New York

[empirestate]

What parkway could help accomplish is setting up the flow with multiple stops and multiple points of interest. Whirpool, maybe power plants, ridge trails  - not as great as falls, but still worthwhile, and those could take pressure off the prime spot. E.g. offer services which don't have to be in a prime spot. Such arrangement would increase comfort big time, and allow for better crowd handling. I have South rim in mind as an example.
Right now, going to downstream points of interest means little, if any services...

The parkway had those stops.

Stops - and little more than that. A food truck selling just bottled water, and no restrooms available can be hardly called "services".
That's what I am saying - parkway could be used for a profit, but state  paid for the demolition instead.

Well, sure, they could have tried maybe going the other way with that, but they chose a direction that was more in keeping with the existing character of the U.S. side–and, let's face it, cheaper.

But what you're saying is that the only other possible option they had, short of trying your idea, was to give up altogether and just concede the entire tourist industry to Canada. Now of course, I realize you're saying that hyperbolically, but for those who might take you at your word, I'm just introducing for discussion the notion that things are obviously more nuanced than that.

(And part of that nuance is that the money that "pays" for demolition isn't a binary choice taken against the money that could have been "made" in profit. That's just not really how public expenditures work; it's similar to the idea that one shouldn't have to "pay" for the public schools if one doesn't have students enrolled in them, or for public roads if one doesn't own a car to drive on them, whereas of course the monies that come from the general public are meant for the greater benefit of the entire public. Likewise, the expenditure of funds to downgrade a parkway can realize a public benefit if the overall vitality of the area is improved, even if there isn't a directly quantifiable entry on the black side of the ledger.)

[kalvado]

What parkway could help accomplish is setting up the flow with multiple stops and multiple points of interest. Whirpool, maybe power plants, ridge trails  - not as great as falls, but still worthwhile, and those could take pressure off the prime spot. E.g. offer services which don't have to be in a prime spot. Such arrangement would increase comfort big time, and allow for better crowd handling. I have South rim in mind as an example.
Right now, going to downstream points of interest means little, if any services...

The parkway had those stops.

Stops - and little more than that. A food truck selling just bottled water, and no restrooms available can be hardly called "services".
That's what I am saying - parkway could be used for a profit, but state  paid for the demolition instead.

Well, sure, they could have tried maybe going the other way with that, but they chose a direction that was more in keeping with the existing character of the U.S. side–and, let's face it, cheaper.

But what you're saying is that the only other possible option they had, short of trying your idea, was to give up altogether and just concede the entire tourist industry to Canada. Now of course, I realize you're saying that hyperbolically, but for those who might take you at your word, I'm just introducing for discussion the notion that things are obviously more nuanced than that.

(And part of that nuance is that the money that "pays" for demolition isn't a binary choice taken against the money that could have been "made" in profit. That's just not really how public expenditures work; it's similar to the idea that one shouldn't have to "pay" for the public schools if one doesn't have students enrolled in them, or for public roads if one doesn't own a car to drive on them, whereas of course the monies that come from the general public are meant for the greater benefit of the entire public. Likewise, the expenditure of funds to downgrade a parkway can realize a public benefit if the overall vitality of the area is improved, even if there isn't a directly quantifiable entry on the black side of the ledger.)

Let me shift the perspective a little bit, away from the road and towards a bit higher level:
As we know, Niagara Falls is a state park - designated some 30 years before the National Park concept was created.
And it may be a significant factor in this discussion.
NY State Office of Parks, Recreation and Historic Preservation manages mostly "lakefront, grill, and hike" local parks, Niagara may be the only national and world class location they operats. Adirondak and Catskills are under DEC jurisdiction.
My impression is that NPS is much more experienced in managing such high class sites, creating a very different environment, while NY office takes on a task above their paygrade. ANd two major options here are NPS-style management vs "grill and hike" one.
Returning to roads, I suspect NPS style operation could use the parkway, while it is a hindrance for a local park...

[seicer]

NPS would never have allowed a 55 MPH freeway to be built through the center of the park. As others have noted, the "parkway" had been severed by the 1970s, proving that the freeway did not meet its original or revised objectives. Nothing is permanent. For all of the boulevards and freeways and parkways that cut through Niagara Falls (NY), none have really aided locals. Partly because of its over-industrialization and forever-ruined super-polluted lands, the city has been declining economically and demographically for decades. And it has infrastructure that doesn't match reality or expectations.

