was actually illegal already, at least for agency fee payers (I think even dues paying members, at least in NY; one of our unions here has certainly tried to get members to sign cards authorizing additional deductions for political spending often enough)... what was new is that now even the act of negotiating the contract is considered "partisan political activity" - at least for public employee unions.
Quote from: vdeane on April 13, 2019, 11:46:27 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 13, 2019, 11:40:37 AM
Wegmans has those. The signs in the produce section have the PLU codes posted, so you just punch in the four-digit code, weigh your produce (or tell it how many you have, for things like lemons), and print a label. They're terrific. They make it so much faster at the checkout....if people use them. For some reason, some people do not use them, and I've even had cashiers thank me for using them. I guess maybe I can understand old ladies being confused by them or not being aware of how to use them, but otherwise, it seems to me it benefits everyone if you print a label because it speeds up the checkout (regardless of whether you're at a staffed lane or the self-checkout).
Growing up just a mile from the flagship Wegmans, I didn't even know any other way existed. Imagine my confusion when I got to Price Chopper and the machine didn't have a "print label" button–it was only there for the shopper to know how much things would cost. I had no idea how one was supposed to pay for such things without a label on the bag for the cashier to scan!
....
Heh, whereas in my case the first time I saw what I guess we can call the "label-printer scales" was when the first local Wegmans opened out near Sterling (next to the Ferrari dealer on the "I-366 portion" of VA-28). Of course I'm a bit older than you are, but when I was growing up, and even into my 30s, the grocery stores' produce scales were hanging baskets with a round analog gauge. The point wasn't to tell you what it would cost so much as it was to tell you how much of something you had–so, for example, if your recipe called for 12 oz of scallions, you could see if you had that much. I always found the scales confusing, though, because they were solely in pounds and didn't show the ounce conversions–they assumed you had been taught that as a kid (we spent minimal time on US units). Of course I guess the same is true of recipes that list everything by volume when the ingredients are sold by weight.
Even after digital scales became more common, the label-printer style didn't take hold here. Harris Teeter has, or at least used to have, a listing of all the PLU codes on a round thing above the cash register–you roll the thing around to find what you want and then enter the code. As far as I know, Giant is the only non-Wegmans chain around that has the label-printer scales, though as I noted earlier they make them hard to use because they don't post the PLU codes anywhere.
What Giant has that nobody else does is a self-scanner gun–it's optional, and if you want to use it, you scan your Giant card when you enter the store, get a gun, then scan and bag your groceries as you shop, and when you get to the checkout you just scan the "end-of-order" barcode on the gun's display and it automatically rings up all your items and you just pay and go (showing a store employee proof of age if needed for beer or wine). This brings me full-circle to this thread's subject: I have no doubt a chain like Wegmans, headquartered in a state with a much stronger union tradition and more left-leaning politics than Virginia, would be less likely to adopt the self-scanner guns because of the perception that they would take away union jobs at the checkout. (Really, think about how stupid the conventional grocery checkout is: You take all these items out of your cart so that a store employee can rearrange them, bag them, and put them back in your cart.)
Heck...most of the grocery stories I'm familiar with still have the analog scales to give you an idea of how much something weighs!
Quote from: jeffandnicole on April 14, 2019, 09:12:04 AM
Heck...most of the grocery stories I'm familiar with still have the analog scales to give you an idea of how much something weighs!
I've found those are getting rarer and rarer, probably because you make more money selling someone two pounds of potatoes when they only needed one, but guesstimated and got it wrong.
Crest has the traditional analog scales in the produce section, but in the bulk items aisle (nuts, olive oil, honey, fresh-ground peanut butter, candy, etc.) they have the label-print scales.
My store doesn't have automatic scales, but for some reason, I can't remember if it has regular scales or not.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 14, 2019, 02:00:39 PM
Crest has the traditional analog scales in the produce section, but in the bulk items aisle (nuts, olive oil, honey, fresh-ground peanut butter, candy, etc.) they have the label-print scales.
Publix Supermarkets tend to have these; not sure if they're required by law to have them (with some Not Legal For Trade decals), or for convenience.
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 14, 2019, 08:49:40 AM
This brings me full-circle to this thread's subject: I have no doubt a chain like Wegmans, headquartered in a state with a much stronger union tradition and more left-leaning politics than Virginia, would be less likely to adopt the self-scanner guns because of the perception that they would take away union jobs at the checkout. (Really, think about how stupid the conventional grocery checkout is: You take all these items out of your cart so that a store employee can rearrange them, bag them, and put them back in your cart.)
Oddly enough, Wegmans stores (not the warehouses) are non-union. Some blue collar workers refuse to shop there for that reason.
As for the checkout process... how do you take groceries in if they aren't in bags?
Quote from: vdeane on April 14, 2019, 07:38:29 PM
Oddly enough, Wegmans stores (not the warehouses) are non-union. Some blue collar workers refuse to shop there for that reason.
Yeah, I knew a ton of people in Buffalo who refused to shop at Wegmans because they're not unionized. Doesn't matter that Wegmans paid better and provided better benefits than Tops (the union supermarket in town). In fact, most retailers that are supposedly very good to work for aren't union shops.
Quote from: vdeane on April 14, 2019, 07:38:29 PM
....
As for the checkout process... how do you take groceries in if they aren't in bags?
Couple of things.
(1) When I was in high school, my mom shopped at Shoppers Food Warehouse. Like some other lower-cost chains (like Aldi), you had to pack your own groceries there. They also charged 3¢ per bag if you wanted grocery bags. Most people used cardboard boxes, and the store facilitated that by making used boxes available for free. There's really no particular reason why grocery bags, either one-time use or reusable, are needed. (I use reusable bags mainly because they're sturdier and they hold more than the plastic or paper bags.)
(2) Regarding the checkout process generally, see my comment above about the self-scanner thing. When you use that, your groceries are already bagged (or boxed) before you ever reach the checkout. You don't have to take anything out at the checkout unless the system flags you for audit, in which case an employee has to rescan something like 10 of your items just as a way of verifying that you didn't, say, scan a bunch of packages of M&Ms while instead you filled your bag with filet mignon.
Somewhere I have a picture of the self-scanner thing, but it pushed off the photo stream on my iPad. I think I may have posted it somewhere on this forum in the past. If I can find it, I'll edit this.
Edited to add: Found the photos in an old post. The end-of-order process has been changed a little since I made this post–now, instead of scanning a barcode on a sign, you tell the device you're done and it generates a barcode you then scan at the checkout.
Quote from: 1995hoo on November 26, 2012, 12:31:05 PM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on November 26, 2012, 12:08:58 PM
....
QuoteThe store where we do our grocery shopping also has some self-scanner devices (they call it the "SCAN IT!" system) where you scan your grocery-store card when you arrive, take a scanner, and scan your groceries as you go. Since we use the reusable bags, we bag them as we go. Saves a lot of time at the checkout because all you do is scan an "end of order" barcode, then scan your grocery-store card again, enter the number of reusable bags (they give you 5¢ off per bag), scan any coupons, and pay (also if you buy beer or wine the attendant has to come over to tell it you're legal). It works really well most of the time and it also gives you discounts on various things based on your shopping history. But the people who don't understand the self-checkout are COMPLETELY CONFOUNDED when they see you waiting on line to pay but not putting any of your groceries on the checkout belt! I like the system because we use the reusable bags, which means I prefer to bag the groceries myself since I have a sense for what I'm buying and how it all fits best into the bags, whereas the cashiers/bag boys just stuff things in any old way.
I would use that system in a heartbeat! What stores have it? When I lived in VA I worked for a local Hampton Roads-area chain and the only exposure to self checkouts I had down there was Food Lion and Kroger.
....
Many, though not all, Giant stores in Northern Virginia have it. When you enter the store this display is off to one side; you scan your card and a scanner lights up and you take that scanner.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2F7c6979ab.jpg&hash=f5d7d2dd085ae90f47db500f157032acc996e7f3)
The shopping cart has a metal doohickey on top that's sort of like a holster and you put the scanner in that. A lot of things can be scanned without removing the device from the cart (you press the yellow button to scan).
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2F5004928f.jpg&hash=79def628c76a133957785d126a85e6fc9e9354c0)
When you're done and you get to the checkout, you scan this barcode first (they've since changed the setup slightly, mainly to use a better sign, but the process is the same) and then you scan your store card, coupons, enter the number of reusable bags, get carded if necessary, and pay.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2Fce718909.jpg&hash=d3ea441dd707f88afa9aa933534378a5ecdbf701)
....
Stop & Shop has the hand-held scanners for shopping, too. At least Berlin, CT (store #614) does. Also, those Giant signs are quite old! Hell, most Stop & Shop store in greater Hartford don't even use the "fruit basket" logo anymore.
(https://i.imgur.com/UXbzt26.jpg)
^^^
If you look at the date of my prior post, you'll see it's from 2012. (They also dropped the 5¢-per-bag discount several years ago.)
I have a box of a hundred cloth bags. Can I get $5 off if I bring it?
https://turtleboysports.com/any-sympathy-i-had-for-stop-n-shop-workers-is-gone-after-the-publicly-shamed-and-harassed-ray-bourque-for-buying-food/
Well at least they're being respectful for people who want to eat.
