Why Is MD Governor Hogan NOT Expanding I-95?

Started by bluecountry, March 22, 2018, 03:26:33 PM

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froggie

^ I can think of several reasons why they aren't:

- First, it's not a full reconstruction.  It's a combination of viaduct & deck repair plus replacing joints and the outer barriers.
- Reconstruction/rehab does not require a full environmental impact statement.  A widening would.
- There are a large number of wetlands and wet lowlands south of downtown and near the Christiana River...right up to the edge of the fill that comprises the ground portions of I-95.  Widening 95 would require filling in a large chunk of these lowlands, so you'd run into hydrology and environmental impacts.
- Between the NEC tracks, the ballfield, and other development, ROW is pretty tight in the vicinity of the viaduct.
- To handle logical termini for additional lanes plus retain shoulders, the SB I-495 bridge over NB I-95 would also have to be replaced.


Plutonic Panda

They need to if the freeway is experience congestion so bad they're claiming major preparations need to be made in order for a rehabilitation project that is 2 years away. They are claiming city wide gridlock on certain freeways because of this. This is why US is becoming a joke when it comes to infrastructure. Quit kicking the can down the road.

This is also said to be several hundred million dollar project so they should just make a billion dollar one and do it right. They can find the money somehow if it means that much to voters not to sit in traffic. Otherwise more rail lines should be included as well.

froggie

My own experience with that area is it's not as bad as you're making it out to be.  Primarily rush hour trying to get in and out of downtown Wilmington.  Through traffic has for years been encouraged to take 495 around the city...and (bridge shifting notwithstanding) 495 usually is not a problem.

Plutonic Panda

Ah, well I've never been so I'll take your word for it. The article made it sound like it was really bad. It also said it was a reconstruction, that is not the case?

froggie

Reconstruction of the bridge deck, to a degree.  But not a full reconstruction of the bridge.

Tonytone

Maybe promoting the use of that new Bike Trail/Bridge, They want everyone to ditch cars and ride bikes into Wilmington. That will for Sure drop the amount of cars on I-95 during rush hour.
Promoting Cities since 1998!

seicer

Except that's not what they are advocating. Totally different use cases.

Tonytone

Quote from: froggie on October 05, 2018, 05:24:13 PM
^ I can think of several reasons why they aren't:

- First, it's not a full reconstruction.  It's a combination of viaduct & deck repair plus replacing joints and the outer barriers.
- Reconstruction/rehab does not require a full environmental impact statement.  A widening would.
- There are a large number of wetlands and wet lowlands south of downtown and near the Christiana River...right up to the edge of the fill that comprises the ground portions of I-95.  Widening 95 would require filling in a large chunk of these lowlands, so you'd run into hydrology and environmental impacts.
- Between the NEC tracks, the ballfield, and other development, ROW is pretty tight in the vicinity of the viaduct.
- To handle logical termini for additional lanes plus retain shoulders, the SB I-495 bridge over NB I-95 would also have to be replaced.

I understand the amount of impact, but how do cities like Philly and NY build Highway tunnels with roads above that would make you not think there is a tunnel with a highway running under it because of the amount of houses, trees, grass etc thats around. if you cannot build outward you build up! Did america forget about all the great architecture it has built? Tunnels, buildings, Bridge-Tunnels! Are we saying forget building great things that will change the area for better so Ny and old cities will retain the reason for tourists to go spend money and see infrastructure that the U.S Government will never make again?
Promoting Cities since 1998!

Tonytone

Promoting Cities since 1998!

Plutonic Panda

Quote from: Tonytone on October 09, 2018, 03:23:20 PM
Quote from: froggie on October 05, 2018, 05:24:13 PM
^ I can think of several reasons why they aren't:

- First, it's not a full reconstruction.  It's a combination of viaduct & deck repair plus replacing joints and the outer barriers.
- Reconstruction/rehab does not require a full environmental impact statement.  A widening would.
- There are a large number of wetlands and wet lowlands south of downtown and near the Christiana River...right up to the edge of the fill that comprises the ground portions of I-95.  Widening 95 would require filling in a large chunk of these lowlands, so you'd run into hydrology and environmental impacts.
- Between the NEC tracks, the ballfield, and other development, ROW is pretty tight in the vicinity of the viaduct.
- To handle logical termini for additional lanes plus retain shoulders, the SB I-495 bridge over NB I-95 would also have to be replaced.

