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Changing Control Cities

Started by OCGuy81, October 05, 2011, 10:20:06 PM

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jp the roadgeek

Surprised no one mentioned I-95 South through RI.  On most signs, New York is the control (with the occasional Warwick), but once you hit the CT border, the control becomes New London, then New Haven, before becoming N.Y. City again. 
Interstates I've clinched: 97, 290 (MA), 291 (CT), 291 (MA), 293, 295 (DE-NJ-PA), 295 (RI-MA), 384, 391, 395 (CT-MA), 395 (MD), 495 (DE), 610 (LA), 684, 691, 695 (MD), 695 (NY), 795 (MD)


HighwayStar

Quote from: 1995hoo on October 06, 2011, 11:03:24 AM
I seem to recall that signs on I-70 eastbound in Maryland alternate between Baltimore and Washington as the control city (I-270 splits off at Frederick to go south to the DC Beltway while I-70 continues east to the Baltimore area). I haven't been on there since January and I wasn't particularly paying attention to the signs at the time.

Both are really incorrect. Washington for obvious reasons, and as I-70 does not actually go to Baltimore it should say "Baltimore Beltway" to emphasize its incompleteness.
There are those who travel, and those who travel well

JayhawkCO

Quote from: HighwayStar on April 16, 2021, 02:08:02 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 06, 2011, 11:03:24 AM
I seem to recall that signs on I-70 eastbound in Maryland alternate between Baltimore and Washington as the control city (I-270 splits off at Frederick to go south to the DC Beltway while I-70 continues east to the Baltimore area). I haven't been on there since January and I wasn't particularly paying attention to the signs at the time.

Both are really incorrect. Washington for obvious reasons, and as I-70 does not actually go to Baltimore it should say "Baltimore Beltway" to emphasize its incompleteness.

Not to be pedantic, but I-70 technically makes it into Baltimore city limits.  Even if it didn't, there are plenty of other situations like I-80/Chicago where the highway doesn't enter the city limits themselves, but still serves the city.

Chris

SkyPesos

#53
Quote from: jayhawkco on April 16, 2021, 02:37:43 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 16, 2021, 02:08:02 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 06, 2011, 11:03:24 AM
I seem to recall that signs on I-70 eastbound in Maryland alternate between Baltimore and Washington as the control city (I-270 splits off at Frederick to go south to the DC Beltway while I-70 continues east to the Baltimore area). I haven't been on there since January and I wasn't particularly paying attention to the signs at the time.

Both are really incorrect. Washington for obvious reasons, and as I-70 does not actually go to Baltimore it should say "Baltimore Beltway" to emphasize its incompleteness.

Not to be pedantic, but I-70 technically makes it into Baltimore city limits.  Even if it didn't, there are plenty of other situations like I-80/Chicago where the highway doesn't enter the city limits themselves, but still serves the city.

Chris
As long as it makes it into the metro area, it's fine for me. I-270 to DC used to be I-70S, which makes this case similar to Dallas-Ft Worth for I-35; two cities in the same MSA or CSA each served by a suffixed interstate. So DC on I-70 is good. I'm even fine with Las Vegas on I-70 WB west of Green River, as most traffic on I-70 WB past that point will turn onto I-15 south, which heads to Las Vegas, the next sizable city. Same case with Los Angeles on I-40 WB.


HighwayStar

Quote from: jayhawkco on April 16, 2021, 02:37:43 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 16, 2021, 02:08:02 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 06, 2011, 11:03:24 AM
I seem to recall that signs on I-70 eastbound in Maryland alternate between Baltimore and Washington as the control city (I-270 splits off at Frederick to go south to the DC Beltway while I-70 continues east to the Baltimore area). I haven't been on there since January and I wasn't particularly paying attention to the signs at the time.

Both are really incorrect. Washington for obvious reasons, and as I-70 does not actually go to Baltimore it should say "Baltimore Beltway" to emphasize its incompleteness.

Not to be pedantic, but I-70 technically makes it into Baltimore city limits.  Even if it didn't, there are plenty of other situations like I-80/Chicago where the highway doesn't enter the city limits themselves, but still serves the city.

Chris

I don't view the city limits as sufficient, it needs to serve the city in a meaningful sense. And it needs to bear the shame of its incompleteness.
There are those who travel, and those who travel well

kphoger

Quote from: HighwayStar on April 16, 2021, 02:55:50 PM
I don't view the city limits as sufficient, it needs to serve the city in a meaningful sense. And it needs to bear the shame of its incompleteness.

