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National Boards => General Highway Talk => Topic started by: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 07:08:52 PM

Title: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 07:08:52 PM
There's a share the road sign here (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.1009081,-77.0129014,3a,15y,246.76h,86.99t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6VMaM0mtJprZX_aDoYJlAA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) I wish there was a sidewalk and a bike lane so they could remove that.

This (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.3892455,-76.9474097,3a,75y,186.34h,86.37t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s-qYeLp565bt_GwTnAEDHNg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D-qYeLp565bt_GwTnAEDHNg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D290.1139%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656) has no cable barrier so therefore this is not really a freeway. The speed limit is not even 65 or 70.

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.406575,-76.9285779,3a,75y,299h,85.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdl6YewlOzVkt9LkRcVcwNA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.406575,-76.9285779,3a,75y,210.94h,76.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdl6YewlOzVkt9LkRcVcwNA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

You have a side street and an extremely small median as well.

Wonder why they have a side street here (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.6799184,-83.0290747,3a,75y,45.39h,85.49t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sY43bUuQT_UntzxdaeCkAaw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)!
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: silverback1065 on July 22, 2021, 07:15:36 PM
There are several interstates that lack cable barriers.
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 07:17:02 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on July 22, 2021, 07:15:36 PM
There are several interstates that lack cable barriers.
If the median is large enough then it's usually not a big deal.

Example (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.1638148,-77.3604448,3a,78.7y,290.86h,92.26t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s2Kx2hDN2mD0XO0AuFz1Hlg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D2Kx2hDN2mD0XO0AuFz1Hlg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D39.29193%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656)
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: SkyPesos on July 22, 2021, 07:18:14 PM
A definition of a freeway is simply a fully controlled access highway. Nothing about which size the median is, and what the median is made of.

So for some real examples in this thread, something that Google maps marks as a freeway, but you find an at grade interchange in that freeway section, could qualify.
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 07:21:16 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 22, 2021, 07:18:14 PM
A definition of a freeway is simply a fully controlled access highway. Nothing about which size the median is, and what the median is made of.

So for some real examples in this thread, something that Google maps marks as a freeway, but you find an at grade interchange in that freeway section, could qualify.
See OpenStreetMaps which lists a lot of major arterials as a freeway like here (https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/35.39246/-78.00549), and here (https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/37.0342/-76.0697).
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: sprjus4 on July 22, 2021, 07:41:10 PM
^ The Goldsboro example... I'd say the original bypass is enough to be called a freeway. It has a couple RIROs, but they never break the median. More like a substandard off and on ramp than anything.

As for the CBBT... it could technically be considered a freeway, but I can see where it wouldn't be considered one. Full control of access and an interchange on the southern end.
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 07:44:04 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on July 22, 2021, 07:41:10 PM
As for the CBBT... it could technically be considered a freeway, but I can see where it wouldn't be considered one. Full control of access and an interchange on the southern end.
Once they both have two tunnels,  then it's for sure a freeway.
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: Max Rockatansky on July 22, 2021, 07:45:14 PM
CA 18 from the City Limit of San Bernardino to CA 138.  It is signed by Caltrans like a freeway but at best is a surface expressway. 
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: hotdogPi on July 22, 2021, 07:45:34 PM
I-587, New York. It doesn't violate Interstate construction standards, but it has no interchanges unlike your typical freeway.
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 07:52:38 PM
Quote from: 1 on July 22, 2021, 07:45:34 PM
I-587, New York. It doesn't violate Interstate construction standards, but it has no interchanges unlike your typical freeway.
I-180 aswell.

Wonder why they were even designed there in the first place.
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: SkyPesos on July 22, 2021, 08:03:03 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 07:52:38 PM
Quote from: 1 on July 22, 2021, 07:45:34 PM
I-587, New York. It doesn't violate Interstate construction standards, but it has no interchanges unlike your typical freeway.
I-180 aswell.

Wonder why they were even designed there in the first place.
Unlike I-587, I-180 (WY) isn't even a freeway in the first place.
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on July 22, 2021, 08:05:26 PM
Quote from: 1 on July 22, 2021, 07:45:34 PM
I-587, New York. It doesn't violate Interstate construction standards, but it has no interchanges unlike your typical freeway.

