Deposits on soda pop bottles

[cjk374]

I remember as a small child you could buy all kinds of sodas in glass REFILLABLE bottles. It would even say on the neck of the bottles, "MONEY BACK BOTTLE" & "RETURN FOR DEPOSIT". And IMO, they tasted so much better coming from a glass bottle than a plastic bottle or aluminum can.

But times are different now. There is no such thing as a returnable container. I also thought there was no such thing as a deposit on a container. But after reading some of the responses in the Coke Freestyle thread, someone mentioned paying a deposit on a soda purchase.

What is that all about?  I thought that was a thing of the past.

[SP Cook]

There are several states that have the "bottle bill" which monetizes empty bottles.  The postal abbreviations of the states that do are generally on the packages.   This is an anti-litter / enviro move of questionable effectiveness. 

This is different from refillable bottles.  And here is why the refillable bottle for soda/pop went away.  The completion of the interstates and the economy of scale.  Back in the day, each soda/pop company had a bottling plant in any city of any size at all.  The product was a two-way product.  The salesman delivered filled bottles and collected empties, which were sorted and washed locally and used over and over.  Today the product is a one-way product.  The product is bottled at a mega-plant perhaps 100s of miles away.  Obviously shipping heavy glass empties back is not economically possible, so there you go.

In my area, the refillable bottle died out about 1987 or so. 

[jeffandnicole]

I remember as a small child you could buy all kinds of sodas in glass REFILLABLE bottles. It would even say on the neck of the bottles, "MONEY BACK BOTTLE" & "RETURN FOR DEPOSIT". And IMO, they tasted so much better coming from a glass bottle than a plastic bottle or aluminum can.

But times are different now. There is no such thing as a returnable container.

I'm currently in Punta Cana. They absolutely still have refillable bottles...I'm drinking from one in my room right now.

[hotdogPi]

I generally see things like:

(for the most part, state names are probably not accurate, this is just a guess)
CA, CT, CO, FL, HI, MA, ME, NY 5¢, MI 10¢

There are different lists of states depending on the exact type.

Found an actual can (not bottle): CT-HI-IA-MA-ME-NY-OR-VT 5¢ MI 10¢

[Brandon]

There are several states that have the "bottle bill" which monetizes empty bottles.  The postal abbreviations of the states that do are generally on the packages.   This is an anti-litter / enviro move of questionable effectiveness.

It's a measure of very good effectiveness.  One only need compare the roadsides in Illinois (no deposit law) and Michigan (10 cent deposit law).  Illinois roadside are filled with cans and bottles while Michigan one are much, much cleaner.  I dearly wish we had such a deposit law here in Illinois. 

This is different from refillable bottles.  And here is why the refillable bottle for soda/pop went away.  The completion of the interstates and the economy of scale.  Back in the day, each soda/pop company had a bottling plant in any city of any size at all.  The product was a two-way product.  The salesman delivered filled bottles and collected empties, which were sorted and washed locally and used over and over.  Today the product is a one-way product.  The product is bottled at a mega-plant perhaps 100s of miles away.  Obviously shipping heavy glass empties back is not economically possible, so there you go.

Not quite accurate.  The refillable glass bottle went away due to costs involved with disinfecting each and every bottle prior to the next use.  Then you have to have replacement bottle for those that are chipped or broken.  Glass that heavy is expensive to produce.  Quite frankly, it's a hell of a cheaper to use non-refillable plastic and aluminum (and thin glass for beer) bottles and cans.

[roadman]

I am old enough to remember when "No Deposit No Return" was first introduced, and was actually touted by the marketing departments of the soda producers as a consumer benefit.

[kphoger]

My boss used to work for Coca-Cola, and he always dreaded filling the reusable bottles. They sat outside, collecting gunk and grime, so they had to be cleaned. Some people apparently found it humorous to put stuff in the empties, too, and one employee apparently tossed a half-smoked cigar in a bottle. Combine that with QC inspectors who weren't always the most attentive, and who knows what ended up in a bottle of Coke.

