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US 33, VA 33, and US 250 endpoints in Richmond, VA

Started by WillWeaverRVA, March 25, 2009, 11:58:24 AM

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Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on November 21, 2016, 09:44:46 AM
Quote from: dvferyance on November 20, 2016, 08:43:29 PM
The easy solution would be just make VA 33 part of US 33.

That would be the easy solution, but VDOT never does things the easy way...
and even that's an understatement lol just like the whole US/VA 360 thing
Newark born, Richmond bred


Takumi

Digging this thread up with a photo from the Richmond Times-Dispatch from January 1952. This is West Broad and Lombardy, but doesn't say which direction. Note the US 33 shield included.
Quote from: Rothman on July 15, 2021, 07:52:59 AM
Olive Garden must be stopped.  I must stop them.

Don't @ me. Seriously.

WillWeaverRVA

Quote from: Takumi on April 29, 2023, 11:50:26 AM
Digging this thread up with a photo from the Richmond Times-Dispatch from January 1952. This is West Broad and Lombardy, but doesn't say which direction. Note the US 33 shield included.


Looks like eastbound.
Will Weaver
WillWeaverRVA Photography | Twitter

"But how will the oxen know where to drown if we renumber the Oregon Trail?" - NE2

The Ghostbuster

I think VA 33 should have been US 33 from the get-go. I know VA 33 is an east-west route, but so is US 33 (more or less, with it being diagonal in a northwest-southeast trajectory). True, there is a VA 211 off the end of US 211, and a VA 360 along US 360's old alignment. VA 311 doesn't count since it was designated after US 311 became part of US 220.

Mapmikey

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on April 29, 2023, 12:06:09 PM
I think VA 33 should have been US 33 from the get-go. I know VA 33 is an east-west route, but so is US 33 (more or less, with it being diagonal in a northwest-southeast trajectory). True, there is a VA 211 off the end of US 211, and a VA 360 along US 360's old alignment. VA 311 doesn't count since it was designated after US 311 became part of US 220.

VA 311 absolutely existed while US 311 ended in Roanoke. Otherwise VA 311 would've been numbered something else.

Virginia has also had as extensions of US routes:
VA 13
VA 17
VA 121
VA 158
VA 258
VA 301
VA 501
VA 522

Plus there was a US/VA 29 setup similar to the current 360 setup, between Culpeper and Warrenton.

roadman65

I noticed that on Broad Street EB at US 1/301 there is a TO EAST US 33 shield in the median directing traffic to north US 1/301. However no follow up at Leigh Street, but a EAST US 33 shield on the EB Leigh Street signal pole on the SE corner with Belvedere.

Plus on Staples Mill Road at Broad Street there is no EB US 33 shield informing traffic to turn left onto EB US 250 there. With that intersection on the City Line, you would think VDOT  would sign that correctly.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

Mapmikey

Quote from: roadman65 on June 07, 2023, 09:25:15 AM
I noticed that on Broad Street EB at US 1/301 there is a TO EAST US 33 shield in the median directing traffic to north US 1/301. However no follow up at Leigh Street, but a EAST US 33 shield on the EB Leigh Street signal pole on the SE corner with Belvedere.

Plus on Staples Mill Road at Broad Street there is no EB US 33 shield informing traffic to turn left onto EB US 250 there. With that intersection on the City Line, you would think VDOT  would sign that correctly.

Both shields you cite in the Broad/Leigh situation are in error as it is VA 33 by then.  There was a shield on 1-301 N at Leigh that was removed 2007-11: https://goo.gl/maps/FEdETeSYGFgDRzT38

33 EB at 250 apparently hasn't had a 33 shield in the GMSV.  I'm not certain VDOT would be involved since it is Henrico Co.

WillWeaverRVA

Some new signs are being put together at the I-95/VA 150/VA 895 interchange as part of some bridge work VDOT is doing in the city, and notably there are new Broad St signs that finally, finally omit US 33 shields from them (Broad St is correctly labeled as just US 250).
Will Weaver
WillWeaverRVA Photography | Twitter

"But how will the oxen know where to drown if we renumber the Oregon Trail?" - NE2

Takumi

Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on June 07, 2023, 02:06:08 PM
Some new signs are being put together at the I-95/VA 150/VA 895 interchange as part of some bridge work VDOT is doing in the city, and notably there are new Broad St signs that finally, finally omit US 33 shields from them (Broad St is correctly labeled as just US 250).

Unfortunately the new Washington/Wythe signs down in Petersburg are still incorrect, still listing only US 301 instead of, you know, routes that are actually on those streets.
Quote from: Rothman on July 15, 2021, 07:52:59 AM
Olive Garden must be stopped.  I must stop them.

Don't @ me. Seriously.

Evan_Th

So why is VA 33 separate from US 33 in the first place?

Mapmikey

#60
Quote from: Evan_Th on June 09, 2023, 12:48:43 AM
So why is VA 33 separate from US 33 in the first place?