This brings about a question that I've had for a long time--how long between at grade intersections does a road have to go to be considered a freeway. This segment is just over a mile.

In Elkhart County, IN, CR 17 goes just over 3 miles between access points but with no interchanges. Is that a freeway?
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 08:10:52 PM
Ha! Another onehere (https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/34.2558/-77.9153)! No rumble strips with a side crossing to the right. Definitely not a real freeway.
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: SkyPesos on July 22, 2021, 09:16:21 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 08:10:52 PM
Ha! Another onehere (https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/34.2558/-77.9153)! No rumble strips with a side crossing to the right. Definitely not a real freeway.
Do RIROs count as controlled access?
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 10:08:37 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 22, 2021, 09:16:21 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 08:10:52 PM
Ha! Another onehere (https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/34.2558/-77.9153)! No rumble strips with a side crossing to the right. Definitely not a real freeway.
Do RIROs count as controlled access?
Talking about this (https://www.google.com/maps/@34.2571245,-77.9099295,3a,75y,128.69h,81.8t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sBK61uYftOazD-_6_CV1lOg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DBK61uYftOazD-_6_CV1lOg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D186.17589%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656). No.
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: Roadgeekteen on July 22, 2021, 10:10:45 PM
I-10 in western Texas

ducks

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=15847.0
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: SkyPesos on July 22, 2021, 10:12:57 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 10:08:37 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 22, 2021, 09:16:21 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 08:10:52 PM
Ha! Another onehere (https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/34.2558/-77.9153)! No rumble strips with a side crossing to the right. Definitely not a real freeway.
Do RIROs count as controlled access?
Talking about this (https://www.google.com/maps/@34.2571245,-77.9099295,3a,75y,128.69h,81.8t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sBK61uYftOazD-_6_CV1lOg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DBK61uYftOazD-_6_CV1lOg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D186.17589%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656). No.
Maybe not specifically that one, but more fancier ones like the chain on US 50 in MD (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9755362,-76.2813123,194m/data=!3m1!1e3) east of the Chesapeake Bay Bridge, which have exit numbers and are marked as part of a freeway on Google Maps.

And for one without a physical gore on an interstate, here's one on I-75 SB (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.2248562,-84.4537708,113m/data=!3m1!1e3) in Cincinnati.
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 10:22:00 PM
NCDOT calls this (https://www.ncdot.gov/projects/us-70-brier-creek/Documents/alternative-2-revised-brier-creek-tw-alexander.pdf) a "freeway" design.

And hell, does this (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.4827961,-78.2465717,482m/data=!3m1!1e3) look like a freeway to you?
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: SkyPesos on July 22, 2021, 10:24:06 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 10:22:00 PM
NCDOT calls this (https://www.ncdot.gov/projects/us-70-brier-creek/Documents/alternative-2-revised-brier-creek-tw-alexander.pdf) a "freeway" design.

And hell, does this (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.4827961,-78.2465717,482m/data=!3m1!1e3) look like a freeway to you?
Yes
Looks like a standard folded diamond to me. And I see nothing wrong with the design in the top link.
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 10:26:42 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 22, 2021, 10:24:06 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 10:22:00 PM
And hell, does this (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.4827961,-78.2465717,482m/data=!3m1!1e3) look like a freeway to you?
Yes
I say maybe an urban freeway, not rural.

They also say that this (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.7469703,-78.8925517,404m/data=!3m1!1e3) is a freeway also, except I think it was supposed to get C/D lanes.
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: SkyPesos on July 22, 2021, 10:28:45 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 10:26:42 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 22, 2021, 10:24:06 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 10:22:00 PM
And hell, does this (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.4827961,-78.2465717,482m/data=!3m1!1e3) look like a freeway to you?
Yes
I say maybe an urban freeway, not rural.

