I-25 North Widening - Longmont to Fort Collins

[JayhawkCO]

Well, I worked for a TV station in Colorado Springs.  As a meterologist.  So, yeah, I understand your reality better than you think. Have seen snow on Oct 15 and May 8th as well as 70 degrees in December. It's not a bad climate, but it's hardly the mildest. You usually have a 120 F range of temperatures during the course of a year.  Just because you have not had a 100 degree day this year doesn't mean that they never happen. This year has not been typical, with the worst of the heat generally trapped south of the CO/NM border and/or west of the divide (SLC had several 100+ days).

I know we get snow over a longer period of time that other places, but my whole point is that is that we don't often get a ton at once, despite the perception from around the country. I don't mind a dusting in October. Getting 1/4" is not a big deal in the slightest.

And I know we CAN get 100° days, but you mentioned that they're not uncommon. I would say, yes, they are uncommon. We might get a couple in an average summer. That's not common, especially compared to San Antonio, Las Vegas, etc.

The points I'm mainly staunchly arguing against are these:

Did I mention the weather in Colorado can be downright hostile about 8 months out of the year?

Are you smoking crack? Front range weather is some of the worst in the entire country.

It's not hostile 8 months out of the year. It's not even hostile 2 months out of the year. Yeah, occasionally we get a huge spring snow storm. The other 11 months out of that year are likely very much un-hostile. And saying that we have some of the worst weather in the entire country is the opposite of true. I think, if you like four distinct seasons, that Denver has the best weather of anywhere in the country.

[US 89]

Denver has pretty much my perfect weather. But that’s because I am a meteorologist who loves changeable, active, occasionally extreme weather. My idea of “good” weather is the normal person’s “bad”.

I grew up in Salt Lake City and think their weather is just about perfect, but as far as I’m concerned Denver improves on it in a few ways: it’s higher elevation, so extreme heat isn’t as common, it gets more in the way of severe storms (large hail and tornadoes), and it is more susceptible to Arctic blasts since there aren’t any mountains protecting it from interior Canada.

[Duke87]

Colorado's refusal to add any sort of non-toll capacity anymore, anywhere, is nothing short of astounding.

Hey, at least they're adding a lane. That's more than would happen in certain other states, many of them in the northeast.

Of course, it's not a coincidence that a lot of expats from the northeast live in Denver now. They've taken their northeastern NIMBYness with them.

[ski-man]

Being a former meteorologist that lives in WYO, loving this weather debate :-). At least you do not have the winds we have up here.

[zachary_amaryllis]

Well they got a 501 million dollar loan. You guessed it, the proposal is to add an express lane.

https://denvergazette.com/news/cdot-express-lane-loan-i25/article_7acc92ee-3602-11ee-89ec-a3099c2eb054.html

Living near Fort Collins, I travel to Denver sometimes. And I've given up on that stretch of I-25 for the time being. I'll use 287 to the north end of Longmont, then take 66 to the interstate and pick it up there, well south of most of the construction, except for whatever they're doing at the 119 interchange. I'm always looking for good alt routes, though. CR 5 will take you from CO 14, to Loveland, for example, and isn't a terrible road.

To me, this isn't adding capacity, or lanes. I'm not really willing to pay to jump the line. Plus, since you can't dip out of the express lane (I dunno ... can you do it at the places near the exits where the line is dotted?) , to pass someone, it works great till you get Walter and Mildred poking along at 50. I've also seen, coming out of Denver, what happens when the express lane ends on the north end. All that stopped traffic you whizzed by at 80mph? They remember you.

I am NOT surprised that CDOT is adding a toll lane in each direction! This is CDOT's way of adding lanes...

[zachary_amaryllis]

Well, I worked for a TV station in Colorado Springs. 

They (not necessarily you, all of 'em) always got Canon City wrong. I lived in Canon City for like 7 years (yep - did time), and we got COS TV stations. Always felt like 5/30 had it closest.

They tended in hot-weather events, to lowball the predicted highs (one day: predicted 92, actual 104), and overestimate precip chances. Not knocking you, I know it's kind of an imprecise science.

