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I-70 upgrades said to be 15-20 years away

Started by Kniwt, August 04, 2019, 08:46:49 AM

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Kniwt

A long report in today's (Terre Haute) Tribune-Star looks at the problems with I-70 in the western half of the state, and the dismal outlook for any significant improvements.

https://www.tribstar.com/news/news_columns/i--shouldn-t-remain-a-road-to-avoid/article_a3818168-dacf-55f7-a6c3-bbd524575591.html

QuoteLots of Wabash Valley residents fear driving on the local stretch of Interstate 70. And with good reason.

Fatal accidents – several involving semi tractor-trailers crashing into stopped or slowed traffic – have become frequent on I-70 between the Illinois-Indiana border and Indianapolis. Accidents along that 68-mile path outnumbered those on the 66-mile portion east of Indy to the Ohio border in 2016 and 2017, according to the Indiana University Public Policy Institute's statistics. Distracted driving has been cited as a factor in several cases.

Three more fatalities occurred on I-70 west of Indianapolis last month. On Monday, the Vigo County School Corp. announced its buses won't travel on I-70 "because of the significant number of serious accidents."

The VCSC doesn't even want drivers to use I-70 to shuttle buses between schools when students aren't aboard.

... Adding lanes to I-70 – built through Indiana in the mid-1960s – could improve safety, but such a multi-billion-dollar project couldn't be approved, undertaken and completed quickly. "It's not a two- or three-year fix,"  said Jeremy Weir, director of transportation planning for the West Central Indiana Economic Development District. Think 15 to 20 years or more.

... The state sees distracted driving as I-70's root problem, and not I-70's structure. "No highway design can overcome poor decision-making by motorists, such as speeding, reckless and distracted driving, which as been the cause of multiple crashes that have happened on I-70 and other routes in Indiana and across the country this year and in recent years,"  Scott Manning, INDOT's strategic communications director, stated last week.

"Our team is confident in the safety of I-70 as it is built today,"  Manning said. "Having said that, we routinely look at additional safety measures on an ongoing basis that can reduce the risk of serious or fatal injury crashes,"  such as cable barriers.


tdindy88

Yet we can widen I-65 around Lafayette for a few miles and widen I-65 between Seymour and Columbus. I know I-65 needs to be six lanes too, but I never understood the sudden urgency for Seymour to Columbus, the SR 58 exit to Columbus at that, that's not even the important Columbus exit.

At a bare minimum I think I-70 should be six lanes from the Illinois state line to a mile or so east of Exit 11. The part from SR 39 east to SR 267 should be getting widened in a few years from now.

edwaleni

Ask the truckers why distraction is a problem.

It won't be that hard, just sit in the cafe of the Brazil 70 Truck Stop and ask.

Long time or well traveled truckers will tell you that in the urgency of getting more OTR drivers, many firms are skimping on safety.

Many of the drivers aren't paying attention to their rigs and what they are actually doing.  Some complained about a growing language barrier and wonder how some of the drivers can pass their CDL.

They are talking on the phone, listening to music at top volume, watching movies on a pop up screen.  (so are regular car drivers)

The experienced drivers say driving is "work" and you should be focused on "work".

The new generation want to be entertained, occupied and engaged while they do their "work".  And this is the difference.

The accidents in snow ridden states are usually triggered by one issue, but its the distracted drivers that cause the pileups that follow.

This is one reason UPS does not install anything in their cabs but a seat, a steering wheel and a shifter.

I wouldn't be stunned if some state passes a law that makes the first 5 years of a CDL must drive a bare bones rig.

webny99

Rear-end jobs don't just happen out of the blue. There must be a preexisting slowdown causing everyone to hit the brakes. If this is a recurring problem, it is time for a widening. See also: NYS Thruway.

It is interesting how it's mostly north-south interstates that have been getting widened in Ohio, Indiana, Kentucky. I wonder why I-70 and I-64 aren't getting any love, while I-65, I-71, and I-75 top the priority list.

froggie

Quote from: webny99Rear-end jobs don't just happen out of the blue. There must be a preexisting slowdown causing everyone to hit the brakes.

Fully disagree.  All it takes is a speed differential (or someone going above the limit) and the faster vehicle's driver not paying attention.

Beltway

I use I-70 between Dayton OH and Indianapolis, and I-65 to NW Indiana.

