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[Mr. Matté]

What is with the milemarkers on US 30?  Around Lancaster, they stop at 270.6 at the end of the freeway.  About 17 miles later, the Downingtown/Coatesvill bypass begins a milemarker 267.3, which not only doesn't include the surface mileage, but actually goes down.  WTF?

What makes this especially interesting is that the Lancaster ones aren't quite right either, assuming I was at my usual levels of accuracy in measuring the route when I did the photo page for my site.  My measured mileage is about two miles lower than the posted markers, which is a greater divergence than I would expect from measurement error.

My guess has to do with the 22/30 concurrency in the Pittsburgh area.  Does the Lancaster County mileposts include the concurrent mileage but the Chester County mileposts exclude the concurrent mileage?

Pulling out the GIS data I downloaded from PennDOT in I believe Aug. 2020, if I select all of the segments of SR 0030 with a DIR_IND of either 'B' (both) or 'E' directions  from WV to the end of the east end of the Lancaster bypass, do a sum of all the lengths in feet, and divide by 5280, it ends up being only about 248.380 miles. If I then add in the approximate eastbound segments of SR 0020 and SR 0376 where 30 is concurrent (not exact since some segment ends begin/end after overpasses, this also does take into account onramps), the mileage comes out to 270.485, pretty close to the 270.6 milepost there.

As to what's going on with the Downingtown bypass, Beets Me. My only other guess is that the MPs on the Downingtown part were based on US 30 before it was routed on the bypasses around York and Lancaster- comparing the distances between that and PA 462, the difference is 2.6 mi.

[74/171FAN]

(For US 11 and PA 487)  PennDOT - District 3 News: Construction Detour Continues in Bloomsburg, Columbia County

[74/171FAN]

CE Expert System Update 10/12/2022:

District 5:
CE 1b Reevaluations for PA 33 Bushkill Creek Bridges and US 209 at Schafers Schoolhouse Rd.

District 8:  CE1b Scoping for PA 124 at Freysville Rd

(For I-95 and I-476)  PennDOT - District 6 News: Paving, Bridge Repair Scheduled Next Week on I-95, I-476 in Delaware County

(For US 1)  PennDOT - District 6 News: Bridge Construction Planned at Night Next Week on U.S. 1, Rockhill Drive in Bensalem Township

(For I-83 and US 322)  PennDOT - District 8 News: NB I-83 Bridge Inspection Planned for Saturday at Eisenhower Interchange in Dauphin County

(For I-90 and PA 18)  PennDOT - District 1 News: I-90 Westbound Exit 9 Reopened in Erie County

(For I-83)  PennDOT - District 8 News: Weekend Repairs on SB I-83 John Harris Memorial (South) Bridge Postponed

[74/171FAN]

(For PA 550)  PennDOT - District 2 News: Paving in Bellefonte to Bring One-way Detour Next Week

(For I-79)  PennDOT - District 10 News: Sign Structure Replacement Project on I-79 in Butler County (Jackson Township) Will Have Evening Closure

(For PA 32)  PennDOT - District 6 News: Bridge Repair to Begin on Route 32 (River Road) in Tinicum Township, Bucks County

(For PA 26 and PA 45)  PennDOT - District 2 News: Traffic Pattern at Route 26/45 Intersection Project to Shift Monday

[billpa]

MMMM, purple...

Pixel 7

[ixnay]

MMMM, purple...

Pixel 7

Where is this?

[74/171FAN]

^PA 903 SB approaching I-476. 

[SignBridge]

Looks like a clear violation of MUTCD standards. See Sec.2F-03 re: toll road signing. If I'm reading it right, only the section of the sign with the toll pass restriction can be purple.

The section reads in part: Purple shall not be used as a background color to display a destination, action message, or other legend that is not a display of the requirement for all vehicles to have a registered ETC account.

How could PTC or PennDOT have screwed that up so badly?

[rickmastfan67]

Looks like a clear violation of MUTCD standards. See Sec.2F-03 re: toll road signing. If I'm reading it right, only the section of the sign with the toll pass restriction can be purple.

The section reads in part: Purple shall not be used as a background color to display a destination, action message, or other legend that is not a display of the requirement for all vehicles to have a registered ETC account.

How could PTC or PennDOT have screwed that up so badly?

I think it was from when the Turnpike still accepted Cash.  This was a completely new interchange and they made it Ez-Pass only.  Thus, the purple signage.  If you entered this exit as a Cash only person, and exited via a toll booth, you'd be hit with the lost ticket fee.

[SignBridge]

Well, unless these signs were erected before the 2009 Manual took effect, it is still a clear violation of the standard.

[rickmastfan67]

Additionally, the other side HAD purple signage too, but it's since been replaced with normal green signage since the entire Turnpike is cashless now.

Purple - Aug '19
Green - Nov '21

MMMM, purple...

Where is this?

Replaced with green signage as well. https://goo.gl/maps/1TCDXKRgFFctm7Rn8

[rickmastfan67]

Well, unless these signs were erected before the 2009 Manual took effect, it is still a clear violation of the standard.

Opened on June 30th, 2015.

[Roadsguy]

The PTC had used "BPSes" for their E-ZPass-only interchanges when signed from the intersecting road (though not on the Turnpike itself), but as far as I know all of these have since been replaced with standard green signage now that the Turnpike uses AET and these interchanges are open to all traffic.

[74/171FAN]

The PA 29 ones have been replaced too.  (NB-2019, 2021)  (SB-2019, 2021)

[roadman65]

The PA 29 ones have been replaced too.  (NB-2019, 2021)  (SB-2019, 2021)

Also they replaced Philly with Valley Forge too.

https://goo.gl/maps/M5cfEftoNnB5QXo88
Not to mention TOLL I-76 TO TOLL I-276.

