https://goo.gl/maps/vzk5onGD2MtC8xxF8
Evidence at I-85 in Lexington, NC that I-85 used to be I-85 Business as this directional interchange shows the fact that I-85 north of it was added and BL I-85 and I-85 to the south were indeed one continuous freeway through this.
Any others that still have visible evidence of its original configuration.
So what's the evidence? I can see in old historic imagery that the freeway used to continue straight-on, rather than curve under that off-ramp as it does now. But I don't see any evidence of such on the ground now. Other than the carriageway clearly pointing straight at the original route. Is that it?
I suppose there would be more examples, but one thing that I think is related would be at this interchange on WA-16 in Tacoma (https://goo.gl/maps/S9UTMuXy2LdikPWNA). The old loop ramp towards S Tyler St was partly repurposed as part of a trail system, after the interchange was rebuilt in 2006 to become more of a Y-junction, rather than a parclo. The loop was originally constructed in the late 1980s, when WA-16 was upgraded from expressway to freeway.
How does this thread differ from other threads that discuss stubs and such?
If direction of carriageways counts as evidence, another one would be this interchange of 15-501 and Franklin Street in Chapel Hill, NC, where the highway used to continue straight onto Franklin Street (the bypass, Fordham Blvd, being built sometime around the 50's): https://goo.gl/maps/6xMDXFD8aHZNxKm76 . From how the lanes merge, you can also see how Fordham Blvd used to be just two lanes.
The glorious mess (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.2564198,-76.8150977,1378m/data=!3m1!1e3) that is the Eisenhower Interchange in Harrisburg used to be a simple four-way intersection. This is why US 322 exists as a parallel four-lane roadway to I-83; US 322 utilizes the old I-83 pavement.
Quote from: jakeroot on August 14, 2019, 04:06:28 AM
So what's the evidence? I can see in old historic imagery that the freeway used to continue straight-on, rather than curve under that off-ramp as it does now. But I don't see any evidence of such on the ground now. Other than the carriageway clearly pointing straight at the original route. Is that it?
I suppose there would be more examples, but one thing that I think is related would be at this interchange on WA-16 in Tacoma (https://goo.gl/maps/S9UTMuXy2LdikPWNA). The old loop ramp towards S Tyler St was partly repurposed as part of a trail system, after the interchange was rebuilt in 2006 to become more of a Y-junction, rather than a parclo. The loop was originally constructed in the late 1980s, when WA-16 was upgraded from expressway to freeway.
How does this thread differ from other threads that discuss stubs and such?
Plenty look at I-85 Business (now also the new I-285) you can see it align itself with I-85 to the south of the interchange. I-85 used to use I-85 Business (though I do not know how it did in High Point with the at grade intersections, but old maps show it as full freeway and I-85) You can see how the ramps sliding away here were added and that both I-85 and I-85 Business defaulted into to each other real easy.
US 127 in St. Johns, MI if you drive it you can imagine how it was once one continuous roadway between US 127 and its business route into the city before they bypass freeway was constructed making the four lane expressway to the north tie in seamlessly with the four lane arterial into town. Basically the thread is about those interchanges where you can still picture the old form before the current one. Many newly added extensions the government engineers do a great job of making the exchange look like it was there from the start.
Quote from: roadman65 on August 14, 2019, 11:59:27 PM
Plenty look at I-85 Business (now also the new I-285) you can see it align itself with I-85 to the south of the interchange. I-85 used to use I-85 Business (though I do not know how it did in High Point with the at grade intersections, but old maps show it as full freeway and I-85) You can see how the ramps sliding away here were added and that both I-85 and I-85 Business defaulted into to each other real easy.
Often times these types of interchanges have a ramp using what was the mainline roadway. I-95 Business's tie in at both ends in Fayetteville have this dynamic.
I-85 was signed as I-85 TEMP when it existed along today's I-85 Business, which was built as a quasi-freeway in stages from 1952-57. Except for 1962-65 (map redesign), NC Officials showed it as 85 Temp from 1961 until the always-intended alignment I-85 was actually built to the east. Official maps also stopped showing it as a full freeway in 1971.