But I always wondered - do you guys kinda fudge the forecasts, to what the people want? Say, we're in this long string of hundred degree days, do you toss a 92 or something in there, just to give some 'hope'? I noticed, (again, this is many stations) around Christmas, e.g., a lot of stations will pencil in a 10% chance of snow, even though there's nothing there.

Don't suppose you're Venticinque, are you? Always liked that guy.

[JayhawkCO]

Denver has pretty much my perfect weather. But that's because I am a meteorologist who loves changeable, active, occasionally extreme weather. My idea of "good"  weather is the normal person's "bad" .

I grew up in Salt Lake City and think their weather is just about perfect, but as far as I'm concerned Denver improves on it in a few ways: it's higher elevation, so extreme heat isn't as common, it gets more in the way of severe storms (large hail and tornadoes), and it is more susceptible to Arctic blasts since there aren't any mountains protecting it from interior Canada.

And we don't have the terrible smog since our mountains are to the west and not to the east.

[US 89]

Denver has pretty much my perfect weather. But that's because I am a meteorologist who loves changeable, active, occasionally extreme weather. My idea of "good"  weather is the normal person's "bad" .

I grew up in Salt Lake City and think their weather is just about perfect, but as far as I'm concerned Denver improves on it in a few ways: it's higher elevation, so extreme heat isn't as common, it gets more in the way of severe storms (large hail and tornadoes), and it is more susceptible to Arctic blasts since there aren't any mountains protecting it from interior Canada.

And we don't have the terrible smog since our mountains are to the west and not to the east.

What really hurts Salt Lake is that it's in a valley pretty much surrounded by mountains. You have a big open expanse to your east.

[Rothman]

Denver has pretty much my perfect weather. But that's because I am a meteorologist who loves changeable, active, occasionally extreme weather. My idea of "good"  weather is the normal person's "bad" .

I grew up in Salt Lake City and think their weather is just about perfect, but as far as I'm concerned Denver improves on it in a few ways: it's higher elevation, so extreme heat isn't as common, it gets more in the way of severe storms (large hail and tornadoes), and it is more susceptible to Arctic blasts since there aren't any mountains protecting it from interior Canada.

And we don't have the terrible smog since our mountains are to the west and not to the east.

What really hurts Salt Lake is that it's in a valley pretty much surrounded by mountains. You have a big open expanse to your east.

What really hurts Salt Lake is the ongoing mentality that pollution is a necessary byproduct of human productivity and therefore nothing will be done about it.

In the meantime, my fellow Mormons still wax romantic about "this beautiful valley God led us to" and whatnot, when the beauty is now only seen when you look up to the mountains and try to ignore the valley.

The smog is weather and SLC's is actually toxic.

[US 89]

Denver has pretty much my perfect weather. But that’s because I am a meteorologist who loves changeable, active, occasionally extreme weather. My idea of “good” weather is the normal person’s “bad”.

I grew up in Salt Lake City and think their weather is just about perfect, but as far as I’m concerned Denver improves on it in a few ways: it’s higher elevation, so extreme heat isn’t as common, it gets more in the way of severe storms (large hail and tornadoes), and it is more susceptible to Arctic blasts since there aren’t any mountains protecting it from interior Canada.

And we don't have the terrible smog since our mountains are to the west and not to the east.

What really hurts Salt Lake is that it’s in a valley pretty much surrounded by mountains. You have a big open expanse to your east.

What really hurts Salt Lake is the ongoing mentality that pollution is a necessary byproduct of human productivity and therefore nothing will be done about it.

In the meantime, my fellow Mormons still wax romantic about "this beautiful valley God led us to" and whatnot, when the beauty is now only seen when you look up to the mountains and try to ignore the valley.

The smog is weather and SLC's is actually toxic.

Ongoing mentality? I get the sense you haven't spent much time in Salt Lake in the last 15 years.

If you ask a random set of Salt Lake County residents what the most important issues to them are, 9/10 will have "air quality" somewhere in their top three. The state legislature (a group often much less sensitive to these sorts of issues) many years ago implemented a burn ban on days when air quality is bad enough, which is actually enforced. State agencies now have work-from-home days when air quality is bad enough.