This stuff is why I don't support unions at all anymore. I live right down the street for a large natural gas transfer station and tank (since you guys know my town here - you can find it on Google, it sticks out pretty dramatically). The National Grid gas workers were locked out and harassing anyone who didn't support them and God forbid a "scab" was doing "their" work. Not to mention the Teamsters on trial in my state for calling a particular celebrity Chef various synonyms for her lady parts because she didn't hire them along with vandalizing their property (https://deadline.com/2017/08/top-chef-teamsters-trial-padma-lakshmi-testimony-terrified-threatened-1202143892/).
As an aside, the only people making money in lockouts and strikes are all the cops getting extra details. That 6 month NG lockout needed 3 cops at all times 24/7 at the entrance. I know the bill, just for the details at that one place, totaled around a million dollars. Of course, if you read that deadline story I linked, they turn a blind eye to union violence as well.
I've had a few run ins with unions, none of them good.
Once my father was rehabbing a building for an ice cream shop he was going to open. A couple union people came in and told him that if he doesn't hire union electricians, they may be forced to picket. (My dad was not a rich man by any stretch of the imagination, and could not afford to hire union.)
Once I was working a computer show in Dayton, Ohio with a friend. Sometime during the last day of the show, the guy who I was doing the show with became horribly ill, to the point that he couldn't do much. I had to pack up the entire booth we had. What normally should have taken two hours took me four because of this. Around ten PM all the vendors were gone. A few minutes later some guy with the union came by in a golf cart. I was having tremendous trouble trying to move something, and I asked if he could give me a hand. He looked at me, shook his head no, and smiled the whole time I was struggling to get the rest of our stuff boxed and loaded.
I have no love for unions because of these situations.
That is all I am going to say on this topic.
Quote from: SectorZ on April 15, 2019, 11:23:18 AM
https://turtleboysports.com/any-sympathy-i-had-for-stop-n-shop-workers-is-gone-after-the-publicly-shamed-and-harassed-ray-bourque-for-buying-food/
Well at least they're being respectful for people who want to eat.
This stuff is why I don't support unions at all anymore. I live right down the street for a large natural gas transfer station and tank (since you guys know my town here - you can find it on Google, it sticks out pretty dramatically). The National Grid gas workers were locked out and harassing anyone who didn't support them and God forbid a "scab" was doing "their" work. Not to mention the Teamsters on trial in my state for calling a particular celebrity Chef various synonyms for her lady parts because she didn't hire them along with vandalizing their property (https://deadline.com/2017/08/top-chef-teamsters-trial-padma-lakshmi-testimony-terrified-threatened-1202143892/).
As an aside, the only people making money in lockouts and strikes are all the cops getting extra details. That 6 month NG lockout needed 3 cops at all times 24/7 at the entrance. I know the bill, just for the details at that one place, totaled around a million dollars. Of course, if you read that deadline story I linked, they turn a blind eye to union violence as well.
God forbid a scab doing their work? Absolutely. Crossing picket lines hurts everyone.
Quote from: Rothman on April 15, 2019, 02:26:29 PM
Quote from: SectorZ on April 15, 2019, 11:23:18 AM
https://turtleboysports.com/any-sympathy-i-had-for-stop-n-shop-workers-is-gone-after-the-publicly-shamed-and-harassed-ray-bourque-for-buying-food/
Well at least they're being respectful for people who want to eat.
This stuff is why I don't support unions at all anymore. I live right down the street for a large natural gas transfer station and tank (since you guys know my town here - you can find it on Google, it sticks out pretty dramatically). The National Grid gas workers were locked out and harassing anyone who didn't support them and God forbid a "scab" was doing "their" work. Not to mention the Teamsters on trial in my state for calling a particular celebrity Chef various synonyms for her lady parts because she didn't hire them along with vandalizing their property (https://deadline.com/2017/08/top-chef-teamsters-trial-padma-lakshmi-testimony-terrified-threatened-1202143892/).
As an aside, the only people making money in lockouts and strikes are all the cops getting extra details. That 6 month NG lockout needed 3 cops at all times 24/7 at the entrance. I know the bill, just for the details at that one place, totaled around a million dollars. Of course, if you read that deadline story I linked, they turn a blind eye to union violence as well.
God forbid a scab doing their work? Absolutely. Crossing picket lines hurts everyone.
Slashing people's tires ACTUALLY hurts someone.
Quote from: SectorZ on April 15, 2019, 02:48:32 PM
Quote from: Rothman on April 15, 2019, 02:26:29 PM
God forbid a scab doing their work? Absolutely. Crossing picket lines hurts everyone.
Slashing people's tires ACTUALLY hurts someone.
As does allowing employers to hold all the cards in labor negotiations.
Scummy tactics from a handful of unions and/or their members does not represent the whole.
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on April 15, 2019, 03:18:00 PM
Quote from: SectorZ on April 15, 2019, 02:48:32 PM
Quote from: Rothman on April 15, 2019, 02:26:29 PM
God forbid a scab doing their work? Absolutely. Crossing picket lines hurts everyone.
Slashing people's tires ACTUALLY hurts someone.
As does allowing employers to hold all the cards in labor negotiations.
Scummy tactics from a handful of unions and/or their members does not represent the whole.
My problem is that too many people turned a blind eye to it. My state's AG, Maura Healey, wouldn't even give her campaign donations back to the Teamsters despite them calling a woman a "dyke" for not hiring them (Healey is a lesbian for those who are not in the know). It finally took the media shaming her for her to do it.
These same people ALWAYS come out siding with the unions, with no expectations that the members should behave themselves. The other members won't police their own, so why the hell should I sympathize with them? They have a one-for-all, all-for-one mentality; let it extend to their individual actions being representative of the union.
Also keep in mind that usually, a compromise is reached, giving better working conditions than without a union, without requiring a strike. Even though there are always a few strikes going on throughout the country, that's just a few out of thousands.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on April 13, 2019, 11:25:24 AM
Quote from: 1 on April 13, 2019, 11:03:03 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on April 13, 2019, 11:00:57 AM
Automation may eventually eliminate most service jobs. We've seen it with self-checkout. I'm assuming the same thing happened when self-serve gas pumps became a thing. There aren't any more telephone exchange operators (and I believe they had a union). All the apps that pertain to food delivery cut out the middle man at point-of-sale. I hear what the union is saying loud and clear, but I can't find a reason to support their cause when the jobs market is doing well and a company's primary job is to make money, even if that means changes in wages and benefits.
Automation isn't the main reason for this strike.
I know but it's a reason not to support it.
Automation fears at one point meant PLU scanners. Employees feared that since it would allow faster checkouts, fewer employees would be needed. Cashiers wanted to keep punching in the amounts by hand, reading the price sticker stamped on the product. Scanners were also often accused as being inaccurate due to programming errors. Of course, if a cashier typed in the wrong amount, there was no way to match up a generic price with a product on the receipt, especially when buying a week's worth of groceries.
Those pricing stickers some have noted at the produce area? Wouldn't exist today if PLU scanners weren't at the checkouts.
Automation isn't a bad thing. And while there may be fewer cashiers needed in the long run, many other jobs were CREATED due to the businesses set up to develop and build those scanners.
There is also a ScanIT app for Stop & Shop (and I'm sure other Ahold/Delhaize stores) through iTunes (and I'm sure Google Play) that even replaces the wands. I've used it a few times. The only thing I DETEST about using that system is when I get flagged for a random audit. Makes me feel singled out like a criminal, and then you have to stand there and wait while the attendant covering the self-checkout scans EVERY LAST item in your bags. At that point, it's now even worth using it.
Wow. Reading all of this about union grocery stores is fascinating. Here in Louisiana, AFAIK, no such critter exists. LA is a right-to-work state. Unions do exist here however. I, myself, am a general chairman at my railroad with the SMART-TD union (formerly UTU). I represent 5 other employees. Railroad unions are a bit different from grocery store unions to the fact that we don't have a direct impact/interaction with the general public.
Don't get me wrong...there are plenty of other unions here in LA. Electrical unions, unions representing manufactured goods (glass, wood, & metal sinks are just a few around me) are here, but I don't think they have near the clout that y'all's unions have up north. If any shoppers were being harassed by angry union employees down here, many major ass-whoopins would be taking place in the parking lots. It would not be a pretty sight.
______________________________________________________
As for McDonald's ordering kiosks are concerned: One of Ruston's 2 McDonalds had them installed during a renovation. I paid it no attention when I walked in because I had no idea what they were. I walked up to the counter to place my order. The manager walked up to me & asked if I wanted to use the new kiosks. I told her, "No not really. I think the human can put my order in faster." But I reluctantly gave it a shot.
Guess what. I was right. The time it took me to figure the machine out...I was placing an order for 3 meals, 2 of them had omissions & additions...with the manager helping me out, I could have been walking out of the restaurant with my food had the human been behind the counter taking my order.
The manager told me that by the end of 2019, all McDonalds restaurants would have the kiosks installed. I looked behind the counter at the employees and I told them, "Y'all do realize these machines will be taking some of your jobs, right?" The manager, with a frightened look on her face, said, "Oh no sir, that is not true. In fact, these will create an extra job or two at each store."
I asked her, "What will the 'cashiers' be doing if the kiosks are doing their job?"
She told me (while my BULLSHIT!! alarms are going off in my head), "The kiosks will allow our employees to walk the floor and mingle with the customers."
I have an honest question for y'all: Do any of y'all go to McDonalds wishing & hoping their employees could come to your table & socialize with you while you are eating?
