When I look at maps of Cincinnati and Louisville, their freeway networks seem quite similar. So I started looking for others, and Nashville and Memphis are similar in a way, Kansas City and Oklahoma City, New Orleans and Tampa/St Pete, and Detroit and Cleveland. Also, Dallas/Ft Worth is a larger template of the twin cities, as is Chicago with Milwaukee.
I always thought Indy and Columbus, OH are similar...and had the Downtown Indy Loop happened, would have been moreso
I am not seeing some of the similarities already mentioned. If I'm overlooking it feel free to point it out.
Nashville versus Memphis
* Nashville has more of a loop around its downtown with I-40, I-24, and I-65. Even if Memphis has completed the riverfront corridor, there would not have been as much of a loop around it's downtown.
* Memphis has a few more stub routes compared to Nashville, with Sam Cooper Boulevard, US 78 inside the I-269 loop, and the spur off I-40 to US 51 north of downtown.
* Nashville seems to have a more extensive system than Memphis in general.
Kansas City versus Oklahoma City
* Oklahoma City does not have a complete beltway at this time, compared to Kansas City. The lack of a bypass from I-35 northward to I-40 eastward is particularly noticeable.
* Oklahoma City does not have a tight loop around its downtown compared to Kansas City.
* I don't really see a bypass/spur to the bypass in Oklahoma City similar to I-470 for Kansas City.
Chicago versus Milwaukee
I can kind of see this one:
* The north-south section of I-794 and the Lake Parkway as Lake Shore Drive heading south from the Chicago Loop
* Had it been completed, the Park Freeway west as I-90 westward to O'Hare.
* The Stadium Freeway as the short IL 171 freeway near I-55
There's still several corridors lacking in Milwaukee that Chicagoland has though:
* No semi-diagonal route running southwestward from downtown Milwaukee (I-55 in Chicagoland)
* I don't really see an equivalent to the I-355/IL 53 corridor in Milwaukee.
Jackson, MS and Sioux Falls, SD look fairly close, though Sioux Falls lacks a short multiplex between I-90 and I-29.
I rotated the Cleveland map to appear that Lake Erie is the East Coast of Cleveland instead of the North Coast...Cleveland's Freeway network is not identical to Chicago's, but they have some common themes, when I compare them that way
Right now, Texarkana and Shreveport are identical (rotated 180°) except for the additional I-49 segment south of I-20.
Beaumont, TX and Utica, NY are also quite similar, the two differences being NY 49 and the presence/absence of an overlap between the two major freeways.
Future: Charlotte and Greensboro
Baltimore and Washington
Portland and Seattle
Kansas City and Atlanta
Pittsburgh and Tampa-St. Petersburg
New York and Los Angeles
Rochester and Albany, though they're positioned differently relative to downtown. I imagine I-87 as being similar to I-390, I-787 to I-590, I-90 to I-490, NY 7 to NY 104, and the Berkshire Spur to the Thruway (one could also make a case for I-890/NY 890 to NY 531). The main differences would be I-88, NY 204, the Inner Loop, the Thruway west of I-390, the Lake Ontario State Parkway, the South Mall Arterial, NY 378, and NY 85.
Phoenix and Las Vegas seem to both be going for the concept of using single numeric designations as a "Loop" of sorts regarding freeway numbering.
MSP and DFW, if you widen out MSP's or compress DFW.
Quote from: vdeane on August 05, 2019, 12:52:18 PM
Rochester and Albany, though they're positioned differently relative to downtown. I imagine I-87 as being similar to I-390, I-787 to I-590, I-90 to I-490, NY 7 to NY 104, and the Berkshire Spur to the Thruway (one could also make a case for I-890/NY 890 to NY 531). The main differences would be I-88, NY 204, the Inner Loop, the Thruway west of I-390, the Lake Ontario State Parkway, the South Mall Arterial, NY 378, and NY 85.
Because I'm from the Youngstown, Ohio area, and because I was in Rochester *once* :-/, I recall thinking that Rochester's "Inner Loop" (some of which has since been apparently abandoned/re-purposed) and that stretch of I-490 to the west and south where the Inner Loop connected at both ends was very similar to Youngstown's stretch of I-680 and the connections with OH-193/US-422 and US-62/OH-7.