If you look at the actual numbers, wintertime air quality is certainly not good in the Wasatch Front today, but it is definitely better than it was 20 years ago. Far less "red" days than before. Also, half of the days in winter when you can't see the mountains, it's simply fog, which will happen in any valley like Salt Lake regardless of how much emissions you have. And the "orange" or "red" days combined only account for something like maybe 10-15 days across any given winter.

[Rothman]

Denver has pretty much my perfect weather. But that's because I am a meteorologist who loves changeable, active, occasionally extreme weather. My idea of "good"  weather is the normal person's "bad" .

I grew up in Salt Lake City and think their weather is just about perfect, but as far as I'm concerned Denver improves on it in a few ways: it's higher elevation, so extreme heat isn't as common, it gets more in the way of severe storms (large hail and tornadoes), and it is more susceptible to Arctic blasts since there aren't any mountains protecting it from interior Canada.

And we don't have the terrible smog since our mountains are to the west and not to the east.

What really hurts Salt Lake is that it's in a valley pretty much surrounded by mountains. You have a big open expanse to your east.

What really hurts Salt Lake is the ongoing mentality that pollution is a necessary byproduct of human productivity and therefore nothing will be done about it.

In the meantime, my fellow Mormons still wax romantic about "this beautiful valley God led us to" and whatnot, when the beauty is now only seen when you look up to the mountains and try to ignore the valley.

The smog is weather and SLC's is actually toxic.

Ongoing mentality? I get the sense you haven't spent much time in Salt Lake in the last 15 years.

If you ask a random set of Salt Lake County residents what the most important issues to them are, 9/10 will have "air quality" somewhere in their top three. The state legislature (a group often much less sensitive to these sorts of issues) many years ago implemented a burn ban on days when air quality is bad enough, which is actually enforced. State agencies now have work-from-home days when air quality is bad enough.

If you look at the actual numbers, wintertime air quality is certainly not good in the Wasatch Front today, but it is definitely better than it was 20 years ago. Far less "red" days than before. Also, half of the days in winter when you can't see the mountains, it's simply fog, which will happen in any valley like Salt Lake regardless of how much emissions you have. And the "orange" or "red" days combined only account for something like maybe 10-15 days across any given winter.

You certainly see the glass as half-full.

Sure, SLC has become more liberal over the years, thank goodness (to counter the "productivity above everything else" mantra that's dominated the area for decades), but being concerned about air quality and actually being willing to do something about it are two different animals.  Burn bans when you have refineries and mining operations and whatever else belching stuff out?  Flex seal on a leaking tank.  "Just don't go out when the air is toxic"?  That actually accommodates more pollution production.

And, of course, this is a state problem rather than city.  And a lot of Utah is still shrugging at the pollution as a necessary evil.

Take my uncle and aunt, who live in Millcreek:  Yep, they think the air quality stinks, but they're convinced that it's always been that way due to American Indians calling the Valley smoky back in ancient times, so there's nothing to be done about it from their point of view.  And besides, think about jobs, of course.

And then you have my 60-plus cousin-in-laws and their families and so on and so forth.

Glad the red days are diminishing in number.  For the last 50 years, the only couple I remember around here were due to the recent Canadian smoke...

Wonder if that toxic dust will blow up from the dry lake beds as recently predicted...

[ski-man]

I drove from Wyoming to Denver yesterday. WHAT A CLUSTER F***!!! I was stuck in traffic for hours southbound on 25 from Harmony all the way into Downtown Denver with a few very short places where the traffic sped up to maybe 45mph. And this is a Saturday afternoon. Even the alt routes were slow with traffic as per the map apps. I just have my doubts on how much better it will be with a tolled Express Lane from Ft Collins to Berthoud. Hopefully when they start from Berthoud to Mead if is a third lane and not a tolled Express Lane. Even in the north Denver suburbs, the Express Lane came to a standstill multiple times. Glad I was using the HOV 3+ option so I was not paying for that lane. Is CDOT that much underfunded where all new expansions are tolled? And from all my driving experience throughout the US, Colorado has some of the highest toll rates around, especially E-470.