If the goal is to revitalize the core of the city, expand greenspace, and offer full mobility (for pedestrians and cyclists), then modifying or removing the "parkway" should part of that goal. Subtracting the segment that was removed through the center of the park decades ago, the more recent projects have had negligible effects on overall traffic patterns. There is no more congestion through the city than before, and I-190 isn't any worse off.

I do agree, though, that Niagara Falls should have long ago been a national park. It would have had many more resources at its disposal, and I suspect that the entirety of the gorge would have been preserved. Now it's segmented off into multiple entities and reserves that have some cohesion but no unified branding or funding source. (BTW - the gorges are amazing to hike through)

[Rothman]

The idea that the NPS swaggers around with money billowing from its pockets goes against the reality that it is actually cash-strapped, does not have the funds to keep up with its huge maintenance backlog, increasingly relies upon unpaid volunteers -- including for law enforcement,  and has to deal with a Congress that keeps throwing additional sites at it, but without adequate funding (up to something like 423 sites now).

NY's done a good job partially reversing the original damage done by opportunists at Niagara.  Yes, the elevator for Maid of the Mist is an eyesore and I wonder if the site would be improved if the operation was shut down (of course, the outrage would be deafening).  I don't see the advantage of handing it over to the NPS.

[kalvado]

NPS would never have allowed a 55 MPH freeway to be built through the center of the park. As others have noted, the "parkway" had been severed by the 1970s, proving that the freeway did not meet its original or revised objectives. Nothing is permanent. For all of the boulevards and freeways and parkways that cut through Niagara Falls (NY), none have really aided locals. Partly because of its over-industrialization and forever-ruined super-polluted lands, the city has been declining economically and demographically for decades. And it has infrastructure that doesn't match reality or expectations.

If the goal is to revitalize the core of the city, expand greenspace, and offer full mobility (for pedestrians and cyclists), then modifying or removing the "parkway" should part of that goal. Subtracting the segment that was removed through the center of the park decades ago, the more recent projects have had negligible effects on overall traffic patterns. There is no more congestion through the city than before, and I-190 isn't any worse off.

I do agree, though, that Niagara Falls should have long ago been a national park. It would have had many more resources at its disposal, and I suspect that the entirety of the gorge would have been preserved. Now it's segmented off into multiple entities and reserves that have some cohesion but no unified branding or funding source. (BTW - the gorges are amazing to hike through)

Well, 55 is not really an objective, especially if the road is 6 miles long and would be clogged with tourist traffic. And AZ64 is 45 MPH within the park: https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0034017,-111.9190434,3a,75y,50.3h,68.65t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFpIL_EC6asBaumfUkmoCbA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

[kalvado]

The idea that the NPS swaggers around with money billowing from its pockets goes against the reality that it is actually cash-strapped, does not have the funds to keep up with its huge maintenance backlog, increasingly relies upon unpaid volunteers -- including for law enforcement,  and has to deal with a Congress that keeps throwing additional sites at it, but without adequate funding (up to something like 423 sites now).

NY's done a good job partially reversing the original damage done by opportunists at Niagara.  Yes, the elevator for Maid of the Mist is an eyesore and I wonder if the site would be improved if the operation was shut down (of course, the outrage would be deafening).  I don't see the advantage of handing it over to the NPS.

Advantage of handing over to NPS would be similar to handing over busy road from the Village of Middle of Nowhere to NYSDOT. While later is also cash strapped, just fixing the mess with signage, turning lanes etc. can be a big deal.

[vdeane]

Honestly, given all the schenanigans in Washington, I'm glad that our sites in NY are state parks and not national parks.  The national parks, monuments, etc. didn't fare that well through the last government shutdown.

Honestly, the removal of the additional section isn't going to hurt much.  It wasn't traveled much, and Whirlpool Street is right next to the former parkway and will work fine.  Heck, I'm not convinced it needs to exist south of I-190.  Just extend Whirlpool Street over the section to NY 104 at Devil's Hole and feed the northern piece of the Parkway into the I-190 interchange.

NY State Office of Parks, Recreation and Historic Preservation manages mostly "lakefront, grill, and hike" local parks, Niagara may be the only national and world class location they operats. Adirondak and Catskills are under DEC jurisdiction.

