As you should know by now, the MLB team in Cleveland is in the process of ditching its 106-year old name for an entirely new identity next season, as other teams are purging themselves from racially offensive nicknames like the Washington Football Team (formerly known as the Redskins) did last year. As for the new name, it is unknown at this point, but there certainly is no shortage of great suggestions (https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2020/12/14/cleveland-indians-name-change-spiders-naps/6536682002/). Leading the pack are:
- Spiders: Apparently, this is the most popular choice, and it would be a revival of the old NL team that played in the late 19th century. But the downside is, it would be a painful reminder of how the last edition fared (20-134 in 1899, a record that still is unmatched).
- Naps: Before the Indians came to be, Nap Lajoie was a legend for the team. He was player-manager for the then-Bronchos, which changed their name to honor him. After his departure, the current name was introduced. Really, though, would we want to name a team something that's sleep-inducing? And also, we already have the Washington Nats, which sound too close to it.
- Rocks/Rockers: Not only would this name draw on Cleveland's role in rock & roll music (with its namesake Hall of Fame located there), it would also be a revival of an old WNBA team name. I'm not too keen on this idea either, as it would invoke images of rocking chairs.
- Cleveland Baseball Team: Washington did it, so why not this one? I'm pretty sure Rob Manfred wouldn't allow that, though.
- Guardians: Now that's a pretty cool name, if I ever did see one. The bridge over the Cuyahoga River is adorned with guardian statues, and this would be a fitting tribute.
- Buckeyes: Meh. Ohio State already has that name, and I don't think they'd want to share it.
- Great Lakes/Lakers: Never mind that LeBron James plays for the Los Angeles Lakers, that name is ingrained into basketball history, even if it doesn't make sense where it is.
- Municipals: Yawn. Municipal Stadium opened in 1931 and closed in 1995 (when the Browns moved to Baltimore and became the Ravens); the Indians left in 1993.
- Wild Things: Now this is the most interesting nickname ever! Charlie Sheen's character in the Major League movies was nicknamed Wild Thing, and the name would be a perfect homage to it.
- Blues: Considering the overall state of the team through the years, it probably wouldn't be a good idea to give them this name, but then again, St. Louis won the Stanley Cup in 2019. And there's also the old Cleveland Blues team that predated the Spiders. Perhaps it would actually be a good backup name for Rocks and Rockers, as the blues begat rock & roll back in the 50s, which was also the last great era for the Indians until their 90s resurgence.
What would be your choice for the new name? Personally, I like the Spiders.
Spiders seems like a obvious choice.
Guess the people who forced them to ditch the name overlook the fact that the name was honoring a Native American player.
As for the former Washington Redskins, perhaps they should adopt the name Washington Senators.
As a lifelong fan, Spiders is my preference. The 1899 season was a fluke (the owner also owned the St. Louis club and transferred all the Spiders' great players, including Cy Young, to the St. Louis club and ran the Cleveland club as a sideshow).
Re the suggestion of Rock/Rockers, the name is too close to the Colorado Rockies, so hopefully that's a nonstarter.
One thing on the Buckeyes name: it was the name of the Cleveland Negro League team in the 1940s and could be a fitting moniker for the club that integrated the American League.
Spiders probably has my vote as well, seconded by Guardians.
Guardians sounds the best, though I feel it's not that relevant to Cleveland.
How about Cleveland Baseball Team? :-D
If they're in a suburb:
Parma Hams
Avon Cosmetics
Euclid Mathematicians
Highland Heights Hills
Independence Halls
I like Spiders the best
Rocks/Rockers is too close to Colorado Rockies.
Quote from: 1 on June 08, 2021, 01:04:48 PM
If they're in a suburb:
Parma Hams
Avon Cosmetics
Euclid Mathematicians
Highland Heights Hills
Independence Halls
Mentor Trubiskys
How about the Cleveland Fords? As a nod to the Cleveland Ford engine plant and where the Ford 351 Cleveland came from.
I don't think that Indians is offensive at all but I like Spiders the best.
Cleveland Flames. Or Cleveland Fire.
Paying homage to a certain burning river.
Palefaces
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 08, 2021, 02:56:42 PM
I don't think that Indians is offensive at all but I like Spiders the best.
It's only inoffensive if you're referring to people from India.
Quote from: D-Dey65 on June 08, 2021, 11:52:50 AM
Guess the people who forced them to ditch the name overlook the fact that the name was honoring a Native American player.
This has been debunked.