[Plutonic Panda]

I wouldn't be as mad if they put two express lanes each way instead of one. Or if they paired a new express lane with a free lane so two new lanes are added instead of just one express lane. It also seems there are people who genuinely enjoy tying up traffic and driving right at the speed limit and not staying to the right when they can clearly look in a mirror and see how much traffic is backed up behind them no one in front. Then the free lanes move faster at times and that is frustrating to watch.

[Bobby5280]

And from all my driving experience throughout the US, Colorado has some of the highest toll rates around, especially E-470.

Yeah, no kidding. It costs $13 each way to drive from the South side of Denver and I-25 up to the airport (the cost is $8.15 if you have an Express Toll tag, which I don't have being from out of state). Even $8 is kind of pricey for that short of a drive. I can drive on I-44 from Lawton to the Missouri state line (almost 300 miles) and pay $12.50 for those tolls. That is the PikePass rate though.

[SD Mapman]

I drove from Wyoming to Denver yesterday. WHAT A CLUSTER F***!!! I was stuck in traffic for hours southbound on 25 from Harmony all the way into Downtown Denver with a few very short places where the traffic sped up to maybe 45mph. And this is a Saturday afternoon. Even the alt routes were slow with traffic as per the map apps. I just have my doubts on how much better it will be with a tolled Express Lane from Ft Collins to Berthoud. Hopefully when they start from Berthoud to Mead if is a third lane and not a tolled Express Lane. Even in the north Denver suburbs, the Express Lane came to a standstill multiple times. Glad I was using the HOV 3+ option so I was not paying for that lane. Is CDOT that much underfunded where all new expansions are tolled? And from all my driving experience throughout the US, Colorado has some of the highest toll rates around, especially E-470.

Depending on where you have to go in Denver the Weld County Parkway (CR 47/49) is amazing. My wife and I found it by accident when we lived in Laramie and were going to DIA one time, and used it the rest of the time we lived out there.

[ski-man]

I drove from Wyoming to Denver yesterday. WHAT A CLUSTER F***!!! I was stuck in traffic for hours southbound on 25 from Harmony all the way into Downtown Denver with a few very short places where the traffic sped up to maybe 45mph. And this is a Saturday afternoon. Even the alt routes were slow with traffic as per the map apps. I just have my doubts on how much better it will be with a tolled Express Lane from Ft Collins to Berthoud. Hopefully when they start from Berthoud to Mead if is a third lane and not a tolled Express Lane. Even in the north Denver suburbs, the Express Lane came to a standstill multiple times. Glad I was using the HOV 3+ option so I was not paying for that lane. Is CDOT that much underfunded where all new expansions are tolled? And from all my driving experience throughout the US, Colorado has some of the highest toll rates around, especially E-470.

Depending on where you have to go in Denver the Weld County Parkway (CR 47/49) is amazing. My wife and I found it by accident when we lived in Laramie and were going to DIA one time, and used it the rest of the time we lived out there.

Do you go to Cheyenne and then down the Greeley HWY to 34?

[SD Mapman]

I drove from Wyoming to Denver yesterday. WHAT A CLUSTER F***!!! I was stuck in traffic for hours southbound on 25 from Harmony all the way into Downtown Denver with a few very short places where the traffic sped up to maybe 45mph. And this is a Saturday afternoon. Even the alt routes were slow with traffic as per the map apps. I just have my doubts on how much better it will be with a tolled Express Lane from Ft Collins to Berthoud. Hopefully when they start from Berthoud to Mead if is a third lane and not a tolled Express Lane. Even in the north Denver suburbs, the Express Lane came to a standstill multiple times. Glad I was using the HOV 3+ option so I was not paying for that lane. Is CDOT that much underfunded where all new expansions are tolled? And from all my driving experience throughout the US, Colorado has some of the highest toll rates around, especially E-470.

Depending on where you have to go in Denver the Weld County Parkway (CR 47/49) is amazing. My wife and I found it by accident when we lived in Laramie and were going to DIA one time, and used it the rest of the time we lived out there.

