Austin, TX

[thisdj78]

All I know is, once they start tearing down those upper decks, it is going to be a fiasco. I wonder how they will manage that and keep the same number of traffic lanes available.

[Echostatic]

There's not a chance in hell they'll be able to keep 4x4 or even 3x3 intact while building this. Especially downtown, where they'll be going from an elevated freeway to a trenched one with no ROW change.

[sprjus4]

They're going to have to heavily promote SH-130 as an alternative route for long-haul traffic during this time... thankfully a good portion was recently widened to 6 lanes.

Perhaps reducing the toll some and TxDOT paying for revenue loss will be apart of the project? Probably not... it makes too much sense.

[Echostatic]

I think the new 183 South expansion can absorb some of the traffic. The main (tolled) lanes are very rarely congested, and seem quite overbuilt as most traffic prefers the free frontage road. It's directly connected to I-35 at the north end, but the southern connection is a lot less convenient.

[Plutonic Panda]

I in my opinion, I think one of the best things that TxDOT could do is pay off the bonds and remove the tolls on that road. It's amazing that they aren't even considering it.

[sprjus4]

The idea sounds good in theory, but I think keeping it tolled is one of the main reasons it's not just becoming another choked down I-35. Traffic volumes are growing significantly, and without tolls, it would just increase further. The southern portion, the part posted at 85 mph, has room to grow on the other hand.

[Plutonic Panda]

The idea sounds good in theory, but I think keeping it tolled is one of the main reasons it's not just becoming another choked down I-35. Traffic volumes are growing significantly, and without tolls, it would just increase further. The southern portion, the part posted at 85 mph, has room to grow on the other hand.

It looks like there is a ton of room for expansion if congestion becomes a serious problem a toll lane system could be constructed. Or just a general expansion of free to use lanes. Austin's traffic problem is going to take a lot of money to tame.

[thisdj78]

I in my opinion, I think one of the best things that TxDOT could do is pay off the bonds and remove the tolls on that road. It's amazing that they aren't even considering it.

Agreed and I guess it's been brought up enough that TxDOT had to put out a specific flyer on why they won't:

https://my35capex.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/M35_CapEx-C_0015-13-388_FINAL-SH-130-one-pager_121621.pdf

[thisdj78]

There's not a chance in hell they'll be able to keep 4x4 or even 3x3 intact while building this. Especially downtown, where they'll be going from an elevated freeway to a trenched one with no ROW change.

Right, I don't see it. The only way they could retain some capacity is to make the frontage roads temporarily free flowing between Airport Blvd and MLK by blocking all non-critical entrances/cross streets. They can detour all cross traffic onto Dean Keeton St since it goes completely under both the main lanes and frontages.

[kernals12]

I in my opinion, I think one of the best things that TxDOT could do is pay off the bonds and remove the tolls on that road. It's amazing that they aren't even considering it.

Agreed and I guess it's been brought up enough that TxDOT had to put out a specific flyer on why they won't:

https://my35capex.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/M35_CapEx-C_0015-13-388_FINAL-SH-130-one-pager_121621.pdf

What about SH183?

[thisdj78]

I in my opinion, I think one of the best things that TxDOT could do is pay off the bonds and remove the tolls on that road. It's amazing that they aren't even considering it.

Agreed and I guess it's been brought up enough that TxDOT had to put out a specific flyer on why they won't:

https://my35capex.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/M35_CapEx-C_0015-13-388_FINAL-SH-130-one-pager_121621.pdf

What about SH183?

I could see them waiving tolls on Toll 183 in 24-48 hour increments when there are temporary lane or bridge closures due to tear downs. But I doubt they would long term.

[ski-man]

I in my opinion, I think one of the best things that TxDOT could do is pay off the bonds and remove the tolls on that road. It's amazing that they aren't even considering it.

Agreed and I guess it's been brought up enough that TxDOT had to put out a specific flyer on why they won't:

https://my35capex.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/M35_CapEx-C_0015-13-388_FINAL-SH-130-one-pager_121621.pdf

What about SH183?

It is US183 or Toll183. SH183 is in DFW area.

[Plutonic Panda]

I in my opinion, I think one of the best things that TxDOT could do is pay off the bonds and remove the tolls on that road. It's amazing that they aren't even considering it.

Agreed and I guess it's been brought up enough that TxDOT had to put out a specific flyer on why they won't:

https://my35capex.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/M35_CapEx-C_0015-13-388_FINAL-SH-130-one-pager_121621.pdf

In all fairness that Flyer just seems like talking points for TxDOT to make excuses because they don't want to spend the money. I don't entirely blame them as this wouldn't be a cheap. How much would it cost them to make this road free? Probably something the state would need to do.

[thisdj78]

I in my opinion, I think one of the best things that TxDOT could do is pay off the bonds and remove the tolls on that road. It's amazing that they aren't even considering it.