QuoteAn oft-repeated legend is that the name "Indians" was chosen because it was one of the nicknames previously applied to the old Cleveland Spiders baseball club during the time when Louis Sockalexis, a Native American, played in Cleveland.[7] The attribution of the new name as being in honor of Sockalexis, a member of the Penobscot Tribe of Maine, is generally discredited given the discriminatory treatment of Native Americans in general, and Sockalexis in particular during that era.[8] The news stories published to announce the selection in 1915 make no mention of Sockalexis, but do make many racist and insulting references to Native Americans.[9]
If they wanted to honor Native Americans, the team should've dropped their crude and racist mascot sooner and reach out to local tribes. If the Spokane Indians (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/03/sports/baseball/indians-team-names-mascots.html) could do it, then so can a major league team.
Quote from: jmacswimmer on June 08, 2021, 01:31:48 PM
Quote from: 1 on June 08, 2021, 01:04:48 PM
If they're in a suburb:
Parma Hams
Avon Cosmetics
Euclid Mathematicians
Highland Heights Hills
Independence Halls
Mentor Trubiskys
Westlake Spartans. And then you could hire these two:
(https://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/shared/npr/styles/x_large/nprshared/201805/386748594.jpg)
Quote from: Alps on June 08, 2021, 05:09:35 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 08, 2021, 02:56:42 PM
I don't think that Indians is offensive at all but I like Spiders the best.
It's only inoffensive if you're referring to people from India.
Eh many natives actually prefer the term Indian.
I was given a "Certificate of Indian Blood" from my tribe. As far as I know, "Indian" is still the official term to describe those with native ancestry. My local tribe is still the Puyallup Tribe of Indians (http://www.puyallup-tribe.com/).
I'm not in the least bit perturbed by it, but "Indian" as a term is just silly. We all know that it doesn't make any sense. I'm not personally aware of any native Americans who prefer "Indian" as much as they just tolerate it. "Native American" and recently "indigenous" are far more popular. "Indigenous" is a much better term, in my opinion.
Quote from: jakeroot on June 08, 2021, 06:03:16 PM
I was given a "Certificate of Indian Blood" from my tribe. As far as I know, "Indian" is still the official term to describe those with native ancestry. My local tribe is still the Puyallup Tribe of Indians (http://www.puyallup-tribe.com/).
I'm not in the least bit perturbed by it, but "Indian" as a term is just silly. We all know that it doesn't make any sense. I'm not personally aware of any native Americans who prefer "Indian" as much as they just tolerate it. "Native American" and recently "indigenous" are far more popular. "Indigenous" is a much better term, in my opinion.
The name is a bit strange, but it has so much history that it will feel strange having an MLB without them.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 08, 2021, 06:05:57 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 08, 2021, 06:03:16 PM
I was given a "Certificate of Indian Blood" from my tribe. As far as I know, "Indian" is still the official term to describe those with native ancestry. My local tribe is still the Puyallup Tribe of Indians (http://www.puyallup-tribe.com/).
I'm not in the least bit perturbed by it, but "Indian" as a term is just silly. We all know that it doesn't make any sense. I'm not personally aware of any native Americans who prefer "Indian" as much as they just tolerate it. "Native American" and recently "indigenous" are far more popular. "Indigenous" is a much better term, in my opinion.
The name is a bit strange, but it has so much history that it will feel strange having an MLB without them.
Well sure, but so? We all eventually die off, and soon there'll be no one left who even knew of the Cleveland Indians.
Steve Jobs, when scoffing at the thought of hand-writing superseding typing as a note-taking method since not enough people could type effectively, said it pretty well: "death takes care of it".
Kind of a tangent on this, but does anyone know if Washington plans to rename their team? I thought Football Team was just meant to be an interim thing while they figured out the new branding.
Ah, political correctness. :popcorn:
Quote from: OCGuy81 on June 08, 2021, 06:27:13 PM
Kind of a tangent on this, but does anyone know if Washington plans to rename their team? I thought Football Team was just meant to be an interim thing while they figured out the new branding.
Supposed to be for 2022. The process is not straightforward.
Regarding Cleveland, I suppose another name in their sports history is Barons, which was the name of their NHL team, but that team only lasted two seasons. I believe the WHA team was called the Crusaders. Cleveland Crusaders has a nice ring to it, but I'd wager some people would object to it if it calls to mind the religious wars known as the Crusades. Not that it matters, I haven't heard either of those mentioned anywhere in connection with the Indians.
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 08, 2021, 06:32:48 PM
Regarding Cleveland, I suppose another name in their sports history is Barons, which was the name of their NHL team, but that team only lasted two seasons. I believe the WHA team was called the Crusaders. Cleveland Crusaders has a nice ring to it, but I'd wager some people would object to it if it calls to mind the religious wars known as the Crusades. Not that it matters, I haven't heard either of those mentioned anywhere in connection with the Indians.