A good Virginia example is the I-95/295 interchange south of Petersburg, where the old 95 NB carriageway ROW is still visible from I-95 SB - https://goo.gl/maps/mqg7RxMmh8dyv7rq7
This reminds me of I-205 and OR 213/224 interchange - https://goo.gl/maps/AxVq78VgYoBkEX9D6
You can tell by the straight ramp from 213 that this was the original, intended routing for I-205.
Also, I-5 and WA 512 - https://goo.gl/maps/wFmWJqMhVJHEfdTf6
You can see from the aerial view (and on the ground), that this used to be a full cloverleaf.
Quote from: TEG24601 on August 15, 2019, 11:56:16 AM
This reminds me of I-205 and OR 213/224 interchange - https://goo.gl/maps/AxVq78VgYoBkEX9D6
You can tell by the straight ramp from 213 that this was the original, intended routing for I-205.
is Fuller Road a few blocks north also on the originally planned corridor for 205?
On I-395 where the Connecticut Turnpike splits off (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7626383,-71.8724868,3a,70.1y,21.58h,96.69t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sWeczol16X9MTcXpdRGieFg!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DWeczol16X9MTcXpdRGieFg%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D135.56003%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656), it's very obvious I-395 came later as the "exit" is dead ahead and the I-395 lanes very visibly turn to the left.
The same thing happens on Jefferson Country CR 191 approaching the Thousand Islands Bridge (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.3089608,-75.9907279,3a,75y,126.42h,88.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snnvTop72lPNUaw5bG8PSRA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656).
In the satellite imagery seen below Glenstone Avenue/BUS 65 used to go all the way to the US-65 freeway to the east and continued as US-60 past there. in 1990 the James River Freeway was built and instead of that section of road continuing along Glenstone it turned to follow the new James River Freeway. As a result Glenstone now has to be accessed via an interchange. The fact that Glenstone and the stretch of JRF running east of Glenstone run at the same angle shows it was once the same road. The BGS for the 60/65 interchange can be easily read from the section of Glenstone, as it is mounted at the same angle (or it was, since they planted trees in the way). BUS-65 still follows JRF to Glenstone, and then continues along Glenstone to BUS-I44.
https://imgur.com/a/MDcpy0S (https://imgur.com/a/MDcpy0S)
https://imgur.com/a/gpNaLYy (https://imgur.com/a/gpNaLYy)
EDIT: images wouldn't load, so I just added the links.
There are several interchanges around St. Louis where grading remains for former loop ramps.
* I-255 at MO 231. Once a full cloverleaf; it also appears there is still a culvert remaining in the NE quadrant for the original NB MO 231 to WB I-255 movement (Google aerial (https://goo.gl/maps/kTCsfuT4bF2r4dKaA))
* I-55 at I-270/I-255 (https://goo.gl/maps/WB3xQyw64T8ee3vb9)
* I-44 at I-270 (https://goo.gl/maps/JqM9q8zAXkz75VEJ9)
* I-270 at US 67 (https://goo.gl/maps/Jhpn7tPucDF1fqK19)
Then there's the former alignment of US 67 near Lambert Airport, which now has the remains of the former diamond interchange with what was then Natural Bridge Road visible. (https://goo.gl/maps/ZKifofjKC2Y59XX8A)
Edit I now realize the US 67 example does not qualify for this thread, although it still had (has?) an exit gore sign at the start of the former ramp as if it still was an interchange. (https://goo.gl/maps/aY1HikPeszv93vDG6)
Quote from: TEG24601 on August 15, 2019, 11:56:16 AM
Also, I-5 and WA 512 - https://goo.gl/maps/wFmWJqMhVJHEfdTf6
You can see from the aerial view (and on the ground), that this used to be a full cloverleaf.
Being quite familiar with this interchange, I'm not sure it would count. Though there continues to be some visible grading, and a little stub action, the layout of the roads wouldn't really suggest that the current layout wasn't original.
At I-5 and SR 18 (https://www.google.com/maps/@47.2896663,-122.3054685,790m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en) in Federal Way (south of Seattle), the northwest corner ramp is still very clearly curved to fit around the former loop ramp. (Of course, that ramp is just weird in general, with the signalized merge and HOV bypass at the bottom, but that's a different discussion.) The grading from the loop ramps is also still very visible.