Very heavy traffic on those highways, very heavy truck traffic.
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webny99

Quote from: froggie on August 04, 2019, 07:00:49 PM
Quote from: webny99Rear-end jobs don't just happen out of the blue. There must be a preexisting slowdown causing everyone to hit the brakes.
Fully disagree.  All it takes is a speed differential (or someone going above the limit) and the faster vehicle's driver not paying attention.

For someone to get rear ended in completely, 100% free flowing traffic, zero braking downstream involved? I don't think so.

If there's somebody that gets rear ended solely because the guy behind them is inattentive, they obviously weren't traveling at freeway speeds, and thus they themselves are the preexisting slowdown. At high speeds, it takes a big, and sudden, speed differential to evaporate your entire space cushion.

froggie

I'll grant you're younger and thus don't have as much experience, but I've seen what I described on far more than one occasion in what was otherwise free-flowing traffic.

webny99

#8
I guess seeing is believing, so I can't argue with that.

The only cases of someone getting rear ended I've ever witnessed, been involved in, or heard about, are:
(a) when both car's speeds are low (30 mph or less), or (b) when there is a sudden slowdown / speed differential of 30 mph or more between cars (in which case I would argue the underlying conditions were not free-flow).

SSR_317

Maybe if we got the TRAINS off the Interstates and back onto the RAILROAD, where they BELONG, we would have fewer problems and less need to widen freeways.

Verlanka

Quote from: SSR_317 on August 17, 2019, 01:21:10 PM
Maybe if we got the TRAINS off the Interstates and back onto the RAILROAD, where they BELONG
I didn't think it was possible for trains to leave the track and get onto the freeway.

edwaleni

Quote from: Verlanka on August 18, 2019, 05:11:34 AM
Quote from: SSR_317 on August 17, 2019, 01:21:10 PM
Maybe if we got the TRAINS off the Interstates and back onto the RAILROAD, where they BELONG
I didn't think it was possible for trains to leave the track and get onto the freeway.

Not happening unfortunately.

Class 1 railroads have abdicated medium to short haul to trucks.

In fact it will only get worse as CSX just announced they won't bring intermodal out of Chicago to Indy, Columbus, Cincy and few others anymore.  Only to farther out port cities on the east coast. That means more trucks making the short haul out of Chicago to reach docks in Indiana, Ohio and Michigan.  Any shipper that wants intermodal to bypass Chicago will have to use Memphis (at least with CSX) or KCMO with Norfolk Southern.

CSX is trying to compete with trucks when they announced new express service from Rotterdam to Toronto to CN. The trucks can beat them by about an hour if they all left at the same time (which they can't), so trains will have a slim margin to work with.

With railroads trying to please Wall Street and beginning to charge more for car storage, pickup, switching, all items trucking firms don't charge, you will probably see MORE trucks on US freeways, not more moving on Trains.

Trains are moving slowly but most assuredly to things trucks don't do well.  Bulk Aggregates, Hazardous Chems, Fracked Oil, transcon intermodal, oversize loads as an example.

wanderer2575

Quote from: webny99 on August 05, 2019, 08:43:09 AM
Quote from: froggie on August 04, 2019, 07:00:49 PM
Quote from: webny99Rear-end jobs don't just happen out of the blue. There must be a preexisting slowdown causing everyone to hit the brakes.
Fully disagree.  All it takes is a speed differential (or someone going above the limit) and the faster vehicle's driver not paying attention.
If there's somebody that gets rear ended solely because the guy behind them is inattentive, they obviously weren't traveling at freeway speeds, and thus they themselves are the preexisting slowdown. At high speeds, it takes a big, and sudden, speed differential to evaporate your entire space cushion.

I agree but it's completely irrelevant to froggie's point, with which I also agree.  So you hit the guy in front of you because he caused a slowdown.  Do you feel better with the moral victory of knowing it was his fault?  Your front end is still smashed in.  I'd rather avoid the collision; I don't care who's at fault for the slowdown.

rte66man

Quote from: edwaleni on August 18, 2019, 03:11:27 PM
Class 1 railroads have abdicated medium to short haul to trucks.

With railroads trying to please Wall Street and beginning to charge more for car storage, pickup, switching, all items trucking firms don't charge, you will probably see MORE trucks on US freeways, not more moving on Trains.

