US-75 Expansion/Construction between north of Dallas and the TX/OK state line

Started by TheBox, November 10, 2023, 11:34:20 AM

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Bobby5280

Quote from: longhornWhy to Tulsa? Political reasons?

It sounds more like Tulsa's rivalry with OKC. The OKC metro is a major hub of the Interstate highway system (and the previous US Highway network). Some people want Tulsa to seem "equal" to OKC on the map; routing a North-South Interstate highway through there would be a step in that direction.

Still, the fact remains US-69 is a more important commerce corridor in Oklahoma than US-75 going into Tulsa. Trucks coming up from the DFW area are headed to Big Cabin rather than Tulsa for multiple reasons. Going to Big Cabin shaves some miles off the route as opposed to going into Tulsa. It's easier for a trucker to drive through towns like Muskogee and Pryor than deal with much heavier traffic in Tulsa.

Some fictional ideas call for I-45 to be extended thru Tulsa up to Kansas City. I think that would be a wasteful duplication of efforts. I-35 and I-49 already go up to the KC metro. Then there is the issue of how the US-75, US-169 and US-69 corridors North of I-44 spread out the rural traffic load. There are bits of limited access highway on all three routes, along with mixes of 2-lane and 4-lane highway. They can't all be converted to Interstate quality.

If interests in Tulsa really want a full Interstate quality connection with Dallas via US-75 they need to start getting things fixed in their own back yard. US-75 going South out of Tulsa has all kinds of problems.


TheBox

Quote from: Bobby5280 on June 19, 2024, 01:18:53 PM
Quote from: longhornWhy to Tulsa? Political reasons?

It sounds more like Tulsa's rivalry with OKC. The OKC metro is a major hub of the Interstate highway system (and the previous US Highway network). Some people want Tulsa to seem "equal" to OKC on the map; routing a North-South Interstate highway through there would be a step in that direction.

Still, the fact remains US-69 is a more important commerce corridor in Oklahoma than US-75 going into Tulsa. Trucks coming up from the DFW area are headed to Big Cabin rather than Tulsa for multiple reasons. Going to Big Cabin shaves some miles off the route as opposed to going into Tulsa. It's easier for a trucker to drive through towns like Muskogee and Pryor than deal with much heavier traffic in Tulsa.

Some fictional ideas call for I-45 to be extended thru Tulsa up to Kansas City. I think that would be a wasteful duplication of efforts. I-35 and I-49 already go up to the KC metro. Then there is the issue of how the US-75, US-169 and US-69 corridors North of I-44 spread out the rural traffic load. There are bits of limited access highway on all three routes, along with mixes of 2-lane and 4-lane highway. They can't all be converted to Interstate quality.

If interests in Tulsa really want a full Interstate quality connection with Dallas via US-75 they need to start getting things fixed in their own back yard. US-75 going South out of Tulsa has all kinds of problems.

And above all else, they need a bypass around Okmulgee and to either realign the US-69 @ INT intersection or make direct 2-lane ramps connecting INT (Indian Nation Turnpike) with US-69 at McAlester.

And also update it at Henryetta too after those two obstacles are over with.

Anyways the Tulsa interstate can be a hypothetical I-445 or I-545, whiling the main I-45 extension can skip pass Tulsa and straight to Big Cabin. But that's enough fictional / hypothetical talk from me.
Wake me up when they upgrade US-290 between the state's largest city and growing capital into expressway standards if it interstate standards.

Giddings bypass, Elgin bypass, and Elgin-Manor freeway/tollway when?

splashflash

Quote from: TheBox on June 19, 2024, 05:06:01 PMto either realign the US-69 @ INT intersection or make direct 2-lane ramps connecting INT (Indian Nation Turnpike) with US-69 at McAlester. 
There are plans by OTA to do just that: 

An important part of the ACCESS Long Range Plan includes several projects that will improve existing facilities or provide new or improved access points to communities throughout the state.

Current planned interchange projects:
- Indian Nation Turnpike: Improvements to the US-69 Interchange near McAlester

https://www.accessoklahoma.com/interchange-improvements

[/quote]

Bobby5280

Quote from: TheBoxAnd above all else, they need a bypass around Okmulgee and to either realign the US-69 @ INT intersection or make direct 2-lane ramps connecting INT (Indian Nation Turnpike) with US-69 at McAlester.