This pretty much means I will most likely be using the drive thru if I ever go to McDonalds.
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on April 19, 2019, 10:25:34 AM
There is also a ScanIT app for Stop & Shop (and I'm sure other Ahold/Delhaize stores) through iTunes (and I'm sure Google Play) that even replaces the wands. I've used it a few times. The only thing I DETEST about using that system is when I get flagged for a random audit. Makes me feel singled out like a criminal, and then you have to stand there and wait while the attendant covering the self-checkout scans EVERY LAST item in your bags. At that point, it's now even worth using it.
I tried using the app one time. Too awkward, especially for things like beer where the barcode was on the bottom of the package. I found the scanner gun a lot easier to operate for that sort of thing.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on April 19, 2019, 06:39:39 AM
while there may be fewer cashiers needed in the long run, many other jobs were CREATED due to the businesses set up to develop and build those scanners.
Note that I am
not against automation...
How many fewer cashiers ended up being needed? How many jobs were created to develop and build the scanners? I'd suggest that the first number is much, much larger than the second.
Quote from: kphoger on April 19, 2019, 01:42:06 PMNote that I am not against automation...
How many fewer cashiers ended up being needed? How many jobs were created to develop and build the scanners? I'd suggest that the first number is much, much larger than the second.
The experience of automation in the retail space has been very mixed, particularly with self-checkouts that operate on the model of transferring the labor of scanning from (trained, experienced, paid) cashiers to (untrained, inexperienced, unpaid) consumers. Often the final outcome depends on personnel management practices that have nothing to do with the technology itself.
For example, a few months ago I found myself in Walmart buying twelve bags of fifteen-bean soup. I went straight to the self-checkout and the clerk minding the self-checkouts was at my elbow within five seconds, asking if I wanted to take a survey. "Don't do surveys," I said, and she went away. After the sixth bag I noted the running tally was showing seven bags. So I touched the touchscreen to try to remove one of the bags from the count, and of course the system needed clerk intervention to accomplish this. All of the other self-checkouts were in use, so I had to wait for five minutes before another one freed up and I could transfer my bags to it, abandoning the transaction at the first self-checkout. I had rung up all twelve bags and was paying by the time the clerk showed up to clear the aborted transaction.
Things run much more smoothly at Dillons supermarkets (I shop there almost exclusively, but still have to go to Walmart for a few items such as fifteen-bean soup).
The Atlantic--How to steal from self-checkouts (https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/03/stealing-from-self-checkout/550940/)
Vox--Why self-checkout should die (https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2018/10/2/17923050/self-checkout-amazon-walmart-automation-jobs-surveillance)
I probably would have just left the twelfth bag in the cart without scanning it. As long as the final receipt says twelve bags and I have twelve bags, there's not really much to be gained by having the extra bag voided, and it would be obvious I wasn't stealing anything should I be confronted on the matter.
Quote from: kphoger on April 19, 2019, 01:42:06 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on April 19, 2019, 06:39:39 AM
while there may be fewer cashiers needed in the long run, many other jobs were CREATED due to the businesses set up to develop and build those scanners.
Note that I am not against automation...
How many fewer cashiers ended up being needed? How many jobs were created to develop and build the scanners? I'd suggest that the first number is much, much larger than the second.
The argument is also an "apples to oranges" one. Hiring cashiers and other workers directly benefits the local communities around the store, while developing and building the scanner technology doesn't.
Quote from: cjk374 on April 19, 2019, 10:31:42 AM
She told me (while my BULLSHIT!! alarms are going off in my head), "The kiosks will allow our employees to walk the floor and mingle with the customers."
Or maybe they'll wipe up the spilled ketchup on the tables and mop the spilled drinks up from the floor more often.
Quote from: roadman on April 19, 2019, 02:58:40 PM
The argument is also an "apples to oranges" one. Hiring cashiers and other workers directly benefits the local communities around the store, while developing and building the scanner technology doesn't.
Not to mention that cashiers likely don't have the skills needed to develop/build the scanner technology.
Quote from: hbelkins on April 19, 2019, 07:34:27 PM
Quote from: cjk374 on April 19, 2019, 10:31:42 AM
She told me (while my BULLSHIT!! alarms are going off in my head), "The kiosks will allow our employees to walk the floor and mingle with the customers."
Or maybe they'll wipe up the spilled ketchup on the tables and mop the spilled drinks up from the floor more often.
I read that they plan to start delivering food directly to tables like many Panera Bread locations.
The only McDonald's I've visited with the touchscreen (last December in Emporia en route to Florida for Christmas) had the table service vdeane describes.
Quote from: cjk374 on April 19, 2019, 10:31:42 AM
She told me (while my BULLSHIT!! alarms are going off in my head), "The kiosks will allow our employees to walk the floor and mingle with the customers."
As those alarms rightly should be. Fuck that noise.
Seems like the employees were fed a line or two of bullshit that they either believed, or were told to say in the event a customer should ask.
Regarding Mickey D's, the only thing I might go there for is their dollar drinks or if I happen to be up in the morning, a sausage biscuit. Other than that, I hate the place and don't eat there.
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 19, 2019, 09:59:24 PM
The only McDonald's I've visited with the touchscreen (last December in Emporia en route to Florida for Christmas) had the table service vdeane describes.
I had some more thoughts on this. Reducing the number of cashiers would make for longer lines, and eliminating them requires the upfront investment of the kiosks. But reducing the number of staff walking the floor is unlikely to be noticed outside of peak times, and eliminating table service requires only going back to the current pickup system - no investment needed. So even if McDonalds doesn't eliminate any jobs due to the kiosks, they're putting themselves in a situation where reducing/eliminating jobs will be easier.
Incidentally, why someone would want table service at a McDonalds is beyond me. I wouldn't be surprised if it's mainly for PR reasons so they can expend the jobs over time rather than all at once, possibly via attrition instead of layoffs.
Quote from: vdeane on April 20, 2019, 09:58:59 PM
Incidentally, why someone would want table service at a McDonalds is beyond me.
Maybe somebody walking on crutches? ;)
Quote from: vdeane on April 20, 2019, 09:58:59 PM
Incidentally, why someone would want table service at a McDonalds is beyond me.
Why someone wants food at McDonalds is beyond me. I am by no means a food snob but their stuff is gross. Literally every fast food restaurant has better food, except at this point Subway because they've just given up in maintaining any food quality.
Quote from: SectorZ on April 21, 2019, 08:11:32 AM
Quote from: vdeane on April 20, 2019, 09:58:59 PM
Incidentally, why someone would want table service at a McDonalds is beyond me.
Why someone wants food at McDonalds is beyond me.
Maybe they want food so they could actually have lunch. ;-)
Quote from: vdeane on April 20, 2019, 09:58:59 PM
....
Incidentally, why someone would want table service at a McDonalds is beyond me. I wouldn't be surprised if it's mainly for PR reasons so they can expend the jobs over time rather than all at once, possibly via attrition instead of layoffs.
Perhaps–and this is solely speculation–part of the motivation might be crowd control during busy times. Recall McDonald's used to use the system where you ordered and the same cashier who took your order got your food and gave it to you at the register before the next person ordered. That worked pretty well with a short menu on which most items were ready most of the time, but it hasn't worked as well for a long time now and it backed up the customer line. The switch to giving you an order number and then having one employee as the expediter who calls out numbers and hands you your order at the end of the counter addresses the problem of ordering inefficiency but, during busy periods, leads to a lot of customers milling around getting in each other's way waiting for their numbers to be called. (Side note: I have never understood why some people will get their numbers and then stand right at the counter waiting, as if nobody else were waiting, instead of standing back like normal people so that other people who ordered first can get their food when their numbers are called. This is hardly unique to McDonald's, of course. Getting in everyone else's way won't get your number called sooner!)
I've also noted that the choice of employee to act as the expediter can be very important–if the employee doesn't have a loud voice, or doesn't know how to project one's voice, or doesn't speak English very well when calling numbers, the process tends to break down because customers don't promptly respond to pick up their orders while other orders are brought to the counter and start piling up. The table service moves people out of the way and disperses the crowd while also eliminating the need to call numbers.
I don't really have any opinion on whether the new system works any better than the old because the only time I've eaten at McDonald's in the past several months, and the only time I've encountered the new system, was the visit mentioned in my prior post when we stopped in Emporia a few days before Christmas (a breakfast stop between two and three hours after leaving home). I would have preferred something else, but McDonald's was convenient. I have noticed the McDonald's closest to home is undergoing heavy renovation right now and is closed except for the drive-thru (which I won't use unless I only want a drink). They're getting rid of the longstanding familiar roofline for a modern-looking exterior. Don't know if they'll implement the touchscreen ordering inside.
Quote from: SectorZ on April 21, 2019, 08:11:32 AM
Quote from: vdeane on April 20, 2019, 09:58:59 PM
Incidentally, why someone would want table service at a McDonalds is beyond me.
Why someone wants food at McDonalds is beyond me. I am by no means a food snob but their stuff is gross. Literally every fast food restaurant has better food, except at this point Subway because they've just given up in maintaining any food quality.
There are plenty of situations when McD food is better than most other options. Try Niagara Falls, US side. Once you look at all options, you really wish something like McDonalds is there.
