Michigan Notes

[JREwing78]

On this week's Talking Michigan Transportation podcast, a conversation with Eric Morris, Michigan office lead for HNTB, the transportation consultant selected to complete a tolling study.

Some 35 states have at least one facility with tolling. But that number is a little deceiving because Michigan would be counted in that total since there is tolling on big bridges and/or international crossings but no tolling on non-bridge road segments.

Morris says the experts analyzed all 31 highways in Michigan for the study and determined that 14 could become toll roads, including large portions of Interstates 75, 94 and 96.

As Bridge Michigan reported, any tolls would take years to implement and require approval from the Legislature and the governor, among numerous hurdles.

Morris talks about the differences between various road user charge (RUC) options, including mileage-based user fees (MBUF) and tolling and how pilot programs seeking people to participate have been voluntary, so far, including one in Oregon that has generated a lot of discussion.

https://www.buzzsprout.com/1374205/12086503-study-examines-feasibility-of-tolling-some-michigan-roads

[captkirk_4]

Morris says the experts analyzed all 31 highways in Michigan for the study and determined that 14 could become toll roads, including large portions of Interstates 75, 94 and 96.

Those roads were built with Federal Funds by Eisenhower and Kennedy for all of us, how can these people suddenly start charging money on traditional free roads? Weren't toll roads supposed to be routes that couldn't get built any other way due to lack of funding? Even the scam we were sold then was that stuff like the Tri-State Tollway was supposed to be temporary until they paid the bonds off, last I drove it they still charge and made it so unfriendly for out of state drivers by not even having a single cash or credit card option for those who aren't part of the local club with transponders. They ought to pass a federal law requiring all tollways and toll bridges to be forced to have cash tollbooths available for non locals and not over charge them as well. Those jerks just did the same to the decades old free I 65 crossing over the Ohio river. The crooked elites looting the country probably have their eyes set on selling off our interstates and bridges to the CCP and Gulf Oil Princes next.

[JoePCool14]

Morris says the experts analyzed all 31 highways in Michigan for the study and determined that 14 could become toll roads, including large portions of Interstates 75, 94 and 96.

Those roads were built with Federal Funds by Eisenhower and Kennedy for all of us, how can these people suddenly start charging money on traditional free roads? Weren't toll roads supposed to be routes that couldn't get built any other way due to lack of funding? Even the scam we were sold then was that stuff like the Tri-State Tollway was supposed to be temporary until they paid the bonds off, last I drove it they still charge and made it so unfriendly for out of state drivers by not even having a single cash or credit card option for those who aren't part of the local club with transponders. They ought to pass a federal law requiring all tollways and toll bridges to be forced to have cash tollbooths available for non locals and not over charge them as well. Those jerks just did the same to the decades old free I 65 crossing over the Ohio river. The crooked elites looting the country probably have their eyes set on selling off our interstates and bridges to the CCP and Gulf Oil Princes next.

Well said. The problem is the government theft and waste. Whether it's the politicians making bank, or the insane pension packages for government employees. If the money wasn't stolen or wasted, we wouldn't have as much trouble maintaining our highways and bridges.

[SEWIGuy]

Morris says the experts analyzed all 31 highways in Michigan for the study and determined that 14 could become toll roads, including large portions of Interstates 75, 94 and 96.

Those roads were built with Federal Funds by Eisenhower and Kennedy for all of us, how can these people suddenly start charging money on traditional free roads? Weren't toll roads supposed to be routes that couldn't get built any other way due to lack of funding? Even the scam we were sold then was that stuff like the Tri-State Tollway was supposed to be temporary until they paid the bonds off, last I drove it they still charge and made it so unfriendly for out of state drivers by not even having a single cash or credit card option for those who aren't part of the local club with transponders. They ought to pass a federal law requiring all tollways and toll bridges to be forced to have cash tollbooths available for non locals and not over charge them as well. Those jerks just did the same to the decades old free I 65 crossing over the Ohio river. The crooked elites looting the country probably have their eyes set on selling off our interstates and bridges to the CCP and Gulf Oil Princes next.