Letchworth, Watkins Glen...

[seicer]

- From its southern terminus, the parkway carries 20571 VPD close to I-190
- North of downtown, the parkway carries 3021 VPD
- North of the tracks, 4084 VPD
- North of I-190, 4943 VPD
- By Youngstown, 4808 VPD
- The massively overbuilt Fort Niagara interchange carries... a whopping 852 VPD
- And at its northern terminus, a whopping... 1043 VPD

[seicer]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/shadyjay/51195554817/in/album-72157719337442409/

New York (and other states), take note on the best way to show what lane ends. It can get confusing to learn what lane closes when certain states use ambiguous terms on their signs, such as "LANE ENDS 500 FEET" but that the sign is centered in between lanes.

[kalvado]

NY State Office of Parks, Recreation and Historic Preservation manages mostly "lakefront, grill, and hike" local parks, Niagara may be the only national and world class location they operats. Adirondak and Catskills are under DEC jurisdiction.

Letchworth, Watkins Glen...

That's exactly the problem - dealing with 10M visitors location similar to sub-1M places.
on to be roadgeeky... there is a difference between I-87 bridge over Mohawk and NY-67 bridge over Hudson. One over the Hudson should be more important!

[Rothman]

NY State Office of Parks, Recreation and Historic Preservation manages mostly "lakefront, grill, and hike" local parks, Niagara may be the only national and world class location they operats. Adirondak and Catskills are under DEC jurisdiction.

Letchworth, Watkins Glen...

That's exactly the problem - dealing with 10M visitors location similar to sub-1M places.
on to be roadgeeky... there is a difference between I-87 bridge over Mohawk and NY-67 bridge over Hudson. One over the Hudson should be more important!

I guess I am not seeing the issue with the current level of management, outside of some less-than-ideal crowd management.

[seicer]

Both of those parks have also been recipients of substantial reinvestment. For instance, the entire front entrance to Watkins Glen was reconfigured. The atrocious parking lot in front of the main trailhead has been replaced with much-needed greenspace and welcome center, with parking relocated alongside the main road in much larger lots. I can't find the specifics on my compressed schedule today, but it was something in the tune of $1 billion has been reinvested into the state park system in the past few years. Much of it is to address deferred maintenance.

[Rothman]

Actually, come to think of it, I hate what they did to Thacher, where they built a visitor center right on the cliff in view from the most popular overlook.  Ruined the view.

[cl94]

NY State Parks management is generally fine.

Letchworth, Watkins Glen...

Neither of those has topped 1 million in the past 20 years. The only Upstate parks that have seen those numbers are Niagara, Saratoga, Green Lakes, and Thacher. Downstate parks hit those numbers routinely, most of which are beaches or under the jurisdiction of PIPC.

[Rothman]

Wait, wait, I've got the answer:

Privatization!

Oh wait, they already showed us what that looked like...

[vdeane]

NY State Parks management is generally fine.

Letchworth, Watkins Glen...

Neither of those has topped 1 million in the past 20 years. The only Upstate parks that have seen those numbers are Niagara, Saratoga, Green Lakes, and Thacher. Downstate parks hit those numbers routinely, most of which are beaches or under the jurisdiction of PIPC.

They're still world class and fairly famous attractions, though.  Letchworth in particular is know as the Grand Canyon of the East.

If we're focusing on just visitor numbers, the third most visited state park location, after Jones Beach and Niagara Falls, is the Walkway over the Hudson.  In fact, one of the people who works there has a story about a couple of people from the UK who went there on holiday (it was between that and skiing in Africa) and then asked "so what else is there to do in Poughkeepsie?".

[Roadgeek Adam]

Niagara Falls downtown is: the Seneca Niagara Casino, the falls and ___________________________.

The Price is Right has at least twice offered a trip to Niagara Falls, New York in Season 49 due to COVID limits (no trips off the North American continent due to COVID). I've giggled more than a couple times, how are they going to spend 6 nights there, especially with the border closed? You can do Niagara Falls in a day. Like, there's so little to offer. They aren't going to spend 6 nights at the Casino I presume? (the trips were to stay at The Butler House Bed & Breakfast on Park Place).

