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Author Topic: I-69 in TN  (Read 245422 times)

abqtraveler

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Re: I-69 in TN
« Reply #775 on: November 18, 2022, 10:41:38 PM »

Toll roads in Tennessee will not pass political scrutiny in the current environment.  Tennessee is a pay-as-you-go state as mentioned.  The electorate will not tolerate talks of tolling roads here.
Tolling bills were introduced in the Tennessee Legislature in the not-so-distant past, only to be squashed upon introduction. The political appetite for tolling in Tennessee is just not there.
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civilengineeringnerd

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Re: I-69 in TN
« Reply #776 on: November 27, 2022, 09:14:49 PM »

its actually there, but it smaller quantities.
the problem is most people in tennessee, especially in memphis, most likely don't even know what the f civil engineers and road enthusiasts mean when they say tennessee is a pay as you go state. thats something thats not taught in schools, and only people like on forums like these ever take a deeper dive.
and im sure after a detailed explanation, they would assume its a second tax on motorists which 99% of people living in tennessee are against having and would rather see the gas tax raised instead.
if tennessee still isn't getting enough funding for certain projects, like I-69, then something is wrong. while i don't know all the specifics, i would wager they vastly underestimated gas tax revenues when they raised the gas tax back in 2016. what they probably need to do to get projects finished quickly is raise gas taxes by 50 cents per gallon, and split into 3rds so that areas like jackson get the same treatment as nashville.
also gas tax raises need to happen at the local level as well, by at least 25 cents. if we want to continue being a pay as you go state, that is the harsh reality we have to do to get us off the federal teet. counties, cities and the state need to learn to work together and fund together.
its either that, or we split off the funding, tolling I-40 from memphis to the benton county line just after exit 126, and letting a private company manage the tolls and have them send 50% of the profits to a west tennessee foundation thats founded from the counties wanting a piece of the toll pie, that helps the private interests and gets projects done is better. we could have it electronically tolled from exit 12, to exit 126, or we can add a 3rd express tolled lane in the middle.
and with the profits, we can easily get major projects funded that need the extra cash inflow, like I-69 and a completion of I-269 around the western side of memphis.
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triplemultiplex

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Re: I-69 in TN
« Reply #777 on: November 30, 2022, 12:46:46 PM »

also I-44s tolls are not electronic, you have to drive up to a toll booth, which is not what i want for I-40, its too heavily trafficked.
...
personally any tolls in Tennessee needs to be electronic, unless you want 15 mile backups. and no TDOT isn't gonna pull a Oklahoma and start tolling ramps, rural counties won't have it, neither will places like Jackson where their ramps are already tightly packed together.

Oklahoma is transitioning to all electronic tolling:
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=28470.0
They are actively closing the cash tollbooths right now.

its either that, or we split off the funding, tolling I-40 from memphis to the benton county line just after exit 126, and letting a private company manage the tolls and have them send 50% of the profits to a west tennessee foundation thats founded from the counties wanting a piece of the toll pie, that helps the private interests and gets projects done is better. we could have it electronically tolled from exit 12, to exit 126, or we can add a 3rd express tolled lane in the middle.
and with the profits, we can easily get major projects funded that need the extra cash inflow, like I-69 and a completion of I-269 around the western side of memphis.

All your toll revenue would get swallowed by that idea for a third lane in each direction (which it could for sure use, but $$). None left for other projects.
Also thumbs down to private toll operators. Those have not been a good arrangement for drivers on The Skyway and the Indiana Toll Road, in my opinion.  Especially if the goal is to generate revenue for other highway projects.  Now you have some company skimming money off the operation; money that could be used for public infrastructure, not private profit.

What Tennessee needs to do is simply let themselves borrow money to build shit.  This pay-as-you-go model is actually costing the state's taxpayers MORE money than if the state simply floated some bonds to get things built faster and more cost-effectively.  Plus, you also get the tremendous economic benefit of HAVING the infrastructure while you're paying it off.  You come out way ahead by borrowing to build.