I agree Okmulgee needs a freeway bypass. Getting one built could be as difficult as the effort to build one in Muskogee, if not more so. In the case of Muskogee, ODOT could simply build a new bypass farther West, well outside Muskogee city limits, if the city tried forcing ODOT's hand for a permanent Breezewood there.

OK-56 in Okmulgee looks like a failed effort to lay the groundwork for a bypass. Since US-75 cuts thru the middle of town any new bypass would have to shift at least 2-3 miles East or West of town. Creeks and wetlands border the West side of town, although that would be the shorter approach for a bypass.

I think US-75 in Henryetta is an easier problem to fix. Only a few commercial businesses are built anywhere close to the highway. It would be cheaper to upgrade in place. Just squeeze in frontage roads and slip ramps where needed. The frontage roads and main lanes can be separated by Jersey barriers in tight spots.

Road Hog

Just getting I-45 to Checotah is a win to me. We'll see how the rest plays out. US 69 is mostly upgradeable except for the portions that runs through towns. The politics will have to change, but I'm confident they will.

mvak36

Quote from: Road Hog on June 20, 2024, 04:02:49 AMJust getting I-45 to Checotah is a win to me. We'll see how the rest plays out. US 69 is mostly upgradeable except for the portions that runs through towns. The politics will have to change, but I'm confident they will.

Partly fictional, but if OK can ever get I-45 upgraded all the way to I-44, then I could see it getting to the Kansas City metro. Kansas is going to eventually upgrade most of US69/US400/US166 to freeway (at least they have plans to now). So OK could just multiplex I-45 along I-44 and the two states (and possibly MO) would have to figure out how to connect the two segments.
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ZLoth

Quote from: Road Hog on June 20, 2024, 04:02:49 AMJust getting I-45 to Checotah is a win to me. We'll see how the rest plays out. US 69 is mostly upgradeable except for the portions that runs through towns. The politics will have to change, but I'm confident they will.

I don't see US-69 getting the traffic that US-75 between North Dallas and Atoka, Oklahoma, and the section between the Oklahoma state line and Atoka is combined US-69/US-75. Even in Atoka, US-69 going north is a mix of two and four lane roadway while US-75 becomes a two-lane road.
Don't Drive Distrac... SQUIRREL!

Bobby5280

Quote from: Road HogJust getting I-45 to Checotah is a win to me. We'll see how the rest plays out. US 69 is mostly upgradeable except for the portions that runs through towns. The politics will have to change, but I'm confident they will.

Atoka and Stringtown are apparently the main road blocks for converting all of US-69 to Interstate standards from the Red River to I-40. What ODOT can do is upgrade segments of US-69 elsewhere (since there is still so much work to do) and leave the Tushka-Stringtown segment to do last. Those towns are not growing (most of rural Oklahoma is shedding population). The political clout those towns apparently have is going to be eroded by aging residents dying off or moving elsewhere.

In the meantime the US-69 expressway in McAlester is slowly being converted into a freeway. The US-69 interchange with the Indian Nation Turnpike is going to be converted into a full cloverleaf. I could have sworn I saw plans somewhere regarding a freeway upgrade/bypass of Savanna to improve access to the Army Ammunition Plant there. If that work is done it could push an all-freeway US-69 from I-40 down to Kiowa. All the stuff on US-69 from the Red River up to Tushka would be easy to improve to Interstate standards.

Quote from: ZLothI don't see US-69 getting the traffic that US-75 between North Dallas and Atoka, Oklahoma, and the section between the Oklahoma state line and Atoka is combined US-69/US-75. Even in Atoka, US-69 going north is a mix of two and four lane roadway while US-75 becomes a two-lane road.

There is a shit-ton of trucks taking US-69 from the Red River to Big Cabin. Truck traffic picks up quite a lot on I-44 going East of the Big Cabin exit (and truck traffic is already pretty heavy coming from OKC). An improved, all limited access US-69 route would provide an effective relief route for OKC and Tulsa.