Virginia had a number of these setups where the US route replaced the state route of the same number. As best I can tell Virginia never moved toward doing this with US/VA 33. But they did this with US 13, US 17, US 301, US 258, US 340 and US 522

There were others that never did get extended like US 211 and US 501.

74/171FAN

Quote from: Mapmikey on June 09, 2023, 08:13:35 AM
Quote from: Evan_Th on June 09, 2023, 12:48:43 AM
So why is VA 33 separate from US 33 in the first place?

Virginia had a number of these setups where the US route replaced the state route of the same number. As best I can tell Virginia never moved toward doing this with US/VA 33. But they did this with US 13, US 17, US 301, US 258, and US 522

There were others that never did get extended like US 211 and US 501.

Looking at your VA 501 entry, I guess VA was looking to get US 501 extended into WV along current WV 39 to at least Marlinton or Summersville.  I am unsure I could have justified a complete replacement of WV 39 out to US 60 southeast of Charleston at Gauley Bridge.
I am now a PennDOT employee.  My opinions/views do not necessarily reflect the opinions/views of PennDOT.

Mapmikey

Quote from: 74/171FAN on June 09, 2023, 08:22:55 AM
Quote from: Mapmikey on June 09, 2023, 08:13:35 AM
Quote from: Evan_Th on June 09, 2023, 12:48:43 AM
So why is VA 33 separate from US 33 in the first place?

Virginia had a number of these setups where the US route replaced the state route of the same number. As best I can tell Virginia never moved toward doing this with US/VA 33. But they did this with US 13, US 17, US 301, US 258, and US 522

There were others that never did get extended like US 211 and US 501.

Looking at your VA 501 entry, I guess VA was looking to get US 501 extended into WV along current WV 39 to at least Marlinton or Summersville.  I am unsure I could have justified a complete replacement of WV 39 out to US 60 southeast of Charleston at Gauley Bridge.

I never saw anything to indicate efforts to extend US 501 past Lexington.

In fact the draft 1933 renumbering had US 501 downgraded to VA 9. Though that didn't happen, VA 501 was renumbered as VA 39 in 1940. All of which suggests no real plan to extend US 501 was on anyone's mind.

bluecountry

On a related note, where does US-17 end in Winchester, and if US-17 is just co-signed with US-50 from Paris west to Winchester where it terminates, why have it start/end as a co-route vs. having it begin/end at Paris?

WillWeaverRVA

Quote from: bluecountry on June 11, 2023, 10:27:11 AM
On a related note, where does US-17 end in Winchester, and if US-17 is just co-signed with US-50 from Paris west to Winchester where it terminates, why have it start/end as a co-route vs. having it begin/end at Paris?

It ends here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/dUtTByMoivmqhUC88?g_st=ic
Will Weaver
WillWeaverRVA Photography | Twitter

"But how will the oxen know where to drown if we renumber the Oregon Trail?" - NE2

Dirt Roads

Quote from: bluecountry on June 11, 2023, 10:27:11 AM
On a related note, where does US-17 end in Winchester, and if US-17 is just co-signed with US-50 from Paris west to Winchester where it terminates, why have it start/end as a co-route vs. having it begin/end at Paris?

Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on June 11, 2023, 12:40:24 PM
It ends here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/dUtTByMoivmqhUC88?g_st=ic

Don't know if it is official, but it looks like that block of South Cameron Street is only northbound US-17.  If you turn around, US-17 southbound is posted as beginning in the next block south of here.

74/171FAN

#66
Quote from: Dirt Roads on June 11, 2023, 07:53:04 PM
Quote from: bluecountry on June 11, 2023, 10:27:11 AM
On a related note, where does US-17 end in Winchester, and if US-17 is just co-signed with US-50 from Paris west to Winchester where it terminates, why have it start/end as a co-route vs. having it begin/end at Paris?

Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on June 11, 2023, 12:40:24 PM
It ends here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/dUtTByMoivmqhUC88?g_st=ic

Don't know if it is official, but it looks like that block of South Cameron Street is only northbound US-17.  If you turn around, US-17 southbound is posted as beginning in the next block south of here.

US 11 and US 522 continue straight through here.  (SB, NB)
I am now a PennDOT employee.  My opinions/views do not necessarily reflect the opinions/views of PennDOT.

Mapmikey

Quote from: Dirt Roads on June 11, 2023, 07:53:04 PM
Quote from: bluecountry on June 11, 2023, 10:27:11 AM
On a related note, where does US-17 end in Winchester, and if US-17 is just co-signed with US-50 from Paris west to Winchester where it terminates, why have it start/end as a co-route vs. having it begin/end at Paris?

Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on June 11, 2023, 12:40:24 PM
It ends here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/dUtTByMoivmqhUC88?g_st=ic

Don't know if it is official, but it looks like that block of South Cameron Street is only northbound US-17.  If you turn around, US-17 southbound is posted as beginning in the next block south of here.