They also say that this (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.7469703,-78.8925517,404m/data=!3m1!1e3) is a freeway also, except I think it was supposed to get C/D lanes.
Are you referring to NC 540 or US 64 in the link? If it's NC 540, I see C/D lanes. If US 64, Google Maps code it as an limited access expressway, not the darker orange of a freeway.
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 10:30:42 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 22, 2021, 10:28:45 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 10:26:42 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 22, 2021, 10:24:06 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 10:22:00 PM
And hell, does this (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.4827961,-78.2465717,482m/data=!3m1!1e3) look like a freeway to you?
Yes
I say maybe an urban freeway, not rural.

They also say that this (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.7469703,-78.8925517,404m/data=!3m1!1e3) is a freeway also, except I think it was supposed to get C/D lanes.
Are you referring to NC 540 or US 64 in the link? If it's NC 540, I see C/D lanes. If US 64, Google Maps code it as an limited access expressway, not the darker orange of a freeway.
US 64. And it's hard to tell if Google Maps has it listed as an expressway or a freeway. Waze and OpenStreetMaps are more clear listing the segments as a freeway.
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: vdeane on July 22, 2021, 10:31:17 PM
I never thought I'd see a definition of "freeway" that was stricter than the one used by the Canadians arguing with me in the Detroit Bridge Wars thread (that the Thruway wasn't a freeway due to the toll barriers), but then I read this thread... :-o
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: SkyPesos on July 22, 2021, 10:32:32 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 10:30:42 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 22, 2021, 10:28:45 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 10:26:42 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 22, 2021, 10:24:06 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 10:22:00 PM
And hell, does this (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.4827961,-78.2465717,482m/data=!3m1!1e3) look like a freeway to you?
Yes
I say maybe an urban freeway, not rural.

They also say that this (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.7469703,-78.8925517,404m/data=!3m1!1e3) is a freeway also, except I think it was supposed to get C/D lanes.
Are you referring to NC 540 or US 64 in the link? If it's NC 540, I see C/D lanes. If US 64, Google Maps code it as an limited access expressway, not the darker orange of a freeway.
US 64. And it's hard to tell if Google Maps has it listed as an expressway or a freeway. Waze and OpenStreetMaps are more clear listing the segments as a freeway.
I think it looks clearer when zoomed out a bit. NC 540 is the N-S line to the left, US 1 is the diagonal on the bottom, and US 64 is the E-W.
(https://i.imgur.com/tsbnfxO.png)
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 10:36:47 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 22, 2021, 10:32:32 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 10:30:42 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 22, 2021, 10:28:45 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 10:26:42 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 22, 2021, 10:24:06 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 10:22:00 PM
And hell, does this (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.4827961,-78.2465717,482m/data=!3m1!1e3) look like a freeway to you?
Yes
I say maybe an urban freeway, not rural.

They also say that this (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.7469703,-78.8925517,404m/data=!3m1!1e3) is a freeway also, except I think it was supposed to get C/D lanes.
Are you referring to NC 540 or US 64 in the link? If it's NC 540, I see C/D lanes. If US 64, Google Maps code it as an limited access expressway, not the darker orange of a freeway.
US 64. And it's hard to tell if Google Maps has it listed as an expressway or a freeway. Waze and OpenStreetMaps are more clear listing the segments as a freeway.
I think it looks clearer when zoomed out a bit. NC 540 is the N-S line to the left, US 1 is the diagonal on the bottom, and US 64 is the E-W.
(https://i.imgur.com/tsbnfxO.png)
There has been some talk back in the day to convert that into a full freeway, but it seems like that plan is dead.
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: sprjus4 on July 22, 2021, 10:59:03 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 08:10:52 PM
Ha! Another onehere (https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/34.2558/-77.9153)! No rumble strips with a side crossing to the right. Definitely not a real freeway.
That segment before the at-grade RIRO is most certainly a freeway, however.
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: sprjus4 on July 22, 2021, 11:02:53 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 10:22:00 PM
NCDOT calls this (https://www.ncdot.gov/projects/us-70-brier-creek/Documents/alternative-2-revised-brier-creek-tw-alexander.pdf) a "freeway" design.

And hell, does this (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.4827961,-78.2465717,482m/data=!3m1!1e3) look like a freeway to you?
The top example is fully a freeway / limited access design. Just because the curve radius is smaller doesn't disqualify it.

As far as the bottom example, that's not even on a freeway so no.