And the Barons NHL team was named as a tribute of a team of the same name who existed from 1937 to 1973 and Fred Glover was one of the main stars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Barons_(1937—1973) (http://"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Barons_(1937%E2%80%941973)")
http://redwingslegends.blogspot.com/2011/03/fred-glover.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27JAnz-1JBQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHh_gdAtGuI
Quote from: Alps on June 08, 2021, 05:09:35 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 08, 2021, 02:56:42 PM
I don't think that Indians is offensive at all ...
It's only inoffensive if you're referring to people from India.
Quote from: Bruce on June 08, 2021, 05:18:46 PM
If they wanted to honor Native Americans, the team should've dropped their crude and racist mascot sooner and reach out to local tribes.
I agree that the term 'Indian' is not pejorative. In the 1990s, fully 50% of American Indians preferred to be called 'American Indian' over anything and everything else. In my city, there is a museum dedicated entirely to Native history and culture, and its name is the Mid-America Indian Center: I don't know if people complain about the name, but I've never personally heard anyone do so.
However, the Cleveland Indians'
mascot, I agree, should probably have been ditched years ago.
Quote from: kphoger on June 08, 2021, 07:44:54 PM
I agree that the term 'Indian' is not pejorative. In the 1990s, fully 50% of American Indians preferred to be called 'American Indian' over anything and everything else.
Among the common names for Indigenous Americans, I don't think any would be considered pejorative. But "Indian" ≠ "American Indian".
As I highlighted several posts ago (previous page for everyone but |kphoger|), the most popular term now among Indigenous Americans is "Indigenous American", with "American Indian" bringing up the rear. "Native American" remains popular but less so with each year.
So, for Cleveland, their two options moving forward would be either "Cleveland American Indians" or "Cleveland Indigenous Americans". Or, ya know, something massively better than those.
Besides being PC, would it really make any difference? People are still going to call them the Cleveland Indians whether "American" or "Indigenous" is in there.
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 08, 2021, 09:39:51 PM
Besides being PC, would it really make any difference? People are still going to call them the Cleveland Indians whether "American" or "Indigenous" is in there.
Meh. Every name change in history incurred some ridicule from those who grew up with the old name. But death solves this problem. Those who didn't know the old name (literally everyone too young to understand MLB right now and/or non-fans) eventually become the majority. Those who continue to cling on will quickly feel out of touch and hopefully move on.
It's not like a highway name. Sports teams are heavy on branding for clear reasons. The second this name change takes hold, the new name will be everywhere and I doubt "Indians" will remain popular for long.
I wasn't seriously proposing those names in my post, just for the record. No new name should have "Indian" in it.
It's a sports team name. The wording does not have to be 100% correct.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 08, 2021, 09:54:58 PM
It's a sports team name. The wording does not have to be 100% correct.
Well, no, but they should at least pick a good name.
Quote from: jakeroot on June 08, 2021, 10:01:29 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 08, 2021, 09:54:58 PM
It's a sports team name. The wording does not have to be 100% correct.
Well, no, but they should at least pick a good name.
I was more referring to "Cleveland Indians" vs "Cleveland Indigenous Indians"
Just add a few letters and make it the Cleveland Indianains (Indianites?).
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 08, 2021, 10:13:11 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 08, 2021, 10:01:29 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 08, 2021, 09:54:58 PM
It's a sports team name. The wording does not have to be 100% correct.
Well, no, but they should at least pick a good name.
I was more referring to "Cleveland Indians" vs "Cleveland Indigenous Indians"
In that case:
Quote from: jakeroot on June 08, 2021, 09:54:16 PM
I wasn't seriously proposing those names in my post, just for the record. No new name should have "Indian" in it.
I have trusted sources in Cleveland that say the new nickname for the baseball team will be...
Cobra Verde
(https://media1.fdncms.com/clevescene/imager/cobra-verde/u/slideshow/1482250/41524.0.jpeg)
Or the Roadfans (Marc & I will sell the name for 1 million dollars..each)
Or maybe the Cleveland Roadmeet (set for August 28)
Or at the end of the day, just call them the Cleveland Roadgeekteenhaters.
Cleveland Buck Fostons ;)
If the Indians are being renamed, does that mean we need to rename the state of Indiana?
Quote from: 1 on June 09, 2021, 06:07:53 AM
If the Indians are being renamed, does that mean we need to rename the state of Indiana?
State of Nativia?
I like Canada's "First Nations" for a term. The Inuit (fka Eskimos) are not Indians, and First Nations includes them.
Speaking of Eskimos: https://www.change.org/p/escanaba-high-school-mascot-re-name-the-escanaba-eskymos (Yes, that's their real mascot) And their official school website: https://www.eskymos.com/
Quote from: GaryV on June 09, 2021, 08:42:08 AM
Quote from: 1 on June 09, 2021, 06:07:53 AM
If the Indians are being renamed, does that mean we need to rename the state of Indiana?
