More US 31 upgrades between Indy and South Bend

[roadman65]

Just follow US 101 between San Fran and Eureka and you can have a non interstate freeway with stoplights.

[I-55]

Just follow US 101 between San Fran and Eureka and you can have a non interstate freeway with stoplights.

Or much closer to IN, US-33 east of Columbus.

[I-39]

More direct than existing interstates, and provides redundancy to a very busy corridor. It definitely serves a purpose, at least once fully complete.

Either way, regardless of your opinion, it's being built and mostly already has been complete. Sorry to break it to you 

Direct to what?

I know it's virtually complete in Indiana, but hardly any of it has been completed outside of Indiana and Kentucky. And it will be decades before it is completed.

It's more useful than I-39, for the record.

Not sure how this is relevant, but nevertheless, that is laughable to say the least

[sprjus4]

Direct to what?

Memphis to Indianapolis.

Indiana and Kentucky is virtually complete, and Tennessee is about half way. It's definitely making progress. The remainder south of I-155 is certainly needed, not only for Memphis to Indianapolis, but also Memphis to Louisville and other connections via the Parkway system.

Texas I-69 is certainly a viable corridor, with the possible exception of I-69W. But the mainline north of Victoria, and I-69E / I-69C are all useful. And they're not redundant.

Not sure how this is relevant, but nevertheless, that is laughable to say the least

Based off of your username. I-39 is just as "useless"  as I-69. And unlike I-69, doesn't even serve long haul freight traffic in as important of a manner that a corridor like I-69 would.

[sparker]

I'd say the last few previous posts should be directed at the I-69/Indiana thread in Ohio Valley rather than clog up a thread dealing with another IN corridor decidedly not I-69!  And seeing as how the whole I-69 corridor has threads devoted to its sections in those regional boards through which it travels criticism of the corridor as a whole or in part should go there.  Apples & oranges, you know!  Upgrades of US 31 need to be discussed on their own merits rather than in comparison with other state corridors.  There's no national coalition, loose as it is, backing an Interstate from Indy to Benton Harbor; just a series of statements by IN luminaries plus others by INDOT regarding just what the plans are for US 31 and, lo and behold, they don't always match!  My prediction: for the next 10-15 years US 31 will be a mix of facility types:  freeway from Indy/I-465 to just beyond Kokomo; "experimental" (meaning J-turns, RIRO's, etc.) up to US 24, with the existing expressway remaining north of there to Plymouth with the occasional upgrade to crossing road grade separation/interchanges as funding allows (and local politics demands), and, of course, the existing freeway north from there to US 20.  Miami County is the tricky spot -- a full freeway through there, with the requisite amount of interchanges and local-road truncations, would be both controversial and expensive -- so that section will likely have its proverbial can kicked down the road for decades.  Despite the current plans for J-turn modifications; it wouldn't be at all surprising if the near-term decision for that section is "no build"; leaving it in its current state until funding can be found for a solution that pleases as many parties as possible -- likely a full freeway with a lot of interchanges and crossings (at that point the controversy goes away but the expense remains). 

[ilpt4u]

I-39 has good utility - combined with I-57 and/or I-74 it is the Far Out Chicago Bypass, and the Truck/Freight traffic maps show it

Dream world would have I-39 actually continue due south to meet up with I-57 near Salem, IL (to essentially upgrade the US 51 corridor to Interstate Standard in Illinois fully), but I think those dreams have come and gone. The jog east to Effingham and Champaign alas is part of the Bypass cooridor

On point with US 31 upgrades, tho: I-39US 51 between Bloomington/Normal and Decatur is what those not quite Interstate Standard upgrades look like, including traffic signals around small towns like Clinton, IL

[NWI_Irish96]

Indiana needed a new terrain four lane highway from Bloomington to Evansville, so it might as well have been a freeway.

No they didn't. No offense, but Evansville is not important enough to justify a full fledged freeway/interstate. I suppose a four lane would have been ok, but if South Bend is not worthy of an Interstate connection to Indianapolis, then Evansville isn't either.

It isn't a matter of comparison between South Bend and Evansville. South Bend already had a four lane highway to Indy. Evansville didn't, so it had to be built. If you're already building a road from scratch, it doesn't cost that much more to make it a freeway.

[sparker]

Indiana needed a new terrain four lane highway from Bloomington to Evansville, so it might as well have been a freeway.

No they didn't. No offense, but Evansville is not important enough to justify a full fledged freeway/interstate. I suppose a four lane would have been ok, but if South Bend is not worthy of an Interstate connection to Indianapolis, then Evansville isn't either.