Rochester: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1588832,-77.5836149,14.04z
Youngstown: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.1019335,-80.6402348,14.04z
Quote from: vdeane on August 05, 2019, 12:52:18 PM
Rochester and Albany, though they're positioned differently relative to downtown. I imagine I-87 as being similar to I-390, I-787 to I-590, I-90 to I-490, NY 7 to NY 104, and the Berkshire Spur to the Thruway (one could also make a case for I-890/NY 890 to NY 531).
I was starting to see an upside down version of Rochester, but then NY 7 / NY 104 threw me off.
I guess my other two questions are: where does free I-90 fit into it, is it part of the I-490 comparison? And where would the theoretical downtown Rochester be if it was in Albany's network?
I basically could put all freeway networks in three general categories:
Neat and tidy, usually with a beltway and several radii.
Columbus, Indy, Houston, Atlanta, probably Buffalo.
Also Des Moines and MSP, even though they lack a beltway per se.
Somewhat organized, but not a defined, by-the-book structure. Usually quite functional and can be aesthetically pleasing.
Rochester, Detroit, Little Rock, Portland, Salt Lake City
No patterns or structure whatsoever. Anything goes.
Pittsburgh, Scranton, Tri-cities NC, Montreal.
I would say NYC, but fear the blowback
Quote from: ilpt4u on August 04, 2019, 08:32:48 PM
I always thought Indy and Columbus, OH are similar...and had the Downtown Indy Loop happened, would have been moreso
They are nearly identical cities. Similar skylines, similar population,weather,etc.
Quote from: webny99 on August 05, 2019, 10:49:11 PM
Quote from: vdeane on August 05, 2019, 12:52:18 PM
Rochester and Albany, though they're positioned differently relative to downtown. I imagine I-87 as being similar to I-390, I-787 to I-590, I-90 to I-490, NY 7 to NY 104, and the Berkshire Spur to the Thruway (one could also make a case for I-890/NY 890 to NY 531).
I was starting to see an upside down version of Rochester, but then NY 7 / NY 104 threw me off.
I guess my other two questions are: where does free I-90 fit into it, is it part of the I-490 comparison? And where would the theoretical downtown Rochester be if it was in Albany's network?
Yeah, free 90 would be part of the I-490 comparison. As for downtown, probably around exit 5A, especially if the unbuilt Mid-Crosstown Arterial is viewed as similar to unbilt I-390 to downtown Rochester.
EDIT: It's actually amazing how far the comparison goes... pre-Cohoes Boulevard NY 787 and pre-Sea Breeze Drive NY 590 are pretty similar too!
Quote from: webny99 on August 05, 2019, 11:07:19 PM
I basically could put all freeway networks in three general categories:
Neat and tidy, usually with a beltway and several radii.
Columbus, Indy, Houston, Atlanta, probably Buffalo.
Also Des Moines and MSP, even though they lack a beltway per se.
Somewhat organized, but not a defined, by-the-book structure. Usually quite functional and can be aesthetically pleasing.
Rochester, Detroit, Little Rock, Portland, Salt Lake City
No patterns or structure whatsoever. Anything goes.
Pittsburgh, Scranton, Tri-cities NC, Montreal.
I would say NYC, but fear the blowback
If you separated Dallas and Fort Worth, you could count each as "neat and tidy." Each has a loop with radii (2 in the case of Dallas with the Bush). Between the two there are several well-defined east-west freeway corridors (I-20, I-30, 183 and 114).
It's when you get out a little ways where things get a little messy like the diagonal Sam Rayburn Tollway, segments of highway in various states of construction, etc.
I've always thought Denver and Calgary are very similar
Quote from: Revive 755 on August 04, 2019, 09:37:15 PM
* No semi-diagonal route running southwestward from downtown Milwaukee (I-55 in Chicagoland)
What about I-43?
Quote from: Verlanka on August 07, 2019, 05:14:28 AM
Quote from: Revive 755 on August 04, 2019, 09:37:15 PM
* No semi-diagonal route running southwestward from downtown Milwaukee (I-55 in Chicagoland)
What about I-43?