When I search Google Maps for directions from Frederick to downtown Baltimore, it has me taking I-70 to I-695.  To me, that sounds like "serving the city in a meaningful sense".  To me, it's really no different than–as |jayhawkco| pointed out–Chicago being the control city for I-80.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

StogieGuy7

Quote from: kphoger on April 16, 2021, 03:02:58 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 16, 2021, 02:55:50 PM
I don't view the city limits as sufficient, it needs to serve the city in a meaningful sense. And it needs to bear the shame of its incompleteness.

When I search Google Maps for directions from Frederick to downtown Baltimore, it has me taking I-70 to I-695.  To me, that sounds like "serving the city in a meaningful sense".  To me, it's really no different than–as |jayhawkco| pointed out–Chicago being the control city for I-80.

Agree. If the interstate is the route to use by which you would reach that city, it should count - even if that very route doesn't technically enter the city, it serves it.  I-80 and Chicago is a great example.  What? Are we supposed to not use Chicago as a control and post Gary and Joliet instead? Absurd. Same for I-70 to Baltimore. And I-80 to NYC (which it technically doesn't reach). And how about I-95 and Washington? It hasn't technically gone there in close to 50 years (and I don't count that 100 yard bit it passes through along the Potomac).  But if you're driving to DC from Wlimington (DE or NC), you're going to take 95 at some point to reach it.

HighwayStar

Quote from: kphoger on April 16, 2021, 03:02:58 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 16, 2021, 02:55:50 PM
I don't view the city limits as sufficient, it needs to serve the city in a meaningful sense. And it needs to bear the shame of its incompleteness.

When I search Google Maps for directions from Frederick to downtown Baltimore, it has me taking I-70 to I-695.  To me, that sounds like "serving the city in a meaningful sense".  To me, it's really no different than–as |jayhawkco| pointed out–Chicago being the control city for I-80.

Nope, Google Maps has all kind of BS routing. I-70 was supposed to go into the center of Baltimore, it does not, therefore it needs to bear the designation of Baltimore Beltway or something equally shameful. When it is completed then it can be a real interstate and get a sensible control city.
There are those who travel, and those who travel well

kphoger

Quote from: HighwayStar on April 16, 2021, 04:13:17 PM
I-70 was supposed to go into the center of Baltimore, it does not, therefore it needs to bear the designation of Baltimore Beltway or something equally shameful. When it is completed then it can be a real interstate and get a sensible control city.

I'm pretty sure control cities are supposed to be chosen as a navigational aid–not as a way of throwing a public hissy fit about something not turning out the way it was intended.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

HighwayStar

Quote from: kphoger on April 16, 2021, 04:22:48 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 16, 2021, 04:13:17 PM
I-70 was supposed to go into the center of Baltimore, it does not, therefore it needs to bear the designation of Baltimore Beltway or something equally shameful. When it is completed then it can be a real interstate and get a sensible control city.

I'm pretty sure control cities are supposed to be chosen as a navigational aid–not as a way of throwing a public hissy fit about something not turning out the way it was intended.

On the contrary, putting Baltimore on there to aid in navigation is deceptive, it conceals the fact that the motoring public was screwed out of the highway they were supposed to have. Every time I have to go to Baltimore I curse that stupid dead end.
There are those who travel, and those who travel well

Flint1979

Exit 154 off I-75 in Michigan which is the Zilwaukee exit has Bay City as the control city for NB I-75 anywhere else at that point MDOT uses Mackinac Bridge as the control city. I wish they'd just use one city and Bay City does not need to be used for a control city it's too close to Saginaw which is a bigger city. So what I'm saying is that this should say Mackinac Bridge not Bay City

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4917527,-83.9230662,3a,15y,307.52h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sjJOPnNXVDGCSt4bbktyraA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DjJOPnNXVDGCSt4bbktyraA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D163.99373%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

kphoger

Quote from: HighwayStar on April 16, 2021, 07:30:18 PM
On the contrary, putting Baltimore on there to aid in navigation is deceptive, it conceals the fact that the motoring public was screwed out of the highway they were supposed to have. Every time I have to go to Baltimore I curse that stupid dead end.

...which means, every time you go to Baltimore, you use that highway.  Ergo, signing that highway for Baltimore is appropriate.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

jmacswimmer

Quote from: kphoger on April 16, 2021, 09:32:42 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 16, 2021, 07:30:18 PM
On the contrary, putting Baltimore on there to aid in navigation is deceptive, it conceals the fact that the motoring public was screwed out of the highway they were supposed to have. Every time I have to go to Baltimore I curse that stupid dead end.