At this point, Tennessee has spent 12 years and probably a hundred million dollars building that arduous bypass of Union City.  And it's STILL a year from completion.  And even then, it still won't be done-done because they have to keep building south around Troy, which based on precedent, will probably take ANOTHER goddamn decade.  So they're spending all this money for such a long time and getting no benefit out of it at all.  If 15 years ago, they were able to bond this project, they could've had the funds to get the entire thing under construction and built in like 4 years, probably.  That's about what it would take in any other state these days.  Then for the last decade, they'd have the completed freeway open to the public benefit, generating new opportunities for their tax base and get things moving.  It's penny-wise and pound foolish the way they've gone about this project and many others.  I don't like it; it makes us look bad as a country.  Fourteen frickin' years to build six miles of rural freeway over level ground?  Pathetic!
« Last Edit: November 30, 2022, 01:09:02 PM by triplemultiplex »
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hbelkins

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Re: I-69 in TN
« Reply #778 on: November 30, 2022, 10:44:37 PM »

All this makes me wonder how Tennessee was able to build I-26/US 23 south of Johnson City to the state line.

Back in the MTR days, John Lansford -- he who worked on the design of the wonderfully perfect North Carolina portion of the route from the state line down to Mars Hill -- used to throw off on Tennessee for its design of the route. I remember it being pointed out at the time that Tennessee had built that section entirely with state funds to bypass federal environmental constraints that would have come with accepting federal dollars for the project. That project took a lot of excavation and filling. It's amazing that Tennessee would afford to do that project, but can't do a shorter project on the other end of the state across more favorable terrain.
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LM117

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Re: I-69 in TN
« Reply #779 on: December 01, 2022, 07:41:02 AM »

Is there a reason I-69 isn't using most of the existing US-51 bypass around Union City? From what I can tell on Google Maps, it looks like a lot of it could easily be upgraded to interstate standards.
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triplemultiplex

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Re: I-69 in TN
« Reply #780 on: December 01, 2022, 11:14:41 AM »

Is there a reason I-69 isn't using most of the existing US-51 bypass around Union City? From what I can tell on Google Maps, it looks like a lot of it could easily be upgraded to interstate standards.

Something I have repeated lamented in this thread.

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=3841.msg2530914#msg2530914
« Last Edit: December 01, 2022, 11:16:55 AM by triplemultiplex »
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LM117

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Re: I-69 in TN
« Reply #781 on: December 01, 2022, 01:47:05 PM »

Is there a reason I-69 isn't using most of the existing US-51 bypass around Union City? From what I can tell on Google Maps, it looks like a lot of it could easily be upgraded to interstate standards.

Something I have repeated lamented in this thread.

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=3841.msg2530914#msg2530914

Your drawing is exactly what I was thinking of when I first looked at the map early this morning.

Did TDOT ever give a good reason why they chose not to upgrade the existing bypass, or at least the northern part of it? A brand new bypass here strikes me as a colossal waste of time and money.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2022, 01:49:36 PM by LM117 »
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hbelkins

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Re: I-69 in TN
« Reply #782 on: December 01, 2022, 07:10:52 PM »

Kentucky announced today that the Purchase Parkway from the state line to Mayfield will be reconstructed to interstate standards to be signed as I-69. This includes rebuilding the toll booth cloverleaf at Wingo (KY 339) into a diamond interchange, and improvements to some Kentucky exits near Fulton. Wonder if this puts any pressure on Tennessee to rebuild the South Fulton interchange at US 45/45E/45W?
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mvak36

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Re: I-69 in TN
« Reply #783 on: December 02, 2022, 10:27:03 AM »

Kentucky announced today that the Purchase Parkway from the state line to Mayfield will be reconstructed to interstate standards to be signed as I-69. This includes rebuilding the toll booth cloverleaf at Wingo (KY 339) into a diamond interchange, and improvements to some Kentucky exits near Fulton. Wonder if this puts any pressure on Tennessee to rebuild the South Fulton interchange at US 45/45E/45W?

That's great news. I found this article so that I could see when the construction will be completed: https://www.wkms.org/business-economy/2022-12-01/beshear-announces-purchase-parkway-upgrade-i-69-extending-from-mayfield-to-fulton
Quote
According to a release from the governor’s office, the upgrade is estimated to cost $33.9 million and is expected to be completed by late 2024. Jim Smith Contracting of Grand Rivers was awarded the contract.