The Illinois Tollway has a pay-by-plate system that you can log in and pay up to two weeks after you travel. I forgot my transponder once, and found it to be accurate and easy to use. 

Cash isn't coming back. Nor should it. Much more expensive and less secure to manage.

[JoePCool14]

The Illinois Tollway has a pay-by-plate system that you can log in and pay up to two weeks after you travel. I forgot my transponder once, and found it to be accurate and easy to use. 

Cash isn't coming back. Nor should it. Much more expensive and less secure to manage.

This goes outside the scope of this thread, but I think cash should be accepted everywhere. It's legal tender. Businesses should not be allowed to prohibit its use.

[SEWIGuy]

The Illinois Tollway has a pay-by-plate system that you can log in and pay up to two weeks after you travel. I forgot my transponder once, and found it to be accurate and easy to use. 

Cash isn't coming back. Nor should it. Much more expensive and less secure to manage.

This goes outside the scope of this thread, but I think cash should be accepted everywhere. It's legal tender. Businesses should not be allowed to prohibit its use.

You are misinterpreting what the "legal tender" statement is on Federal Reserve notes.

https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm

[JoePCool14]

The Illinois Tollway has a pay-by-plate system that you can log in and pay up to two weeks after you travel. I forgot my transponder once, and found it to be accurate and easy to use. 

Cash isn't coming back. Nor should it. Much more expensive and less secure to manage.

This goes outside the scope of this thread, but I think cash should be accepted everywhere. It's legal tender. Businesses should not be allowed to prohibit its use.

You are misinterpreting what the "legal tender" statement is on Federal Reserve notes.

https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm

I know it's legal to refuse cash at the moment. Hence my statement including the word, "should". The law should be changed to protect cash transactions.

[SEWIGuy]

The Illinois Tollway has a pay-by-plate system that you can log in and pay up to two weeks after you travel. I forgot my transponder once, and found it to be accurate and easy to use. 

Cash isn't coming back. Nor should it. Much more expensive and less secure to manage.

This goes outside the scope of this thread, but I think cash should be accepted everywhere. It's legal tender. Businesses should not be allowed to prohibit its use.

You are misinterpreting what the "legal tender" statement is on Federal Reserve notes.

https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm

I know it's legal to refuse cash at the moment. Hence my statement including the word, "should". The law should be changed to protect cash transactions.

Absolutely not.  It is more expensive and less secure to have a business deal with cash. It should be up to the business.

[Terry Shea]

The Illinois Tollway has a pay-by-plate system that you can log in and pay up to two weeks after you travel. I forgot my transponder once, and found it to be accurate and easy to use. 

Cash isn't coming back. Nor should it. Much more expensive and less secure to manage.

This goes outside the scope of this thread, but I think cash should be accepted everywhere. It's legal tender. Businesses should not be allowed to prohibit its use.

You are misinterpreting what the "legal tender" statement is on Federal Reserve notes.

https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm

I know it's legal to refuse cash at the moment. Hence my statement including the word, "should". The law should be changed to protect cash transactions.

Absolutely not.  It is more expensive and less secure to have a business deal with cash. It should be up to the business.

There is absolutely zero expense with cash.  Credit cards charge both ways.

[SEWIGuy]

The Illinois Tollway has a pay-by-plate system that you can log in and pay up to two weeks after you travel. I forgot my transponder once, and found it to be accurate and easy to use. 

Cash isn't coming back. Nor should it. Much more expensive and less secure to manage.

This goes outside the scope of this thread, but I think cash should be accepted everywhere. It's legal tender. Businesses should not be allowed to prohibit its use.

You are misinterpreting what the "legal tender" statement is on Federal Reserve notes.

https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm

I know it's legal to refuse cash at the moment. Hence my statement including the word, "should". The law should be changed to protect cash transactions.

Absolutely not.  It is more expensive and less secure to have a business deal with cash. It should be up to the business.