You're confusing high speed rural interstate standards with freeway with these interchange comparisons. A 15 mph RIRO on a fully controlled access road is still a freeway. Substandard, sure, but still a freeway.
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: SkyPesos on July 22, 2021, 11:04:11 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 22, 2021, 10:31:17 PM
I never thought I'd see a definition of "freeway" that was stricter than the one used by the Canadians arguing with me in the Detroit Bridge Wars thread (that the Thruway wasn't a freeway due to the toll barriers), but then I read this thread... :-o
I think tolbs got "freeway" and "interstate standards" mixed up.
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 11:06:10 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on July 22, 2021, 11:04:11 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 22, 2021, 10:31:17 PM
I never thought I'd see a definition of "freeway" that was stricter than the one used by the Canadians arguing with me in the Detroit Bridge Wars thread (that the Thruway wasn't a freeway due to the toll barriers), but then I read this thread... :-o
I think tolbs got "freeway" and "interstate standards" mixed up.
Interstate standards has 10-12 feet shoulders on the right side, with fully controlled access.

Freeways don't have to have 10-12 foot shoulders, but if the median is small, they have a cable barrier. And yes, fully-controlled access too.
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: Rothman on July 23, 2021, 12:18:51 AM
What is this obsession with cable barriers? :D
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: tolbs17 on July 23, 2021, 12:22:30 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 23, 2021, 12:18:51 AM
What is this obsession with cable barriers? :D
For safety reasons if there is an accident, people don't have to risk themselves being close in the roadways.
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: Rothman on July 23, 2021, 12:23:15 AM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 23, 2021, 12:22:30 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 23, 2021, 12:18:51 AM
What is this obsession with cable barriers? :D
For safety reasons if there is an accident, people don't have to risk themselves being close in the roadways.
It doesn't have to specifically be a cable barrier. :D
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: tolbs17 on July 23, 2021, 12:23:53 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 23, 2021, 12:23:15 AM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 23, 2021, 12:22:30 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 23, 2021, 12:18:51 AM
What is this obsession with cable barriers? :D
For safety reasons if there is an accident, people don't have to risk themselves being close in the roadways.
It doesn't have to specifically be a cable barrier. :D
Ok, so how about a concrete barrier?
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: sprjus4 on July 23, 2021, 12:29:05 AM
^ Some sort of barrier is good practice when the median is narrower, but it's not required to make it a "freeway" .
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: Bickendan on July 23, 2021, 04:00:05 AM
Ok then. How about this? https://goo.gl/maps/WpYsmaAHqNC11p9h7

Or this? https://goo.gl/maps/GAJqY4ApiotdS4dz5

Or this? https://goo.gl/maps/tgqKAJgAfM4ZK5Xt9

Two of the three are classified as 'freeways'.
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: kphoger on July 23, 2021, 09:45:17 AM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 11:06:10 PM
Freeways don't have to have 10-12 foot shoulders, but if the median is small, they have a cable barrier.

Says who?

Also, what's your opinion about this (https://goo.gl/maps/f2GuDq25Y8gqNVLVA)?
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: tolbs17 on July 23, 2021, 12:31:20 PM
Quote from: kphoger on July 23, 2021, 09:45:17 AM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 11:06:10 PM
Freeways don't have to have 10-12 foot shoulders, but if the median is small, they have a cable barrier.

Says who?

Also, what's your opinion about this (https://goo.gl/maps/f2GuDq25Y8gqNVLVA)?
Wikipedia. And that's a freeway
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: hotdogPi on July 23, 2021, 12:34:35 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 23, 2021, 12:31:20 PM
Quote from: kphoger on July 23, 2021, 09:45:17 AM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 11:06:10 PM
Freeways don't have to have 10-12 foot shoulders, but if the median is small, they have a cable barrier.

Says who?

Also, what's your opinion about this (https://goo.gl/maps/f2GuDq25Y8gqNVLVA)?
Wikipedia. And that's a freeway

The Wikipedia article on freeways doesn't contain the word "cable" even once except inside other words such as "practicable".
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: jmacswimmer on July 23, 2021, 12:44:28 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 23, 2021, 12:31:20 PM
Quote from: kphoger on July 23, 2021, 09:45:17 AM
Says who?