I understand the amount of impact, but how do cities like Philly and NY build Highway tunnels with roads above that would make you not think there is a tunnel with a highway running under it because of the amount of houses, trees, grass etc thats around. if you cannot build outward you build up! Did america forget about all the great architecture it has built? Tunnels, buildings, Bridge-Tunnels! Are we saying forget building great things that will change the area for better so Ny and old cities will retain the reason for tourists to go spend money and see infrastructure that the U.S Government will never make again?
+100. Great post!

jeffandnicole

Quote from: Tonytone on October 09, 2018, 03:23:20 PM
Quote from: froggie on October 05, 2018, 05:24:13 PM
^ I can think of several reasons why they aren't:

- First, it's not a full reconstruction.  It's a combination of viaduct & deck repair plus replacing joints and the outer barriers.
- Reconstruction/rehab does not require a full environmental impact statement.  A widening would.
- There are a large number of wetlands and wet lowlands south of downtown and near the Christiana River...right up to the edge of the fill that comprises the ground portions of I-95.  Widening 95 would require filling in a large chunk of these lowlands, so you'd run into hydrology and environmental impacts.
- Between the NEC tracks, the ballfield, and other development, ROW is pretty tight in the vicinity of the viaduct.
- To handle logical termini for additional lanes plus retain shoulders, the SB I-495 bridge over NB I-95 would also have to be replaced.

I understand the amount of impact, but how do cities like Philly and NY build Highway tunnels with roads above that would make you not think there is a tunnel with a highway running under it because of the amount of houses, trees, grass etc thats around. if you cannot build outward you build up! Did america forget about all the great architecture it has built? Tunnels, buildings, Bridge-Tunnels! Are we saying forget building great things that will change the area for better so Ny and old cities will retain the reason for tourists to go spend money and see infrastructure that the U.S Government will never make again?

Philly built highway tunnels?  Where?

Please don't include the extended decks near Penns Landing as an example.  It's literally a park above it.  That's all.  And that took years to evolve.

Something like that north of Baltimore have nothing to do with why 95 hasn't been expanded above it.  It's nowhere close to a city-like area where they are begging for space.  The issues froggie outlined won't be resolved with a cut-and-cover tunnel.

Tonytone

Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 09, 2018, 03:45:04 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on October 09, 2018, 03:23:20 PM
Quote from: froggie on October 05, 2018, 05:24:13 PM
^ I can think of several reasons why they aren't:

- First, it's not a full reconstruction.  It's a combination of viaduct & deck repair plus replacing joints and the outer barriers.
- Reconstruction/rehab does not require a full environmental impact statement.  A widening would.
- There are a large number of wetlands and wet lowlands south of downtown and near the Christiana River...right up to the edge of the fill that comprises the ground portions of I-95.  Widening 95 would require filling in a large chunk of these lowlands, so you'd run into hydrology and environmental impacts.
- Between the NEC tracks, the ballfield, and other development, ROW is pretty tight in the vicinity of the viaduct.
- To handle logical termini for additional lanes plus retain shoulders, the SB I-495 bridge over NB I-95 would also have to be replaced.

I understand the amount of impact, but how do cities like Philly and NY build Highway tunnels with roads above that would make you not think there is a tunnel with a highway running under it because of the amount of houses, trees, grass etc thats around. if you cannot build outward you build up! Did america forget about all the great architecture it has built? Tunnels, buildings, Bridge-Tunnels! Are we saying forget building great things that will change the area for better so Ny and old cities will retain the reason for tourists to go spend money and see infrastructure that the U.S Government will never make again?