I can see it. I-41 looks like 90, I-94 for 290/88, and I-43 for 55.
Quote from: Verlanka on August 07, 2019, 05:14:28 AM
Quote from: Revive 755 on August 04, 2019, 09:37:15 PM
* No semi-diagonal route running southwestward from downtown Milwaukee (I-55 in Chicagoland)
What about I-43?
I see I-43 more like I-80 until maybe WI 164.
Quote from: Road Hog on August 06, 2019, 01:13:04 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 05, 2019, 11:07:19 PM
I basically could put all freeway networks in three general categories:
Neat and tidy, usually with a beltway and several radii.
Columbus, Indy, Houston, Atlanta, probably Buffalo.
Also Des Moines and MSP, even though they lack a beltway per se.
Somewhat organized, but not a defined, by-the-book structure. Usually quite functional and can be aesthetically pleasing.
Rochester, Detroit, Little Rock, Portland, Salt Lake City
No patterns or structure whatsoever. Anything goes.
Pittsburgh, Scranton, Tri-cities NC, Montreal.
I would say NYC, but fear the blowback
If you separated Dallas and Fort Worth, you could count each as "neat and tidy." Each has a loop with radii (2 in the case of Dallas with the Bush). Between the two there are several well-defined east-west freeway corridors (I-20, I-30, 183 and 114).
It's when you get out a little ways where things get a little messy like the diagonal Sam Rayburn Tollway, segments of highway in various states of construction, etc.
The highway network around Dallas/Fort Worth looks like a penis and a scrotum. :)
Quote from: Gnutella on August 14, 2019, 04:54:16 AM
Quote from: Road Hog on August 06, 2019, 01:13:04 PM
If you separated Dallas and Fort Worth, you could count each as "neat and tidy." Each has a loop with radii (2 in the case of Dallas with the Bush). Between the two there are several well-defined east-west freeway corridors (I-20, I-30, 183 and 114).
It's when you get out a little ways where things get a little messy like the diagonal Sam Rayburn Tollway, segments of highway in various states of construction, etc.
The highway network around Dallas/Fort Worth looks like a penis and a scrotum. :)
The loop around Louisville (I-64, I-264, I-71) looks like a stomach.
Quote from: Gnutella on August 14, 2019, 04:54:16 AM
The highway network around Dallas/Fort Worth looks like a penis and a scrotum. :)
Thanks for sharing.
Quote from: SteveG1988 on August 06, 2019, 06:47:00 AM
Quote from: ilpt4u on August 04, 2019, 08:32:48 PM
I always thought Indy and Columbus, OH are similar...and had the Downtown Indy Loop happened, would have been moreso
They are nearly identical cities. Similar skylines, similar population,weather,etc.
To the casual observer, you might think so. However the cities are quite different. Both are state capitols, but Indianapolis is the dominant city in Indiana, while Columbus is at best Ohio's third most significant metropolis. Columbus is basically just an overgrown college town with only one major professional sports team (the Blue Jackets), while Indy has the Pacers, the Colts, and the Fever... as well as a little thing called the Indianapolis 500. Oh, I guess you can include the MLS Crew for the city named after a racist European invader, that is IF you count soccer as a "major" professional sport. :sombrero: Indy has the world's largest Children's Museum, Columbus has Ohio State (for what that's worth :sleep:). When I-465 was built in the late 1960s it was almost entirely 3 lanes in each direction, a distinction that I-270 couldn't make until the early 2000s. Another significant highway difference between the cities is that Columbus has state route freeways, while all of Indy's freeways (except for US 31 in Hamilton County) are Interstates.
All that being said, I used to work for a company based in Columbus (OH) and I have spent significant over time there. It is a pleasant city with friendly people, and except for their hang-up over the word "The" :pan:, they are wonderful folks. Our two cities share a bond as "flyover country" to many on our coasts, but we "No Coasters" do just fine without those snobs. The Midwest (no, NOT you St. Louis) and Big Ten RULE (BTW, Indy has access to TWO Big Ten schools within 50 miles, not just one).