Quote from: Mapmikey on August 15, 2019, 06:30:38 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 14, 2019, 11:59:27 PM
Plenty look at I-85 Business (now also the new I-285) you can see it align itself with I-85 to the south of the interchange. I-85 used to use I-85 Business (though I do not know how it did in High Point with the at grade intersections, but old maps show it as full freeway and I-85) You can see how the ramps sliding away here were added and that both I-85 and I-85 Business defaulted into to each other real easy.
I-85 was signed as I-85 TEMP when it existed along today's I-85 Business, which was built as a quasi-freeway in stages from 1952-57. Except for 1962-65 (map redesign), NC Officials showed it as 85 Temp from 1961 until the always-intended alignment I-85 was actually built to the east. Official maps also stopped showing it as a full freeway in 1971.
yes this is more along the correct line. that freeway was built or in progress as US 29/70 (maybe even 52 at that point). when I-85 came into existence, it was always planned to do what it does today. so yes, the freeway originally continued straight, but it was never actually mainline I-85.
MA-25 Exit 2
You can still see some of the scarring (the almost barren median) from where Maple Springs Rd used to just feed directly into the freeway pre-1987.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Wareham,+MA/@41.7675602,-70.6815317,326m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x89e4c6a72cbeb669:0x99f42ba694a14823!8m2!3d41.7614511!4d-70.7197342
And then there's just about every interchange on Ayd Mill Rd in St. Paul, MN
Interstate 68 at US 219 Exit 22. aerial views tell the tale of a bunch of ghost ramps, reminants spread all over the westbound exit lane.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.6288554,-82.8510242,3017m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en
I-94 at M-59 (exit 240) show on the westbound (southbound) side a ghost ramp that was also at one time the route for M-29. The Long ghost ramp started life as a two-lane section of M-29 in the 1940s, and became a on ramp in the 1960s for M-29/I-94. The ramp was altered when M-59 was rebuilt in the 1990s and its endpoint was changed from its endpoint with M-3 at I-94/M-29 to I-94 exit 240. Nearby is also the remains of once was the left turn ramps that connected Eastbound M-59 to Gratiot Ave (M-3), also removed when M-59 was rebuilt in the 90s.
Missouri definitely has it's share. I-70 at US 63 in Columbia (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9622024,-92.2963938,2352m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en) is also interesting as rather than upgrade the interchange MODOT built a new US 63 freeway bypass around the old interchange, turning the old road into a mini-Breezewood for connecting two freeways. Columbia's population has exploded since this was built and now the entire network is a mess.
Missouri also has this ramp ghost in Springfield at I-44/US 65 (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.2506733,-93.2234936,855m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en).
The last one I can think of off the top of my head is just NW of Appleton, WI at US 41/WI 15 (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.2868727,-88.4668275,2477m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en). The divided highway west of US 41 didn't exist 30 years ago. Northland Avenue, then also known as CTH OO only had ramps connecting south. You can still see where the old slip ramp from Northland merged into SB US 41. I moved from Wisconsin in 1987 so I have no idea when the current configuration was built, but I know it's been there for a while now.
This isn't quite the same, but it's interesting nonetheless. Virginia is notorious for just leaving old ramps working after improving interchanges. I-64 at I-264 in Norfolk (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.8452376,-76.1949793,1065m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en) has two redundant ramps (WB to SB and SB to EB) and one that is almost redundant (EB to NB). I-64 at I-495 just east of Richmond (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.5178652,-77.2755517,3110m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en) where the old ramp for traffic from DC to Tidewater was left after the new flyover ramp was built has only the one redundancy. I think you could say the old cloverleaf ramps are evidence of the history in its original form once you realize all the flyovers are more recent.
FWIW, the SB I-64 to EB I-264 flyover ramp frequently backs up (or at least did when I lived there). I'd frequently just skip the backup and proceed to the cloverleaf ramp. I have no idea why more people didn't do this.
Quote from: skluth on August 21, 2019, 06:55:51 PM
This isn't quite the same, but it's interesting nonetheless. Virginia is notorious for just leaving old ramps working after improving interchanges. I-64 at I-264 in Norfolk (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.8452376,-76.1949793,1065m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en) has two redundant ramps (WB to SB and SB to EB) and one that is almost redundant (EB to NB). I-64 at I-495 just east of Richmond (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.5178652,-77.2755517,3110m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en) where the old ramp for traffic from DC to Tidewater was left after the new flyover ramp was built has only the one redundancy. I think you could say the old cloverleaf ramps are evidence of the history in its original form once you realize all the flyovers are more recent.