Governor's Press Release
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triplemultiplex

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Re: I-69 in TN
« Reply #784 on: December 02, 2022, 11:49:55 AM »

Did TDOT ever give a good reason why they chose not to upgrade the existing bypass, or at least the northern part of it? A brand new bypass here strikes me as a colossal waste of time and money.

I have not personally seen a satisfactory explanation.  Something about it being "simpler" to go way around?
Quite the boondoggle.
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hbelkins

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Re: I-69 in TN
« Reply #785 on: December 02, 2022, 12:56:59 PM »

Did TDOT ever give a good reason why they chose not to upgrade the existing bypass, or at least the northern part of it? A brand new bypass here strikes me as a colossal waste of time and money.

I have not personally seen a satisfactory explanation.  Something about it being "simpler" to go way around?
Quite the boondoggle.

ROW costs, perhaps?
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froggie

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Re: I-69 in TN
« Reply #786 on: December 02, 2022, 02:17:13 PM »

^ If "ROW costs" was their excuse, they didn't make an attempt in good faith.  An urban cross section and tight-diamond interchanges would largely fit inside the existing bypass ROW.
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abqtraveler

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Re: I-69 in TN
« Reply #787 on: December 02, 2022, 04:18:21 PM »

Kentucky announced today that the Purchase Parkway from the state line to Mayfield will be reconstructed to interstate standards to be signed as I-69. This includes rebuilding the toll booth cloverleaf at Wingo (KY 339) into a diamond interchange, and improvements to some Kentucky exits near Fulton. Wonder if this puts any pressure on Tennessee to rebuild the South Fulton interchange at US 45/45E/45W?
That and construction moving forward on the Ohio River Bridge between Henderson and Evansville, and the final section from Martinsville to Indianapolis nearing completion, will all create a forcing function for Tennessee to get their portion completed to at least Dyersburg.  Tennessee can only kick the can down the road so far before the additional traffic (as the route further north is completed) starts showing up in West Tennessee. Furthermore, Tennessee will eventually have to start focusing on the Dyersburg-Memphis segment, as Missouri and Arkansas will only tolerate so much additional traffic from points north crossing the I-155 bridge and then being dumped onto I-55 and I-40.
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edwaleni

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Re: I-69 in TN
« Reply #788 on: December 02, 2022, 09:53:24 PM »

Is there a reason I-69 isn't using most of the existing US-51 bypass around Union City? From what I can tell on Google Maps, it looks like a lot of it could easily be upgraded to interstate standards.

Something I have repeated lamented in this thread.

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=3841.msg2530914#msg2530914

Somewhere in the back of this thread I posted some language from the original EIS that commented on the ROW decision and why.
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civilengineeringnerd

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Re: I-69 in TN
« Reply #789 on: December 03, 2022, 11:10:07 AM »

Kentucky announced today that the Purchase Parkway from the state line to Mayfield will be reconstructed to interstate standards to be signed as I-69. This includes rebuilding the toll booth cloverleaf at Wingo (KY 339) into a diamond interchange, and improvements to some Kentucky exits near Fulton. Wonder if this puts any pressure on Tennessee to rebuild the South Fulton interchange at US 45/45E/45W?
personally i hope so. that interchange does need a complete overhaul.
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civilengineeringnerd

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Re: I-69 in TN
« Reply #790 on: December 03, 2022, 11:14:16 AM »

^ If "ROW costs" was their excuse, they didn't make an attempt in good faith.  An urban cross section and tight-diamond interchanges would largely fit inside the existing bypass ROW.
another would be a texas style freeway. frontage roads, and overpasses with ramps connecting the frontage roads. but tennessee acts like that would be bad.  :rolleyes:
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civilengineeringnerd

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Re: I-69 in TN
« Reply #791 on: December 03, 2022, 11:24:07 AM »

also I-44s tolls are not electronic, you have to drive up to a toll booth, which is not what i want for I-40, its too heavily trafficked.
...
personally any tolls in Tennessee needs to be electronic, unless you want 15 mile backups. and no TDOT isn't gonna pull a Oklahoma and start tolling ramps, rural counties won't have it, neither will places like Jackson where their ramps are already tightly packed together.