Quote from: SSR_317 on August 17, 2019, 12:35:48 PM
The Midwest (no, NOT you St. Louis) and Big Ten RULE
I could ask how and why STL is not a Midwest city...
Quote from: SSR_317 on August 17, 2019, 12:35:48 PM
Quote from: SteveG1988 on August 06, 2019, 06:47:00 AM
Quote from: ilpt4u on August 04, 2019, 08:32:48 PM
I always thought Indy and Columbus, OH are similar...and had the Downtown Indy Loop happened, would have been moreso
They are nearly identical cities. Similar skylines, similar population,weather,etc.
To the casual observer, you might think so. However the cities are quite different. Both are state capitols, but Indianapolis is the dominant city in Indiana, while Columbus is at best Ohio's third most significant metropolis. Columbus is basically just an overgrown college town with only one major professional sports team (the Blue Jackets), while Indy has the Pacers, the Colts, and the Fever... as well as a little thing called the Indianapolis 500. Oh, I guess you can include the MLS Crew for the city named after a racist European invader, that is IF you count soccer as a "major" professional sport. :sombrero: Indy has the world's largest Children's Museum, Columbus has Ohio State (for what that's worth :sleep:). When I-465 was built in the late 1960s it was almost entirely 3 lanes in each direction, a distinction that I-270 couldn't make until the early 2000s. Another significant highway difference between the cities is that Columbus has state route freeways, while all of Indy's freeways (except for US 31 in Hamilton County) are Interstates.
All that being said, I used to work for a company based in Columbus (OH) and I have spent significant over time there. It is a pleasant city with friendly people, and except for their hang-up over the word "The" :pan:, they are wonderful folks. Our two cities share a bond as "flyover country" to many on our coasts, but we "No Coasters" do just fine without those snobs. The Midwest (no, NOT you St. Louis) and Big Ten RULE (BTW, Indy has access to TWO Big Ten schools within 50 miles, not just one).
You leave out MLS, meanwhile, WTF are the "Fever"?
Quote from: SectorZ on August 17, 2019, 08:38:41 PM
Quote from: SSR_317 on August 17, 2019, 12:35:48 PM
Quote from: SteveG1988 on August 06, 2019, 06:47:00 AM
Quote from: ilpt4u on August 04, 2019, 08:32:48 PM
I always thought Indy and Columbus, OH are similar...and had the Downtown Indy Loop happened, would have been moreso
They are nearly identical cities. Similar skylines, similar population,weather,etc.
To the casual observer, you might think so. However the cities are quite different. Both are state capitols, but Indianapolis is the dominant city in Indiana, while Columbus is at best Ohio's third most significant metropolis. Columbus is basically just an overgrown college town with only one major professional sports team (the Blue Jackets), while Indy has the Pacers, the Colts, and the Fever... as well as a little thing called the Indianapolis 500. Oh, I guess you can include the MLS Crew for the city named after a racist European invader, that is IF you count soccer as a "major" professional sport. :sombrero: Indy has the world's largest Children's Museum, Columbus has Ohio State (for what that's worth :sleep:). When I-465 was built in the late 1960s it was almost entirely 3 lanes in each direction, a distinction that I-270 couldn't make until the early 2000s. Another significant highway difference between the cities is that Columbus has state route freeways, while all of Indy's freeways (except for US 31 in Hamilton County) are Interstates.
All that being said, I used to work for a company based in Columbus (OH) and I have spent significant over time there. It is a pleasant city with friendly people, and except for their hang-up over the word "The" :pan:, they are wonderful folks. Our two cities share a bond as "flyover country" to many on our coasts, but we "No Coasters" do just fine without those snobs. The Midwest (no, NOT you St. Louis) and Big Ten RULE (BTW, Indy has access to TWO Big Ten schools within 50 miles, not just one).
You leave out MLS, meanwhile, WTF are the "Fever"?
WNBA
You can't just rank the WNBA as higher than the MLS. That's just not how it works.
Quote from: Henry on August 05, 2019, 12:15:09 PM
Portland and Seattle
Doubly so, if I-90 had been finished to SR 99, and the Bayshore Freeway completed, in Seattle. And the Prescott Freeway completed in Portland.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 05, 2019, 05:57:39 PM
Phoenix and Las Vegas seem to both be going for the concept of using single numeric designations as a "Loop" of sorts regarding freeway numbering.
