Michigan Notes

[Flint1979]

I-75 is a mess north of Flint. Looking at Google Maps they have the orange on I-75 from Flint all the way to the bridge.

[Flint1979]

Got about 8 in of snow in Saginaw.

[bessertc]

They are just proposing to build the bridge and not revive the whole bypass, right?

This is *just* to build the bridge. Now, obviously, we both know once the bridge is built, it unlocks a whole array of possibilities to build out Hammond/Harmon Rd to a 5-lane divided or boulevard-type roadway. But it's not ever going to be high-speed 70 mph freeway - think 35 to 45 mph surface street.

Also, given local politics, I would expect this would never get uploaded to MDOT as a state roadway. That's the kind of move that would freak residents out about "paving over paradise" or something. I suspect any significant roadway expansion would be to county-owned roadways connecting south to M-113 and southeast to US-131, though you might see small extensions of 5-lane roadway (4-lanes with TWLTL) south along M-37 and east along M-72.

One has to wonder if there was any connection between this development and the GTRC taking over M-137 and coming within a hair's width of taking over M-37 on the Old Mission Peninsula in mid-2020. Anyone who knows me knows I'm no conspiracy theorist (a high school girlfriend of mine recently reached out to me asking me if her husband's belief that "the government" was seeding the clouds so that the snow falling to the earth in the Grand Rapids, Michigan area wasn't snow at all, but actually a chemical compound that doesn't melt...  ), but I also know that MDOT and local road agencies tend to have months and sometimes years of discussions over jurisdictional transfers before we in the public realm ever catch wind of it. And that actually includes yours truly, the Glorious and All-Knowing Webmaster of MichiganHighways.org! 

If you've read any of the media reports about this new "BUT-IT'S-NOT-A-BYPASS!!"-bridge, you can see there's still a TON of division in the local populace over whether or not to build this thing for a wide variety of reasons. Unfortunately, I can see everyone's points here, so there's no really good answers without pissing off some group of people, but the idea the GTRC wouldn't transfer Hammond-Hartman Rds plus some north-south corridor (e.g. Garfield, Four Mile, Five Mile, etc.) to the State as a trunkline route as a Magical TC Bypass Route! doesn't hold a lot of water, IMHO. If they'll go ahead and piss off that many people by building such a major bridge that was voted down in by the populace in the 1980s and in opinion polls since, why wouldn't they just hand off the route to MDOT the first chance they get? Midland County did it ten seconds after they finished the new Meridian Rd bridge at Sanford (which became the new re-extension of M-30 down to M-20 back in 2009), so there's definitely precedent in a County Road Commission building major infrastructure and then immediately handing it off to the state. The City of Muskegon did it with their Shoreline Dr project, too. It's happened more than people think.

But if that happened, would the State hand Grandview Pkwy—Front St—Munson St over to the city and county and take all trunklines out of the City of Traverse City? I doubt it. Would TC even want to maintain Grandview Parkway? It would really make the route of M-72 quite circuitous, but after the M-43/Kalamazoo Embarrasment... er... Debacle of 2019, who knows anymore? Those are just my thoughts. Let's see if the darn bridge gets built first!

[Flint1979]

The Parish Road overpass on I-75 in Bay County, 2 miles south of the Linwood exit has re-opened. I was on M-13 yesterday and decided to take Parrish Road to see if the bridge was open yet and it is. It must have re-opened a couple of months ago I haven't been in that part of Bay County in awhile up until yesterday.

[JREwing78]

Anyone who knows me knows I'm no conspiracy theorist (a high school girlfriend of mine recently reached out to me asking me if her husband's belief that "the government" was seeding the clouds so that the snow falling to the earth in the Grand Rapids, Michigan area wasn't snow at all, but actually a chemical compound that doesn't melt... 

Dodged that bullet! 

[afguy]

A $69 million project on U.S. 23 and Michigan Avenue south of Ann Arbor started today. U.S. 12 will be widened between Platt and Carpenter Roads. Several new loop ramps will be built at the interchange of U.S. 23 and Michigan and auxiliary lanes will be added to U.S. 23 between I-94 and Michigan.

The Michigan Department of Transportation (MDOT) will be closing shoulders of US-23 between Stony Creek and I-94 beginning Wednesday for rebuilding.