FWIW, the SB I-64 to EB I-264 flyover ramp frequently backs up (or at least did when I lived there). I'd frequently just skip the backup and proceed to the cloverleaf ramp. I have no idea why more people didn't do this.
The I-264 loop ramps aren't redundant, they serve traffic entering / exiting from Newtown Rd.
The US 5 / CT 15 / CT 9 / CT 372 interchange (https://goo.gl/maps/6AcMVBWssq1ziZTX6) in Berlin, CT has no ghost ramps, but two ramps have survived three generations of the interchange with few changes.
1942: a four-ramp folded diamond interchange with US 5 (Berlin Turnpike) and CT 72 (a two-lane road). Ramps are in the SW and NE quadrants.
1961: the CT 72 freeway opens, and a "fractured cloverleaf" is built at the Berlin Turnpike. UConn's aerial map library is broken now, but a photo survives on my Route 72 page (https://www.kurumi.com/roads/ct/ct72.html).
1989: CT 72 becomes part of a completed CT 9 in the area, and a unique not-really-free-flowing set of ramps replaces the cloverleaf: https://goo.gl/maps/6AcMVBWssq1ziZTX6
The ramps to and from Berlin Turnpike northbound to/from CT 372 look largely the same (but a little bit shorter) than the 1942 ramps to CT 72 at the time.
A little different than the other examples because the ramp still exists, but when the Mall of America was built a flyover was built from NB MN 77 to WB I-494 as part of associates improvements due to the mall. The original loop ramp movement was repurposed into an HOV ramp.
I thought I'd never be able to come up with anything for this thread, but Sagtikos State Parkway used to have RIRO ramps to Crooked Hill Road(Suffolk CR 13) between the Long Island Expressway east-to-south ramp and the Crooked Hill Road bridge over the parkway.
A southbound on-ramp also used to exist from Long Island Motor Parkway... or at least they tried to make one.
Further north on Sunken Meadow, there used to be ramps for St. Johnland Road within Sunken Meadow State Park. Today, the northbound one is for park maitenance, but Hagstroms still thought it was a regular parclo for a long time.
Quote from: skluth on August 21, 2019, 06:55:51 PM
Virginia is notorious for just leaving old ramps working after improving interchanges. I-64 at I-264 in Norfolk (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.8452376,-76.1949793,1065m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en) has two redundant ramps (WB to SB and SB to EB) and one that is almost redundant (EB to NB). I-64 at I-495 just east of Richmond (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.5178652,-77.2755517,3110m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en) where the old ramp for traffic from DC to Tidewater was left after the new flyover ramp was built has only the one redundancy. I think you could say the old cloverleaf ramps are evidence of the history in its original form once you realize all the flyovers are more recent.
I wouldn't call any of them redundant. One of them provides for local access to Newtown Road, as the semi-direct ramp connects to the inside of I-264 (and I believe that is original construction).
All enable freeway u-turns, granted that few motorists would use that movement, and they provide for easy u-turns for snow plow trucks. Useful enough that I can see why they were retained.
You can clearly make out the former ramp leaving the Walt Whitman Bridge toll plaza on I-76 West for I-95/Front Street, which was so close to the plaza the merge back to regular highway lanes wasn't completed yet. https://goo.gl/maps/Ay8ExTr1K2N2sABAA
However, at 7th Street and Packer Ave (included in the link above), there were former ramps here, one for Northbound 7th Street to 76 East, and Southbound 7th Street to 76 East. Those ramps were removed and no trace of them remain. The ramps were replaced with ramps at Darien Street, which would be 8 1/3 street if so numbered.
(Due to their location near the Philly stadium complex, it's also the only location I ever saw where cops directed traffic going northbound on 7th Street to make a U-turn onto the Southbound 7th Street ramp for I-76 East after games to help with the flow of traffic leaving the complex).