It isn't a matter of comparison between South Bend and Evansville. South Bend already had a four lane highway to Indy. Evansville didn't, so it had to be built. If you're already building a road from scratch, it doesn't cost that much more to make it a freeway.

Besides, the Evansville-based backers had the foresight (and moxie) to go out and cobble up a multiregional corridor in which to embed their section; this brought national attention to the project.  As it turned out, with KY and TN electing to improve existing corridors for their section (assuming it'll get to Memphis but stall past that), IN had the sole completely new-terrain segment SW of Bloomington.  As a nationally publicized new Interstate corridor, there was no choice but to build it to those standards -- but they built the totally new segments first, leaving the existing-route modifications to the end, a process designed to ensure that most of the Indy-Evansville corridor would actually be constructed; connecting it at the ends could come later.  Given the various controversies regarding alignment and environmental concerns, that strategy proved valid. 

But comparisons to US 31 are sketchy at best; the latter is all modification/upgrades; existing access patterns and the treatment of adjacent housing and facilities are concerns for pretty much the whole corridor.  Addressing those simply adds to the cost of whatever facility configuration is planned, so mile for mile more individual problems accumulate -- unlike I-69, which could tackle the new-terrain issues on a wholesale basis.  Those who look at an existing facility, even a divided (often twinned) highway like US 31, and see an easy row to hoe when it comes to upgrades are often mistaken; those modifications more often than not entail dealing with individual aggrieved parties which in sum are more problematic than terrain and fully new construction.

[silverback1065]

Interesting fact I learned about i-69. The bridge over the patoka river is the longest bridge in Indiana! It's that long due to environmental concerns and bad soils.

[triplemultiplex]

Interesting fact I learned about i-69. The bridge over the patoka river is the longest bridge in Indiana! It's that long due to environmental concerns and bad soils.

And due to Kentucky claiming the far bank of the Ohio River as its border back in the day.

[hbelkins]

I've long said that a full freeway from South Bend to Indy is not necessary. Now that the Kokomo bypass is finished, existing US 31 isn't exactly a signal-plagued corridor. Traffic moves well on the four-lane that has at-grades and the occasional signals aren't problematic.

I'm not sure how many of you were around when the MTR flame wars over I-69 were common. There was a certain segment of the population who advocated upgrading existing US 41 between Evansville and Terre Haute and routing I-69 west of Indy as a concurrency with I-70. Their arguments in favor were that the route would only be a handful of miles longer and wouldn't require a lot of new construction and disruptions such as what was done around Bloomington. Some of those discussions got pretty heated.

And I always got flamed when I said there was no need to turn US 31 into an interstate, that it was fine as it was (kind of like when I make that argument about US 220 between Martinsville and Roanoke  .)

[bmeiser]

I agree that traffic moves pretty well on 31 as is, but there are some dangerous spots that definitely need some attention in the near future. As somebody that frequents US 31 between Indy and Rochester, the most dangerous segment, IMO is between the 2 freeway segments in Hamilton County and Kokomo. I'm happy to see actual plans for Hamilton County and that INDOT is buying up property in Tipton County. If only the latter could come to some sort of agreement with INDOT and somehow get those at-grade intersections removed, I think the whole corridor from Indy to South Bend will be good for the foreseeable future.

As for north of Kokomo to the northern freeway segment, J-turns, RIRO, whatever you want to call them are a complete waste of time and money and just sound terrifying to me. I'd rather slow down briefly for a semi crossing the road at an inopportune time than slam on my brakes as one merges into the fast lane to get over to some BS U-turn lane, only to cause the same danger on the other side of the road. Right now that whole section is pretty tame and easy going. No need to make it worse. I think the plans that INDOT currently has in place for this segment (https://www.in.gov/indot/3973.htm), aside from the aforementioned BS U-turn lanes, seem adequate for me for now.

[monty]

Construction for the bridge over NS RR tracks in Tipton County begins July 26.

[US 41]

Indiana needed a new terrain four lane highway from Bloomington to Evansville, so it might as well have been a freeway.

No they didn't. No offense, but Evansville is not important enough to justify a full fledged freeway/interstate. I suppose a four lane would have been ok, but if South Bend is not worthy of an Interstate connection to Indianapolis, then Evansville isn't either.

It isn't a matter of comparison between South Bend and Evansville. South Bend already had a four lane highway to Indy. Evansville didn't, so it had to be built. If you're already building a road from scratch, it doesn't cost that much more to make it a freeway.

Evansville did have a 4 lane highway to Indy. US 41 to I-70. 641 was proposed for a long time and was finally complete when it was no longer as useful as it could have been. Still if you live in Vincennes, 41/641/70 is the fastest way to Indianapolis, and it was before they closed 37 in Martinsville.