Oklahoma is transitioning to all electronic tolling:
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=28470.0
They are actively closing the cash tollbooths right now.

its either that, or we split off the funding, tolling I-40 from memphis to the benton county line just after exit 126, and letting a private company manage the tolls and have them send 50% of the profits to a west tennessee foundation thats founded from the counties wanting a piece of the toll pie, that helps the private interests and gets projects done is better. we could have it electronically tolled from exit 12, to exit 126, or we can add a 3rd express tolled lane in the middle.
and with the profits, we can easily get major projects funded that need the extra cash inflow, like I-69 and a completion of I-269 around the western side of memphis.

All your toll revenue would get swallowed by that idea for a third lane in each direction (which it could for sure use, but $$). None left for other projects.
Also thumbs down to private toll operators. Those have not been a good arrangement for drivers on The Skyway and the Indiana Toll Road, in my opinion.  Especially if the goal is to generate revenue for other highway projects.  Now you have some company skimming money off the operation; money that could be used for public infrastructure, not private profit.

What Tennessee needs to do is simply let themselves borrow money to build shit.  This pay-as-you-go model is actually costing the state's taxpayers MORE money than if the state simply floated some bonds to get things built faster and more cost-effectively.  Plus, you also get the tremendous economic benefit of HAVING the infrastructure while you're paying it off.  You come out way ahead by borrowing to build.

At this point, Tennessee has spent 12 years and probably a hundred million dollars building that arduous bypass of Union City.  And it's STILL a year from completion.  And even then, it still won't be done-done because they have to keep building south around Troy, which based on precedent, will probably take ANOTHER goddamn decade.  So they're spending all this money for such a long time and getting no benefit out of it at all.  If 15 years ago, they were able to bond this project, they could've had the funds to get the entire thing under construction and built in like 4 years, probably.  That's about what it would take in any other state these days.  Then for the last decade, they'd have the completed freeway open to the public benefit, generating new opportunities for their tax base and get things moving.  It's penny-wise and pound foolish the way they've gone about this project and many others.  I don't like it; it makes us look bad as a country.  Fourteen frickin' years to build six miles of rural freeway over level ground?  Pathetic!

"All your toll revenue would get swallowed by that idea for a third lane in each direction (which it could for sure use, but $$). None left for other projects.
Also thumbs down to private toll operators. Those have not been a good arrangement for drivers on The Skyway and the Indiana Toll Road, in my opinion.  Especially if the goal is to generate revenue for other highway projects.  Now you have some company skimming money off the operation; money that could be used for public infrastructure, not private profit."
im pro-private roads for one reason: they manage the road better at less cost. the indiana toll road, while i don't know of its condition now, the governor that sold it said they were losing money on that toll road before they sold it off. if a red state like indiana years ago was losing money on a toll road, i see no reason for tennessee to not lease major routes in tennessee to private companies
"What Tennessee needs to do is simply let themselves borrow money to build shit.  This pay-as-you-go model is actually costing the state's taxpayers MORE money than if the state simply floated some bonds to get things built faster and more cost-effectively.  Plus, you also get the tremendous economic benefit of HAVING the infrastructure while you're paying it off.  You come out way ahead by borrowing to build."
tennnessee is trying to avoid future fiscal burdens on its infrastructure. california borrows money for their roads, and they are so far behind on their infrastructure its borderline 3rd world. i can understand why tennessee wants to do the pay as you go model, they see it as better for the taxpayers because its not putting a burden on them in the future.
"At this point, Tennessee has spent 12 years and probably a hundred million dollars building that arduous bypass of Union City.  And it's STILL a year from completion.  And even then, it still won't be done-done because they have to keep building south around Troy, which based on precedent, will probably take ANOTHER goddamn decade.  So they're spending all this money for such a long time and getting no benefit out of it at all.  If 15 years ago, they were able to bond this project, they could've had the funds to get the entire thing under construction and built in like 4 years, probably.  That's about what it would take in any other state these days.  Then for the last decade, they'd have the completed freeway open to the public benefit, generating new opportunities for their tax base and get things moving.  It's penny-wise and pound foolish the way they've gone about this project and many others.  I don't like it; it makes us look bad as a country.  Fourteen frickin' years to build six miles of rural freeway over level ground?  Pathetic!"
what makes us look bad as a country is how we built our roads, grid, bridges, dams, leeves, etc and never thought of the future maintence, replacements, expansions and modernization projects that would be needed decades down the road, and never bothered to make sure the funding got adjusted for both inflation and demand.
shortsightedness is whats making us look bad today, not tennessees pay as you go way of updating infrastructure. tennessee just needs to raise the gas tax by 30 cents, instead of the 8 cents with private benefits in 2016. let the companies leave the state, we got roads to build, if they don't like that, then fine, they can go to another state.
also part of that 8 cent raise had to go to bike lanes and other infrastructure that should be put off till we get ours updated completely, they're luxury infrastructure projects that should be forced to wait till we got the roads updated, and maintained well.
if not 30 cents, then lease out the interstates to private companies, so other projects are opened up.
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civilengineeringnerd