I far prefer the taste of soda from glass, to the point that I hardly ever even use a plastic cup. And I can walk a block from my house to a Mexican bakery and occasionally buy soda in a 20-year-old refillable bottle imported from Mexico. I can't refill it here, of course, but it's fun to see the old labels.

[jeffandnicole]

I generally see things like:

(for the most part, state names are probably not accurate, this is just a guess)
CA, CT, CO, FL, HI, MA, ME, NY 5¢, MI 10¢

There are different lists of states depending on the exact type.

Found an actual can (not bottle): CT-HI-IA-MA-ME-NY-OR-VT 5¢ MI 10¢

Delaware has a 5c deposit on plastic bottles, but not cans. From what I've seen, people rarely return them.

[MNHighwayMan]

There are several states that have the "bottle bill" which monetizes empty bottles.  The postal abbreviations of the states that do are generally on the packages.   This is an anti-litter / enviro move of questionable effectiveness.

It's a measure of very good effectiveness.  One only need compare the roadsides in Illinois (no deposit law) and Michigan (10 cent deposit law).  Illinois roadside are filled with cans and bottles while Michigan one are much, much cleaner.  I dearly wish we had such a deposit law here in Illinois. 

Yes, they are. Iowa, with a five-cent deposit on any container for carbonated or alcoholic beverages, is one of the leading states in the nation as far as recycled cans/bottles goes. That being said, I can't be assed to bring my empties to the (usually disgusting) redemption center for my deposit back. I just chuck them in with the rest of my recyclables. I think of it as a convenience fee.

[briantroutman]

California has such a law, and the deposit is called CRV: California Redemption Value. It applies to cans, bottles, and jugs of certain products (soda, beer, bottled water) but not others (wine, non-carbonated juice, milk). I don't know if CRV has any meaningful effect on littering, but based on my own observations, most middle class people don't bother with separating CRV from their other recyclables.

What does happen, though, is that scroungers dig through public trash cans and suburbanites' curbside recycling bins looking for CRV containers. I've seen scroungers pick up cans by the side of the road (a positive result), but I've also seen them empty trash cans onto the sidewalk piece by piece in search for CRV, leaving a pile of garbage behind (a not so positive result).

I like the idea in theory, but as someone who obsessively recycles everything I can anyway, CRV amounted to an extra tax on certain types of products. Various retailers and recycling centers are designated CRV redemption locations, but the law only requires them to actually count a certain number of containers by day. Above that number, they're allowed to simply weigh the containers and use a formula to calculate the amount due.

When I'd take in my CRV containers for redemption, it always seemed as if I was getting shortchanged. I'd save up hundreds of crushed aluminum cans for months, make the drive to the recycling center, and walk out with a check for something like $9.86. Hardly worth the time.

This thread topic reminds me of a little known fact: The famous "crying Indian"  PSA–widely considered to be a touchstone of the environmental movement that was just coalescing in the early '70s–was actually one of the most shameless pieces of greenwashing in American history. The sponsor of the ad, Keep America Beautiful, was (and is) not some kind of altruistic band of tree-huggers but actually a trade association comprised of some of the world's largest litter producers, including soft drink companies and breweries. At the time, KAB was most concerned with repealing deposit laws–thereby creating more litter.

And in that context, the "crying Indian"  ad is even more audacious. While KAB was lobbying for the laws that would encourage more litter, they were at the same time wagging their collective finger at the American public, saying Litter is YOUR fault.

[Brandon]

When I'd take in my CRV containers for redemption, it always seemed as if I was getting shortchanged. I'd save up hundreds of crushed aluminum cans for months, make the drive to the recycling center, and walk out with a check for something like $9.86. Hardly worth the time.