Combination of speed, price and consistent - abeit not very high - quality is often a winner. Another example where McD is the best option is Minneapolis airport (personal experience as of last fall):
full service restaurant may be great, but is a no-go if you have 40 minutes connection for the last bank. Waiting 15 minutes for a great deli sandwich (actuall number I saw during same connection) is also problematic. Table service at McD was highly appreciated as standing with 2 bags at pickup area blocks traffic, and you need more than 2 hands to haul 2 bags, baper bag with a sandwich, soda and napkins at the same time.
I have never found McDonald's to be the best option.
Quote from: rickmastfan67 on April 20, 2019, 10:09:14 PM
Quote from: vdeane on April 20, 2019, 09:58:59 PM
Incidentally, why someone would want table service at a McDonalds is beyond me.
Maybe somebody walking on crutches? ;)
(https://i2.wp.com/austenauthors.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/winner-gold-ribbon.png?ssl=1)
Quote from: Rothman on April 21, 2019, 09:55:56 AM
I have never found McDonald's to be the best option.
A nationwide network of free and easy-to-find restrooms, sans paper towels.
Quote from: formulanone on April 21, 2019, 11:29:34 AM
Quote from: Rothman on April 21, 2019, 09:55:56 AM
I have never found McDonald's to be the best option.
A nationwide network of free and easy-to-find restrooms, sans paper towels.
Ha. You got me. I was myopically considering dining options.
Quote from: formulanone on April 21, 2019, 11:29:34 AM
Quote from: Rothman on April 21, 2019, 09:55:56 AM
I have never found McDonald's to be the best option.
A nationwide network of free and easy-to-find restrooms, sans paper towels.
Some of which are locked and restricted to customers, so not really "free". Especially in big cities, and high-crime areas.
Quote from: oscar on April 21, 2019, 11:32:53 AM
Quote from: formulanone on April 21, 2019, 11:29:34 AM
Quote from: Rothman on April 21, 2019, 09:55:56 AM
I have never found McDonald's to be the best option.
A nationwide network of free and easy-to-find restrooms, sans paper towels.
Some of which are locked and restricted to customers, so not really "free". Especially in big cities, and high-crime areas.
But that would also include every restaurant and shop in the area, so it's not exclusive issue to them.
(or just wait and prop your foot in the door of a pay-restroom)
On the company's dime, I usually try to buy something, even if just a bottle of water or granola bar at an establishment.
Slightly on topic, I usually find that most supermarkets will also accommodate. In the case of a former employer, I feel no need to buy anything unless I want to.
Quote from: formulanone on April 21, 2019, 11:29:34 AM
Quote from: Rothman on April 21, 2019, 09:55:56 AM
I have never found McDonald's to be the best option.
A nationwide network of free and easy-to-find restrooms, sans paper towels.
Most have gone to electric hand dryers, anyway.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on April 12, 2019, 09:15:27 AM
Quote from: 1 on April 12, 2019, 08:20:14 AM
There is another problem with wages: As an example, minimum wage in Massachusetts was $11 per hour last year and is $12 per hour this year. Someone making $11.55 last year (which requires working for 2 years) would only be bumped up to $12 starting in January, not $12.55, meaning that those working longer are not getting more money.
This has always been an issue with a rising Minimum Wage. I remember when I first started working I was making above minimum wage, but when the minimum wage went above what I was making, my raise only bumped up to the new minimum wage.
In everyone's fight for $15 an hour, there's a much larger issue looming. Let's say the minimum wage is now $10 an hour. If the wage immediately bumped up to $15/hour, that's great for everyone working at $10 an hour. But what about those working $11 - $14 an hour? Do they get an equal $5 bump? And if they do, what about everyone working $16 - $19 an hour? You can raise someone making $12/hr to $17/hr without bumping up the guy making $16 an hour already.
It's a tricky slope...one that companies have met with simply doing away with jobs.
Now, to be clear - this doesn't appear to be the issue at hand here...I'm just pointing out the larger issue with a rising minimum wage.
The thing to realize is that those people making $40 per hour are generally worth what they are getting paid to their company or their job wouldn't exist and the people making $10 per hour are NOT all worth what they are getting paid. This means that some make only the $10 per hour because others aren't worth the $10 per hour. It is very tempting in an era of higher minimum wages to automate, keep good employees at lower wages, and eliminate all of the positions for the lower wage workers.
In some industries, some shops unionize and it helps the workers. In other shops in the same industry it hurts them big time. If one solution worked for everything and everybody, the cheddar vs jack argument would have been settled long ago.
I don't see how labor can ever compete with automation. I think of the old days where your computer was a roomful of clerks with slide rules, for example.
My gut reaction is that unionization can't stand in the way of innovation and automation. Although I am all for workers being unionized when their jobs are necessary, when their jobs are modernized and mechanically automated, then jobs are a necessary casualty (I think of toll collectors).
If I were a manager, and a union dug in against automation, I'd do what every basic economics class says to do in that situation: Close up shop, since my expenses exceeded my ability to compete. Wait a bit and reopen.
That all said, if automation really starts to take over, it does make the argument for a guaranteed basic income more and more feasible.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 19, 2019, 02:43:53 PMI probably would have just left the twelfth bag in the cart without scanning it. As long as the final receipt says twelve bags and I have twelve bags, there's not really much to be gained by having the extra bag voided, and it would be obvious I wasn't stealing anything should I be confronted on the matter.
I do recognize that as an option. For me it was simpler to start the transaction over at a different terminal so I could be seen to scan every item I paid for. If I had opted to skip one unit of soup to compensate for the unit that scanned twice, I would have had to think about how to slip it into the bag without looking like I was shoplifting or otherwise triggering (possibly automated) loss prevention measures. I don't have a problem presenting my receipt and purchases for inspection on exit, but if I am summoned from behind my back, I am not going to hear it and will therefore keep on walking, looking more and more like a thief.
I had a similar issue with the security gate at our old main library. (The current library, which opened in June 2018, does not have gates.) The technology was based on magnetic permeability, and was not especially reliable. Often books would fail to demag successfully and would set the gate off; to make matters worse, not all items had magnetic tags, and sometimes items that did were not demagged before being sent out to branches to fill holds (only some branches had security gates). One time I walked out the gate with a book that set it off and got almost all the way to the parking lot (a walk of about half a block) before I saw a strange expression on the face of someone walking in the other direction. He was reacting to the security guard and a (very pregnant) library clerk in full pursuit.
The security gates were far too old to have been fitted with visual indications for ADA accessibility, so I eventually had to finesse the situation by running a sound analyzer on my phone to detect when the gate chimed. This was after I tried the easier approach of eyeballing the clerks behind the desk to see if they reacted to a sound when I walked through the gate; I discovered that they tend to ignore chimes produced by people walking
into the library, only to drop into a sprinter's crouch when a person walks
out.
Quote from: michravera on April 21, 2019, 11:53:49 AMThe thing to realize is that those people making $40 per hour are generally worth what they are getting paid to their company or their job wouldn't exist and the people making $10 per hour are NOT all worth what they are getting paid. This means that some make only the $10 per hour because others aren't worth the $10 per hour. It is very tempting in an era of higher minimum wages to automate, keep good employees at lower wages, and eliminate all of the positions for the lower wage workers.
The stylized justification for a minimum wage is to guarantee workers the ability to make a living by preventing employers from exploiting their monopsony power over unskilled labor. The movement for a higher minimum wage (especially in high-cost states and metropolitan areas) is about the fact that the current federal minimum wage is much further away from being an actual living wage than it was in the late 1960's/early 1970's. It is not really intended to address the fact that a higher wage bill does incentivize employers to transition from more labor-intensive to more capital-intensive ways of producing the same basket of final goods and services.
Wages paid are indeed more likely to reflect an underlying market valuation for, say, the $40/hour crowd than the minimum-wage crowd, simply because there is always more competition for unskilled jobs. The $40/hour folks have typically invested in education and skill development to give themselves extra wage bargaining power.
Moreover, as technology improves and business processes evolve, capital becomes more readily substitutable for labor. The advocates of a higher minimum wage are, of course, correct when they say that higher wages do not necessarily result in higher prices for the consumer, but the movement is so recent that the price data almost inevitably reflects short-term conditions. The effect of capital-for-labor substitution is later seen in jobs that simply vanish.
Quote from: Rothman on April 21, 2019, 12:02:46 PMI don't see how labor can ever compete with automation. I think of the old days where your computer was a roomful of clerks with slide rules, for example.
My gut reaction is that unionization can't stand in the way of innovation and automation. Although I am all for workers being unionized when their jobs are necessary, when their jobs are modernized and mechanically automated, then jobs are a necessary casualty (I think of toll collectors).
I think defiance of automation is a losing position for an union to take, not just because of the underlying economics (the historical evidence suggests that resort to capital-intensive processes generally increases total factor productivity), but also from a dignity-of-labor vantage point. I think that except in certain niche or boutique settings, doing by hand what a machine can do faster and better subtracts something intangible but still valuable from the worker's humanity. A case in point is outsourcing coupon processing to underpaid workers in Mexico to save spending the up-front capital cost of equipment for the same purpose at an US-based office (something that actually used to happen in the 1980's).
Quote from: Rothman on April 21, 2019, 12:02:46 PMThat all said, if automation really starts to take over, it does make the argument for a guaranteed basic income more and more feasible.