Also, what's your opinion about this (https://goo.gl/maps/f2GuDq25Y8gqNVLVA)?
Wikipedia. And that's a freeway

Wait...I saw a narrow median with no cable barrier in the GSV kphoger linked.  But you said upthread:

Quote from: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 11:06:10 PM
Freeways don't have to have 10-12 foot shoulders, but if the median is small, they have a cable barrier.

So how is that a freeway by your standards? :hmmm:
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: kphoger on July 23, 2021, 01:21:47 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 23, 2021, 12:31:20 PM

Quote from: kphoger on July 23, 2021, 09:45:17 AM

Quote from: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 11:06:10 PM
Freeways don't have to have 10-12 foot shoulders, but if the median is small, they have a cable barrier.

Says who?

Wikipedia.

Not that I'm seeing:  In https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled-access_highway#United_States and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled-access_highway#Design, I don't see Wikipedia saying anywhere that freeways must have 10- to 12-foot shoulders, nor that they must have cable barriers if the median is small.
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: tolbs17 on July 23, 2021, 04:20:18 PM
Quote from: kphoger on July 23, 2021, 01:21:47 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 23, 2021, 12:31:20 PM

Quote from: kphoger on July 23, 2021, 09:45:17 AM

Quote from: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 11:06:10 PM
Freeways don't have to have 10-12 foot shoulders, but if the median is small, they have a cable barrier.

Says who?

Wikipedia.

Not that I'm seeing:  In https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled-access_highway#United_States and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled-access_highway#Design, I don't see Wikipedia saying anywhere that freeways must have 10- to 12-foot shoulders, nor that they must have cable barriers if the median is small.
Thats for an INTERSTATE not a normal freeway.
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: kphoger on July 23, 2021, 04:28:06 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 23, 2021, 04:20:18 PM

Quote from: kphoger on July 23, 2021, 01:21:47 PM

Quote from: tolbs17 on July 23, 2021, 12:31:20 PM

Quote from: kphoger on July 23, 2021, 09:45:17 AM

Quote from: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 11:06:10 PM
Freeways don't have to have 10-12 foot shoulders, but if the median is small, they have a cable barrier.

Says who?

Wikipedia.

Not that I'm seeing:  In https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled-access_highway#United_States and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled-access_highway#Design, I don't see Wikipedia saying anywhere that freeways must have 10- to 12-foot shoulders, nor that they must have cable barriers if the median is small.

Thats for an INTERSTATE not a normal freeway.

No, that's not what you said.  In the complete post of yours that started this line of conversation, you specifically defined "freeways" as opposed to only Interstates specifically as having to have cable barriers in the median if the median is small.

Then, when we asked you where you were getting that information, you said it was Wikipedia.

Full post below:

Quote from: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 11:06:10 PM
Interstate standards has 10-12 feet shoulders on the right side, with fully controlled access.

Freeways don't have to have 10-12 foot shoulders, but if the median is small, they have a cable barrier. And yes, fully-controlled access too.
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: tolbs17 on July 23, 2021, 04:29:04 PM
Quote from: kphoger on July 23, 2021, 04:28:06 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 23, 2021, 04:20:18 PM

Quote from: kphoger on July 23, 2021, 01:21:47 PM

Quote from: tolbs17 on July 23, 2021, 12:31:20 PM

Quote from: kphoger on July 23, 2021, 09:45:17 AM

Quote from: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 11:06:10 PM
Freeways don't have to have 10-12 foot shoulders, but if the median is small, they have a cable barrier.

Says who?

Wikipedia.

Not that I'm seeing:  In https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled-access_highway#United_States and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled-access_highway#Design, I don't see Wikipedia saying anywhere that freeways must have 10- to 12-foot shoulders, nor that they must have cable barriers if the median is small.

Thats for an INTERSTATE not a normal freeway.

No, that's not what you said.  In the complete post of yours that started this line of conversation, you specifically defined "freeways" as opposed to only Interstates specifically as having to have cable barriers in the median if the median is small.

Then, when we asked you where you were getting that information, you said it was Wikipedia.