Philly built highway tunnels?  Where?

Please don't include the extended decks near Penns Landing as an example.  It's literally a park above it.  That's all.  And that took years to evolve.

Something like that north of Baltimore have nothing to do with why 95 hasn't been expanded above it.  It's nowhere close to a city-like area where they are begging for space.  The issues froggie outlined won't be resolved with a cut-and-cover tunnel.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/39.9569331,-75.1545068/US-30,+Philadelphia,+PA+19103/@39.9589939,-75.166371,2272m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m8!4m7!1m0!1m5!1m1!1s0x89c6c6351533008d:0x766f341377ec4e62!2m2!1d-75.176456!2d39.9595752

Last time I checked 676 cuts right through the city and the roads above it doesn't even look like a highway is running right underneath. and I've been there in person and anyone who has, understands why I would say this.
Promoting Cities since 1998!

froggie

^ That's not a tunnel.  Not even close.  And it was also a very expensive undertaking even by 1990 financial standards.

Tonytone

Quote from: froggie on October 09, 2018, 11:16:27 PM
^ That's not a tunnel.  Not even close.  And it was also a very expensive undertaking even by 1990 financial standards.
Its damn near close to one, close the top up and bang a tunnel. I think we know that the state dots just dont do big projects involving architecture anymore.
Promoting Cities since 1998!

froggie

The state DOT's don't have that type of funding anymore.  Back in the timeframe you're yearning for, we spent a much higher percentage of our GDP on transportation than we do now.

odditude

Quote from: Tonytone on October 09, 2018, 11:58:42 PM
Quote from: froggie on October 09, 2018, 11:16:27 PM
^ That's not a tunnel.  Not even close.  And it was also a very expensive undertaking even by 1990 financial standards.
Its damn near close to one, close the top up and bang a tunnel. I think we know that the state dots just dont do big projects involving architecture anymore.
no, it's not. it takes up every bit as much space as it would if it were elevated; it's just less visible.

even if you were to cover it and build ventilation, you wouldn't be able to put any significant structures over it unless they were fully supported on both ends - and nobody would be building something that size in Center City without a sublevel or two.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: Tonytone on October 09, 2018, 03:49:22 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 09, 2018, 03:45:04 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on October 09, 2018, 03:23:20 PM
Quote from: froggie on October 05, 2018, 05:24:13 PM
^ I can think of several reasons why they aren't:

- First, it's not a full reconstruction.  It's a combination of viaduct & deck repair plus replacing joints and the outer barriers.
- Reconstruction/rehab does not require a full environmental impact statement.  A widening would.
- There are a large number of wetlands and wet lowlands south of downtown and near the Christiana River...right up to the edge of the fill that comprises the ground portions of I-95.  Widening 95 would require filling in a large chunk of these lowlands, so you'd run into hydrology and environmental impacts.
- Between the NEC tracks, the ballfield, and other development, ROW is pretty tight in the vicinity of the viaduct.
- To handle logical termini for additional lanes plus retain shoulders, the SB I-495 bridge over NB I-95 would also have to be replaced.

I understand the amount of impact, but how do cities like Philly and NY build Highway tunnels with roads above that would make you not think there is a tunnel with a highway running under it because of the amount of houses, trees, grass etc thats around. if you cannot build outward you build up! Did america forget about all the great architecture it has built? Tunnels, buildings, Bridge-Tunnels! Are we saying forget building great things that will change the area for better so Ny and old cities will retain the reason for tourists to go spend money and see infrastructure that the U.S Government will never make again?

Philly built highway tunnels?  Where?

Please don't include the extended decks near Penns Landing as an example.  It's literally a park above it.  That's all.  And that took years to evolve.