Niagara Falls on the NY side, with the border closed doesn't provide enough to justify a lot of things, let alone a parkway that had been overbuilt and would never see the right kind of traffic unless it was connected to the Lake Ontario State Parkway. At least then you'd have a shunpiking route people would use, even if I don't think many would do that. Instead you have two parkways that don't connect, and one is coming out. The AADT numbers are worse than NY 17 in Hale Eddy, and you know I am very opposed to NYSDOT doing anything about that.

Letchworth and Watkins Glen are different completely because they are nowheresville and the biggest thing Watkins Glen has is Watkins Glen International, which brings much bigger audiences than the park will ever bring.

Niagara Falls has a lot of work to do to restore itself to anywhere near a strong city, and it's going to take a lot of things, besides tearing up two limited access roads. Not every road has to stay.

[Rothman]

Hm.  I wonder about the racetrack being a bigger draw than the state park.  You're talking about an arena that has a limited number of events versus a constant draw on the state park during the same season of the year.

Also, people have honeymooned in Niagara Falls since time eternal.  I agree that 6 days is a lot for people like us, but you'd be surprised by how many people go on vacation and spend half the time in the hotel in the name of relaxing.

[MASTERNC]

Niagara Falls downtown is: the Seneca Niagara Casino, the falls and ___________________________.

The Price is Right has at least twice offered a trip to Niagara Falls, New York in Season 49 due to COVID limits (no trips off the North American continent due to COVID). I've giggled more than a couple times, how are they going to spend 6 nights there, especially with the border closed? You can do Niagara Falls in a day. Like, there's so little to offer. They aren't going to spend 6 nights at the Casino I presume? (the trips were to stay at The Butler House Bed & Breakfast on Park Place).

Niagara Falls on the NY side, with the border closed doesn't provide enough to justify a lot of things, let alone a parkway that had been overbuilt and would never see the right kind of traffic unless it was connected to the Lake Ontario State Parkway. At least then you'd have a shunpiking route people would use, even if I don't think many would do that. Instead you have two parkways that don't connect, and one is coming out. The AADT numbers are worse than NY 17 in Hale Eddy, and you know I am very opposed to NYSDOT doing anything about that.

Letchworth and Watkins Glen are different completely because they are nowheresville and the biggest thing Watkins Glen has is Watkins Glen International, which brings much bigger audiences than the park will ever bring.

Niagara Falls has a lot of work to do to restore itself to anywhere near a strong city, and it's going to take a lot of things, besides tearing up two limited access roads. Not every road has to stay.

Having family in WNY, I can agree with you about the American Falls.  Buffalo has a few more things to do (as do the surrounding areas) but I hope those trips include a rental car so the winner can see them easily.

[Roadgeek Adam]

Yes it comes with rental car from Buffalo Niagara. Again, I live up here. But the point is.....both cities are basically 1 day affairs.

[ixnay]

I just got done watching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fuNmR5e19o , a driver's eye view from Midtown Manhattan to the marina in Greenport, LI.

Coming into the North Prong, the road was signed NY Truck 25/Suffolk 48.  Where NYS roads are signed that way, who pays for the maintenance?  NYSDOT, the county, or are the expenses split?

ixnay

[NoGoodNamesAvailable]

Has anyone noticed that NYSDOT has started putting pavement markings in recessed grooves when repaving high-speed roads? I noticed this on expressways a little while ago, and apparently they are doing it on conventional roads as well.

On a recently repaved section of route 9W you can see the centerline is recessed down into pavement, rumble strips are also present. I drove through while it was raining and a bunch of water was pooled in the center groove with no way to drain out. I wonder if this will compromise the life of the pavement.

[seicer]

Keeps the road markers from being chipped off by plows. Having the slightly recessed markers doesn't affect drivability; water doesn't pool in such excessive amounts that hydroplaning is an issue.

[kernals12]

- From its southern terminus, the parkway carries 20571 VPD close to I-190
- North of downtown, the parkway carries 3021 VPD
- North of the tracks, 4084 VPD
- North of I-190, 4943 VPD
- By Youngstown, 4808 VPD
- The massively overbuilt Fort Niagara interchange carries... a whopping 852 VPD
- And at its northern terminus, a whopping... 1043 VPD

Muh induced demand

[seicer]

In many cases, the "old" road has more traffic