Full post below:

Quote from: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 11:06:10 PM
Interstate standards has 10-12 feet shoulders on the right side, with fully controlled access.

Freeways don't have to have 10-12 foot shoulders, but if the median is small, they have a cable barrier. And yes, fully-controlled access too.
Well, that was just in my opinion.
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: kphoger on July 23, 2021, 04:34:51 PM
Then why did you claim it was Wikipedia's opinion?
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: tolbs17 on July 23, 2021, 04:41:14 PM
Quote from: kphoger on July 23, 2021, 04:34:51 PM
Then why did you claim it was Wikipedia's opinion?
Cause, there is a difference between a freeway and one that is built to interstate standards.
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: tolbs17 on July 23, 2021, 07:57:12 PM
22 in Bridgewater and Union have a "freeway" feel to it when driving on it. They are technically an expressway, but when driving on them, it has a freeway feel to it. Except going through North Plainfield where there's a few signals there that I wish were grade-separated.

This (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5794765,-74.5968607,3a,75y,124.73h,76.07t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1siBRkNQkSrWI0B_lZdZ2yTg!2e0!5s20201101T000000!7i16384!8i8192) looks risky as hell. I wish there was a right turn lane.
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: achilles765 on July 24, 2021, 09:30:34 AM
A couple here in Houston:
US 90 Alternate (South Main) from 610 to BW 8: interchanges, higher peed limit, yet a couple of at grade intersections that are RIRO
Memorial Drive from 45 to Shepherd: no at grade intersections, parkway feel, has one of the only full cloverleaf interchanges in the city at Waugh
Allen Parkway : basically the same as Memorial, except they added a signal at Taft so now its not continuously limited access.
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: 1995hoo on July 24, 2021, 09:38:40 AM
West Virginia sometimes uses the word "freeway" to refer to higher-speed roads with at-grade intersections. You'll see a sign advising that the "freeway" is about to end. Two examples that readily come to mind are Corridor H eastbound approaching Wardensville and US-340 eastbound approaching Harpers Ferry. (Sorry, no Street View links–I'm typing on my iPad and the Google Maps app's "Share" button isn't working this morning.) Corridor H pretty much feels like a "freeway" despite having at-grade intersections. The relevant part of US-340 definitely does not.
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: tolbs17 on July 24, 2021, 04:09:23 PM
https://www.wral.com/residents-fighting-proposed-u-s-64-expansion/5270347/

I miss this old project... I wish it got brought back because it looks VERY nice.

There was a youtube video about it but it's no longer available.
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: kphoger on July 25, 2021, 05:02:50 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 23, 2021, 07:57:12 PM
This (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5794765,-74.5968607,3a,75y,124.73h,76.07t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1siBRkNQkSrWI0B_lZdZ2yTg!2e0!5s20201101T000000!7i16384!8i8192) looks risky as hell. I wish there was a right turn lane.

How is that any riskier than the dozen business entrances just before there?
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: tolbs17 on July 25, 2021, 05:05:02 PM
Quote from: kphoger on July 25, 2021, 05:02:50 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 23, 2021, 07:57:12 PM
This (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5794765,-74.5968607,3a,75y,124.73h,76.07t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1siBRkNQkSrWI0B_lZdZ2yTg!2e0!5s20201101T000000!7i16384!8i8192) looks risky as hell. I wish there was a right turn lane.

How is that any riskier than the dozen business entrances just before there?
Because of the solid white line.
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: kphoger on July 25, 2021, 06:02:04 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 25, 2021, 05:05:02 PM

Quote from: kphoger on July 25, 2021, 05:02:50 PM

Quote from: tolbs17 on July 23, 2021, 07:57:12 PM
This (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5794765,-74.5968607,3a,75y,124.73h,76.07t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1siBRkNQkSrWI0B_lZdZ2yTg!2e0!5s20201101T000000!7i16384!8i8192) looks risky as hell. I wish there was a right turn lane.

How is that any riskier than the dozen business entrances just before there?

Because of the solid white line.