A bit different than in Michigan.  In Michigan, you take your cans and bottles to a grocer (like Kroger, Meijer, or even Walmart) and there is a bottle return center at the grocer.  The machine will spit out a slip for the value of the cans and bottles that you can then take with you to redeem at the register.  The idea is that since you return your cans and bottles at the grocer, you can then buy more while you're there.  Thus, the deposit becomes more of a revolving thing - the last redemption pays for the deposit on the new pop or beer.

[oscar]

California has such a law, and the deposit is called CRV: California Redemption Value. It applies to cans, bottles, and jugs of certain products (soda, beer, bottled water) but not others (wine, non-carbonated juice, milk). I don't know if CRV has any meaningful effect on littering, but based on my own observations, most middle class people don't bother with separating CRV from their other recyclables.

What does happen, though, is that scroungers dig through public trash cans and suburbanites' curbside recycling bins looking for CRV containers. I've seen scroungers pick up cans by the side of the road (a positive result), but I've also seen them empty trash cans onto the sidewalk piece by piece in search for CRV, leaving a pile of garbage behind (a not so positive result).

I like the idea in theory, but as someone who obsessively recycles everything I can anyway, CRV amounted to an extra tax on certain types of products. Various retailers and recycling centers are designated CRV redemption locations, but the law only requires them to actually count a certain number of containers by day. Above that number, they're allowed to simply weigh the containers and use a formula to calculate the amount due.

When I'd take in my CRV containers for redemption, it always seemed as if I was getting shortchanged. I'd save up hundreds of crushed aluminum cans for months, make the drive to the recycling center, and walk out with a check for something like $9.86. Hardly worth the time.

As an obsessive recycler, I am unimpressed with the California CRV program. Main problem is the scarcity of redemption locations. In other states, many Walmarts have redemption centers with machines to take your cans and give you a receipt to take to a cashier. Redemption centers are harder to find in California, at least for tourists, and the ones I have found have limited hours. In that state, I'll just save my cans for the next rest area or park with recycling bins, even though I get no CRV refund.

There is some variation among states about the ease of getting redemption center machines to take your out-of-state cans, even ones where you paid a deposit. Iowa and Michigan machines seem to be generous on that. The New England states are more uneven. Oregon (where the deposit at issue is higher, at 10 cents/can), forget it.

[cjk374]

This thread topic reminds me of a little known fact: The famous "crying Indian"  PSA–widely considered to be a touchstone of the environmental movement that was just coalescing in the early '70s–was actually one of the most shameless pieces of greenwashing in American history. The sponsor of the ad, Keep America Beautiful, was (and is) not some kind of altruistic band of tree-huggers but actually a trade association comprised of some of the world's largest litter producers, including soft drink companies and breweries. At the time, KAB was most concerned with repealing deposit laws–thereby creating more litter.

And in that context, the "crying Indian"  ad is even more audacious. While KAB was lobbying for the laws that would encourage more litter, they were at the same time wagging their collective finger at the American public, saying Litter is YOUR fault.

The "crying Indian"'s name was "Iron Eyes" Cody.

[briantroutman]

In Michigan, you take your cans and bottles to a grocer (like Kroger, Meijer, or even Walmart) and there is a bottle return center at the grocer.

In fairness, I should point out that there are relative few automated CRV return kiosks located in California supermarkets.

But the ones that I encountered, at least, have some serious flaws. The return device itself has a cylindrically-shaped chamber, roughly 4 inches in diameter, in which to insert the bottles and cans. So for starters, anything larger than a 1-liter bottle can't be accepted.

Because not every container qualifies for CRV, the machine has to determine eligibility before issuing a refund credit. It does this by scanning the UPC on the bottle and matching it against a database of eligible products. This leads to a host of problems. First, that means that that the UPC must be readable–so crushing cans to save space is not allowed, and if a label has become detached or destroyed, the container will be rejected. And in my experience, the machine fails to read the barcode about one time out of five, forcing you to re-insert the bottle for a re-scan. Finally, I've had a number of bottles (mainly beers from small breweries) get rejected after several attempts as "not eligible" , even though I paid CRV on them. Assumably, they were not in the database.