Phoenix and Las Vegas can be similar because both cities aren't particularly constrained by local geography. They are, in effect, "Huge cities in the middle of nowhere". Cities on a lake (like Chicago, or Cleveland, or Buffalo), river (like most of the larger mid-West cities) or on a coast or bay (like about half of the large cities in the US) all will have quirks that make it unlikely that their freeway networks would be repeated.
Quote from: michravera on August 18, 2019, 01:45:09 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 05, 2019, 05:57:39 PM
Phoenix and Las Vegas seem to both be going for the concept of using single numeric designations as a "Loop" of sorts regarding freeway numbering.
Phoenix and Las Vegas can be similar because both cities aren't particularly constrained by local geography. They are, in effect, "Huge cities in the middle of nowhere". Cities on a lake (like Chicago, or Cleveland, or Buffalo), river (like most of the larger mid-West cities) or on a coast or bay (like about half of the large cities in the US) all will have quirks that make it unlikely that their freeway networks would be repeated.
Both metro areas are blocked by mountains in some places.
Quote from: 1 on August 18, 2019, 01:51:54 PM
Quote from: michravera on August 18, 2019, 01:45:09 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 05, 2019, 05:57:39 PM
Phoenix and Las Vegas seem to both be going for the concept of using single numeric designations as a "Loop" of sorts regarding freeway numbering.
Phoenix and Las Vegas can be similar because both cities aren't particularly constrained by local geography. They are, in effect, "Huge cities in the middle of nowhere". Cities on a lake (like Chicago, or Cleveland, or Buffalo), river (like most of the larger mid-West cities) or on a coast or bay (like about half of the large cities in the US) all will have quirks that make it unlikely that their freeway networks would be repeated.
Both metro areas are blocked by mountains in some places.
I would say a more accurate way of describing Phoenix and Las Vegas is that both were designed with modern city planning in mind. Both have similar grid patterns that was planned from a very early era to network outwards. Rather than shoving a freeway (for the most part) through the heart of a developed area like an older city the freeway networks were planned more the outskirts in a beltway fashion near the areas of projected growth. While outward growth is being gradually constrained by mountain ranges both Phoenix and Las Vegas do lie within large valleys.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 18, 2019, 02:05:54 PM
Quote from: 1 on August 18, 2019, 01:51:54 PM
Quote from: michravera on August 18, 2019, 01:45:09 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 05, 2019, 05:57:39 PM
Phoenix and Las Vegas seem to both be going for the concept of using single numeric designations as a "Loop" of sorts regarding freeway numbering.
Phoenix and Las Vegas can be similar because both cities aren't particularly constrained by local geography. They are, in effect, "Huge cities in the middle of nowhere". Cities on a lake (like Chicago, or Cleveland, or Buffalo), river (like most of the larger mid-West cities) or on a coast or bay (like about half of the large cities in the US) all will have quirks that make it unlikely that their freeway networks would be repeated.
Both metro areas are blocked by mountains in some places.
I would say a more accurate way of describing Phoenix and Las Vegas is that both were designed with modern city planning in mind. Both have similar grid patterns that was planned from a very early era to network outwards. Rather than shoving a freeway (for the most part) through the heart of a developed area like an older city the freeway networks were planned more the outskirts in a beltway fashion near the areas of projected growth. While outward growth is being gradually constrained by mountain ranges both Phoenix and Las Vegas do lie within large valleys.
Both cities have a clear radius of about 50 km with no real mountains that would constrain growth. Colorado Springs has mountains. Reno has mountains. I would even say that Bakersfield, Fresno, and Sacramento have mountains before I would say so about Las Vegas and Phoenix. Las Vegas and Phoenix barely have rivers or lakes.
Quote from: michravera on August 19, 2019, 11:38:33 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 18, 2019, 02:05:54 PM
Quote from: 1 on August 18, 2019, 01:51:54 PM
Quote from: michravera on August 18, 2019, 01:45:09 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 05, 2019, 05:57:39 PM
Phoenix and Las Vegas seem to both be going for the concept of using single numeric designations as a "Loop" of sorts regarding freeway numbering.