No (https://goo.gl/maps/dVzPfyhW2Gdn4NQo8) different (https://goo.gl/maps/ZRx3DjHJekqq4jwz9).
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: tolbs17 on July 25, 2021, 06:04:50 PM
Quote from: kphoger on July 25, 2021, 06:02:04 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 25, 2021, 05:05:02 PM

Quote from: kphoger on July 25, 2021, 05:02:50 PM

Quote from: tolbs17 on July 23, 2021, 07:57:12 PM
This (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5794765,-74.5968607,3a,75y,124.73h,76.07t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1siBRkNQkSrWI0B_lZdZ2yTg!2e0!5s20201101T000000!7i16384!8i8192) looks risky as hell. I wish there was a right turn lane.

How is that any riskier than the dozen business entrances just before there?

Because of the solid white line.

No (https://goo.gl/maps/dVzPfyhW2Gdn4NQo8) different (https://goo.gl/maps/ZRx3DjHJekqq4jwz9).
Would  it be safer if they just added frontage roads?
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: kphoger on July 25, 2021, 06:29:02 PM
Depends.  Are people having car crashes because of it the way it is?  If not, then no.
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: tolbs17 on July 25, 2021, 06:31:03 PM
Quote from: kphoger on July 25, 2021, 06:29:02 PM
Depends.  Are people having car crashes because of it the way it is?  If not, then no.
Here's (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5752307,-74.5617834,3a,79.3y,106.47h,86.95t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sP7XZpHbGve_uNbiDZ8eWwg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DP7XZpHbGve_uNbiDZ8eWwg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D135.41945%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192) an example.
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: kphoger on July 25, 2021, 06:34:55 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 25, 2021, 06:31:03 PM

Quote from: kphoger on July 25, 2021, 06:29:02 PM
Depends.  Are people having car crashes because of it the way it is?  If not, then no.

Here's (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5752307,-74.5617834,3a,79.3y,106.47h,86.95t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sP7XZpHbGve_uNbiDZ8eWwg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DP7XZpHbGve_uNbiDZ8eWwg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D135.41945%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192) an example.

Of what?  A car crash?
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: tolbs17 on July 25, 2021, 06:54:00 PM
Quote from: kphoger on July 25, 2021, 06:34:55 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 25, 2021, 06:31:03 PM

Quote from: kphoger on July 25, 2021, 06:29:02 PM
Depends.  Are people having car crashes because of it the way it is?  If not, then no.

Here's (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5752307,-74.5617834,3a,79.3y,106.47h,86.95t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sP7XZpHbGve_uNbiDZ8eWwg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DP7XZpHbGve_uNbiDZ8eWwg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D135.41945%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192) an example.

Of what?  A car crash?
No. Through lanes and frontage roads.
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: KCRoadFan on July 25, 2021, 08:25:14 PM
When I saw the thread title, I thought about the US 50 freeway in Maryland east of DC, along which (especially in the Annapolis area) many of the "exits"  are nothing more than glorified at-grade intersections. (Some of them even have turn arrows marked on the pavement - and they still have exit number signs!)
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: tolbs17 on July 25, 2021, 08:30:03 PM
Quote from: KCRoadFan on July 25, 2021, 08:25:14 PM
When I saw the thread title, I thought about the US 50 freeway in Maryland east of DC, along which (especially in the Annapolis area) many of the "exits"  are nothing more than glorified at-grade intersections. (Some of them even have turn arrows marked on the pavement - and they still have exit number signs!)
Interesting to see. We only have exit numbers on freeways. Should we start signing non-freeways to have exit numbers like this (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.7339042,-77.880069,3a,55.9y,47.49h,89.7t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sg4YWJJ4M6BpqFcxmHs2aFg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) one? Btw, that interchange needs to be completely rebuilt.
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: kphoger on July 27, 2021, 10:28:19 AM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 25, 2021, 06:54:00 PM

Quote from: kphoger on July 25, 2021, 06:34:55 PM

Quote from: tolbs17 on July 25, 2021, 06:31:03 PM

Quote from: kphoger on July 25, 2021, 06:29:02 PM
Depends.  Are people having car crashes because of it the way it is?  If not, then no.

Here's (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5752307,-74.5617834,3a,79.3y,106.47h,86.95t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sP7XZpHbGve_uNbiDZ8eWwg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DP7XZpHbGve_uNbiDZ8eWwg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D135.41945%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192) an example.