We already have the likes of Elon Musk saying that 30% of all current jobs will disappear to automation. This may very well be a net loss (in other words, the jobs that go away will only be partly replaced by new jobs that involve variants of machine tending). I find the concept of UBI interesting, but we in the US have a far stronger pew-renter mentality than Canada and the western European countries, so I would expect a proposal to introduce UBI to collide forcefully with that. In its own way it is very erosive of human dignity to draw one's living from subsidy payments, so I think some version of UBI makes the most sense in a social context that stimulates a sense of productive occupation in recipients.
The strike is over. As it's already 7:21 PM here, stores will be opening tomorrow.
Victory or no?
I was about to say, there really wasn't much of an update that it had me wondering.
Culver's has table service. I think some Hardee's locations have it as well.
As far as the touch screens go, everyone knows I'm a fan of Sheetz. You generally have a lot of options to customize your order -- although one I wish they had, but don't, is the option to NOT have your sandwich bun toasted. A toasted bun seems to be the default these days, and I'm not a fan. If Sheetz had in-person ordering, one could make that request. (Another gripe about Sheetz is that prices aren't shown until you've already placed your order, and if you think something is too expensive, you have to go back and cancel that item and then select something else and then see how much it's going to be.)
I'm not at Sheetz often enough to become familiar with their screen layout, so it has typically changed every time I'm there and I have to look over the screen to find what I want. But at most other fast-food places, I tend to already know what I want so it's faster to go to the counter and tell them I want a Baconator combo with mustard instead of mayo, instead of trying to find it on the Wendy's screen and then trying to customize it to get that nasty Satan semen off of it.
Back to the original topic, a childhood friend has moved up that way and was out on strike in this work stoppage. She wanted some bread, she prefers her store brand, but is no longer going to buy it because she said Gold Medal crossed the picket line, so she was going to send her husband to another store to get that store's house brand, until she found out that Gold Medal makes their bread too.
This just in: Stop & Shop says the strike is over
https://patch.com/connecticut/milford/stop-shop-strike-ends-heres-what-you-need-know
Pending ratification from 5 unions, including 371, the union I was in for roughly 5 years. :)
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 21, 2019, 08:56:32 AM
.... I have noticed the McDonald's closest to home is undergoing heavy renovation right now and is closed except for the drive-thru (which I won't use unless I only want a drink). They're getting rid of the longstanding familiar roofline for a modern-looking exterior. Don't know if they'll implement the touchscreen ordering inside.
Driving past there yesterday we noticed the McDonald's mentioned above has reopened and does indeed have the touchscreen ordering–we could see a couple of customers standing there staring at them. Guess this is becoming their new business model.
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 22, 2019, 09:02:29 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 21, 2019, 08:56:32 AM
.... I have noticed the McDonald's closest to home is undergoing heavy renovation right now and is closed except for the drive-thru (which I won't use unless I only want a drink). They're getting rid of the longstanding familiar roofline for a modern-looking exterior. Don't know if they'll implement the touchscreen ordering inside.
Driving past there yesterday we noticed the McDonald's mentioned above has reopened and does indeed have the touchscreen ordering–we could see a couple of customers standing there staring at them. Guess this is becoming their new business model.
When they first get them, they will usually have someone close by to coach you on how to use them.
Congratulations on the end of the strike 1. I hope this means everything will get better from here on...til the next contract ratification.
Quote from: vdeane on April 20, 2019, 09:58:59 PM
Incidentally, why someone would want table service at a McDonalds is beyond me.
Why someone would rather haul their own food to the table than have a paid employee do it for them is beyond me. Why someone would rather go up to the front counter to ask for something extra than have a paid employee walking the floor is beyond me. And, while we're at it, why someone would rather throw their own trash away than have a paid employee bus their table is beyond me.
Fast food feels an awful lot like a cafeteria and not so much like a restaurant. Maybe McDonald's is trying to flip that around a little bit.
Quote from: hbelkins on April 21, 2019, 09:13:20 PM
Culver's has table service. I think some Hardee's locations have it as well.
And I've appreciated that little difference whenever I've eaten at one of those. There have also been times we've eaten at a fast food joint that
doesn't typically bring your food to you, walk the floor, etc–Wendy's, for example–but someone carried our food out to us anyway. That goes a long way to making me a happy customer, and you can bet it makes me more likely to come back another day.
Quote from: kphoger on April 22, 2019, 02:57:52 PM
Quote from: vdeane on April 20, 2019, 09:58:59 PM
Incidentally, why someone would want table service at a McDonalds is beyond me.
Why someone would rather haul their own food to the table than have a paid employee do it for them is beyond me. Why someone would rather go up to the front counter to ask for something extra than have a paid employee walking the floor is beyond me. And, while we're at it, why someone would rather throw their own trash away than have a paid employee bus their table is beyond me.
Maybe I'm a little less sociable than most, in addition to often being in more of hurry than most, but sometimes I'm just not in the mood for interaction with employees and prefer to do it myself. With regards to trash, it just feels wrong to me to leave my mess and walk away. I would probably get this nagging feeling that I was forgetting something. In short, I like to minimize dependence where possible.
Quote from: webny99 on April 22, 2019, 03:14:24 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 22, 2019, 02:57:52 PM
Quote from: vdeane on April 20, 2019, 09:58:59 PM
Incidentally, why someone would want table service at a McDonalds is beyond me.
Why someone would rather haul their own food to the table than have a paid employee do it for them is beyond me. Why someone would rather go up to the front counter to ask for something extra than have a paid employee walking the floor is beyond me. And, while we're at it, why someone would rather throw their own trash away than have a paid employee bus their table is beyond me.
Maybe I'm a little less sociable than most, in addition to often being in more of hurry than most, but sometimes I'm just not in the mood for interaction with employees and prefer to do it myself. With regards to trash, it just feels wrong to me to leave my mess and walk away. I would probably get this nagging feeling that I was forgetting something. In short, I like to minimize dependence where possible.
So is fast food the only kind of restaurant you go to, then?
Quote from: kphoger on April 22, 2019, 03:17:33 PM
So is fast food the only kind of restaurant you go to, then?
99 percent of the time, I avoid fast food. I drove through a McDonald's a few weeks ago for a small fry. When I got to the window, they had me for something totally different, so I left.
Last week, I went to the McDonald's at Walmart for a small fry only to have everyone walk away when I approached the counter. So I left.
I suppose I should thank them for keeping me on my diet.
Quote from: kphoger on April 22, 2019, 03:17:33 PM
So is fast food the only kind of restaurant you go to, then?
Actually, for the most part, yes. I don't eat out - or maybe "eat
in"- is the better term - very much, but I find full service restaurants rather time consuming and expensive. I've been to A&W a number times and I kind of like their old school - but very efficient - way of doing it: pick a table and call them with your order when you're ready.
In other news, I think we're off topic.
Quote from: US71 on April 22, 2019, 03:33:07 PM
Last week, I went to the McDonald's at Walmart for a small fry only to have everyone walk away when I approached the counter. So I left.
Was it the employees that walked away, or the other customers? :-D
Or both?
Quote from: webny99 on April 22, 2019, 03:34:28 PM
In other news, I think we're off topic.
I wonder if that's the only thing keeping the whole thread from getting locked.
I've heard nothing new about the five unions involved. I will assume they ratified the new deal. :)
Quote from: KEVIN_224 on April 22, 2019, 08:55:10 PM
I've heard nothing new about the five unions involved. I will assume they ratified the new deal. :)
My union will be ratifying it on Wednesday.
Quote from: kphoger on April 22, 2019, 02:57:52 PM
Quote from: vdeane on April 20, 2019, 09:58:59 PM
Incidentally, why someone would want table service at a McDonalds is beyond me.
Why someone would rather haul their own food to the table than have a paid employee do it for them is beyond me. Why someone would rather go up to the front counter to ask for something extra than have a paid employee walking the floor is beyond me. And, while we're at it, why someone would rather throw their own trash away than have a paid employee bus their table is beyond me.
Fast food feels an awful lot like a cafeteria and not so much like a restaurant. Maybe McDonald's is trying to flip that around a little bit.
Quote from: hbelkins on April 21, 2019, 09:13:20 PM
Culver's has table service. I think some Hardee's locations have it as well.
And I've appreciated that little difference whenever I've eaten at one of those. There have also been times we've eaten at a fast food joint that doesn't typically bring your food to you, walk the floor, etc–Wendy's, for example–but someone carried our food out to us anyway. That goes a long way to making me a happy customer, and you can bet it makes me more likely to come back another day.
Honestly, I find eating at a sit-down restaurant to be very awkward when dining on my own - and I'm not usually with someone when I'm traveling (and if I am, it's almost certainly for work). Unless I'm with family or at a roadmeet, I'm pretty much exclusively fast food or fast casual. Plus, when I'm on the road and I don't want lunch to take too long. Half an hour max, and even then if I'm somewhere good like Five Guys or Panera Bread; otherwise, keep it to 10 minutes or so.
Plus, how does ketchup and whatnot work now? Before, we could fill the dispenser cups with however much we needed. Is it rationed now, and/or using the crummy plastic packages?
When you're with someone, it's a social event and you fill the time waiting for them to come take your order/waiting for the food to come/waiting for the check to come/waiting for them to come back with your card or change enjoying the company of the other person. If you're by yourself, that's just dead time.
I don't mind them bringing the food to me, but waiting near the counter and picking it up is a lot more efficient, because you don't have to wait for them to wander around and come find where you're sitting, potentially get stopped by another customer, etc. Also, if there's a problem with the order, or you need a condiment that's being held hostage behind the counter in the name of food cost, you can ask immediately and not have to wait for the guy to ferry your request back to the counter and come back.