State of Nativia?
With a capital of Nativiapolis?
Interestingly enough, there was a bill up for discussion in the Indiana General Assembly this past session that would prohibit the state and capital city name from changing. Apparently there were people concerned enough about the possibility of that happening that they contacted their lawmakers last year during the pandemic voicing their worry about the state name being changed. The reality is that there is no one seriously considering changing the name from either the state or the city.
And then you have the Indianapolis AAA Baseball team, which is considering changing their name from the Indians. Nothing's been announced on that front yet.
Quote from: jakeroot on June 08, 2021, 09:54:16 PM
No new name should have "Indian" in it.
I'm curious to know what you think about the
Akwesasne (http://mohawk%20nation%20at%20akwesasne) having a lacrosse team named the Indians, or the
Six Nations of the Grand River (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Nations_of_the_Grand_River) having a lacrosse team named the Chiefs.
Quote from: jakeroot on June 08, 2021, 09:37:48 PM
Among the common names for Indigenous Americans, I don't think any would be considered pejorative.
Allow me to introduce the Aniak Halfbreeds:
https://www.kuspuk.org/domain/86
https://www.indianz.com/News/2005/09/12/alaska_native_v.asp (can you believe the name of that news outlet!)
(https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/rutlandherald.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/e/d3/ed345d4b-a633-5bad-8382-2f8a8d9151a0/5bc7bf5960711.image.jpg)
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 08, 2021, 06:32:48 PM
Quote from: OCGuy81 on June 08, 2021, 06:27:13 PM
Kind of a tangent on this, but does anyone know if Washington plans to rename their team? I thought Football Team was just meant to be an interim thing while they figured out the new branding.
Supposed to be for 2022. The process is not straightforward.
Regarding Cleveland, I suppose another name in their sports history is Barons, which was the name of their NHL team, but that team only lasted two seasons. I believe the WHA team was called the Crusaders. Cleveland Crusaders has a nice ring to it, but I'd wager some people would object to it if it calls to mind the religious wars known as the Crusades. Not that it matters, I haven't heard either of those mentioned anywhere in connection with the Indians.
Valparaiso used to be the Crusaders and they just dropped the name this past February.
https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/30882084/valparaiso-dropping-crusaders-name-mascot-logos
Chris
Quote from: kphoger on June 09, 2021, 10:18:17 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 08, 2021, 09:54:16 PM
No new name should have "Indian" in it.
I'm curious to know what you think about the Akwesasne (http://mohawk%20nation%20at%20akwesasne) having a lacrosse team named the Indians, or the Six Nations of the Grand River (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Nations_of_the_Grand_River) having a lacrosse team named the Chiefs.
Those are tribes, and they should be free to do as they want. The Cleveland Indians are not a tribe.
For the record, I have no issue with "Chiefs" or "Warriors" or "Braves" or anything like that. I just think "Indian" is kind of a lazy name. They could do better.
Quote from: kphoger on June 09, 2021, 10:18:17 AM
Allow me to introduce the Aniak Halfbreeds:
https://www.kuspuk.org/domain/86
https://www.indianz.com/News/2005/09/12/alaska_native_v.asp (can you believe the name of that news outlet!)
[image clipped]
See, this is definitely...bizarre. I really don't know what to say. At least it's not a common term for those with mixed Indigenous/etc blood.
Quote from: Bruce on June 08, 2021, 05:18:46 PM
This has been debunked.
QuoteAn oft-repeated legend is that the name "Indians" was chosen because it was one of the nicknames previously applied to the old Cleveland Spiders baseball club during the time when Louis Sockalexis, a Native American, played in Cleveland.[7] The attribution of the new name as being in honor of Sockalexis, a member of the Penobscot Tribe of Maine, is generally discredited given the discriminatory treatment of Native Americans in general, and Sockalexis in particular during that era.[8] The news stories published to announce the selection in 1915 make no mention of Sockalexis, but do make many racist and insulting references to Native Americans.[9]
Got a source for that quote? I smell Wikipedia. Which means it hasn't been debunked at all.
As a fan of the original "Star Trek" series, I bought all those paperback books that came out in the 70s and 80s as official continuations of the storyline and the characters. One of them introduced the term "Amerind" as a contraction of "American Indian."
I'm not enamored with the term "Native American." I'm a Native American, having been born in Lexington, Ky.
Quote from: jakeroot on June 09, 2021, 12:49:45 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 09, 2021, 10:18:17 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 08, 2021, 09:54:16 PM
No new name should have "Indian" in it.
I'm curious to know what you think about the Akwesasne (http://mohawk%20nation%20at%20akwesasne) having a lacrosse team named the Indians, or the Six Nations of the Grand River (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Nations_of_the_Grand_River) having a lacrosse team named the Chiefs.