...which means, every time you go to Baltimore, you use that highway.  Ergo, signing that highway for Baltimore is appropriate.

And upon reaching I-695, Baltimore is signed for SB I-695 from I-70 to get you over to I-95 NB to downtown.  Regardless, 70 still gets to you to the Baltimore metro area from the west (and similarly, I-270 gets you to the DC metro area from the northwest despite ending at I-495).
"Now, what if da Bearss were to enter the Indianapolis 5-hunnert?"
"How would they compete?"
"Let's say they rode together in a big buss."
"Is Ditka driving?"
"Of course!"
"Then I like da Bear buss."
"DA BEARSSS BUSSSS"

Dirt Roads

Quote from: HighwayStar on April 16, 2021, 07:30:18 PM
On the contrary, putting Baltimore on there to aid in navigation is deceptive, it conceals the fact that the motoring public was screwed out of the highway they were supposed to have. Every time I have to go to Baltimore I curse that stupid dead end.

Quote from: kphoger on April 16, 2021, 09:32:42 PM
...which means, every time you go to Baltimore, you use that highway.  Ergo, signing that highway for Baltimore is appropriate.

I was in total agreement until you gave this example.  I've worked on many projects in Baltimore, visited many times, and have attended more games at Camden Yards than any other MLB stadium.  Also worked on relocating tracks in Camden Yards as part of the stadium project.  But as many times as I have used I-70 to catch the Baltimore Beltway (I-695), I've never used I-70 to go to Baltimore.  Almost always somewhere further north, but one time I needed it as a traffic detour to get to BWI.

achilles765

Mississippi has a weird tendency to list small cities as control cities within the state. I grew up just on the state line north of New Orleans along Interstate 55. In Louisiana the control cities are New Orleans–->Hammond––>Jackson.
But once in Mississippi it's New Orleans––>McComb––>Brookhaven––>Jackson––>Grenada–->Memphis. McComb and Brookhaven have maybe 10,000 people each.
Here in Texas I think that they need to change the control cities for the new interstate 69 because here in Houston the controls are Cleveland and Victoria. But Texas doesn't usually use smaller cities like those as control cities. Case in point- IH 10 using El Paso–>San Antonio–>Houston–>Beaumont–>lake Charles. It doesn't list Van Horn in San Antonio. So IH 69 should be Rio Grande Valley–->Corpus Christi–>Houston–Texarkana.
I love freeways and roads in any state but Texas will always be first in my heart

HighwayStar

Quote from: Dirt Roads on April 16, 2021, 10:42:56 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 16, 2021, 07:30:18 PM
On the contrary, putting Baltimore on there to aid in navigation is deceptive, it conceals the fact that the motoring public was screwed out of the highway they were supposed to have. Every time I have to go to Baltimore I curse that stupid dead end.

Quote from: kphoger on April 16, 2021, 09:32:42 PM
...which means, every time you go to Baltimore, you use that highway.  Ergo, signing that highway for Baltimore is appropriate.

I was in total agreement until you gave this example.  I've worked on many projects in Baltimore, visited many times, and have attended more games at Camden Yards than any other MLB stadium.  Also worked on relocating tracks in Camden Yards as part of the stadium project.  But as many times as I have used I-70 to catch the Baltimore Beltway (I-695), I've never used I-70 to go to Baltimore.  Almost always somewhere further north, but one time I needed it as a traffic detour to get to BWI.

Nope, every time I use many highways, perhaps two of which say Baltimore, so using a highway to get somewhere does not determine the control city.
The determinant of the control city should be if the highway functionally goes there. I-70 does not functionally go to Baltimore, its a disgrace.
There are those who travel, and those who travel well

Scott5114

Quote from: HighwayStar on April 17, 2021, 04:47:15 PM
Nope, every time I use many highways, perhaps two of which say Baltimore, so using a highway to get somewhere does not determine the control city.
The determinant of the control city should be if the highway functionally goes there. I-70 does not functionally go to Baltimore, its a disgrace.