One thing that used to irritate me about Chick-Fil-A is when they'd have the guy walking the floor asking how everything tasted, etc. It tastes like Chick-Fil-A, dude, what, did you think I'd bite into it and accuse you of swapping it out for Five Guys or something? Leave me alone; if there's a problem, I'll come tell you about it.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 23, 2019, 03:48:59 AM
One thing that used to irritate me about Chick-Fil-A is when they'd have the guy walking the floor asking how everything tasted, etc. It tastes like Chick-Fil-A, dude, what, did you think I'd bite into it and accuse you of swapping it out for Five Guys or something? Leave me alone; if there's a problem, I'll come tell you about it.
Yeah, when I get a sense that someone is fishing for compliments, it makes me feel like
not complimenting them, regardless of what the food actually tastes like.
Quote from: webny99 on April 23, 2019, 08:43:17 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 23, 2019, 03:48:59 AM
One thing that used to irritate me about Chick-Fil-A is when they'd have the guy walking the floor asking how everything tasted, etc. It tastes like Chick-Fil-A, dude, what, did you think I'd bite into it and accuse you of swapping it out for Five Guys or something? Leave me alone; if there's a problem, I'll come tell you about it.
Yeah, when I get a sense that someone is fishing for compliments, it makes me feel like not complimenting them, regardless of what the food actually tastes like.
Latest business trend is to solicit for feedback, and punish employers if that feedback is below totally excellent. Feedback part makes some sense, punishment as the sole corrective action less so; but combined they add up to something totally meaningless.
If I have reached my destination for the evening, I don't mind eating alone in a sit-down location. Sometimes I'll go to a Cracker Barrel, Golden Corral, Bob Evans, etc., to eat if it's near my room.
If I'm getting fast food, I will nearly always get it to go and take it back to my room.
During the day, I don't like stopping my trip to eat, so I won't do the sit-down thing. I'll either drive through or get it to go, and eat while I'm on the road. An exception was when I tried Eat N'Park a couple of years ago, as I was pretty much ahead of my schedule.
I used to hate eating alone, but then I discovered I could just bring a book to read.
Quote from: kalvado on April 23, 2019, 08:52:43 AM
Quote from: webny99 on April 23, 2019, 08:43:17 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 23, 2019, 03:48:59 AM
One thing that used to irritate me about Chick-Fil-A is when they'd have the guy walking the floor asking how everything tasted, etc. It tastes like Chick-Fil-A, dude, what, did you think I'd bite into it and accuse you of swapping it out for Five Guys or something? Leave me alone; if there's a problem, I'll come tell you about it.
Yeah, when I get a sense that someone is fishing for compliments, it makes me feel like not complimenting them, regardless of what the food actually tastes like.
Latest business trend is to solicit for feedback, and punish employers if that feedback is below totally excellent. Feedback part makes some sense, punishment as the sole corrective action less so; but combined they add up to something totally meaningless.
I remember that from my Burger King days. There was a survey people could take and rate various aspects of the store from one to five stars. Five stars was considered good, four was "the zone of defection" (i.e. we risked losing them forever to the uncivilized brutes across the street calling themselves McDonalds), and three or below they might as well have said they were so disgusted that they planned on coming by and burning the store down later.
This never made any sense to me as I felt, as a lay consumer, that the appropriate way to answer such a question was to start with a 3 and then measure any sort of notable deviation from average. To get a 5 then, would mean that they had performed absolutely top tier service, made a burger that looked just like the one on the menu board, found my missing cat from when I was 15, etc.
Fortunately my store never really cared about the surveys too much (we were more interested in metrics like drive thru time and labor percentage).
Later, I worked for a casino that did 1-10 ratings on employee evaluations...and completely screwed it up by insisting that the grand total of all evaluations follow a bell curve, meaning most people would receive 5s, the second-most people would receive 4s and 6s, etc. Of course, most employees interpreted "5/10" as meaning "you are 50% of perfect", meaning morale went firmly into the toilet and settled somewhere around the vicinity of the U-bend.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 23, 2019, 01:11:32 PM
I remember that from my Burger King days. There was a survey people could take and rate various aspects of the store from one to five stars. Five stars was considered good, four was "the zone of defection" (i.e. we risked losing them forever to the uncivilized brutes across the street calling themselves McDonalds), and three or below they might as well have said they were so disgusted that they planned on coming by and burning the store down later.
This never made any sense to me as I felt, as a lay consumer, that the appropriate way to answer such a question was to start with a 3 and then measure any sort of notable deviation from average. To get a 5 then, would mean that they had performed absolutely top tier service, made a burger that looked just like the one on the menu board, found my missing cat from when I was 15, etc.
Same. Whenever I rate somehting, I always use a system like the following
1 - horrible
2 - bad
3 - OK
4 - good
5 - absolute perfection
I wouldn't be surprised if I drag down averages that way. I don't give out 5/5 very often.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 23, 2019, 03:48:59 AM
I don't mind them bringing the food to me, but waiting near the counter and picking it up is a lot more efficient
It sucks, though, to have to stand around at the counter by yourself while everyone else in your party is sitting back at the table having a good old time without you.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 23, 2019, 03:48:59 AM
or you need a condiment that's being held hostage behind the counter in the name of food cost
This is my biggest gripe about fast food, and it's something that will stop me from ever coming back. If a restaurant wants to charge me extra for a condiment, then I'm done with them. The Wendy's closest to my work is like this. By golly, I shouldn't have to pay extra for sour cream to go along with a baked potato. I used to have decent luck paying, taking my food to the table, then going back up to the counter a couple of minutes later to ask for the condiment, but eventually they started saying "I'd have to ring it up as a separate sale." Well, OK, but I hope you realize you just lost yourself a customer over 25 cents.
Quote from: kphoger on April 23, 2019, 02:06:23 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 23, 2019, 03:48:59 AM
or you need a condiment that's being held hostage behind the counter in the name of food cost
This is my biggest gripe about fast food, and it's something that will stop me from ever coming back. If a restaurant wants to charge me extra for a condiment, then I'm done with them. The Wendy's closest to my work is like this. By golly, I shouldn't have to pay extra for sour cream to go along with a baked potato. I used to have decent luck paying, taking my food to the table, then going back up to the counter a couple of minutes later to ask for the condiment, but eventually they started saying "I'd have to ring it up as a separate sale." Well, OK, but I hope you realize you just lost yourself a customer over 25 cents.
I think he was talking about free condiments that they keep behind the counter, to keep greedy customers from taking too much. I've noticed this at a few McDonald's locations lately; they used to have ketchup dispensers over by the drinks and napkins, but now the ketchup is only in packets behind the counter (though still free). This is only funny because whenever I've asked for ketchup, they've given me nearly double the amount of ketchup I actually need. Which defeats the purpose.
Quote from: kphoger on April 23, 2019, 02:06:23 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 23, 2019, 03:48:59 AM
I don't mind them bringing the food to me, but waiting near the counter and picking it up is a lot more efficient
It sucks, though, to have to stand around at the counter by yourself while everyone else in your party is sitting back at the table having a good old time without you.
never split the partyI don't use fast food restaurants as a social venue. If I am with a large group of people, we tend to do a sit-down restaurant. Or, more rarely, we are traveling together and making a fast-food stop before we go on. In the latter case, several of us are waiting for orders, since it's easier for each group that's paying together to end up on one ticket.
Most frequently, though, we stay home and order delivery on Grubhub/Doordash.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 23, 2019, 03:48:59 AM
or you need a condiment that's being held hostage behind the counter in the name of food cost
QuoteThis is my biggest gripe about fast food, and it's something that will stop me from ever coming back. If a restaurant wants to charge me extra for a condiment, then I'm done with them. The Wendy's closest to my work is like this. By golly, I shouldn't have to pay extra for sour cream to go along with a baked potato. I used to have decent luck paying, taking my food to the table, then going back up to the counter a couple of minutes later to ask for the condiment, but eventually they started saying "I'd have to ring it up as a separate sale." Well, OK, but I hope you realize you just lost yourself a customer over 25 cents.
The person running the register doesn't realize and doesn't care. The fewer the customers there are, the less work they have to do. If the store closes, on to the next minimum-wage job; they're all interchangeable.
J. Edbart Hortencio Combwater VIII, Senior Adjutant Vice-Chancellor of Finance for Wendy's might, but you're just a line on a spreadsheet to him. No way that will ever get connected to his "revenue enhancement" policy of charging for sour cream.
So 21st century capitalism goes.
When I am on the road, I generally eat two sit-down meals and snack instead of eating lunch. I prefer a sit-down breakfast because coffee is supplied
ad libitum (which is important if it is weak enough at a given location that it requires multiple cups for an adequate caffeine hit) and the breakfast menu is more varied, with egg dishes that include vegetables. I prefer a sit-down restaurant for dinner because, again, the menu is more varied with options that include vegetables that are fresh and of reasonably high nutritional content. The typical breakfast at McDonald's is all cereal and meat, and although Burger King offers a Caesar salad as greenwash, the mesclun is based on iceberg lettuce with approximately the same nutritional value as tap water. Fast-food establishments are also uniformly dry, and I occasionally like a glass of beer with my dinner.