Those are tribes, and they should be free to do as they want. The Cleveland Indians are not a tribe.
So tribal associations should be able to call their teams "Indians" but non-tribal associations should not? I guess they'd better not allow any non-Indians to be on the team, then.
Quote from: 1 on June 08, 2021, 01:04:48 PM
If they're in a suburb:
Parma Hams
Is there anybody important in the area named Sean? They could name their team after him and become the Parma Seans.
Quote from: kphoger on June 09, 2021, 01:03:13 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 09, 2021, 12:49:45 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 09, 2021, 10:18:17 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 08, 2021, 09:54:16 PM
No new name should have "Indian" in it.
I'm curious to know what you think about the Akwesasne (http://mohawk%20nation%20at%20akwesasne) having a lacrosse team named the Indians, or the Six Nations of the Grand River (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Nations_of_the_Grand_River) having a lacrosse team named the Chiefs.
Those are tribes, and they should be free to do as they want. The Cleveland Indians are not a tribe.
So tribal associations should be able to call their teams "Indians" but non-tribal associations should not? I guess they'd better not allow any non-Indians to be on the team, then.
Are there any native American mlb players?
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 09, 2021, 01:14:34 PM
Are there any native American mlb players?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Native_American_sportspeople#Baseball
Quote from: kphoger on June 09, 2021, 01:03:13 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 09, 2021, 12:49:45 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 09, 2021, 10:18:17 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 08, 2021, 09:54:16 PM
No new name should have "Indian" in it.
I'm curious to know what you think about the Akwesasne (http://mohawk%20nation%20at%20akwesasne) having a lacrosse team named the Indians, or the Six Nations of the Grand River (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Nations_of_the_Grand_River) having a lacrosse team named the Chiefs.
Those are tribes, and they should be free to do as they want. The Cleveland Indians are not a tribe.
So tribal associations should be able to call their teams "Indians" but non-tribal associations should not? I guess they'd better not allow any non-Indians to be on the team, then.
There's only one tribal team named Indians (so far as we know), so clearly it's not a preferred name amongst indigenous peoples either (my local tribe is called the Warriors). But yes, in my opinion, sports teams should avoid names that are just a race or ethnicity.
Quote from: kphoger on June 09, 2021, 01:31:13 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 09, 2021, 01:14:34 PM
Are there any native American mlb players?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Native_American_sportspeople#Baseball
Ike Kahdot is interesting, as he actually did play for the Indians.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 09, 2021, 01:40:56 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 09, 2021, 01:31:13 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 09, 2021, 01:14:34 PM
Are there any native American mlb players?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Native_American_sportspeople#Baseball
Ike Kahdot is interesting, as he actually did play for the Indians.
As did Joba Chamberlain. He retired from the Indians in 2016.
Quote from: jakeroot on June 09, 2021, 01:35:53 PM
There's only one tribal team named Indians (so far as we know), so clearly it's not a preferred name amongst indigenous peoples either (my local tribe is called the Warriors).
A few boarding schools as well, which I decided not to list.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 09, 2021, 01:40:56 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 09, 2021, 01:31:13 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 09, 2021, 01:14:34 PM
Are there any native American mlb players?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Native_American_sportspeople#Baseball
Ike Kahdot is interesting, as he actually did play for the Indians.
Ryan Helsley was in the news a few times for being somewhat outspoken against the Braves' tomahawk chop.
Quote from: tdindy88 on June 09, 2021, 09:02:43 AM
Interestingly enough, there was a bill up for discussion in the Indiana General Assembly this past session that would prohibit the state and capital city name from changing. Apparently there were people concerned enough about the possibility of that happening that they contacted their lawmakers last year during the pandemic voicing their worry about the state name being changed. The reality is that there is no one seriously considering changing the name from either the state or the city.
And then you have the Indianapolis AAA Baseball team, which is considering changing their name from the Indians. Nothing's been announced on that front yet.
At this rate, I wonder if Hollywood will rename Indiana Jones and the tv show Eerie Indiana?
Quote from: jakeroot on June 09, 2021, 01:35:53 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 09, 2021, 01:03:13 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 09, 2021, 12:49:45 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 09, 2021, 10:18:17 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 08, 2021, 09:54:16 PM
No new name should have "Indian" in it.
I'm curious to know what you think about the Akwesasne (http://mohawk%20nation%20at%20akwesasne) having a lacrosse team named the Indians, or the Six Nations of the Grand River (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Nations_of_the_Grand_River) having a lacrosse team named the Chiefs.
Those are tribes, and they should be free to do as they want. The Cleveland Indians are not a tribe.
So tribal associations should be able to call their teams "Indians" but non-tribal associations should not? I guess they'd better not allow any non-Indians to be on the team, then.