Something like that north of Baltimore have nothing to do with why 95 hasn't been expanded above it.  It's nowhere close to a city-like area where they are begging for space.  The issues froggie outlined won't be resolved with a cut-and-cover tunnel.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/39.9569331,-75.1545068/US-30,+Philadelphia,+PA+19103/@39.9589939,-75.166371,2272m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m8!4m7!1m0!1m5!1m1!1s0x89c6c6351533008d:0x766f341377ec4e62!2m2!1d-75.176456!2d39.9595752

Last time I checked 676 cuts right through the city and the roads above it doesn't even look like a highway is running right underneath. and I've been there in person and anyone who has, understands why I would say this.

The closest you get to a tunnel-like structure is this 650 foot section of overpass https://goo.gl/maps/AB3HgjtAGz82 , the majority of which handles the Ben Franklin Parkway crossing at an angle.  While I will grant you in this area you can be on top and not realize there's a highway underneath, that's hardly the definition of tunneling a highway under a city.  The Vine Street Expressway goes in a straight line thru Philly from about 10th to 22nd Streets, and this is the only area that is somewhat covered (you can probably argue Pennypacker Park is as well, although that only takes up about 1/3rd of the block between 18th and 19th).  On every other street, if you're walking over the highway on the sidewalk, you clearly can look thru the fence and see a highway. 

Tonytone

Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 10, 2018, 08:01:34 AM
Quote from: Tonytone on October 09, 2018, 03:49:22 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 09, 2018, 03:45:04 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on October 09, 2018, 03:23:20 PM
Quote from: froggie on October 05, 2018, 05:24:13 PM
^ I can think of several reasons why they aren't:

- First, it's not a full reconstruction.  It's a combination of viaduct & deck repair plus replacing joints and the outer barriers.
- Reconstruction/rehab does not require a full environmental impact statement.  A widening would.
- There are a large number of wetlands and wet lowlands south of downtown and near the Christiana River...right up to the edge of the fill that comprises the ground portions of I-95.  Widening 95 would require filling in a large chunk of these lowlands, so you'd run into hydrology and environmental impacts.
- Between the NEC tracks, the ballfield, and other development, ROW is pretty tight in the vicinity of the viaduct.
- To handle logical termini for additional lanes plus retain shoulders, the SB I-495 bridge over NB I-95 would also have to be replaced.

I understand the amount of impact, but how do cities like Philly and NY build Highway tunnels with roads above that would make you not think there is a tunnel with a highway running under it because of the amount of houses, trees, grass etc thats around. if you cannot build outward you build up! Did america forget about all the great architecture it has built? Tunnels, buildings, Bridge-Tunnels! Are we saying forget building great things that will change the area for better so Ny and old cities will retain the reason for tourists to go spend money and see infrastructure that the U.S Government will never make again?

Philly built highway tunnels?  Where?

Please don't include the extended decks near Penns Landing as an example.  It's literally a park above it.  That's all.  And that took years to evolve.

Something like that north of Baltimore have nothing to do with why 95 hasn't been expanded above it.  It's nowhere close to a city-like area where they are begging for space.  The issues froggie outlined won't be resolved with a cut-and-cover tunnel.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/39.9569331,-75.1545068/US-30,+Philadelphia,+PA+19103/@39.9589939,-75.166371,2272m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m8!4m7!1m0!1m5!1m1!1s0x89c6c6351533008d:0x766f341377ec4e62!2m2!1d-75.176456!2d39.9595752

Last time I checked 676 cuts right through the city and the roads above it doesn't even look like a highway is running right underneath. and I've been there in person and anyone who has, understands why I would say this.

The closest you get to a tunnel-like structure is this 650 foot section of overpass https://goo.gl/maps/AB3HgjtAGz82 , the majority of which handles the Ben Franklin Parkway crossing at an angle.  While I will grant you in this area you can be on top and not realize there's a highway underneath, that's hardly the definition of tunneling a highway under a city.  The Vine Street Expressway goes in a straight line thru Philly from about 10th to 22nd Streets, and this is the only area that is somewhat covered (you can probably argue Pennypacker Park is as well, although that only takes up about 1/3rd of the block between 18th and 19th).  On every other street, if you're walking over the highway on the sidewalk, you clearly can look thru the fence and see a highway.