The $69 million US-23 and US-12 (Michigan Avenue) improvement project includes new travel lanes on US-12 in both directions beginning just west of the Pittsfield Township police station and extending across US-23 to Carpenter Road, plus redesigned intersections and a new right-turn lane from eastbound US-12 to southbound Platt Road.

The US-23/US-12 interchange, new loop ramps are being added in the northwest and southeast quadrants to eliminate left-turn movements onto US-23. An auxiliary lane is being added in both directions on US-23 between I-94 and US-12, and the acceleration/de-acceleration lanes south of US-12 are being extended.

https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/news-outreach/pressreleases/2023/02/28/us-23-project-between-stony-creek-and-i-94-in-washtenaw-county

[GaryV]

Nope. We don't need rolls here.

Sticky buns would be nice, though. Or next week, paczki.

In all seriousness, passing a bill to make toll roads in MI will suffer the same fate as the "fix the damn roads" proposed gas tax.

LMAO stupid auto correct, I obviously meant tolls but that's hilarious.

An op ed in the Detroit News commenting on the toll proposal: https://www.detroitnews.com/story/opinion/2023/02/28/degood-toll-booths-on-state-highways-would-ease-gas-tax-shortfall/69953241007/

[Rothman]

Nope. We don't need rolls here.

Sticky buns would be nice, though. Or next week, paczki.

In all seriousness, passing a bill to make toll roads in MI will suffer the same fate as the "fix the damn roads" proposed gas tax.

LMAO stupid auto correct, I obviously meant tolls but that's hilarious.

An op ed in the Detroit News commenting on the toll proposal: https://www.detroitnews.com/story/opinion/2023/02/28/degood-toll-booths-on-state-highways-would-ease-gas-tax-shortfall/69953241007/

Yep, tolls are good for you.  Need to start with I-94 around Battle Creek.

[Terry Shea]

Nope. We don't need rolls here.

Sticky buns would be nice, though. Or next week, paczki.

In all seriousness, passing a bill to make toll roads in MI will suffer the same fate as the "fix the damn roads" proposed gas tax.

LMAO stupid auto correct, I obviously meant tolls but that's hilarious.

An op ed in the Detroit News commenting on the toll proposal: https://www.detroitnews.com/story/opinion/2023/02/28/degood-toll-booths-on-state-highways-would-ease-gas-tax-shortfall/69953241007/

Yep, tolls are good for you.  Need to start with I-94 around Battle Creek.

Why is it that posters who apparently live outside of the state of Michigan and even outside of the Great Lakes and Ohio Valley areas, feel that it's necessary to tell us what's good for us here in Michigan?  You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to dictate or speak for us about what is good for us.  I certainly wouldn't go to the Northeast board or any other regional board and start telling you what is good for you or how your state or region should be run.  I believe we're good without tolls here.  We presently have about a $9 billion budget surplus.  Certainly, some of that could be used to improve and build new roads.  What do we need tolls for?  So we can get an even bigger surplus?

[The Ghostbuster]

I agree with Terry Shea. Those who live in Michigan (or any other state) should decide what they believe is best for their state. That includes whether or not to charge more tolls within the state. I'm sure people here in Wisconsin would have similar feelings to people in Michigan if Wisconsin's DOT proposed charging tolls on its Interstates. Wisconsin did have a toll study performed in 2016: https://wisconsindot.gov/pages/projects/solvency.aspx, but obviously it was not implemented. I'm not sure how I'd feel about charging tolls here, although I would support it if the toll money was exclusively used to maintain the tolled roadway, and not diverted to other unrelated uses.

[Rothman]

Nope. We don't need rolls here.

Sticky buns would be nice, though. Or next week, paczki.

In all seriousness, passing a bill to make toll roads in MI will suffer the same fate as the "fix the damn roads" proposed gas tax.

LMAO stupid auto correct, I obviously meant tolls but that's hilarious.

An op ed in the Detroit News commenting on the toll proposal: https://www.detroitnews.com/story/opinion/2023/02/28/degood-toll-booths-on-state-highways-would-ease-gas-tax-shortfall/69953241007/

Yep, tolls are good for you.  Need to start with I-94 around Battle Creek.