Agreed and I guess it's been brought up enough that TxDOT had to put out a specific flyer on why they won't:

https://my35capex.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/M35_CapEx-C_0015-13-388_FINAL-SH-130-one-pager_121621.pdf

In all fairness that Flyer just seems like talking points for TxDOT to make excuses because they don't want to spend the money. I don't entirely blame them as this wouldn't be a cheap. How much would it cost them to make this road free? Probably something the state would need to do.

$3B has been the number thrown around for years but I'm sure it's much more than that now:

https://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local_news/article/Legislator-proposes-removing-tolls-from-Texas-130-4371569.php

But the state sitting on a $32.7B surplus though, so it's not as if budgets are tight.

[Plutonic Panda]

Only problem is without dwelling too much into politics the Texas state legislature being what it is probably isn't in any hurry to do much for Austin. But yeah this seems like absolute no brainer to me.

[thisdj78]

Only problem is without dwelling too much into politics the Texas state legislature being what it is probably isn't in any hurry to do much for Austin. But yeah this seems like absolute no brainer to me.

True, but looking at the bigger picture, it impacts the movement of goods and commerce thru Austin region more than anything. Making SH130 free helps those passing through the area more than local residents in Austin proper.

[Plutonic Panda]

Only problem is without dwelling too much into politics the Texas state legislature being what it is probably isn't in any hurry to do much for Austin. But yeah this seems like absolute no brainer to me.

True, but looking at the bigger picture, it impacts the movement of goods and commerce thru Austin region more than anything. Making SH130 free helps those passing through the area more than local residents in Austin proper.

Oh absolutely. I just wouldn't put it pass the folks at the Capitol to not consider things like that and purposely disregard doing anything meaningful for Austin. I can also see TxDOT not being overly enthusiastic about spending billions to essentially buy this road when they have such a massive need for other projects.

At any rate that is one thing I to write to Texas legislators and TxDOT about even though I don't live there. I still write to leaders and agencies in places I don't live but frequently pass through or visit.

[Bobby5280]

Just like I've said before with the turnpikes in Oklahoma. If the toll gates are removed the state's DOT gets its highway maintenance burden increased. In Oklahoma's case that would result in a huge hike on fuel taxes. Our gasoline prices are currently some of the cheapest in the nation. That situation would go bye bye if 600 miles of toll roads were made "free."

In Texas the conversion of tolled express lanes into free lanes could possibly be a little easier since most of them don't run very significant distances. However, some of those express lanes projects, like the one for LBJ Freeway in Dallas, cost a big fortune of money to build.

[thisdj78]

Just like I've said before with the turnpikes in Oklahoma. If the toll gates are removed the state's DOT gets its highway maintenance burden increased. In Oklahoma's case that would result in a huge hike on fuel taxes. Our gasoline prices are currently some of the cheapest in the nation. That situation would go bye bye if 600 miles of toll roads were made "free."

In Texas the conversion of tolled express lanes into free lanes could possibly be a little easier since most of them don't run very significant distances. However, some of those express lanes projects, like the one for LBJ Freeway in Dallas, cost a big fortune of money to build.

Me personally, I only see a need for SH130 to have tolls removed. Not even permanently, just during the several years of I-35 construction in Austin.

[Plutonic Panda]

Theoretically, if that road were to only be free during the duration of this construction project, how would that work? Doesn't a private company still own the rights to collect tolls on it? I vaguely remember some thing about a lawsuit or a bail out but I can't remember the details. Would TxDOT have to pay a certain fee and what would they base that on?

[thisdj78]

Theoretically, if that road were to only be free during the duration of this construction project, how would that work? Doesn't a private company still own the rights to collect tolls on it? I vaguely remember some thing about a lawsuit or a bail out but I can't remember the details. Would TxDOT have to pay a certain fee and what would they base that on?

The state could make an arrangement to reimburse toll revenue to the private company for the arranged period. I think SH130 (the portion between Georgetown and 45SE) generates $150M per year. That's $1.2B over 8 years (which is how long the I-35 project will take).

[Plutonic Panda]

Theoretically, if that road were to only be free during the duration of this construction project, how would that work? Doesn't a private company still own the rights to collect tolls on it? I vaguely remember some thing about a lawsuit or a bail out but I can't remember the details. Would TxDOT have to pay a certain fee and what would they base that on?

The state could make an arrangement to reimburse toll revenue to the private company for the arranged period. I think SH130 (the portion between Georgetown and 45SE) generates $150M per year. That's $1.2B over 8 years (which is how long the I-35 project will take).

It seems like at that point it'd just be more worthwhile to keep it free by paying it all off.

[TXtoNJ]

My guess is that the construction schedule will require a total closure for ~6 months or so, and they'll waive the tolls on 183 while that's going on.

[thisdj78]

My guess is that the construction schedule will require a total closure for ~6 months or so, and they'll waive the tolls on 183 while that's going on.

6 months concurrently or separate closures totaling 6 months altogether?

[Echostatic]

An interesting breakdown of the 2022 revenue of Austin's toll roads.



From this KXAN article, part of their recent "TxTag Troubles" series: https://www.kxan.com/investigations/381m-generated-from-austin-area-tolls-last-year-which-roads-made-the-most/