On the road it is already difficult to comply with my basic nutrition rules (at least five servings from three different vegetables, at least 100% of the fiber RDA every day), and fast food would make the situation worse.
I have had people tell me that they have difficulty obtaining a table and service at sit-down restaurants when travelling alone. I have not had this trouble, but I am generally willing to eat at the bar if the establishment has a liquor license and there are people waiting for tables. I generally do take a book with me to read when I am dining alone. The main difficulty I have faced--thankfully, not often--is walking into an establishment while it is still open but after the kitchen has closed. This is very common in Wisconsin (I suspect because state law allows restaurants with liquor licenses to stay open to continue serving alcohol alone after food preparation ends), but I have seen it in Missouri, and once in Twentynine Palms, California, I stepped into a Pizza Hut about an hour before closing when they were absolutely determined to close early and were equally determined not to tell me so, forcing me to wait fifteen minutes to get the message. I believe any restaurant that stays open to serve alcohol only should be required to post its food service hours so that anyone looking to dine can move right along instead of waiting abortively to submit a food order.
Quote from: kphoger on April 23, 2019, 02:06:23 PMIt sucks, though, to have to stand around at the counter by yourself while everyone else in your party is sitting back at the table having a good old time without you.
When I get fast food to take away, I go in to order (drive-thrus don't work for deaf people) and then have to deal with the fact that there is never a place for a person to stand and wait that is both out of the way and within line of sight to the pickup counter. I have also had clerks assume that counter ordering is invariably for eating in even if I have "To go, please" as the first words of the order.
Quote from: kphoger on April 23, 2019, 02:06:23 PMThis is my biggest gripe about fast food, and it's something that will stop me from ever coming back. If a restaurant wants to charge me extra for a condiment, then I'm done with them. The Wendy's closest to my work is like this. By golly, I shouldn't have to pay extra for sour cream to go along with a baked potato. I used to have decent luck paying, taking my food to the table, then going back up to the counter a couple of minutes later to ask for the condiment, but eventually they started saying "I'd have to ring it up as a separate sale." Well, OK, but I hope you realize you just lost yourself a customer over 25 cents.
Margins in this sector are so narrow I don't mind paying for plus-one condiments or even specifying that a takeaway order is not to include plastic utensils (since we invariably eat with actual silverware at home). But I do insist that if a meal is to be eaten with condiments (e.g., sour cream with taco salad), then the first unit of that condiment be supplied free of charge.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 23, 2019, 02:32:45 PMThe person running the register doesn't realize and doesn't care. The fewer the customers there are, the less work they have to do. If the store closes, on to the next minimum-wage job; they're all interchangeable.
J. Edbart Hortencio Combwater VIII, Senior Adjutant Vice-Chancellor of Finance for Wendy's might, but you're just a line on a spreadsheet to him. No way that will ever get connected to his "revenue enhancement" policy of charging for sour cream.
So 21st century capitalism goes.
It's not just the private sector--this happens in the public sector too. The ruling paradigm is a cost recovery pyramid where services used by the majority are offered free or at very low cost (often involving a high degree of subsidy) while services used by a minority are often not subsidized at all or are even run to generate an operating profit. Our library did this about a year ago with interlibrary loan; it used to be free (as it still is at most American public libraries), but now we charge $3 a book. The initial estimate was that ILL requests would fall by about one-third but the actual drop has been more like half.
Quote from: J N Winkler on April 23, 2019, 02:47:13 PM
I have also had clerks assume that counter ordering is invariably for eating in even if I have "To go, please" as the first words of the order.
This may not so much be an assumption of the clerk, but rather forgetfulness. Our register system was set up so that "For Here/To Go" was the
last thing input (those buttons served as the total button that completed the order). Or the person putting the order together just misreads the ticket.
In any case, converting a For Here order to To Go is trivial enough. Some establishments (e.g. Five Guys) have even entirely done away with For Here orders and default to putting everything in a paper bag, which one can empty out and eat in or take wherever.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 23, 2019, 02:32:45 PM
I don't use fast food restaurants as a social venue. If I am with a large group of people, we tend to do a sit-down restaurant. Or, more rarely, we are traveling together and making a fast-food stop before we go on. In the latter case, several of us are waiting for orders, since it's easier for each group that's paying together to end up on one ticket.
All well and good for you, I suppose. But I have a family of five, and it stinks to finally get out of the car on a road trip and still not be able to sit across the table from my wife and kids yet because I'm stuck waiting for my food up by the counter.
When I'm traveling with a larger group, it's not really all that much better for three people to be off away from a group of twelve than one person to be off away from a group of four.
Quote from: J N Winkler on April 23, 2019, 02:47:13 PM
When I am on the road, I generally eat two sit-down meals and snack instead of eating lunch.
When I'm on the road, lunch is the meal I'm
most likely to go inside and eat. Our family typically packs some breakfast food to eat in the car an hour or so into the drive (if departing early enough, we'll even leave the kids in pajamas and let them change at the first pit stop). For supper, we're generally eager to finally get to our destination so the drive-through looks pretty appealing. But we use the lunchtime stop to let everyone stretch their legs, get refreshed from hours on the road, basically rejuvenate for the next half of the trip.
I'm one of those heretics who doesn't eat ketchup on fries. My luck is usually such that even if I don't ask, they'll put enough ketchup packets in with my food to satisfy a normal ketchup-eater for two weeks.
However, they don't include salt as a matter of routine. And if you ask for salt, you're lucky to get a couple of packets.
Quote from: hbelkins on April 23, 2019, 04:15:40 PM
I'm one of those heretics who doesn't eat ketchup on fries.
Heretics unite!
I don't like ketchup on almost anything.
Quote from: hbelkins on April 23, 2019, 04:15:40 PM
I'm one of those heretics who doesn't eat ketchup on fries. My luck is usually such that even if I don't ask, they'll put enough ketchup packets in with my food to satisfy a normal ketchup-eater for two weeks.
However, they don't include salt as a matter of routine. And if you ask for salt, you're lucky to get a couple of packets.
Ketchup apostate here. I used to eat it on fries and such when I was younger, but I rarely do anymore. Lost the taste for it at some point in my 20s. Still, I greatly prefer it over mustard. Even mayo is well above mustard for me.
Honey is the best for fries.
At Arby's, though, a combination of Horsey sauce and Arby's sauce is the bomb.
There is an awful lot of ketchup heresy in this thread. :eyebrow:
SMITE THE TOMATO UNBELIEVERS
:) :-D
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on April 23, 2019, 04:57:25 PM
There is an awful lot of ketchup heresy in this thread. :eyebrow:
SMITE THE TOMATO UNBELIEVERS
:) :-D
I love barbecue sauce, which has tomato in it. So there.
Quote from: kphoger on April 23, 2019, 05:00:10 PM
I love barbecue sauce, which has tomato in it. So there.
Depends on the type of BBQ sauce–not all formulations have tomato/ketchup as an ingredient.
Quote from: kphoger on April 23, 2019, 05:00:10 PM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on April 23, 2019, 04:57:25 PM
There is an awful lot of ketchup heresy in this thread. :eyebrow:
SMITE THE TOMATO UNBELIEVERS
:) :-D
I love barbecue sauce, which has tomato in it. So there.
Same. Oddly, I've never tried fries with it. I usually just eat them plain.
Not to spoil the condiment party...but we've gone way off topic here.
As it related to the recent strike:
The five United Food and Commercial Workers (UFCW) locals–Local 328, Providence, RI; Local 919, Farmington, CT; Local 1459, Springfield, MA; Local 1445, Dedham, MA and Local 371, Westport, CT –said they would separately present the proposed deals to their members for a vote, but union leaders said they were recommending that workers approve them.
Quote from: Takumi on April 23, 2019, 05:28:33 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 23, 2019, 05:00:10 PM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on April 23, 2019, 04:57:25 PM
There is an awful lot of ketchup heresy in this thread. :eyebrow:
SMITE THE TOMATO UNBELIEVERS
:) :-D
I love barbecue sauce, which has tomato in it. So there.
Same. Oddly, I've never tried fries with it. I usually just eat them plain.
I love to dip fries in bbq sauce. It's way better than ketchup IMO. I haven't used ketchup for them in years, except for the rare occurance that I don't have bbq sauce available. In that case, ketchup suffices.
I rarely eat ketchup anymore after discovering ranch dressing.
Quote from: ce929wax on April 23, 2019, 11:37:06 PM
I rarely eat ketchup anymore after discovering ranch dressing.
You sound like my daughter.
Quote from: kalvado on April 23, 2019, 08:52:43 AM
Latest business trend is to solicit for feedback, and punish employers if that feedback is below totally excellent.
Sounds great! Unless you meant employees.
Quote from: NE2 on April 24, 2019, 01:26:47 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 23, 2019, 08:52:43 AM
Latest business trend is to solicit for feedback, and punish employers if that feedback is below totally excellent.
Sounds great! Unless you meant employees.
It's possible he meant the store manager is punished by corporate.
Quote from: kphoger on April 23, 2019, 04:53:23 PM
Honey is the best for fries.
At Arby's, though, a combination of Horsey sauce and Arby's sauce is the bomb.
Incorrect. Sour cream is, followed by ranch dressing, BBQ sauce, and honey mustard sauce.
Quote from: inkyatari on April 24, 2019, 08:58:43 AM
Quote from: ce929wax on April 23, 2019, 11:37:06 PM
I rarely eat ketchup anymore after discovering ranch dressing.