Phoenix and Las Vegas can be similar because both cities aren't particularly constrained by local geography. They are, in effect, "Huge cities in the middle of nowhere". Cities on a lake (like Chicago, or Cleveland, or Buffalo), river (like most of the larger mid-West cities) or on a coast or bay (like about half of the large cities in the US) all will have quirks that make it unlikely that their freeway networks would be repeated.
Both metro areas are blocked by mountains in some places.
I would say a more accurate way of describing Phoenix and Las Vegas is that both were designed with modern city planning in mind. Both have similar grid patterns that was planned from a very early era to network outwards. Rather than shoving a freeway (for the most part) through the heart of a developed area like an older city the freeway networks were planned more the outskirts in a beltway fashion near the areas of projected growth. While outward growth is being gradually constrained by mountain ranges both Phoenix and Las Vegas do lie within large valleys.
Both cities have a clear radius of about 50 km with no real mountains that would constrain growth. Colorado Springs has mountains. Reno has mountains. I would even say that Bakersfield, Fresno, and Sacramento have mountains before I would say so about Las Vegas and Phoenix. Las Vegas and Phoenix barely have rivers or lakes.
Actually Phoenix does have the Salt River which affects the grid to a large degree in the East Valley, not so much with the smaller rivers. Sacramento and Fresno are more restricted by rivers on top of farm land than the Sierras. Bakersfield backs right up to the Sierras on it's eastern boundary.
Quote from: ilpt4u on August 17, 2019, 08:07:33 PM
Quote from: SSR_317 on August 17, 2019, 12:35:48 PM
The Midwest (no, NOT you St. Louis) and Big Ten RULE
I could ask how and why STL is not a Midwest city...
Simple. Illinois was part of the Northwest Territories, Missouri was not. You could never own another human being in the Midwest, while in Saint Louis you could. The Great Planes begin at the Mississippi River, where the Midwest ends.
Quote from: SectorZ on August 17, 2019, 08:38:41 PM
Quote from: SSR_317 on August 17, 2019, 12:35:48 PM
Quote from: SteveG1988 on August 06, 2019, 06:47:00 AM
Quote from: ilpt4u on August 04, 2019, 08:32:48 PM
I always thought Indy and Columbus, OH are similar...and had the Downtown Indy Loop happened, would have been moreso
They are nearly identical cities. Similar skylines, similar population,weather,etc.
To the casual observer, you might think so. However the cities are quite different. Both are state capitols, but Indianapolis is the dominant city in Indiana, while Columbus is at best Ohio's third most significant metropolis. Columbus is basically just an overgrown college town with only one major professional sports team (the Blue Jackets), while Indy has the Pacers, the Colts, and the Fever... as well as a little thing called the Indianapolis 500. Oh, I guess you can include the MLS Crew for the city named after a racist European invader, that is IF you count soccer as a "major" professional sport. :sombrero: Indy has the world's largest Children's Museum, Columbus has Ohio State (for what that's worth :sleep:). When I-465 was built in the late 1960s it was almost entirely 3 lanes in each direction, a distinction that I-270 couldn't make until the early 2000s. Another significant highway difference between the cities is that Columbus has state route freeways, while all of Indy's freeways (except for US 31 in Hamilton County) are Interstates.
All that being said, I used to work for a company based in Columbus (OH) and I have spent significant over time there. It is a pleasant city with friendly people, and except for their hang-up over the word "The" :pan:, they are wonderful folks. Our two cities share a bond as "flyover country" to many on our coasts, but we "No Coasters" do just fine without those snobs. The Midwest (no, NOT you St. Louis) and Big Ten RULE (BTW, Indy has access to TWO Big Ten schools within 50 miles, not just one).
You leave out MLS, meanwhile, WTF are the "Fever"?
I kid the fans of soccer, it is a great sport (just not that much in THIS country). The Indiana Fever have been a major league basketball team in the WNBA for twenty years now. Now you know.
Quote from: thspfc on August 18, 2019, 08:44:22 AM
You can't just rank the WNBA as higher than the MLS. That's just not how it works.