MikieTimT

Quote from: Bobby5280 on June 20, 2024, 01:48:08 PM
Quote from: Road HogJust getting I-45 to Checotah is a win to me. We'll see how the rest plays out. US 69 is mostly upgradeable except for the portions that runs through towns. The politics will have to change, but I'm confident they will.

Atoka and Stringtown are apparently the main road blocks for converting all of US-69 to Interstate standards from the Red River to I-40. What ODOT can do is upgrade segments of US-69 elsewhere (since there is still so much work to do) and leave the Tushka-Stringtown segment to do last. Those towns are not growing (most of rural Oklahoma is shedding population). The political clout those towns apparently have is going to be eroded by aging residents dying off or moving elsewhere.

In the meantime the US-69 expressway in McAlester is slowly being converted into a freeway. The US-69 interchange with the Indian Nation Turnpike is going to be converted into a full cloverleaf. I could have sworn I saw plans somewhere regarding a freeway upgrade/bypass of Savanna to improve access to the Army Ammunition Plant there. If that work is done it could push an all-freeway US-69 from I-40 down to Kiowa. All the stuff on US-69 from the Red River up to Tushka would be easy to improve to Interstate standards.

Quote from: ZLothI don't see US-69 getting the traffic that US-75 between North Dallas and Atoka, Oklahoma, and the section between the Oklahoma state line and Atoka is combined US-69/US-75. Even in Atoka, US-69 going north is a mix of two and four lane roadway while US-75 becomes a two-lane road.

There is a shit-ton of trucks taking US-69 from the Red River to Big Cabin. Truck traffic picks up quite a lot on I-44 going East of the Big Cabin exit (and truck traffic is already pretty heavy coming from OKC). An improved, all limited access US-69 route would provide an effective relief route for OKC and Tulsa.

I wish that ODOT had trucks broken out on percentages like ARDOT does on AADT, and it would be nice if they included counts on the turnpikes and truck percentages as well.  It'd also be nice if they posted information post-COVID.  This is all I could find on AADT for Oklahoma.  It looks like it just doesn't make any sense at all to 4 lane US-75 north of Atoka and south of I-40.  It's barely any extra mileage at all to just continue up US-69 and take the Indian Nation Turnpike up to Henryetta, which are 4 lanes already, but really could use some bypasses in some speed trap towns.

https://www.odot.org/maps/aadt/2018/StateMapAADT.pdf

If US-75 south of Tulsa needed to be an Interstate, it'd make more sense as a *40/*44 3DI to Henryetta and leave it there.  US-69/75 south of Atoka certainly makes sense to be part of an extended I-45.

Plutonic Panda

Tulsa needs a non tolled interstate in and out of the metro. It isn't fair that every freeway in and out of the city is tolled. I-45 and I-42 would help with that. I am of the opinion tolls on I-44 need to be removed.

Bobby5280

Oklahoma has one of the lowest gasoline tax rates in the country. If tolls were removed from I-44 and ODOT was given the responsibility of maintaining/improving those former turnpikes the gasoline tax rates would have to be hiked a good bit.

Plutonic Panda

Quote from: Bobby5280 on June 20, 2024, 07:39:13 PMOklahoma has one of the lowest gasoline tax rates in the country. If tolls were removed from I-44 and ODOT was given the responsibility of maintaining/improving those former turnpikes the gasoline tax rates would have to be hiked a good bit.
As it needs to be. Somehow other states with good roads have found a way to not have tons of tolls.

Great Lakes Roads

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 20, 2024, 05:19:18 PMTulsa needs a non tolled interstate in and out of the metro. It isn't fair that every freeway in and out of the city is tolled. I-45 and I-42 would help with that. I am of the opinion tolls on I-44 need to be removed.

Sorry, can't do that...
-Jay Seaburg

Plutonic Panda

Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on June 20, 2024, 08:02:43 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 20, 2024, 05:19:18 PMTulsa needs a non tolled interstate in and out of the metro. It isn't fair that every freeway in and out of the city is tolled. I-45 and I-42 would help with that. I am of the opinion tolls on I-44 need to be removed.

Sorry, can't do that...
True. True.



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