And even when it works, the system is horribly horribly slow. It goes like this:

Insert can... one one-thousand, two one thousand, three one-thousand... "CAN ACCEPTED" ...one one-thousand, two one thousand, three one-thousand... "CREDIT: $0.05"  

Insert can...one one-thousand, two one thousand, three one-thousand... "READ ERROR" ...can return. Re-insert can...one one-thousand, two one thousand, three one-thousand... "CAN ACCEPTED"  ...one one-thousand, two one thousand, three one-thousand... "CREDIT: $0.10" .

[MNHighwayMan]

That's how it works at major retailers here in Iowa, too. It's also why I don't bother with redeeming them for the deposit. Just chuck 'em into the recycle bin with everything else.

But in any event I'm still all for the program if it reduces littering and waste. I also don't think it's fair to blame bottlers for littering–blame the idiots who think it's okay to chuck their stuff out the window in the first place.

[Duke87]

The other thing worth noting about these deposit programs is they are a source of revenue. If the deposit on a container is not redeemed, the state treasury keeps the 5 cents - not the store where you bought it.


The interesting thing worth noting though, is that whether the machines accept the container is based entirely on the bar code. Sometimes, due to supply logistics, containers with the deposit code on them are sold in a jurisdiction that does not charge a deposit. And sometimes even in a jurisdiction that does, a particular establishment may not be in compliance with the law an not charge the deposit even though they are legally supposed to (common among local small business restaurants and stores in NYC).

The machines cannot tell the difference between these containers and one on which a deposit was actually charged, so it is possible to be cheeky and make 5 cents per container by returning them. This is illegal, of course, but extremely difficult to prove and thus not enforced for anything short of someone outright running a racket doing this.

[Jardine]

Returning cans/bottles has been made difficult enough I don't bother anymore.  I consider the deposit a price increase.

I smash and return in bulk the aluminum, but the plastic stuff goes in the trash.

[Brandon]

The other thing worth noting about these deposit programs is they are a source of revenue. If the deposit on a container is not redeemed, the state treasury keeps the 5 cents - not the store where you bought it.

Maybe that's true in New York, but it is not in Michigan.  In Michigan, the retailer keeps 25% of the deposits not returned (2.5 cents of the container deposit).  Interestingly enough, their return rates are the highest in the US at 94-97%.

[PHLBOS]

Found an actual can (not bottle): CT-HI-IA-MA-ME-NY-OR-VT 5¢ MI 10¢

I've seen similar markings on bottle labels as well.  Such is usually located (in small print) near the bar code.

[roadman]

When I'd take in my CRV containers for redemption, it always seemed as if I was getting shortchanged. I'd save up hundreds of crushed aluminum cans for months, make the drive to the recycling center, and walk out with a check for something like $9.86. Hardly worth the time.

A bit different than in Michigan.  In Michigan, you take your cans and bottles to a grocer (like Kroger, Meijer, or even Walmart) and there is a bottle return center at the grocer.  The machine will spit out a slip for the value of the cans and bottles that you can then take with you to redeem at the register.  The idea is that since you return your cans and bottles at the grocer, you can then buy more while you're there.  Thus, the deposit becomes more of a revolving thing - the last redemption pays for the deposit on the new pop or beer.

That's how it works in Massachusetts.  However, stores are not mandated to accept returns.  Not an issue in the suburbs, where you can usually find a supermarket.  But try redeeming bottles and cans at smaller stores in a city like Boston.  Also, the automatic redemption machines in supermarkets are horribly unreliable, and often out of order.

The other quirk about the Massachusetts bottle law is that it only applies to containers for carbonated beverages.  So a bottle containing Coke can be redeemed, but a bottle containing Poland Springs water cannot.  There was an attempt recently to change that - it ended up on the statewide ballot as an initiative petition, and was voted down, largely due to the right wingers who decried bottle deposits as an unfair tax on people.

from: Brandon on October 12, 2017, 06:54:50 PM

In Michigan, you take your cans and bottles to a grocer (like Kroger, Meijer, or even Walmart) and there is a bottle return center at the grocer.