There is absolutely zero expense with cash.  Credit cards charge both ways.

Zero expense? You have to count it, secure it, and take it to the bank. None of that is free. On top of that, it's a lot riskier. It makes you vulnerable to crime both internally and externally.

In the case of the Tollway, you have to employ people to do all of that. It's a lot cheaper to pay or pass along credit fees than pay those expenses.

[Terry Shea]

The Illinois Tollway has a pay-by-plate system that you can log in and pay up to two weeks after you travel. I forgot my transponder once, and found it to be accurate and easy to use. 

Cash isn't coming back. Nor should it. Much more expensive and less secure to manage.

This goes outside the scope of this thread, but I think cash should be accepted everywhere. It's legal tender. Businesses should not be allowed to prohibit its use.

You are misinterpreting what the "legal tender" statement is on Federal Reserve notes.

https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm

I know it's legal to refuse cash at the moment. Hence my statement including the word, "should". The law should be changed to protect cash transactions.

Absolutely not.  It is more expensive and less secure to have a business deal with cash. It should be up to the business.

There is absolutely zero expense with cash.  Credit cards charge both ways.

Zero expense? You have to count it, secure it, and take it to the bank. None of that is free. On top of that, it's a lot riskier. It makes you vulnerable to crime both internally and externally.

In the case of the Tollway, you have to employ people to do all of that. It's a lot cheaper to pay or pass along credit fees than pay those expenses.

Usually a salaried manager does those duties.  You have to add up and account credit card receipts too, and then the bank charges you through the nose for each credit card transaction.  Now maybe it's different for a tollway with transponders and such, but I don't think that technology comes cheaply.  At any rate, there is virtually no expense with cash.  Adding it up and taking it to the bank doesn't take that long, and as already stated it's usually done by a salaried (non-hourly) manager.  I've managed several gas stations in the past and cash is much preferred.  Many gas stations charge more for credit purchases to offset bank charges.

[sprjus4]

^ Usually transponder rates are the lowest because it's an effortless process to simply post the transaction to the transponder account.

Toll-by-plate, on the other hand, requires more work behind the scenes, and is often why it's a higher rate.

This country needs to make all toll passes interoperable so the amount of toll-by-plate transactions, particularly for out of state drivers, goes significantly down.

[SEWIGuy]

The Illinois Tollway has a pay-by-plate system that you can log in and pay up to two weeks after you travel. I forgot my transponder once, and found it to be accurate and easy to use. 

Cash isn't coming back. Nor should it. Much more expensive and less secure to manage.

This goes outside the scope of this thread, but I think cash should be accepted everywhere. It's legal tender. Businesses should not be allowed to prohibit its use.

You are misinterpreting what the "legal tender" statement is on Federal Reserve notes.

https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm

I know it's legal to refuse cash at the moment. Hence my statement including the word, "should". The law should be changed to protect cash transactions.

Absolutely not.  It is more expensive and less secure to have a business deal with cash. It should be up to the business.

There is absolutely zero expense with cash.  Credit cards charge both ways.

Zero expense? You have to count it, secure it, and take it to the bank. None of that is free. On top of that, it's a lot riskier. It makes you vulnerable to crime both internally and externally.

In the case of the Tollway, you have to employ people to do all of that. It's a lot cheaper to pay or pass along credit fees than pay those expenses.

Usually a salaried manager does those duties.  You have to add up and account credit card receipts too, and then the bank charges you through the nose for each credit card transaction.  Now maybe it's different for a tollway with transponders and such, but I don't think that technology comes cheaply.  At any rate, there is virtually no expense with cash. Adding it up and taking it to the bank doesn't take that long, and as already stated it's usually done by a salaried (non-hourly) manager.  I've managed several gas stations in the past and cash is much preferred.  Many gas stations charge more for credit purchases to offset bank charges.

You keep saying this, but the bolded is false. I don't care if it is a "salaried manager" that does some of these things, there is still a cost involved to do those things. And who adds up credit card receipts these days?  This is done automatically with current POS systems.