Trains are moving slowly but most assuredly to things trucks don't do well.  Bulk Aggregates, Hazardous Chems, Fracked Oil, transcon intermodal, oversize loads as an example.

I work for a firm in the Central States that mines rock and sand. Three of those plants are located adjacent to a Class 1 railroad.  We've had to switch to 100% trucks for one of the plants because UPRR keeps jacking up the rates and won't let us send unit trains. We now have to send a much shorter string of cars to one of their yards where it sits until they get enough cars to send them. We ere sending 3 trains a week (55 cars each due to siding restrictions). Now most if not all of that traffic is being hauled by trucks.

That is just a start. If you are not a megafirm it seems most of the Class 1's (except BNSF) don't want your business.
When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra

edwaleni

Quote from: rte66man on August 19, 2019, 08:21:01 AM
Quote from: edwaleni on August 18, 2019, 03:11:27 PM
Class 1 railroads have abdicated medium to short haul to trucks.

With railroads trying to please Wall Street and beginning to charge more for car storage, pickup, switching, all items trucking firms don't charge, you will probably see MORE trucks on US freeways, not more moving on Trains.

Trains are moving slowly but most assuredly to things trucks don't do well.  Bulk Aggregates, Hazardous Chems, Fracked Oil, transcon intermodal, oversize loads as an example.

I work for a firm in the Central States that mines rock and sand. Three of those plants are located adjacent to a Class 1 railroad.  We've had to switch to 100% trucks for one of the plants because UPRR keeps jacking up the rates and won't let us send unit trains. We now have to send a much shorter string of cars to one of their yards where it sits until they get enough cars to send them. We ere sending 3 trains a week (55 cars each due to siding restrictions). Now most if not all of that traffic is being hauled by trucks.

That is just a start. If you are not a megafirm it seems most of the Class 1's (except BNSF) don't want your business.

Not to get off "the highway" too far.  I have been reading there has been a disruption in the supply of frac sand because frackers are mining it locally. This has put several large sand providers in the central states in a weird spot because the frackers don't want unit size supply anymore. So by doing that it forces a shift to trucks. UPRR in turn see demand shifting to smaller and smaller demand sets (less cars to deliver per switching event) so in turn they raise prices.

Is this consistent to what you are seeing?

The Ghostbuster

What is the present state of this segment of Interstate 70? Can upgrades to the road wait 15-to-20 years, or should the upgrades come much sooner (assuming they had all the money they need for final design and construction of course)?

Kniwt

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 20, 2019, 04:18:21 PM
What is the present state of this segment of Interstate 70? Can upgrades to the road wait 15-to-20 years?

Dilapidated pavement. Deficient bridges. Horribly bumpy transitions between bridges and pavement (especially when the freeway passes under a bridge and the original pavement is all that's there because they can't reduce the clearance by laying new asphalt). Only two lanes in each direction. And that doesn't even count the massive volume of semitrailers, many of which are being driven unsafely, causing way too many injuries and fatalities.

So, the answer: No. :)

Life in Paradise

Quote from: Kniwt on August 20, 2019, 04:29:04 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 20, 2019, 04:18:21 PM
What is the present state of this segment of Interstate 70? Can upgrades to the road wait 15-to-20 years?

Dilapidated pavement. Deficient bridges. Horribly bumpy transitions between bridges and pavement (especially when the freeway passes under a bridge and the original pavement is all that's there because they can't reduce the clearance by laying new asphalt). Only two lanes in each direction. And that doesn't even count the massive volume of semitrailers, many of which are being driven unsafely, causing way too many injuries and fatalities.

So, the answer: No. :)
I remember driving the stretch between Terre Haute and Indianapolis in the late 90s thinking that they needed to have three lanes in each direction, and it just keep getting worse.  A few years ago (maybe 10-20 years) IDOT did replace some of the road base under overpasses with new concrete so that they could in the future repave.  For all of this, I understand that the Indiana Toll Road is worse, and you pay for the privilege to drive on it.

2trailertrucker

Quote from: Kniwt on August 20, 2019, 04:29:04 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 20, 2019, 04:18:21 PM
What is the present state of this segment of Interstate 70? Can upgrades to the road wait 15-to-20 years?