You sound like my daughter.
Literally me for the past 10 years. You can't beat ranch dressing.
Quote from: Takumi on April 23, 2019, 04:49:01 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on April 23, 2019, 04:15:40 PM
I'm one of those heretics who doesn't eat ketchup on fries. My luck is usually such that even if I don't ask, they'll put enough ketchup packets in with my food to satisfy a normal ketchup-eater for two weeks.
However, they don't include salt as a matter of routine. And if you ask for salt, you're lucky to get a couple of packets.
Ketchup apostate here. I used to eat it on fries and such when I was younger, but I rarely do anymore. Lost the taste for it at some point in my 20s. Still, I greatly prefer it over mustard. Even mayo is well above mustard for me.
Quote from: kphoger on April 23, 2019, 04:25:22 PM
Heretics unite!
I don't like ketchup on almost anything.
I'll put ketchup on fries about once or twice a year; I'll literally try anything else (short of mayo) as a fry condiment.
Quote from: formulanone on April 25, 2019, 08:37:42 AM
I'll put ketchup on fries about once or twice a year; I'll literally try anything else (short of mayo) as a fry condiment.
Backin Jr. High school I wondered.. "We put ketchup on hamburgers. We put mustard on hamburgers. Why don't we put mustard on french fries?" so I tried it, and loved it. I got at least one other student doing it.
On the rare occasion I order fries, I'll either put BBQ sauce on them, or a mixture of mustard, ketchup and mayo.
Quote from: inkyatari on April 25, 2019, 09:37:08 AM
Quote from: formulanone on April 25, 2019, 08:37:42 AM
I'll put ketchup on fries about once or twice a year; I'll literally try anything else (short of mayo) as a fry condiment.
Backin Jr. High school I wondered.. "We put ketchup on hamburgers. We put mustard on hamburgers. Why don't we put mustard on french fries?" so I tried it, and loved it. I got at least one other student doing it.
On the rare occasion I order fries, I'll either put BBQ sauce on them, or a mixture of mustard, ketchup and mayo.
BBQ sauce; YES!
Quote from: J N Winkler on April 21, 2019, 03:46:58 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 19, 2019, 02:43:53 PMI probably would have just left the twelfth bag in the cart without scanning it. As long as the final receipt says twelve bags and I have twelve bags, there's not really much to be gained by having the extra bag voided, and it would be obvious I wasn't stealing anything should I be confronted on the matter.
I do recognize that as an option. For me it was simpler to start the transaction over at a different terminal so I could be seen to scan every item I paid for. If I had opted to skip one unit of soup to compensate for the unit that scanned twice, I would have had to think about how to slip it into the bag without looking like I was shoplifting or otherwise triggering (possibly automated) loss prevention measures. I don't have a problem presenting my receipt and purchases for inspection on exit, but if I am summoned from behind my back, I am not going to hear it and will therefore keep on walking, looking more and more like a thief.
I had a similar issue with the security gate at our old main library. (The current library, which opened in June 2018, does not have gates.) The technology was based on magnetic permeability, and was not especially reliable. Often books would fail to demag successfully and would set the gate off; to make matters worse, not all items had magnetic tags, and sometimes items that did were not demagged before being sent out to branches to fill holds (only some branches had security gates). One time I walked out the gate with a book that set it off and got almost all the way to the parking lot (a walk of about half a block) before I saw a strange expression on the face of someone walking in the other direction. He was reacting to the security guard and a (very pregnant) library clerk in full pursuit.
The security gates were far too old to have been fitted with visual indications for ADA accessibility, so I eventually had to finesse the situation by running a sound analyzer on my phone to detect when the gate chimed. This was after I tried the easier approach of eyeballing the clerks behind the desk to see if they reacted to a sound when I walked through the gate; I discovered that they tend to ignore chimes produced by people walking into the library, only to drop into a sprinter's crouch when a person walks out.
Quote from: michravera on April 21, 2019, 11:53:49 AMThe thing to realize is that those people making $40 per hour are generally worth what they are getting paid to their company or their job wouldn't exist and the people making $10 per hour are NOT all worth what they are getting paid. This means that some make only the $10 per hour because others aren't worth the $10 per hour. It is very tempting in an era of higher minimum wages to automate, keep good employees at lower wages, and eliminate all of the positions for the lower wage workers.
The stylized justification for a minimum wage is to guarantee workers the ability to make a living by preventing employers from exploiting their monopsony power over unskilled labor. The movement for a higher minimum wage (especially in high-cost states and metropolitan areas) is about the fact that the current federal minimum wage is much further away from being an actual living wage than it was in the late 1960's/early 1970's. It is not really intended to address the fact that a higher wage bill does incentivize employers to transition from more labor-intensive to more capital-intensive ways of producing the same basket of final goods and services.
Wages paid are indeed more likely to reflect an underlying market valuation for, say, the $40/hour crowd than the minimum-wage crowd, simply because there is always more competition for unskilled jobs. The $40/hour folks have typically invested in education and skill development to give themselves extra wage bargaining power.
Moreover, as technology improves and business processes evolve, capital becomes more readily substitutable for labor. The advocates of a higher minimum wage are, of course, correct when they say that higher wages do not necessarily result in higher prices for the consumer, but the movement is so recent that the price data almost inevitably reflects short-term conditions. The effect of capital-for-labor substitution is later seen in jobs that simply vanish.
Quote from: Rothman on April 21, 2019, 12:02:46 PMI don't see how labor can ever compete with automation. I think of the old days where your computer was a roomful of clerks with slide rules, for example.
My gut reaction is that unionization can't stand in the way of innovation and automation. Although I am all for workers being unionized when their jobs are necessary, when their jobs are modernized and mechanically automated, then jobs are a necessary casualty (I think of toll collectors).
I think defiance of automation is a losing position for an union to take, not just because of the underlying economics (the historical evidence suggests that resort to capital-intensive processes generally increases total factor productivity), but also from a dignity-of-labor vantage point. I think that except in certain niche or boutique settings, doing by hand what a machine can do faster and better subtracts something intangible but still valuable from the worker's humanity. A case in point is outsourcing coupon processing to underpaid workers in Mexico to save spending the up-front capital cost of equipment for the same purpose at an US-based office (something that actually used to happen in the 1980's).
Quote from: Rothman on April 21, 2019, 12:02:46 PMThat all said, if automation really starts to take over, it does make the argument for a guaranteed basic income more and more feasible.
We already have the likes of Elon Musk saying that 30% of all current jobs will disappear to automation. This may very well be a net loss (in other words, the jobs that go away will only be partly replaced by new jobs that involve variants of machine tending). I find the concept of UBI interesting, but we in the US have a far stronger pew-renter mentality than Canada and the western European countries, so I would expect a proposal to introduce UBI to collide forcefully with that. In its own way it is very erosive of human dignity to draw one's living from subsidy payments, so I think some version of UBI makes the most sense in a social context that stimulates a sense of productive occupation in recipients.
I am fond of quoting Ronald Reagan the 40th US President "The increased minimum wage has all but eliminated theater ushers. I can absolutely assure you that this is not because theater goers enjoy finding their way to their seats in the dark."
The minimum wage has never been a living wage in my lifetime. That is to say that one couldn't support a family on it. It is doubtful that one could have ever supported one's self on it working only 40 hours per week. The minimum wage when I got my first "Adult" job in 1978 was $2.90 per hour (just up from $2.65). Working a 40-hour week this would have made you about $500 per month before taxes (CASDI and FICA grabbed about 8% of that leaving you more like $425 with some minimal income tax withholding). At that time apartments in decent areas of Sacramento (not known as the most expensive place to live at the time) were just under $250 per month. Most places wouldn't rent to you unless you could show 3 times the rent in take home pay. But, let's say that they would rent to you. That left you $175 to eat and move. They stopped airing the "change back from your dollar" ads in about 1974 or 5 but let's say that you could eat at McD's 3 times a day for under a dollar (which you couldn't then), that would have cost you $90 (it would have been closer to $200 which puts you over budget already). When you could find gas, it was less than $1/gallon. So, as long as you had only a 20 mile round trip commute to work, you could run your already paid for PoS car that never needed repair for $30-50 per month.
4 sessions of roller skating, 8 daytime movie tickets and 12-pack would run you about $50. Could you get by? Not without a roommate or two and usually a second part time job!
Looks like Panera Bread is also moving to phase out cashiers. I stopped at one for lunch in NH off I-95, and the only employee outside of the kitchen in the entire store was the person assigned to direct people to the kiosks. They didn't even have the people who usually roam the floor and might pick up your stuff if you happen to leave when they're near your table.
Quote from: vdeane on May 03, 2019, 09:39:38 PM
Looks like Panera Bread is also moving to phase out cashiers. I stopped at one for lunch in NH off I-95, and the only employee outside of the kitchen in the entire store was the person assigned to direct people to the kiosks. They didn't even have the people who usually roam the floor and might pick up your stuff if you happen to leave when they're near your table.
So far, mine hasn't. Maybe I need to grab lunch when I finish my doctor's appointment?
It might be a New Hampshire thing. Or that location. It was on I-95 just across the border, so it probably caters to long-distance travelers and people from MA looking for tax-free shopping. When I was there, it was the most empty Panera I have ever seen. There were only a couple other people there, around 11:30-noon on a Friday.