Do you go to Cheyenne and then down the Greeley HWY to 34?

We turned at CO 392 but going down to 34 would work.

[US 89]

Is CDOT that much underfunded where all new expansions are tolled? And from all my driving experience throughout the US, Colorado has some of the highest toll rates around, especially E-470.

As I understand it, it is nothing to do with being underfunded and everything to do with politics. The tolls are the only way the powerful anti-car contingent that has seeped its way into CDOT and Colorado state government as a whole in recent years will ever allow any sort of highway expansion. They haven’t added any sort of non-tolled freeway capacity in years.

[zzcarp]

Is CDOT that much underfunded where all new expansions are tolled? And from all my driving experience throughout the US, Colorado has some of the highest toll rates around, especially E-470.

As I understand it, it is nothing to do with being underfunded and everything to do with politics. The tolls are the only way the powerful anti-car contingent that has seeped its way into CDOT and Colorado state government as a whole in recent years will ever allow any sort of highway expansion. They haven't added any sort of non-tolled freeway capacity in years.

In some respects CDOT is underfunded. The Denver metro's Regional Transportation District (RTD) that runs the buses and trains has a bigger budget than CDOT even though few utilize the system. But the anti-car faction is in charge at CDOT, so it's unlikely we'll get needed lane relief even when it makes engineering and fiscal sense. Chances are there will only be toll lanes built from now on.

[brad2971]

Is CDOT that much underfunded where all new expansions are tolled? And from all my driving experience throughout the US, Colorado has some of the highest toll rates around, especially E-470.

As I understand it, it is nothing to do with being underfunded and everything to do with politics. The tolls are the only way the powerful anti-car contingent that has seeped its way into CDOT and Colorado state government as a whole in recent years will ever allow any sort of highway expansion. They haven't added any sort of non-tolled freeway capacity in years.

In some respects CDOT is underfunded. The Denver metro's Regional Transportation District (RTD) that runs the buses and trains has a bigger budget than CDOT even though few utilize the system. But the anti-car faction is in charge at CDOT, so it's unlikely we'll get needed lane relief even when it makes engineering and fiscal sense. Chances are there will only be toll lanes built from now on.

1. CDOT can ask the voting public for a dedicated sales tax like RTD has at any time. Be careful, though: There is a voting history out there regarding statewide transportation proposals, and it's not a good one. There's a reason Colorado Springs, for example, has something to tap into called Pikes Peak Rural Transportation Authority (PPRTA).

2. When it comes to toll lanes, that's just CDOT saying that if the drivers want capacity increases, then they have to pay for them if they want them sooner than simply waiting for federal money that may never come.

[zachary_amaryllis]

I can use the express lanes since my company gave me a thingamabobber. They're nice, but often right up until where they end at 144th or whatever it is. I haven't personally been impacted by it, but I imagine there's times that all those stopped cars you whizzed by at 80, might remember you at the clogged merge point.

I don't know that I'd use them though, if I had to pay for it myself.

[mgk920]

Welcome to the land of bright eyed ex-patriot Californians . . .  < sigh... >

Mike

[JayhawkCO]

Welcome to the land of bright eyed ex-patriot Californians . . .  < sigh... >

Mike

More Texans lately if you go by the license plates.

[andrepoiy]

I just visited CO last week and I did drive up to Cheyenne from Denver. It was kind of jarring to see somewhat busy traffic volumes suddenly just drop once you pass maybe the CO-14 interchange.

[zachary_amaryllis]

I just visited CO last week and I did drive up to Cheyenne from Denver. It was kind of jarring to see somewhat busy traffic volumes suddenly just drop once you pass maybe the CO-14 interchange.

I live on 14 (about 20-25 miles 'highway west' of that interchange). 14's the last real 'civilization' on I-25, before Cheyenne, if you don't count Wellington. A lot of truck traffic bails there for 287 to Laramie, and it's the 'downtown' exit for Foco.

I ride the Bustang to Denver once a week, and it amazes me how every time, the traffic gets clogged around Platteville, where the road narrows from 3 to 2 lanes. Every time. Doesn't even mattter what time of day.