There's only one tribal team named Indians (so far as we know), so clearly it's not a preferred name amongst indigenous peoples either (my local tribe is called the Warriors). But yes, in my opinion, sports teams should avoid names that are just a race or ethnicity.
Notre Dame Irish?
Quote from: Big John on June 09, 2021, 04:58:31 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 09, 2021, 01:35:53 PM
There's only one tribal team named Indians (so far as we know), so clearly it's not a preferred name amongst indigenous peoples either (my local tribe is called the Warriors). But yes, in my opinion, sports teams should avoid names that are just a race or ethnicity.
Notre Dame Irish?
Maybe one thing at a time. But from Googling around, it seems that nickname has sparked some discussion as well.
The Irish certainly got their fair share of shit from other Europeans, but historically I think Indigenous Americans probably had it worse. So I may argue that the two are a little different, although I don't love either name honestly.
Point being, I guess: new team names really shouldn't be like "Colorado Chinese" or "Pennsylvania Poles" or whatever.
Quote from: hbelkins on June 09, 2021, 12:50:10 PM
Quote from: Bruce on June 08, 2021, 05:18:46 PM
This has been debunked.
QuoteAn oft-repeated legend is that the name "Indians" was chosen because it was one of the nicknames previously applied to the old Cleveland Spiders baseball club during the time when Louis Sockalexis, a Native American, played in Cleveland.[7] The attribution of the new name as being in honor of Sockalexis, a member of the Penobscot Tribe of Maine, is generally discredited given the discriminatory treatment of Native Americans in general, and Sockalexis in particular during that era.[8] The news stories published to announce the selection in 1915 make no mention of Sockalexis, but do make many racist and insulting references to Native Americans.[9]
Got a source for that quote? I smell Wikipedia. Which means it hasn't been debunked at all.
As a fan of the original "Star Trek" series, I bought all those paperback books that came out in the 70s and 80s as official continuations of the storyline and the characters. One of them introduced the term "Amerind" as a contraction of "American Indian."
I'm not enamored with the term "Native American." I'm a Native American, having been born in Lexington, Ky.
Yes, it's from Wikipedia, which does not make it unreliable. It is sourced to a contemporary report in the Plain Dealer from 1915, and this 1998 journal article (https://journals.humankinetics.com/view/journals/ssj/15/4/article-p299.xml) that is behind a paywall.
According to Soxalexis' biographer, quoted in USA Today (https://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/02/chief-wahoo-cleveland-indians-racist-mascot-nickname-louis-sockalexis-mlb): "If we go all the way back to the inspiration for the nickname, a man who suffered racial prejudice to play in Cleveland, to play professional baseball – this has never honored Louis Sockalexis."
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One must be respectful of the terms that a marginalized group prefers. If they say it is a slur or it is unacceptable, then just back off and use what they prefer to be called. Some indigenous groups prefer Indian, others Native American, or others a more regional term (e.g. Coast Salish). It's not hard to just use the right term.
The Fighting Irish is not analogous because they named themselves after themselves. Irish Catholics at a Catholic university put their own ethnicity front and center. They were not some group of outsiders who murdered and drove out all the Irish living in South Bend and then named their sports teams after them.
Quote from: Bruce on June 09, 2021, 09:38:56 PM
One must be respectful of the terms that a marginalized group prefers.
But only if they're marginalized, of course. :rolleyes:
(https://i.imgur.com/ml6a9Es.jpg)
Quote from: triplemultiplex on June 09, 2021, 11:00:36 PM
The Fighting Irish is not analogous because they named themselves after themselves. Irish Catholics at a Catholic university put their own ethnicity front and center. They were not some group of outsiders who murdered and drove out all the Irish living in South Bend and then named their sports teams after them.
White people didn't murder or drive any tribes out of the Cleveland area. It was uninhabited from about the mid-17th Century on, probably due to intertribal warfare, disease, and/or weather. The city of Cleveland wasn't established until more than a century later.
Quote from: kphoger on June 10, 2021, 09:55:47 AM
Quote from: Bruce on June 09, 2021, 09:38:56 PM
One must be respectful of the terms that a marginalized group prefers.
But only if they're marginalized, of course. :rolleyes:
(https://i.imgur.com/ml6a9Es.jpg)
Latin culture also treats these things a little differently, which I'm sure you're aware of. Tons of my Mexican friends/coworkers have a friend named "Chino" because he has narrow eyes or "Gordo" if they're overweight. Edinson Cavani, a famous Uruguayan soccer player got suspended for a couple of games because he called his darker skin friend "Negrito" on Twitter. People were offended
for his friend I guess. He only got suspended because he was playing in England vs. playing in South America or Spain and almost decided to leave Manchester United because of it.