At the western part of the I-90/Mass Pike interchange with I-95 (MA 128) in Weston, one can still see a stretch of pavement of what was once I-90 eastbound (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Weston,+MA+02493/@42.339429,-71.2742039,387m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x89e3848889e85687:0xd3d2228281df7282!8m2!3d42.3667625!4d-71.3031132) prior to the Boston Extension being built circa 1964-65.
When it became apparent that the originally-planned I-95 corridor north of Canton & the US 3 highway corridor south of Burlington were not going to be built; one open/active cloverleaf ramp at each interchange was closed/abandoned when both interchanges were converted to their current trumpet-style interchange.
I-95 (MA 128)/US 3 interchange in Burlington: the cloverleaf ramp from I-95/MA 128 northbound to US 3 northbound was abandoned during the mid-1970s. (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Burlington,+MA/@42.4756186,-71.2224122,1091m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x89e3f6f852edf93f:0xee1834ac5b81a90d!8m2!3d42.5047161!4d-71.1956205)
I-95/93/US 1/MA 128 (originally I-95/MA 128) interchange in Canton: the cloverleaf ramp from then-just MA 128 northbound to I-95 southbound was abandoned circa 1977. (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Canton,+MA/@42.2090844,-71.1422061,1098m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x89e481bdecf5a775:0xa35829897f4e20c0!8m2!3d42.1584324!4d-71.1447732)
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 22, 2019, 02:03:48 PM
You can clearly make out the former ramp leaving the Walt Whitman Bridge toll plaza on I-76 West for I-95/Front Street, which was so close to the plaza the merge back to regular highway lanes wasn't completed yet. https://goo.gl/maps/Ay8ExTr1K2N2sABAA
However, at 7th Street and Packer Ave (included in the link above), there were former ramps here, one for Northbound 7th Street to 76 East, and Southbound 7th Street to 76 East. Those ramps were removed and no trace of them remain. The ramps were replaced with ramps at Darien Street, which would be 8 1/3 street if so numbered.
(Due to their location near the Philly stadium complex, it's also the only location I ever saw where cops directed traffic going northbound on 7th Street to make a U-turn onto the Southbound 7th Street ramp for I-76 East after games to help with the flow of traffic leaving the complex).
My dad used to U-turn from SB 7th street to the northbound ramp when that still existed. I think he did that because at the time the SB 7th street ramp to I-76 EB had no on-ramp. You had to merge directly onto the freeway. This was when they had squeezed in 4 eastbound lanes from Broad street to the bridge.
A couple more in Danvers, MA where intersections were converted to interchanges during the 1950s along US 1.
MA 114 interchange: the 1 north/114 west and the 1 south/114 west ramps were originally the mainline MA 114/Andover St. that intersected w/US 1 (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Danvers,+MA+01923/@42.561373,-70.9777249,524m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x89e3119e03fdd8df:0x4406bb507805e1f4!8m2!3d42.5750009!4d-70.932122)
MA 62 interchange: the 1 north/62 east and the 1 south/62 east ramps were originally the mainline MA 62/Maple St. that intersected w/US 1 (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Danvers,+MA+01923/@42.5827556,-70.9702598,733m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x89e3119e03fdd8df:0x4406bb507805e1f4!8m2!3d42.5750009!4d-70.932122)
Note: prior to I-95 being built, the current dead-ended Maple St. sections were continuous and part of MA 62 as well.
Quote from: PHLBOS on August 28, 2019, 03:53:34 PM
A couple more in Danvers, MA where intersections were converted to interchanges during the 1950s along US 1.
MA 114 interchange: the 1 north/114 west and the 1 south/114 west ramps were originally the mainline MA 114/Andover St. that intersected w/US 1 (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Danvers,+MA+01923/@42.561373,-70.9777249,524m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x89e3119e03fdd8df:0x4406bb507805e1f4!8m2!3d42.5750009!4d-70.932122)
MA 62 interchange: the 1 north/62 east and the 1 south/62 east ramps were originally the mainline MA 62/Maple St. that intersected w/US 1 (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Danvers,+MA+01923/@42.5827556,-70.9702598,733m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x89e3119e03fdd8df:0x4406bb507805e1f4!8m2!3d42.5750009!4d-70.932122)
Note: prior to I-95 being built, the current dead-ended Maple St. sections were continuous and part of MA 62 as well.
Thanks for these! I always suspected the 62 one but never knew about the 114 one.