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Re: I-69 in TN
« Reply #792 on: December 03, 2022, 11:44:35 AM »

the entire situation with I-69 was held up because tennessee wanted the feds to pay for it when they could've just opted out of it to begin with. and that bypass around union city, i can agree that was a dumb move. they should've used the existing bypass and upgraded that, and used a texas style freeway design to do it.
instead tennessee lawmakers wanted to be petty and force the feds to pay for it, and when they emptied their pockets and nothing came out, they should've had kentucky, missouri and arkansas to pick up the route.
12+ years and the very first leg of I-69 is still not completed. i'd be more surprised if the feds will give tennessee money for infrastructure. if I-69 was a private road, it would've been built in a couple of years, minimum, from kentucky to mississippi.  :rolleyes:
they could've raised the gas taxes by 30 cents years ago, told the public "hey, feds won't pay for it, and we need more tax revenue for many projects in the state." pretty sure 90% of tennesseeans would've been on board back then, with the 10% not caring or being total karens. I-24 in middle tennessee would probably be widened instead of made smarter, I-69 would be completed by now, and I-40 from memphis to nashville probably would've been widened to 3 lanes with safety improvements done.
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hbelkins

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Re: I-69 in TN
« Reply #793 on: December 03, 2022, 08:28:07 PM »

Kentucky announced today that the Purchase Parkway from the state line to Mayfield will be reconstructed to interstate standards to be signed as I-69. This includes rebuilding the toll booth cloverleaf at Wingo (KY 339) into a diamond interchange, and improvements to some Kentucky exits near Fulton. Wonder if this puts any pressure on Tennessee to rebuild the South Fulton interchange at US 45/45E/45W?
That and construction moving forward on the Ohio River Bridge between Henderson and Evansville, and the final section from Martinsville to Indianapolis nearing completion, will all create a forcing function for Tennessee to get their portion completed to at least Dyersburg.  Tennessee can only kick the can down the road so far before the additional traffic (as the route further north is completed) starts showing up in West Tennessee. Furthermore, Tennessee will eventually have to start focusing on the Dyersburg-Memphis segment, as Missouri and Arkansas will only tolerate so much additional traffic from points north crossing the I-155 bridge and then being dumped onto I-55 and I-40.

Curious as to what they can do other than 'tolerate" it. They certainly can't force Tennessee to build anything entirely within its own boundaries.
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Re: I-69 in TN
« Reply #794 on: December 03, 2022, 09:28:00 PM »

^ Not all traffic will follow I-155 to I-55 either… US-51 is shorter and more direct and may end up attracting a lot of the traffic too… overloading it further, and warranting upgrades by Tennessee to their own road… which would ideally involve a new freeway.
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abqtraveler

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Re: I-69 in TN
« Reply #795 on: December 05, 2022, 09:29:01 AM »