Chris
Quote from: jayhawkco on June 10, 2021, 10:01:46 AM
Quote from: kphoger on June 10, 2021, 09:55:47 AM
Quote from: Bruce on June 09, 2021, 09:38:56 PM
One must be respectful of the terms that a marginalized group prefers.
But only if they're marginalized, of course. :rolleyes:
(https://i.imgur.com/ml6a9Es.jpg)
Latin culture also treats these things a little differently, which I'm sure you're aware of. Tons of my Mexican friends/coworkers have a friend named "Chino" because he has narrow eyes or "Gordo" if they're overweight. Edinson Cavani, a famous Uruguayan soccer player got suspended for a couple of games because he called his darker skin friend "Negrito" on Twitter. People were offended for his friend I guess. He only got suspended because he was playing in England vs. playing in South America or Spain and almost decided to leave Manchester United because of it.
Not quite sure what your point is. It's OK to call a minority person a racial slur as long as there's a "culture" of doing so?
Quote from: kphoger on June 10, 2021, 10:57:14 AM
Not quite sure what your point is. It's OK to call a minority person a racial slur as long as there's a "culture" of doing so?
No, not at all. My point was more that different societies have different views of what is normalized, for better or for worse.
Chris
Quote from: jayhawkco on June 10, 2021, 10:01:46 AM
Quote from: kphoger on June 10, 2021, 09:55:47 AM
Quote from: Bruce on June 09, 2021, 09:38:56 PM
One must be respectful of the terms that a marginalized group prefers.
But only if they're marginalized, of course. :rolleyes:
(https://i.imgur.com/ml6a9Es.jpg)
Latin culture also treats these things a little differently, which I'm sure you're aware of. Tons of my Mexican friends/coworkers have a friend named "Chino" because he has narrow eyes or "Gordo" if they're overweight. Edinson Cavani, a famous Uruguayan soccer player got suspended for a couple of games because he called his darker skin friend "Negrito" on Twitter. People were offended for his friend I guess. He only got suspended because he was playing in England vs. playing in South America or Spain and almost decided to leave Manchester United because of it.
Chris
Also, to the best of my knowledge, 'Gringo' is not a slur in the eyes of Mexicans (note the address of the store on the receipt, 'Coahuila' is a state in Mexico, one of 31). To them it is a colloquial term used to describe those from north of the Rio Grande/Rio Bravo.
Mike
Quote from: mgk920 on June 10, 2021, 03:22:06 PM
Also, to the best of my knowledge, 'Gringo' is not a slur in the eyes of Mexicans (note the address of the store on the receipt, 'Coahuila' is a state in Mexico, one of 31). To them it is a colloquial term used to describe those from north of the Rio Grande/Rio Bravo.
Whenever I refer to myself as a
gringo in Mexico, the people I'm talking to look a bit uncomfortable for a few seconds, exchange quick glances with each other, then smile. This leads me to believe they know to at least some degree that it's a derogatory term.
But anyway, by your logic, it's fine for white Americans to use the term "Indians" so long as it's not a slur
in the eyes of those white Americans.
If a time comes when I can read the lyrics of some of these rap (so-called) songs in prose form in a public setting without running seriously afoul of the PC Police....
Mike
Cleveland has the option of using Spiders, as that was one of the longest names used other than Naps in baseball history in Cleveland. They could even put the goofy smile on a spider that Wahoo had. Cleveland Spiders could tie in with Marvel's Spider-Man or something too.
.
Which reminds me of a not-completely-joking proposal to rename the state of Indiana to the state of Independence, and the capital to Independopolis. The joking was that just rename it to Independs and Independsopolis. :)
.
Seriously though, the Indianapolis team should be the Clowns.
Quote from: sturmde on June 10, 2021, 05:27:59 PM
Cleveland has the option of using Spiders, as that was one of the longest names used other than Naps in baseball history in Cleveland. They could even put the goofy smile on a spider that Wahoo had.
This is the obvious answer, which guarantees that it will not the one ultimately selected.
Quote from: US 89 on June 10, 2021, 06:27:16 PM
Quote from: sturmde on June 10, 2021, 05:27:59 PM
Cleveland has the option of using Spiders, as that was one of the longest names used other than Naps in baseball history in Cleveland. They could even put the goofy smile on a spider that Wahoo had.
This is the obvious answer, which guarantees that it will not the one ultimately selected.
Got that right!
Like how Wichita's new team ended up being called the Wind Surge (over such obviously better alternatives as River Riders, 29'ers, and Linemen). WTF? That's a term for something that happens at sea along a coastline. You may have noticed that Wichita doesn't have any seafront coastline. Also, there was a gradual rollout of public opinion polls about what the new name should be, then the name was directly decided on by the team itself. Wait, I got that in the wrong order: the team decided on the name,
THEN gradually rolled out public opinion polls about what the name should be.