Why is it that posters who apparently live outside of the state of Michigan and even outside of the Great Lakes and Ohio Valley areas, feel that it's necessary to tell us what's good for us here in Michigan?  You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to dictate or speak for us about what is good for us.  I certainly wouldn't go to the Northeast board or any other regional board and start telling you what is good for you or how your state or region should be run.  I believe we're good without tolls here.  We presently have about a $9 billion budget surplus.  Certainly, some of that could be used to improve and build new roads.  What do we need tolls for?  So we can get an even bigger surplus?

Pfft.  Welcome to the forum.  In what universe have we ever left opinions to some geographic boundary, which becomes arbitrary when taking into account interstate travel?  Might want to read the Commerce Clause of the Constitution while you're at it.  We are all in the same boat:  The U.S.S. America...and beyond.

Perhaps you might want to take a step back and perceive more accurately the broader significance of statements made on here...or lack thereof.

But, now I truly wonder how much power I have to get the gears really turning to get tolls implemented in Michigan.  Might test those waters...

[Terry Shea]

Nope. We don't need rolls here.

Sticky buns would be nice, though. Or next week, paczki.

In all seriousness, passing a bill to make toll roads in MI will suffer the same fate as the "fix the damn roads" proposed gas tax.

LMAO stupid auto correct, I obviously meant tolls but that's hilarious.

An op ed in the Detroit News commenting on the toll proposal: https://www.detroitnews.com/story/opinion/2023/02/28/degood-toll-booths-on-state-highways-would-ease-gas-tax-shortfall/69953241007/

Yep, tolls are good for you.  Need to start with I-94 around Battle Creek.

Why is it that posters who apparently live outside of the state of Michigan and even outside of the Great Lakes and Ohio Valley areas, feel that it's necessary to tell us what's good for us here in Michigan?  You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to dictate or speak for us about what is good for us.  I certainly wouldn't go to the Northeast board or any other regional board and start telling you what is good for you or how your state or region should be run.  I believe we're good without tolls here.  We presently have about a $9 billion budget surplus.  Certainly, some of that could be used to improve and build new roads.  What do we need tolls for?  So we can get an even bigger surplus?

Pfft.  Welcome to the forum.  In what universe have we ever left opinions to some geographic boundary, which becomes arbitrary when taking into account interstate travel?  Might want to read the Commerce Clause of the Constitution while you're at it.  We are all in the same boat:  The U.S.S. America...and beyond.

Perhaps you might want to take a step back and perceive more accurately the broader significance of statements made on here...or lack thereof.

But, now I truly wonder how much power I have to get the gears really turning to get tolls implemented in Michigan.  Might test those waters...

I said you are entitled to your opinion, and you are.  But when I, a taxpaying, voting resident of Michigan gave my opinion, which was merely common sense and backed up by MDOT and other sources, I was told "citation needed."  You and others don't have to agree with my opinion.  You and others don't have to like my opinion.  You and others don't have to agree with what is common sense.  You and others are free to express your opinion on this matter or any others.  But please knock off the condescending, Hollier than thou, "I know better than you, I know what's good for you and I'm going to dictate to you how your state should be run, because I'm a tyrant wannabee" nonsense.  Especially when such edicts come from someone who apparently lives in a state that has the highest overall taxes in the country, still feels that it's necessary to charge tolls on some of its highways and despite all that revenue has about a $3 billion dollar deficit, while we have a $9 billion dollar surplus, despite having much lower taxes and no tolls except for border crossings and one rather long bridge.  If you want to push for even higher taxes in your state, push to have every square inch of roadway in your state tolled, or whatever, have at it.  I'll leave you alone and not interfere.  Maybe you can brainwash a few lost souls into joining you.  But I'm not about to let some outsider, from what I believe to be by far the biggest taxpayer money wasting state in America, run roughshod and bully people from my state and region into submission.  Once again, you're entitled to your opinion and so am I, and so is everyone else.  We can agree to disagree and/or we can discuss it rationally.  But I am not going to have my opinion dismissed, I am not going to be talked down to, I am not going to be bullied and I am not going to cower to such a hypocritical mindset.  And I will stand up for every person wishing to express his/her opinion here no matter what it is, including you.  But these tyrannical edicts must stop.
https://www.silive.com/news/2022/03/study-reveals-us-states-with-highest-taxes-heres-where-new-york-ranks.html
https://www.rochesterfirst.com/new-york-state/new-york-is-2022s-state-with-the-most-tax-burden/

[hotdogPi]

Lord Carhorn's law: As an online discussion grows longer (regardless of topic or scope), the probability of a Wallethub ranking approaches 1.