[silverback1065]

I've long said that a full freeway from South Bend to Indy is not necessary. Now that the Kokomo bypass is finished, existing US 31 isn't exactly a signal-plagued corridor. Traffic moves well on the four-lane that has at-grades and the occasional signals aren't problematic.

I'm not sure how many of you were around when the MTR flame wars over I-69 were common. There was a certain segment of the population who advocated upgrading existing US 41 between Evansville and Terre Haute and routing I-69 west of Indy as a concurrency with I-70. Their arguments in favor were that the route would only be a handful of miles longer and wouldn't require a lot of new construction and disruptions such as what was done around Bloomington. Some of those discussions got pretty heated.

And I always got flamed when I said there was no need to turn US 31 into an interstate, that it was fine as it was (kind of like when I make that argument about US 220 between Martinsville and Roanoke  .)

I think that's reasonable, i would remove all signals and i think that would work.

[silverback1065]

Indiana needed a new terrain four lane highway from Bloomington to Evansville, so it might as well have been a freeway.

No they didn't. No offense, but Evansville is not important enough to justify a full fledged freeway/interstate. I suppose a four lane would have been ok, but if South Bend is not worthy of an Interstate connection to Indianapolis, then Evansville isn't either.

It isn't a matter of comparison between South Bend and Evansville. South Bend already had a four lane highway to Indy. Evansville didn't, so it had to be built. If you're already building a road from scratch, it doesn't cost that much more to make it a freeway.

Evansville did have a 4 lane highway to Indy. US 41 to I-70. 641 was proposed for a long time and was finally complete when it was no longer as useful as it could have been. Still if you live in Vincennes, 41/641/70 is the fastest way to Indianapolis, and it was before they closed 37 in Martinsville.

I think 641 is supposed to eventually tie into SR 63 NW of Terre Haute. if this ever happens INDOT will almost certainly remove all state highways inside terre haute and through them all on the 641 bypass.

[SEWIGuy]

Indiana needed a new terrain four lane highway from Bloomington to Evansville, so it might as well have been a freeway.

No they didn't. No offense, but Evansville is not important enough to justify a full fledged freeway/interstate. I suppose a four lane would have been ok, but if South Bend is not worthy of an Interstate connection to Indianapolis, then Evansville isn't either.

It isn't a matter of comparison between South Bend and Evansville. South Bend already had a four lane highway to Indy. Evansville didn't, so it had to be built. If you're already building a road from scratch, it doesn't cost that much more to make it a freeway.

Evansville did have a 4 lane highway to Indy. US 41 to I-70. 641 was proposed for a long time and was finally complete when it was no longer as useful as it could have been. Still if you live in Vincennes, 41/641/70 is the fastest way to Indianapolis, and it was before they closed 37 in Martinsville.

I think 641 is supposed to eventually tie into SR 63 NW of Terre Haute. if this ever happens INDOT will almost certainly remove all state highways inside terre haute and through them all on the 641 bypass.

They would have to swing that road so far east, and then cut back west over the river to the point where I am not sure it would actually be quicker than simply going through town.

[NWI_Irish96]

Indiana needed a new terrain four lane highway from Bloomington to Evansville, so it might as well have been a freeway.

No they didn't. No offense, but Evansville is not important enough to justify a full fledged freeway/interstate. I suppose a four lane would have been ok, but if South Bend is not worthy of an Interstate connection to Indianapolis, then Evansville isn't either.

It isn't a matter of comparison between South Bend and Evansville. South Bend already had a four lane highway to Indy. Evansville didn't, so it had to be built. If you're already building a road from scratch, it doesn't cost that much more to make it a freeway.

Evansville did have a 4 lane highway to Indy. US 41 to I-70. 641 was proposed for a long time and was finally complete when it was no longer as useful as it could have been. Still if you live in Vincennes, 41/641/70 is the fastest way to Indianapolis, and it was before they closed 37 in Martinsville.

I think 641 is supposed to eventually tie into SR 63 NW of Terre Haute. if this ever happens INDOT will almost certainly remove all state highways inside terre haute and through them all on the 641 bypass.

Is that realistic though? If you tie it in south of the 63/41 interchange, you have a cemetery, high school and hospital to work around. If you tie it in north of there, you're building a new bridge over the Wabash River.

[silverback1065]

Indiana needed a new terrain four lane highway from Bloomington to Evansville, so it might as well have been a freeway.