At least according to YOU. I can rank them any way I please, you are free in this country (for now) to disagree. Now let's move on and talk about highways & transportation.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 19, 2019, 03:01:00 PM
Quote from: michravera on August 19, 2019, 11:38:33 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 18, 2019, 02:05:54 PM
Quote from: 1 on August 18, 2019, 01:51:54 PM
Quote from: michravera on August 18, 2019, 01:45:09 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 05, 2019, 05:57:39 PM
Phoenix and Las Vegas seem to both be going for the concept of using single numeric designations as a "Loop" of sorts regarding freeway numbering.
Phoenix and Las Vegas can be similar because both cities aren't particularly constrained by local geography. They are, in effect, "Huge cities in the middle of nowhere". Cities on a lake (like Chicago, or Cleveland, or Buffalo), river (like most of the larger mid-West cities) or on a coast or bay (like about half of the large cities in the US) all will have quirks that make it unlikely that their freeway networks would be repeated.
Both metro areas are blocked by mountains in some places.
I would say a more accurate way of describing Phoenix and Las Vegas is that both were designed with modern city planning in mind. Both have similar grid patterns that was planned from a very early era to network outwards. Rather than shoving a freeway (for the most part) through the heart of a developed area like an older city the freeway networks were planned more the outskirts in a beltway fashion near the areas of projected growth. While outward growth is being gradually constrained by mountain ranges both Phoenix and Las Vegas do lie within large valleys.
Both cities have a clear radius of about 50 km with no real mountains that would constrain growth. Colorado Springs has mountains. Reno has mountains. I would even say that Bakersfield, Fresno, and Sacramento have mountains before I would say so about Las Vegas and Phoenix. Las Vegas and Phoenix barely have rivers or lakes.
Actually Phoenix does have the Salt River which affects the grid to a large degree in the East Valley, not so much with the smaller rivers. Sacramento and Fresno are more restricted by rivers on top of farm land than the Sierras. Bakersfield backs right up to the Sierras on it's eastern boundary.
Having spent quite a bit of time in both cities over the past 35 years, I would say the factor that influenced them most would be the relative late date their freeways have been built compared to most other major metropolises in the USA. Thus, they learned SOME of the lessons that other places learned the hard way. Unfortunately, they did not learn ALL of the available lessons.
BTW, I was actually visiting Phoenix the week their original "Freeway Referendum" was passed in the 1980s.
Somewhat similar between San Antonio, TX and Indianapolis, IN when comparing the overall network and the freeways coming in and out, if you get rid of I-74 and the future I-69 southern connection, and only count the freeway segments outside the beltway. Inside, it's completely different than San Antonio.
I-465 is similar to I-410
I-65 North is similar to I-10 West
I-65 South is similar to I-37 South
I-70 West is similar to I-35 South
I-70 East is similar to I-10 East
I-69 North is similar to I-35 North
US-31 North is similar to US-281 North
I was on the road yesterday and realized that Syracuse and Springfield, MA have quite a few similarities. I-91 is like the future route of I-81 along I-481, I-391 is like an upside-down version of future business loop 81, I-291 is like I-690, and I-90 is like, well, itself.
I know I also already brought up Albany/Rochester, but I thought I'd post it again as I've refined my thoughts a bit. I-87 is like I-390/NY 390, I-787 is like I-590/NY 590, NY 7 is like a completed NY 104, free 90 is like a flipped I-490, and the Berkshire Spur and Thruway part of I-90 are like the Thruway. The South Mall is even kinda like NY 204, if the part of NY 204 done was the I-390 end instead of the I-490 end (sure, it connects to the interstate I related to I-590, but I did also note that free 90 is like a flipped I-490).
Quote from: vdeane on January 15, 2024, 02:22:11 PM
I was on the road yesterday and realized that Syracuse and Springfield, MA have quite a few similarities. I-91 is like the future route of I-81 along I-481, I-391 is like an upside-down version of future business loop 81, I-291 is like I-690, and I-90 is like, well, itself.
Not really. I-91 goes right through the middle of Springfield, so it's more like current I-81.