Your first link is a Wallethub ranking.

[Rothman]

So...because my state is running a budget deficit, it means that I can't have an opinion on tolling in Michigan.  That's a non sequitur.

More than one person pointed out the problem with your source, which was just a tightrope-walking PR brochure by MDOT.  Got a shrug from us due to the lack of actual analysis therein and the mushy language used.

Like I said, instead of protesting into the void of insignificance here, you've done nothing but make me think what influence an out-of-stater, or a good group thereof, could have on the issue of tolling in Michigan.

[afguy]

The Michigan Infrastructure and Transportation Association released a report today that Michigan faces a $3.9 billion deficit when it comes to road funding. I think in the long run a mix of options will be needed to fix Michigan's roads. Whether that includes higher fuel taxes, local option sales taxes or tolls, we will have to wait to find out.

Report estimates up to $3.9B funding gap for Michigan roads, floats tax increase

The funding gap is based on new assessments that put Michigan's transportation network costs higher than previously believed – between $9 billion and $16.7 billion annually to operate and maintain, with the upper end depending on the amount of deferred maintenance. The estimates are higher than those prepared by the Michigan Department of Transportation because the plan looked at road rebuilds that would last 50 years instead of a 20-year design life.The study conducted by Lansing-based Public Sector Consultants was commissioned by the Michigan Infrastructure and Transportation Association, a trade group that represents road construction companies.

"I recognize that our model puts forward a number that is a much larger investment than previous reports but that shouldn't surprise you," said Maggie Pallone, vice president for Public Sector Consultants. "Our road system is aging and it needs work."  Closing the revenue gap would cost between $285 and $535 annually for every adult in Michigan, the report said.

Groups present at a Tuesday press conference detailing the PSC report's fidning – including MITA, the Michigan Chamber of Commerce, the County Road Association of Michigan, the Detroit Regional Chamber and the Michigan Municipal League – said they would be working with state leaders to develop a solution.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2023/03/07/report-michigan-roads-face-funding-deficit-without-higher-taxes-public-sector-consultants/69976681007/

[The Ghostbuster]

If they do increase taxes, let's hope the tax money is used to fix the roads, and not diverted to non-road projects.

[Rothman]

Guess that surplus Terry was talking about went pfffffft.

[Flint1979]

We have heard the fix the roads crap in Michigan for a generation. Snyder claimed he was going to work on fixing the roads in his second term which ran from 2015-2019. Where did all that money go? Because it certainly didn't go to fix the roads. I live in Michigan and criss cross the state on a regular basis and can tell you that the roads might seem like they are getting fixed but those are pretty much only MDOT roads that they normally work on every summer in the first place. I haven't noticed any more construction than summers in the past 40 years it's about the same.

[Terry Shea]

Guess that surplus Terry was talking about went pfffffft.

Wrong!  There's still going to be about a $9 billion dollar budget surplus, but apparently none of this surplus is going towards roads!  Whitmer had previously proposed a .45/gallon ADDITIONAL gas tax, which neither party wanted. That massive increase would have generated $2.5 billion in additional revenue, but only $1.2 billion would have actually gone towards roads.  This state has plenty of money and generates plenty of revenue, but not enough is earmarked for roads.
https://michiganadvance.com/2023/01/13/state-has-huge-9-2b-surplus-to-help-navigate-a-likely-economic-downturn/

[Terry Shea]

We have heard the fix the roads crap in Michigan for a generation. Snyder claimed he was going to work on fixing the roads in his second term which ran from 2015-2019. Where did all that money go? Because it certainly didn't go to fix the roads. I live in Michigan and criss cross the state on a regular basis and can tell you that the roads might seem like they are getting fixed but those are pretty much only MDOT roads that they normally work on every summer in the first place. I haven't noticed any more construction than summers in the past 40 years it's about the same.

It goes back even further than that.  Granholm, Engler and probably even Blanchard and Milliken all promised to fix the roads.  In 2015 a gas tax increase was indeed implemented but those extra funds seemingly keep getting diverted one way or another.  There was an additional 1.4 cents/gallon gas tax implemented earlier this year.  Interestingly, a good portion of school funding comes from gas tax revenue, and school funding is showing a $4.1 billion dollar surplus in the current budget.  One would think that a good portion of that surplus could be used to fix and build roads.