Kentucky announced today that the Purchase Parkway from the state line to Mayfield will be reconstructed to interstate standards to be signed as I-69. This includes rebuilding the toll booth cloverleaf at Wingo (KY 339) into a diamond interchange, and improvements to some Kentucky exits near Fulton. Wonder if this puts any pressure on Tennessee to rebuild the South Fulton interchange at US 45/45E/45W?
That and construction moving forward on the Ohio River Bridge between Henderson and Evansville, and the final section from Martinsville to Indianapolis nearing completion, will all create a forcing function for Tennessee to get their portion completed to at least Dyersburg.  Tennessee can only kick the can down the road so far before the additional traffic (as the route further north is completed) starts showing up in West Tennessee. Furthermore, Tennessee will eventually have to start focusing on the Dyersburg-Memphis segment, as Missouri and Arkansas will only tolerate so much additional traffic from points north crossing the I-155 bridge and then being dumped onto I-55 and I-40.

Curious as to what they can do other than 'tolerate" it. They certainly can't force Tennessee to build anything entirely within its own boundaries.
Has there ever been a lawsuit where one or more states have sued another state, in attempt to force that state to prioritize a highway or other infrastructure project, on the basis that inaction on such project by the defendant state is creating a detrimental effect of some kind on the plaintiff states?

I think it would be a novel approach to force Tennessee to prioritize completing I-69...should Missouri and Arkansas somehow convince a federal judge that dumping I-69 traffic onto I-55 and I-40 would have detrimental economic impacts to both states (I-40 between Memphis and Little Rock is already clogged with truck traffic), and thus order Tennessee to complete I-69.

It would be a very long shot, but I'm curious if this has been attempted in the past.
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sprjus4

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Re: I-69 in TN
« Reply #796 on: December 05, 2022, 10:18:52 AM »

^ How exactly would Tennessee not completing I-69 affect I-40 in Arkansas?

I-69 and I-40 would cross in Tennessee, prior to entering Arkansas. I-69 north of there has no impact on I-40 in Arkansas.

Not to mention, wouldn’t all the traffic that would be diverted to I-69 already mostly using I-55 south of I-57 in Missouri already?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2022, 10:21:07 AM by sprjus4 »
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rte66man

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Re: I-69 in TN
« Reply #797 on: December 05, 2022, 10:54:52 AM »

^ Not all traffic will follow I-155 to I-55 either… US-51 is shorter and more direct and may end up attracting a lot of the traffic too… overloading it further, and warranting upgrades by Tennessee to their own road… which would ideally involve a new freeway.

Uhh, have you ever drive 51 from Dyersburg to Millington? Not too bad until you get to Ripley. From there south through the center of Covington, through Atoka, Brighton, and Mumford to 269 is nothing but stop and go traffic with low speed limits and way too many traffic signals. If given a viable alternative such as 155 to 55, most trucks would take it over 51.
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When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

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I-55

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Re: I-69 in TN
« Reply #798 on: December 10, 2022, 01:40:22 AM »

^ Not all traffic will follow I-155 to I-55 either… US-51 is shorter and more direct and may end up attracting a lot of the traffic too… overloading it further, and warranting upgrades by Tennessee to their own road… which would ideally involve a new freeway.

Uhh, have you ever drive 51 from Dyersburg to Millington? Not too bad until you get to Ripley. From there south through the center of Covington, through Atoka, Brighton, and Mumford to 269 is nothing but stop and go traffic with low speed limits and way too many traffic signals. If given a viable alternative such as 155 to 55, most trucks would take it over 51.

Last time I passed through Union City I was traveling to Collierville and we were routed US 412 -> TN 54 -> TN 76 -> I 40. So depending on which part of Memphis (or surrounding area) you're aiming for there's 3 (maybe more) plausible routes, two of which are in TN.
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Avalanchez71

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Re: I-69 in TN
« Reply #799 on: December 10, 2022, 06:39:25 PM »

So the media is trying to play snippets of tolling lanes here in Tennessee.  They are trying to say that bills may be introduced to be able to toll certain lanes.  The comments section is full of folks saying, no thanks.

They are also proposing to triple the registration fee for EVs to compensate for the decrease in the gas tax and what one would pay if they were paying the gas tax.  $100 to $300.
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