I was actually thinking about I-291 and how it's not a bypass of Springfield the other day. Just a shortcut to the Pike from the south. Kind of a weird placement for it.
I-391 is just a spur into Holyoke, passing through Chicopee.
Wonder what it would have been like if I-91 had been routed on the east side of Springfield somehow (it would still need to pass through the gap between Mount Tom and the Holyoke Range). Getting to the Big E would be a nightmare and Longmeadowans would have been ticked.
Quote from: Rothman on January 15, 2024, 03:39:38 PM
Quote from: vdeane on January 15, 2024, 02:22:11 PM
I was on the road yesterday and realized that Syracuse and Springfield, MA have quite a few similarities. I-91 is like the future route of I-81 along I-481, I-391 is like an upside-down version of future business loop 81, I-291 is like I-690, and I-90 is like, well, itself.
Not really. I-91 goes right through the middle of Springfield, so it's more like current I-81.
I was actually thinking about I-291 and how it's not a bypass of Springfield the other day. Just a shortcut to the Pike from the south. Kind of a weird placement for it.
I-391 is just a spur into Holyoke, passing through Chicopee.
Wonder what it would have been like if I-91 had been routed on the east side of Springfield somehow (it would still need to pass through the gap between Mount Tom and the Holyoke Range). Getting to the Big E would be a nightmare and Longmeadowans would have been ticked.
I was going by appearance/layout, not function, position to city centers, etc. Like Syracuse, there is a freeway that goes north-south before abruptly veering off to the side to go around something (in this case, Holyoke) while the continuation of the north-south route does not remain a freeway back to the route that split off from it. That's what made me think of Syracuse. It's still not a perfect match, but that's probably why I didn't think of it until recently, whereas the Albany/Rochester comparison has been noticed for years.
Speaking of the Albany/Rochester comparison, if things like function and position relative to city centers are necessary criteria, it's out too. Free 90 doesn't go downtown like I-490 does.
Quote from: vdeane on January 15, 2024, 09:37:02 PM
Speaking of the Albany/Rochester comparison, if things like function and position relative to city centers are necessary criteria, it's out too. Free 90 doesn't go downtown like I-490 does.
I understand the Albany/Rochester comparison at a macro level, but generally I think Rochester is pretty unique in how the main 2di stays well clear of the metro (really only touching it at two points, Henrietta and Victor/Farmington), yet still has very good Interstate connectivity to the metro. Most comparisons that I can think of either have the 2di come much closer to downtown or lack the multiple outbound Interstate options that Rochester has.
Since this thread has returned somewhat, here are some that I've noticed.
Constrained by Greenbelt & Water — Los Angeles, Toronto, and Miami appear to have a similar grid pattern of freeways towards the city center, but a radial setup once you leave the city limits. Bypasses and beltways exist in good numbers, but are constrained by geography (including the Oceans, Lake Ontario, Conservation Areas, etc). Similar comparisons can be made with Tampa/St Pete/Bradenton and Oakland/SF/San Jose.
Incomplete Beltways & Radial Center — Both Orlando and Denver have beltway corridors that aren't fully complete (though Wekieva will be opening soon), and sets of freeways that intersect in both downtown, and the outer suburbs. Also, the outer beltways are designed for high-speed thru movements.
Spiral Beltways (Future) — It appears that both Jacksonville and Orlando are planned to have a system of beltways that will make a spiral shape, rather than a series of concentric rings like Houston. Orlando is planned to have the Poinciana extension, and Jacksonville is planned to have I-795 and SR-23. I heard a rumor that I-795 is planned to continue along SR-23, but I don't know how that could be the case given the new alignment of SR-23. Does anyone have any more info on this?
Beijing and Houston. The inner ring roads are pretty square, while the outer road(s) are more circular.
For Baltimore and D.C., they both obviously have their beltways, I-795 equates to I-270, I-70 lines up with I-66, and I-95 of course is I-95.
Quote from: epzik8 on January 17, 2024, 05:49:25 PM
For Baltimore and D.C., they both obviously have their beltways, I-795 equates to I-270, I-70 lines up with I-66, and I-95 of course is I-95.
And I-97 is I-595, right?