Quote from: The Wichita Eagle – Wind Scourge: Wichita's new baseball team name doesn't blow us away – 14-NOV-2019
"I think that if you and I were drunk, high and having periodic grand mal seizures, we could come up with a dozen better names in half an hour," my friend Matt wrote on my Facebook page.
[...]
It's understandable that many Wichitans – even baseball enthusiasts – feel betrayed by the process that brought us the Wind Surge ... the months-long rollout of potential Wichita names seems insincere and meaningless.
Quote from: Summer News Cow – Sunday Blog: The Wichita Wind Surge name blows, but it doesn't matter – 17-NOV-2019
We had a Newscow poll asking readers to vote what they thought of the Wichita Wind Surge — the new name of the minor league baseball team.
By an overwhelming 93 percent, our readers said "it blows" ...
Quote from: Kirstie Alley (via Twitter) – 14-NOV-2019
... the name Wind Surge sounds like passing gas or or or who the hell knows ...
Quote from: kphoger on June 10, 2021, 09:59:51 AM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on June 09, 2021, 11:00:36 PM
The Fighting Irish is not analogous because they named themselves after themselves. Irish Catholics at a Catholic university put their own ethnicity front and center. They were not some group of outsiders who murdered and drove out all the Irish living in South Bend and then named their sports teams after them.
White people didn't murder or drive any tribes out of the Cleveland area. It was uninhabited from about the mid-17th Century on, probably due to intertribal warfare, disease, and/or weather. The city of Cleveland wasn't established until more than a century later.
You were too literal in your interpretation of my analogy.
Points for pedantry.
You guys can't honestly think a 'slur' like gringo, honky or cracker is on the same level as like the N-word and stuff. Just look at those words; they are all so silly, it's hard to be insulted.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on June 11, 2021, 04:09:01 PM
You guys can't honestly think a 'slur' like gringo, honky or cracker is on the same level as like the N-word and stuff. Just look at those words; they are all so silly, it's hard to be insulted.
But you also can't honestly think the N-word is on the same level as "Indian"...
Quote from: kphoger on June 11, 2021, 04:29:19 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on June 11, 2021, 04:09:01 PM
You guys can't honestly think a 'slur' like gringo, honky or cracker is on the same level as like the N-word and stuff. Just look at those words; they are all so silly, it's hard to be insulted.
But you also can't honestly think the N-word is on the same level as "Indian"...
"Indian" is nowhere near the N-word. "Redskin" is also not as bad as the n word.
Quote from: kphoger on June 11, 2021, 04:29:19 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on June 11, 2021, 04:09:01 PM
You guys can't honestly think a 'slur' like gringo, honky or cracker is on the same level as like the N-word and stuff. Just look at those words; they are all so silly, it's hard to be insulted.
But you also can't honestly think the N-word is on the same level as "Indian"...
Definitely not. "Redskins" was much worse for the same reason. I'm sure the team name would have been changed a long time ago if it were.
From doing a bit more research, it seems the name change could also be in response to losing Chief Wahoo. There's really no way to brand "Indians" in a fun way without it coming across as distasteful. Changing the name allows them to create a whole new brand.
Quote from: jakeroot on June 11, 2021, 04:46:00 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 11, 2021, 04:29:19 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on June 11, 2021, 04:09:01 PM
You guys can't honestly think a 'slur' like gringo, honky or cracker is on the same level as like the N-word and stuff. Just look at those words; they are all so silly, it's hard to be insulted.
But you also can't honestly think the N-word is on the same level as "Indian"...
Definitely not. "Redskins" was much worse for the same reason. I'm sure the team name would have been changed a long time ago if it were.
From doing a bit more research, it seems the name change could also be in response to losing Chief Wahoo. There's really no way to brand "Indians" in a fun way without it coming across as distasteful. Changing the name allows them to create a whole new brand.
The Blackhawks logo is still hanging on.
Quote from: jakeroot on June 11, 2021, 04:46:00 PM
From doing a bit more research, it seems the name change could also be in response to losing Chief Wahoo. There's really no way to brand "Indians" in a fun way without it coming across as distasteful. Changing the name allows them to create a whole new brand.
(https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/K5nJQVKQDbmf8c5kwiuEpG-480-80.png)
Quote from: kphoger on June 11, 2021, 04:53:49 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 11, 2021, 04:46:00 PM
From doing a bit more research, it seems the name change could also be in response to losing Chief Wahoo. There's really no way to brand "Indians" in a fun way without it coming across as distasteful. Changing the name allows them to create a whole new brand.
(https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/K5nJQVKQDbmf8c5kwiuEpG-480-80.png)
All these logos should be used. If they are all used none of them are racist anymore.