Dilapidated pavement. Deficient bridges. Horribly bumpy transitions between bridges and pavement (especially when the freeway passes under a bridge and the original pavement is all that's there because they can't reduce the clearance by laying new asphalt). Only two lanes in each direction. And that doesn't even count the massive volume of semitrailers, many of which are being driven unsafely, causing way too many injuries and fatalities.

So, the answer: No. :)
Over 2 million miles safely driven! Since you are anti-truck, good luck filling up your car for your next trip. A trucker brought the gas to the station, having to deal with you on your phone for the trip.
September is Truck Driver Appreciation month BTW!

Kniwt

#19
Quote from: 2trailertrucker on August 21, 2019, 09:05:10 AM
Since you are anti-truck

Not anti-truck ... just tired of all the undertrained, overworked, and underpaid novice drivers who have apparently flooded the industry (and the freeways) because of poor management, the warped economy, impending automation, and any number of other factors.

Back in the day, it used to be a pleasure sharing the freeways with courteous truckers who would let you know on the ceebee when there was a problem up ahead or when Ol' Smokey was hiding behind the overpass. Now, too many of them are too busy texting and drifting into the other lane at 75mph -- yes, this happened to me on I-15 just last week, because when I finally passed him, I could see him still texting away, seemingly oblivious.

Unfortunately, when approaching a semi nowadays, it's a crapshoot whether it's being piloted by an actual responsible professional driver like you.

edwaleni

I remember I-70 ending at Holt Road in Indy for many years. Very irritating.

The road really needs a reconstruction as the base dates back to the mid to late 1960's.

If they follow Illinois methods they will again do a scrape, patch and cover with asphalt.

Under bridges they usually just do a scrape and patch to maintain clearances.

Florida just reconstructed I-4 from Daytona to DeLand and it makes a world of difference. Replaced all the overpasses as well.

If Indiana could do what Florida did, it would make it much more safer.


kevinb1994

Quote from: edwaleni on August 21, 2019, 10:48:54 AM
I remember I-70 ending at Holt Road in Indy for many years. Very irritating.

The road really needs a reconstruction as the base dates back to the mid to late 1960's.

If they follow Illinois methods they will again do a scrape, patch and cover with asphalt.

Under bridges they usually just do a scrape and patch to maintain clearances.

Florida just reconstructed I-4 from Daytona to DeLand and it makes a world of difference. Replaced all the overpasses as well.

If Indiana could do what Florida did, it would make it much more safer.
Exactly how many years did it end there? That sounds almost like an eternity there. I haven't been on I-4 to Disney World and back since April of last year so I can't comment on your contrast there.

2trailertrucker

Quote from: Kniwt on August 21, 2019, 09:58:45 AM
Quote from: 2trailertrucker on August 21, 2019, 09:05:10 AM
Since you are anti-truck

Not anti-truck ... just tired of all the undertrained, overworked, and underpaid novice drivers who have apparently flooded the industry (and the freeways) because of poor management, the warped economy, impending automation, and any number of other factors.

Back in the day, it used to be a pleasure sharing the freeways with courteous truckers who would let you know on the ceebee when there was a problem up ahead or when Ol' Smokey was hiding behind the overpass. Now, too many of them are too busy texting and drifting into the other lane at 75mph -- yes, this happened to me on I-15 just last week, because when I finally passed him, I could see him still texting away, seemingly oblivious.

Unfortunately, when approaching a semi nowadays, it's a crapshoot whether it's being piloted by an actual responsible professional driver like you.

All is good.

trafficsignal

Just for additional information into the upgrades - I-65 south of Indy carries more traffic than I-70 west of Indy (https://indot.ms2soft.com/tcds).  The segment within Terre Haute is similar in volume to the segment within Columbus, but just to the east of Terre Haute is a segment under 30k vehicles while the most rural section of I-65 south doesn't drop below 35k.  So, it's likely driven by volumes instead of other needs (like the past governor being from Columbus, which I'm sure had no impact on any decision for which corridor to start with :spin:).

I'm sure they'll work westward on I-70 out of the Indy metro, like they have to the NW, SE, and NE already.  Lots of needs but a good stream of money to work with.

silverback1065

i've heard rumors that 70 mat be widened soon, but from ohio west to some undetermined point west of richmond



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