Regardless, I understand why some businesses would prefer cash. And that's absolutely fine. But I understand completely why some want nothing to do with it, and that's fine too. There shouldn't be a law mandating businesses accept cash.

[hotdogPi]

There shouldn't be a law mandating businesses accept cash.

Massachusetts has had one since 1978.

[SEWIGuy]

There shouldn't be a law mandating businesses accept cash.

Massachusetts has had one since 1978.

I think it should be appealed, but I don't live there so I doubt I will have much influence on the matter.

[mgk920]

The tolltakers,and those working between them and the banking system, were all paid at union scale, too.  As a non-local, I do like having options, too, such as the toll facility running the plates and mailing a bill for the accrued tolls plus a REASONABLE handling fee.

Mike

[thenetwork]

Balancing end-of day cash receipts to cash on hand at the end of a shift has been increasingly harder to do -- especially nowadays when many smaller retailers either round change to the nearest nickel (sometimes restaurants now round change to the nearest dollar), or the occasions where if a cash total comes to $1.03, and if you offer them $2.00, they just say, "keep the other dollar, I got it". 

At least with credit or debit, the total is what they get, and the balancing us pretty much a snap.

[JoePCool14]

What about privacy for the consumer? Why do I have to tell a company or bank about every little dollar I spend? So they can sell my data and use it for advertising? So the government can accuse me of doing something they don't like?

I'm not trying to say I use cash as much as I can, I don't. But I should have the option. I should be able to give my kid $10 and ask him to buy me something or buy himself something without giving him access to my entire bank account.

[SEWIGuy]

What about privacy for the consumer? Why do I have to tell a company or bank about every little dollar I spend? So they can sell my data and use it for advertising? So the government can accuse me of doing something they don't like?

I'm not trying to say I use cash as much as I can, I don't. But I should have the option. I should be able to give my kid $10 and ask him to buy me something or buy himself something without giving him access to my entire bank account.

Do you actually have that problem? 99% of the places I shop accept cash.

[wanderer2575]

What about privacy for the consumer? Why do I have to tell a company or bank about every little dollar I spend? So they can sell my data and use it for advertising? So the government can accuse me of doing something they don't like?

I'm not trying to say I use cash as much as I can, I don't. But I should have the option. I should be able to give my kid $10 and ask him to buy me something or buy himself something without giving him access to my entire bank account.

There is an option.  It's called "not buying that particular something" or "buying something else."  You might not like that option, but it is in fact an option.

[JoePCool14]

Do you actually have that problem? 99% of the places I shop accept cash.

It's not so much that I have the problem now, but that I'll have the problem within the next several years.

There is an option.  It's called "not buying that particular something" or "buying something else."  You might not like that option, but it is in fact an option.

It isn't about that. It's about the principle of cash being accepted in general. And I echo my statement above: I think cash will become almost impossible, if not completely impossible to use in the not-so-distant future.

[SEWIGuy]

I don't think you understand how much of our economy is driven by cash. The idea that it will be nearly impossible to conduct transactions with cash in the near future is hyperbolic.

[JoePCool14]

I don't think you understand how much of our economy is driven by cash. The idea that it will be nearly impossible to conduct transactions with cash in the near future is hyperbolic.

I would love to be proved wrong. I guess come back to this thread in 2030 and see where things are at. Unless the Internet has gone down and there's no such thing as credit cards.

[hotdogPi]

When I was in London, quite a lot of places didn't accept cash. Even the ones that I thought had to (sit-down restaurants, where the concept of legal tender is supposed to exist since you get your meal first and pay later).

(Paris wasn't like this.)

[SEWIGuy]

When I was in London, quite a lot of places didn't accept cash. Even the ones that I thought had to (sit-down restaurants, where the concept of legal tender is supposed to exist since you get your meal first and pay later).

(Paris wasn't like this.)

Again, that's not what "legal tender"  means.