[sprjus4]

^ Why would anyone going to Valley Forge get on the Turnpike? Removing Philadelphia makes zero sense.

[BlueOutback7]

^ Why would anyone going to Valley Forge get on the Turnpike? Removing Philadelphia makes zero sense.

Pennsylvania can be very hit or miss when it comes to control cities sometimes. It kind of reminds me of I-81 at the I-78 junction where they use Hazleton instead of Scranton, which is larger and more significant than Hazleton.

[sprjus4]

The thing is though, small city or big city, it doesn’t make much sense to get on the Turnpike to go to Valley Forge.

[famartin]

Both the free segment of 76 (Schuykill) and the free segment of 476 (Mid-County/Blue Route) have control cities which are useless but represent the locations where the road joins the turnpike system. Its... well, at this point its stupid, but I can see how it happened.

That said, they were very quick to replace "Trenton" with "New York" as the I-95 control city, so maybe its time all the "Valley Forge" and "Plymouth Meeting" references go away and are replaced with cities which make more sense. There's no reason not to use "Harrisburg" along the Schuylkill Expressway westbound. 476 is a little more murky but Allentown would be fine.

King of Prussia is such a major commercial center that it could work for both.

[Rothman]

^ Why would anyone going to Valley Forge get on the Turnpike? Removing Philadelphia makes zero sense.

Pennsylvania can be very hit or miss when it comes to control cities sometimes. It kind of reminds me of I-81 at the I-78 junction where they use Hazleton instead of Scranton, which is larger and more significant than Hazleton.

I don't see how using one or the other is somehow better.

[Roadsguy]

I can understand why Valley Forge is used westbound on the Schuylkill, since in practice the Valley Forge Interchange on the Turnpike is less a case of one road merging with another and more a case of the Schuylkill ending at the Turnpike, with each road having its own distinct identity separate from I-76. Plus, the King of Prussia interchange complex is where a significant amount of Schuylkill traffic (possibly more than half) splits off to US 202 (especially to the west), 422, and the rest of the connecting roads. I do think using Valley Forge itself is silly, though, and that King of Prussia would make far more sense, ideally with Harrisburg as a secondary control city wherever practical.

Eastbound on the Turnpike, though, I have no idea why Valley Forge is now used. It was originally only Philadelphia, with Valley Forge only turning up at PA 100 within the past decade and PA 29 since the move to AET. (From Morgantown west, it's still signed for Philadelphia.) I guess the idea might be that by this point, Philadelphia-bound traffic might be starting to fan out to get to various areas of the city, much like how New York City disappears as a control city from the northbound NJTP? This doesn't really make sense, though, as PA 100 and 29 only really serve the far Philadelphia suburbs, and don't even feed into the actual city in any way.

Interestingly, Valley Forge is never used at all on I-276 westbound; it's all just Harrisburg (and Allentown where "To I-476" is signed). This is even the case on the newest signs.

As for I-476, I imagine Plymouth Meeting is used for a similar reason to Valley Forge on the Schuylkill, especially since I-476 ended at the Turnpike until 1996. Now, though, while the Blue Route and Northeast Extension definitely have distinct identities like the Schuylkill and the Turnpike mainline, they do feed seamlessly into one another, making this less of a factor. A comparable situation would be if I-76 instead fed seamlessly onto the US 422 expressway. Signing Pottstown from Center City would make sense then, as signing Allentown from I-95 makes sense now. If a local control city must be used, though, I would prefer Conshohocken, with Allentown as a secondary control city wherever practical. North of the Schuylkill, Allentown could then be used exclusively.

[storm2k]

Never was quite sure why they loved Valley Forge so much since it's more the historical site than anything else. Why not use King of Prussia for a local destination, especially since so many highways intersect there?

[jemacedo9]

King of Prussia wasn't much of anything until the late 60s/early 70s.  Since Valley Forge that is where "free" 76 ends, and meets the Turnpike and 202 and the County Line Expressway (now 422), my guess is thats when they picked Valley Forge as the control city for 76 West and it hasn't ever been updated. All of those highways were around back then.

202 North in Chester County uses King of Prussia.  So does 422 East in Berks and Montgomery Counties. And 422 has a direct exit for Valley Forge NHP.

[roadman65]

Pennsylvania also uses Carlisle out of Harrisburg for I-81 despite it still being within the metro of Harrisburg. 

Even from the PA-MD border to Chambersburg uses Chambersburg and then Carlisle before Harrisburg is even used NB on I-81. Meanwhile MDSHA use Harrisburg as NB I-81 from I-70 in Hagerstown. So PennDOT skips over that twice and only signs the Capital once in the Capital metro.

PennDOT and LaDOTD both have strange control city uses.

[Bitmapped]

Pennsylvania also uses Carlisle out of Harrisburg for I-81 despite it still being within the metro of Harrisburg. 

Even from the PA-MD border to Chambersburg uses Chambersburg and then Carlisle before Harrisburg is even used NB on I-81. Meanwhile MDSHA use Harrisburg as NB I-81 from I-70 in Hagerstown. So PennDOT skips over that twice and only signs the Capital once in the Capital metro.

PennDOT and LaDOTD both have strange control city uses.

Using small cities and Interstate junctions is largely in keeping with PennDOT practice. New Stanton (I-70) and Carlisle (I-81) get the nod because of their interchanges with the PA Turnpike. Chambersburg is similar to all the small control cities along I-80.