Quote from: Dictionary.com
disgrace noun

  • the loss of respect, honor, or esteem; ignominy; shame: the disgrace of criminals.
  • a person, act, or thing that causes shame, reproach, or dishonor or is dishonorable or shameful.
  • the state of being out of favor; exclusion from favor, confidence, or trust.

what
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

SkyPesos

Quote from: Scott5114 on April 17, 2021, 05:02:57 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 17, 2021, 04:47:15 PM
Nope, every time I use many highways, perhaps two of which say Baltimore, so using a highway to get somewhere does not determine the control city.
The determinant of the control city should be if the highway functionally goes there. I-70 does not functionally go to Baltimore, its a disgrace.

Quote from: Dictionary.com
disgrace noun

  • the loss of respect, honor, or esteem; ignominy; shame: the disgrace of criminals.
  • a person, act, or thing that causes shame, reproach, or dishonor or is dishonorable or shameful.
  • the state of being out of favor; exclusion from favor, confidence, or trust.

what
Second definition based on this previous post:

Quote from: HighwayStar on April 16, 2021, 04:13:17 PM
Nope, Google Maps has all kind of BS routing. I-70 was supposed to go into the center of Baltimore, it does not, therefore it needs to bear the designation of Baltimore Beltway or something equally shameful. When it is completed then it can be a real interstate and get a sensible control city.

Scott5114

Saying that putting "I-70 east–Baltimore" on a sign brings "shame, reproach, or dishonor or is dishonorable or shameful" is a hell of a stretch. Hope HighwayStar takes yoga classes.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Scott5114

A non-roadgeek has reported on OKCTalk that they saw a sign using Dallas of all things as a control city on the southbound Kansas Turnpike south of Wichita. I asked him for a more specific location so I could try and track it down, since I don't remember seeing that on my last trip through the area in November 2019.

J.N. or Kyle, do you know anything about this?
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

thspfc

So HighwayStar, would you support getting rid of any mention of Pittsburgh on any 2di in the country? I-76 doesn't "functionally go there" . Neither does I-79.

Flint1979

I guess you can't use Saginaw for a control city on I-75 since I-75 doesn't actually enter the city of Saginaw. Perhaps Zilwaukee Bridge would be a good control city.

jmacswimmer

Also can't use "BWI Airport"  on I-195 since it ends at MD 170 prior to reaching the airport terminal, or "Bay Bridge"  on I-97 since US 50 is the one to actually reach the bridge.

VA 168, meanwhile, doesn't get anywhere close to "Outer Banks" !!!
"Now, what if da Bearss were to enter the Indianapolis 5-hunnert?"
"How would they compete?"
"Let's say they rode together in a big buss."
"Is Ditka driving?"
"Of course!"
"Then I like da Bear buss."
"DA BEARSSS BUSSSS"

Scott5114

uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

hbelkins

Quote from: HighwayStar on April 17, 2021, 04:47:15 PM
Quote from: Dirt Roads on April 16, 2021, 10:42:56 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on April 16, 2021, 07:30:18 PM
On the contrary, putting Baltimore on there to aid in navigation is deceptive, it conceals the fact that the motoring public was screwed out of the highway they were supposed to have. Every time I have to go to Baltimore I curse that stupid dead end.

Quote from: kphoger on April 16, 2021, 09:32:42 PM
...which means, every time you go to Baltimore, you use that highway.  Ergo, signing that highway for Baltimore is appropriate.

I was in total agreement until you gave this example.  I've worked on many projects in Baltimore, visited many times, and have attended more games at Camden Yards than any other MLB stadium.  Also worked on relocating tracks in Camden Yards as part of the stadium project.  But as many times as I have used I-70 to catch the Baltimore Beltway (I-695), I've never used I-70 to go to Baltimore.  Almost always somewhere further north, but one time I needed it as a traffic detour to get to BWI.

Nope, every time I use many highways, perhaps two of which say Baltimore, so using a highway to get somewhere does not determine the control city.
The determinant of the control city should be if the highway functionally goes there. I-70 does not functionally go to Baltimore, its a disgrace.

I-81 doesn't go to Knoxville.

For that matter, neither does I-75. I-75 bypasses downtown Knoxville and you use I-275 to continue on in to the central part of the city (but in its defense, I-275 used to be I-75 before I-75 was routed onto I-640). I'm not even sure that it enters the Chattanooga city limits, as you have to use I-24 to get to downtown. So using your logic, the control city south of Lexington should be Atlanta. And the control city for I-95 north of Richmond should be NYC since I-95 doesn't go to Washington, it circles it on the Beltway (yes, I know it clips the corner of the city/district on the WW Bridge).

I-70 functionally takes you to Baltimore, and that's what counts.


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