Of what?  A car crash?

No. Through lanes and frontage roads.

So it had nothing to do with my statement that you quoted.

What I said is that frontage roads aren't safer if the existing road isn't crash-prone to begin with.
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: tolbs17 on July 27, 2021, 03:08:04 PM
Quote from: kphoger on July 27, 2021, 10:28:19 AM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 25, 2021, 06:54:00 PM

Quote from: kphoger on July 25, 2021, 06:34:55 PM

Quote from: tolbs17 on July 25, 2021, 06:31:03 PM

Quote from: kphoger on July 25, 2021, 06:29:02 PM
Depends.  Are people having car crashes because of it the way it is?  If not, then no.

Here's (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5752307,-74.5617834,3a,79.3y,106.47h,86.95t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sP7XZpHbGve_uNbiDZ8eWwg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DP7XZpHbGve_uNbiDZ8eWwg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D135.41945%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192) an example.

Of what?  A car crash?

No. Through lanes and frontage roads.

So it had nothing to do with my statement that you quoted.

What I said is that frontage roads aren't safer if the existing road isn't crash-prone to begin with.
So does that mean frontage roads will make the arterial worse?
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: kphoger on July 27, 2021, 03:10:45 PM
Frontage roads don't necessarily make a road worse or better.  It depends.
A SPUI doesn't necessarily make an interchange worse or better.  It depends.
A roundabout doesn't necessarily make an intersection worse of better.  It depends.
___ (fill in the blank) doesn't necessarily make ___ (fill in the blank) worse or better.  It depends.
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: dvferyance on July 28, 2021, 03:44:30 PM
Many freeways in Mexico have at grade intersections.
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: kphoger on July 28, 2021, 03:49:18 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on July 28, 2021, 03:44:30 PM
Many freeways highways in Mexico have at grade intersections.

By definition, they are not freeways.

Note that there are true freeways in Mexico, however.  All the ones I've been on are toll roads.

Actually, non-freeway toll roads in Mexico are rare, for what should be obvious reasons.
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: bcroadguy on August 20, 2021, 09:34:55 AM
Quote from: KCRoadFan on July 25, 2021, 08:25:14 PM
When I saw the thread title, I thought about the US 50 freeway in Maryland east of DC, along which (especially in the Annapolis area) many of the “exits” are nothing more than glorified at-grade intersections. (Some of them even have turn arrows marked on the pavement - and they still have exit number signs!)

BC has numbered exits that are signalized intersections (https://www.google.com/maps/@49.1714059,-123.9826776,3a,39.8y,172.72h,95.46t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1siMon4b4aZJlzZeRa6llN-w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) on Highway 19.

All of them were supposed to be interchanges, but they ran out of money :/
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: Henry on August 20, 2021, 10:13:34 AM
The quintessential "non-freeway" is one in name only, New York's Rockaway Freeway. Of course, the real freeways in the city are called expressways, and signed as such. Chicago used to be the same way too, until the Calumet Expressway was renamed the Bishop Ford Freeway.
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 20, 2021, 11:03:19 PM
Quote from: KCRoadFan on July 25, 2021, 08:25:14 PM
When I saw the thread title, I thought about the US 50 freeway in Maryland east of DC, along which (especially in the Annapolis area) many of the "exits"  are nothing more than glorified at-grade intersections. (Some of them even have turn arrows marked on the pavement - and they still have exit number signs!)

It's full Interstate standard ("secret" I-595) as far east as MD-70 (Rowe Boulevard) in Annapolis.

Beyond that, in Arnold; Cape St. Claire, Whitehall and Skidmore (but not Annapolis) - and on the Queen Anne's County section of U.S. 50/U.S. 301 from the WPL Bridge landing to Queenstown "split" there are several right on/right off "interchanges" that would presumably not be allowed on a "real" Interstate.
Title: Re: Freeways that aren't really a freeway
Post by: Hobart on August 21, 2021, 04:07:39 PM
If it counts for anything, the Bismarck Expressway is only grade separated for two miles before it downgrades to a four lane surface street while keeping the "expressway" monkier. I was thinking they wanted it to be a bypass, but the city grew south.