No they didn't. No offense, but Evansville is not important enough to justify a full fledged freeway/interstate. I suppose a four lane would have been ok, but if South Bend is not worthy of an Interstate connection to Indianapolis, then Evansville isn't either.

It isn't a matter of comparison between South Bend and Evansville. South Bend already had a four lane highway to Indy. Evansville didn't, so it had to be built. If you're already building a road from scratch, it doesn't cost that much more to make it a freeway.

Evansville did have a 4 lane highway to Indy. US 41 to I-70. 641 was proposed for a long time and was finally complete when it was no longer as useful as it could have been. Still if you live in Vincennes, 41/641/70 is the fastest way to Indianapolis, and it was before they closed 37 in Martinsville.

I think 641 is supposed to eventually tie into SR 63 NW of Terre Haute. if this ever happens INDOT will almost certainly remove all state highways inside terre haute and through them all on the 641 bypass.

Is that realistic though? If you tie it in south of the 63/41 interchange, you have a cemetery, high school and hospital to work around. If you tie it in north of there, you're building a new bridge over the Wabash River.

Those are all the reasons why it may never happen  . i just remember seeing maps of the corridor and they all involved the road ending at 63.

[US 41]

I live in Terre Haute and we are not a priority at all in this state. A NE bypass will never happen. There's too much buildup on the north side of town, Rose Hulman is in the way, etc. If they ever build anything it would probably be a bypass around West Terre Haute connecting SR 63 to I-70.

Frankly I think INDOT will eventually just connect US 150 to SR 63 north of the city and call it a day. Then they can hand over 150 through West TH to the county. I don't see us getting any sort of bypass and I question if it's even needed anymore. The area by the mall was the worst part and now our mall is almost dead.

[Life in Paradise]

I live in Terre Haute and we are not a priority at all in this state. A NE bypass will never happen. There's too much buildup on the north side of town, Rose Hulman is in the way, etc. If they ever build anything it would probably be a bypass around West Terre Haute connecting SR 63 to I-70.

Frankly I think INDOT will eventually just connect US 150 to SR 63 north of the city and call it a day. Then they can hand over 150 through West TH to the county. I don't see us getting any sort of bypass and I question if it's even needed anymore. The area by the mall was the worst part and now our mall is almost dead.

I can agree with that assessment.  My standing joke was when we traveled from the Evansville area to Indianapolis while my kids were in band, show choir, etc in the early 2010s that INDOT had one person working all of the equipment on the IN-641 project, and he just jumped from one piece to another.  INDOT didn't want to put more people on the job, and that is why it took forever (5-10 years construction?) to complete.  I don't see a completion of the bypass of Terre Haute to IN-63, although the Wabash River bridge wouldn't be as big of a problem as some of the development.  It's not like that river is the size of the Ohio.

[SEWIGuy]

I live in Terre Haute and we are not a priority at all in this state. A NE bypass will never happen. There's too much buildup on the north side of town, Rose Hulman is in the way, etc. If they ever build anything it would probably be a bypass around West Terre Haute connecting SR 63 to I-70.

Frankly I think INDOT will eventually just connect US 150 to SR 63 north of the city and call it a day. Then they can hand over 150 through West TH to the county. I don't see us getting any sort of bypass and I question if it's even needed anymore. The area by the mall was the worst part and now our mall is almost dead.

I used to live in Terre Haute, and there is a perfectly good reason why it isn't a priority.  It is a smallish city in a part of the state declining in population.  Bypassing the city north and south would be helpful to those who currently drive through it, but how many people actually do that?  I am glad that IN-641 was done, and getting that traffic off US-41 helped, but it always seemed to me that most of that traffic down by the mall was local in nature.

[Finrod]

And due to Kentucky claiming the far bank of the Ohio River as its border back in the day.

Technically, Virginia is to blame for that.  Kentucky (and West Virginia) used to be part of Virginia before becoming a separate state.

[hbelkins]

And due to Kentucky claiming the far bank of the Ohio River as its border back in the day.

Technically, Virginia is to blame for that.  Kentucky (and West Virginia) used to be part of Virginia before becoming a separate state.

Which is also why West Virginia gets to claim the Big Sandy River and its Tug Fork that constitutes the state line between Kentucky and West Virginia. WV was part of VA when KY got statehood, so VA kept the Big Sandy.

[SSR_317]

And due to Kentucky claiming the far bank of the Ohio River as its border back in the day.

Technically, Virginia is to blame for that.  Kentucky (and West Virginia) used to be part of Virginia before becoming a separate state.

Thanks for the history lesson, I never knew that the north bank claim pre-dated Kentucky's statehood (technically, Commonwealthhood)!