[Rothman]

Guess that surplus Terry was talking about went pfffffft.

Wrong!  There's still going to be about a $9 billion dollar budget surplus, but apparently none of this surplus is going towards roads!  Whitmer had previously proposed a .45/gallon ADDITIONAL gas tax, which neither party wanted. That massive increase would have generated $2.5 billion in additional revenue, but only $1.2 billion would have actually gone towards roads.  This state has plenty of money and generates plenty of revenue, but not enough is earmarked for roads.
https://michiganadvance.com/2023/01/13/state-has-huge-9-2b-surplus-to-help-navigate-a-likely-economic-downturn/

Read what you've said again very slowly and then see how it's the same as what I said.

[Terry Shea]

Guess that surplus Terry was talking about went pfffffft.

Wrong!  There's still going to be about a $9 billion dollar budget surplus, but apparently none of this surplus is going towards roads!  Whitmer had previously proposed a .45/gallon ADDITIONAL gas tax, which neither party wanted. That massive increase would have generated $2.5 billion in additional revenue, but only $1.2 billion would have actually gone towards roads.  This state has plenty of money and generates plenty of revenue, but not enough is earmarked for roads.
https://michiganadvance.com/2023/01/13/state-has-huge-9-2b-surplus-to-help-navigate-a-likely-economic-downturn/

Read what you've said again very slowly and then see how it's the same as what I said.

No, it's not the same thing!  Out state government is running a $9 billion budget surplus!  Obviously, we pay more than enough taxes and tolls certainly are not necessary.  It's simply a matter of re-prioritizing the budgeting process and sorting out where it's being spent.  School funding is showing an excess of $4.1 billion and a good portion of school funding comes from diverted fuel taxes!  We don't need more taxes.  We don't need tolls.  We need to keep fuel tax monies going exclusively to roads.  But you really shouldn't be worried about our state when the state that employs you is currently running a $3 billion budget deficit, is over $160 billion in debt and projected to be over $200 billion in debt by 2027, despite all the massive taxes and tolls you pay there!
https://www.statista.com/statistics/305318/new-york-state-debt/

[Terry Shea]

If they do increase taxes, let's hope the tax money is used to fix the roads, and not diverted to non-road projects.

Actually, they're talking about lowering the income tax rate from 4.25% to 4.05%.  But they've been saying that for years, so I'll believe it when it happens.

[Rothman]

Guess that surplus Terry was talking about went pfffffft.

Wrong!  There's still going to be about a $9 billion dollar budget surplus, but apparently none of this surplus is going towards roads!  Whitmer had previously proposed a .45/gallon ADDITIONAL gas tax, which neither party wanted. That massive increase would have generated $2.5 billion in additional revenue, but only $1.2 billion would have actually gone towards roads.  This state has plenty of money and generates plenty of revenue, but not enough is earmarked for roads.
https://michiganadvance.com/2023/01/13/state-has-huge-9-2b-surplus-to-help-navigate-a-likely-economic-downturn/

Read what you've said again very slowly and then see how it's the same as what I said.

No, it's not the same thing!  Out state government is running a $9 billion budget surplus!  Obviously, we pay more than enough taxes and tolls certainly are not necessary.  It's simply a matter of re-prioritizing the budgeting process and sorting out where it's being spent.  School funding is showing an excess of $4.1 billion and a good portion of school funding comes from diverted fuel taxes!  We don't need more taxes.  We don't need tolls.  We need to keep fuel tax monies going exclusively to roads.  But you really shouldn't be worried about our state when the state that employs you is currently running a $3 billion budget deficit, is over $160 billion in debt and projected to be over $200 billion in debt by 2027, despite all the massive taxes and tolls you pay there!
https://www.statista.com/statistics/305318/new-york-state-debt/

If you have to re-prioritize, there's not enough funding to do everything, the surplus is really just a charade given MI's needs across the board and roads are not a priority in MI.  Therefore, you need more revenue to pay for roads.

Time to toll Battle Creek.

[Flint1979]

Toll Battle Creek for what? Battle Creek is a city not a highway.