Ok that is true, But this is planning at it's best, you wont find something like this anywhere else. Maybe after all the construction ceases on minor roads, they will think about the major roads that really need it, I wonder if roads would be better maintained if they were on wall street and stocks could be bought, A private business just like Prisons and now we have excellent roads that are better then New Jersey's  :-D
Promoting Cities since 1998!

jeffandnicole

Quote from: Tonytone on October 10, 2018, 12:28:33 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 10, 2018, 08:01:34 AM
Quote from: Tonytone on October 09, 2018, 03:49:22 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 09, 2018, 03:45:04 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on October 09, 2018, 03:23:20 PM
Quote from: froggie on October 05, 2018, 05:24:13 PM
^ I can think of several reasons why they aren't:

- First, it's not a full reconstruction.  It's a combination of viaduct & deck repair plus replacing joints and the outer barriers.
- Reconstruction/rehab does not require a full environmental impact statement.  A widening would.
- There are a large number of wetlands and wet lowlands south of downtown and near the Christiana River...right up to the edge of the fill that comprises the ground portions of I-95.  Widening 95 would require filling in a large chunk of these lowlands, so you'd run into hydrology and environmental impacts.
- Between the NEC tracks, the ballfield, and other development, ROW is pretty tight in the vicinity of the viaduct.
- To handle logical termini for additional lanes plus retain shoulders, the SB I-495 bridge over NB I-95 would also have to be replaced.

I understand the amount of impact, but how do cities like Philly and NY build Highway tunnels with roads above that would make you not think there is a tunnel with a highway running under it because of the amount of houses, trees, grass etc thats around. if you cannot build outward you build up! Did america forget about all the great architecture it has built? Tunnels, buildings, Bridge-Tunnels! Are we saying forget building great things that will change the area for better so Ny and old cities will retain the reason for tourists to go spend money and see infrastructure that the U.S Government will never make again?

Philly built highway tunnels?  Where?

Please don't include the extended decks near Penns Landing as an example.  It's literally a park above it.  That's all.  And that took years to evolve.

Something like that north of Baltimore have nothing to do with why 95 hasn't been expanded above it.  It's nowhere close to a city-like area where they are begging for space.  The issues froggie outlined won't be resolved with a cut-and-cover tunnel.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/39.9569331,-75.1545068/US-30,+Philadelphia,+PA+19103/@39.9589939,-75.166371,2272m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m8!4m7!1m0!1m5!1m1!1s0x89c6c6351533008d:0x766f341377ec4e62!2m2!1d-75.176456!2d39.9595752

Last time I checked 676 cuts right through the city and the roads above it doesn't even look like a highway is running right underneath. and I've been there in person and anyone who has, understands why I would say this.

The closest you get to a tunnel-like structure is this 650 foot section of overpass https://goo.gl/maps/AB3HgjtAGz82 , the majority of which handles the Ben Franklin Parkway crossing at an angle.  While I will grant you in this area you can be on top and not realize there's a highway underneath, that's hardly the definition of tunneling a highway under a city.  The Vine Street Expressway goes in a straight line thru Philly from about 10th to 22nd Streets, and this is the only area that is somewhat covered (you can probably argue Pennypacker Park is as well, although that only takes up about 1/3rd of the block between 18th and 19th).  On every other street, if you're walking over the highway on the sidewalk, you clearly can look thru the fence and see a highway.

Ok that is true, But this is planning at it's best, you wont find something like this anywhere else. Maybe after all the construction ceases on minor roads, they will think about the major roads that really need it, I wonder if roads would be better maintained if they were on wall street and stocks could be bought, A private business just like Prisons and now we have excellent roads that are better then New Jersey's  :-D

As long as a company can figure out a way to make money, they're more than welcome to have the road!