But the ones that I encountered, at least, have some serious flaws. The return device itself has a cylindrically-shaped chamber, roughly 4 inches in diameter, in which to insert the bottles and cans. So for starters, anything larger than a 1-liter bottle can't be accepted.

Supermarkets in Massachusetts have two types of automated machines - one for bottles and one for cans.  The bottle machines can accept 1 or 2 liter bottles.

[kphoger]

What does happen, though, is that scroungers dig through public trash cans and suburbanites' curbside recycling bins looking for CRV containers. I've seen scroungers pick up cans by the side of the road (a positive result), but I've also seen them empty trash cans onto the sidewalk piece by piece in search for CRV, leaving a pile of garbage behind (a not so positive result).

Hitchhiking through Michigan one time, I got a ride from a couple who said they used to go into a lot in Paw Paw where trucks would sit full of empty bottles overnight, break into the trucks, steal a bunch of bottles, and then redeem them for cash.

[thenetwork]

After Michigan did the 10 cent deposit, Ohio tried a few times to put deposits on cans and bottles, but it never was approved by voters.

In the glass bottle days, Ohio deposits were 10 cents for 16-ounce returnables and 20-cents for 32-oz bottles.  I used to sneak our empties up to our corner store to convert bottles into candy!!!

One of my first jobs was working at a grocery store.  My main jobs were gathering carts, bagging groceries, parcel-pickup (putting grocery bags in peoples cars) and bottle sorting (about 2-1/2 of those tasks are now extinct).

It used to suck when people would bring in oddball brands of pop in the 16 and 32-ounce sizes.  None of the beverage companies would accept them, or at least take them for recycling.  Every once in a while, we would "bury" one in the middle of a crate of returns and get away with it.  Those empties took up a helluva lotta space in the back room of a supermarket.

[kkt]

I wonder if it's worthwhile for the mixed recycling sorters we use to separate out anything with a deposit, so the recycling center gets it instead of the state pocketing it.

[SectorZ]

Bicycling the roads of Massachusetts and New Hampshire, I can tell you that Massachusetts having a bottle deposit and New Hampshire not having one makes zero difference to the amount of crap you find on the sides of the road.

[hbelkins]

One of the things that bothers me is that it's illegal in some states (Michigan comes to mind) to bring in out-of-state bottles to redeem for cash.

On my last trip there, I bought several six-packs of Diet Vernors at a Walmart in Michigan. I paid the deposit on it despite the fact that I would be bringing the pop back to Kentucky to drink and would not be returning bottles for a refund. I don't recycle for several reasons so those plastic bottles got thrown away. Why should it be illegal for me to save bottles from Diet Coke purchased and consumed in Kentucky, where there is no bottle deposit fee on them but they are marked with the Michigan deposit information, for a few weeks prior to my next trip to Michigan to reclaim the money I left there on my previous visit?

There have been attempts to pass such deposit laws in Kentucky and I have always vociferously opposed them.

As concerns the old-style glass bottles, Ale-8 is still produced in those bottles. There are four containers for Ale-8 -- 12-ounce returnable glass bottles, 12-ounce non-returnable glass bottles, 20-ounce non-returnable plastic bottles, and 12-ounce cans. There are people who claim to this day that the beverage in the returnable bottles tastes better than that in the non-returnable bottles. (And cans -- even before Ale-8 went to the other type bottles besides returnable glass, it always tasted different in the cans.) Grocers who sell the returnable bottles require those to be presented to the cashier upon entry to the store for credit or cash.

When I was young, and the returnable bottles ruled the market, we would save or pick up the bottles until we had enough to make it profitable to sell them back to the grocery store. I can remember buying Pepsi products in those bottles up until the mid-1980s.