PHLBOS

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 05, 2018, 11:33:47 AM
Though I still have yet to venture to the north east, reading this article about the chronic congestion this stretch of freeway suffers leads me to believe this is a major lost opportunity that they aren't significantly expanding this section as they plan to reconstruct it.

https://amp.delawareonline.com/amp/1382703002
Okay, I asked a similar question in a recent I-95/Wilmington, DE thread & I'll ask it here: what does that project in Delaware have to do this I-95/Maryland thread topic? 
Last time I checked, Gov. Hogan is only governor of Maryland and not Delaware.

Observation after reading the subsequent replies: this thread has veered way off-topic.
GPS does NOT equal GOD

Beltway

Quote from: PHLBOS on October 11, 2018, 12:06:06 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 05, 2018, 11:33:47 AM
Though I still have yet to venture to the north east, reading this article about the chronic congestion this stretch of freeway suffers leads me to believe this is a major lost opportunity that they aren't significantly expanding this section as they plan to reconstruct it.
https://amp.delawareonline.com/amp/1382703002
Okay, I asked a similar question in a recent I-95/Wilmington, DE thread & I'll ask it here: what does that project in Delaware have to do this I-95/Maryland thread topic? 
Last time I checked, Gov. Hogan is only governor of Maryland and not Delaware.
Observation after reading the subsequent replies: this thread has veered way off-topic.

Thread drift.  It is like rust or erosion.   :-|
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

Alps

Quote from: Beltway on October 11, 2018, 03:35:23 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on October 11, 2018, 12:06:06 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on October 05, 2018, 11:33:47 AM
Though I still have yet to venture to the north east, reading this article about the chronic congestion this stretch of freeway suffers leads me to believe this is a major lost opportunity that they aren't significantly expanding this section as they plan to reconstruct it.
https://amp.delawareonline.com/amp/1382703002
Okay, I asked a similar question in a recent I-95/Wilmington, DE thread & I'll ask it here: what does that project in Delaware have to do this I-95/Maryland thread topic? 
Last time I checked, Gov. Hogan is only governor of Maryland and not Delaware.
Observation after reading the subsequent replies: this thread has veered way off-topic.

Thread drift.  It is like rust or erosion.   :-|
And sometimes too pervasive to cure. Hopefully after this people can get back to discussing I-95 in Maryland.

bluecountry

I really don't understand why traffic is so bad from the I-495 beltway until MD-100, exit 43.

Traffic on the beltway is understandable because it is in a very densely populated area with many exits, merges, curves, and short shoulders.
However, I-95 between I-495 and MD 100 has a HUGE right of way, a large median, it is very straight, and has only a few spaced out interchanges.
Thus traffic is not bad there due to the road design, and it is mostly trees.

I gotta think traffic is so bad there because of the funneling effect of I-495/ICC/Rt 32/Rt 100/I-195 emptying out.
That, or does NSA/Ft Meade REALLy add that much traffic?
All I know is, try driving NB on I-95 at rush hour, even at 3 PM, and it is very rough.
Ceases to amaze me that I-95 flows BETTER north of the Baltimore Beltway some 5 miles from the center of Baltimore than it does in the middle of Howard County.  It defies logic.

Beltway

Quote from: bluecountry on November 03, 2018, 03:58:31 PM
I really don't understand why traffic is so bad from the I-495 beltway until MD-100, exit 43.

Someone dig up the volume?  Probably over 120,000 AADT.  Plus heavy B-W area commuting in peak hours.  That would be the explanation.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

Roadsguy

Quote from: Beltway on November 03, 2018, 04:24:01 PM
Quote from: bluecountry on November 03, 2018, 03:58:31 PM
I really don't understand why traffic is so bad from the I-495 beltway until MD-100, exit 43.

Someone dig up the volume?  Probably over 120,000 AADT.  Plus heavy B-W area commuting in peak hours.  That would be the explanation.

It hovers around 200k between 495 and 895, not changing too much at 100. The Capital Beltway has similar volumes between MD 4 and I-95.
Mileage-based exit numbering implies the existence of mileage-cringe exit numbering.



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