This was the stated reason in the AASHO application in Aug 1964:
This is a request to extend U. S. Route 17 from its present termi­nus in Fredericksburg northwesterly to Winchester, which for many years has carried a continuous state route designation. The exten­sion of U, S. Route 17 will provide a section of the state with a U. S. designated route that has one of its termini in the State of Florida. The subject route that is presently designated U, S. in the State of Virginia and the section of the requested extension between Fredericksburg and Warrenton is a part of our Arterial System of Highways which carries a high construction priority. The request­ed extension of U. S. Route 17 carries a high volume of traffic of which over 25% is out of state and approximately 1% is heavy tractor-trailer and buses. The route provides a more direct north-south routing, and complements an integrated system with existing U. S. Numbered Highways.

-------------------------------------------

The one block difference just reflects there wasn't a reasonable location to place the 4-shield assembly SB leaving Cork St.

The bigger question is whether its signed extension to Cork St (since 2009) is official or not, since there is no AASHO request and also no CTB documentation of it.  May just be an Independent City doing what it likes as several others have done.

The (approved Dec 1964) extension was shown as 17.1 miles from Paris to its northern terminus.  It is 18.2 miles to Cork St, meaning the extension was originally to just US 11 (Millwood at Cameron) as was posted up through at least 2009.

bluecountry

Quote from: Mapmikey on June 11, 2023, 08:32:44 PM
Quote from: Dirt Roads on June 11, 2023, 07:53:04 PM
Quote from: bluecountry on June 11, 2023, 10:27:11 AM
On a related note, where does US-17 end in Winchester, and if US-17 is just co-signed with US-50 from Paris west to Winchester where it terminates, why have it start/end as a co-route vs. having it begin/end at Paris?

Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on June 11, 2023, 12:40:24 PM
It ends here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/dUtTByMoivmqhUC88?g_st=ic

Don't know if it is official, but it looks like that block of South Cameron Street is only northbound US-17.  If you turn around, US-17 southbound is posted as beginning in the next block south of here.

This was the stated reason in the AASHO application in Aug 1964:
This is a request to extend U. S. Route 17 from its present termi­nus in Fredericksburg northwesterly to Winchester, which for many years has carried a continuous state route designation. The exten­sion of U, S. Route 17 will provide a section of the state with a U. S. designated route that has one of its termini in the State of Florida. The subject route that is presently designated U, S. in the State of Virginia and the section of the requested extension between Fredericksburg and Warrenton is a part of our Arterial System of Highways which carries a high construction priority. The request­ed extension of U. S. Route 17 carries a high volume of traffic of which over 25% is out of state and approximately 1% is heavy tractor-trailer and buses. The route provides a more direct north-south routing, and complements an integrated system with existing U. S. Numbered Highways.

-------------------------------------------

The one block difference just reflects there wasn't a reasonable location to place the 4-shield assembly SB leaving Cork St.

The bigger question is whether its signed extension to Cork St (since 2009) is official or not, since there is no AASHO request and also no CTB documentation of it.  May just be an Independent City doing what it likes as several others have done.

The (approved Dec 1964) extension was shown as 17.1 miles from Paris to its northern terminus.  It is 18.2 miles to Cork St, meaning the extension was originally to just US 11 (Millwood at Cameron) as was posted up through at least 2009.
So it makes sense to have 17 extend from 95 to 50, but 50 is a US route, why extend it to Winchester on the same route co-signed?  Just have it end in Paris.

Mapmikey

For decades the point of the US routes was to connect cities (and their centers, at that). Many useless overlays were created this way, despite AASHO rejecting numerous requests like that.

In more modern times states have cleaned these up including Virginia- US 21-52 and US 29-211

That said, US 17 should be truncated to Marshal, since trucks are prohibited between I-66 and US 50, and the speed limit on that segment has been permanently reduced to 45.

hbelkins

Quote from: Mapmikey on June 15, 2023, 09:04:32 PM
That said, US 17 should be truncated to Marshal, since trucks are prohibited between I-66 and US 50, and the speed limit on that segment has been permanently reduced to 45.

And I don't understand why. When I drove that route, I didn't see any problems at all with the road. It's a lot better than a lot of roads that are very busy with trucks, with a 55 mph speed limit.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

74/171FAN

Quote from: hbelkins on June 16, 2023, 11:47:15 PM
Quote from: Mapmikey on June 15, 2023, 09:04:32 PM
That said, US 17 should be truncated to Marshal, since trucks are prohibited between I-66 and US 50, and the speed limit on that segment has been permanently reduced to 45.

And I don't understand why. When I drove that route, I didn't see any problems at all with the road. It's a lot better than a lot of roads that are very busy with trucks, with a 55 mph speed limit.

I believe it is a political thing.  Having stated that, there is a 20 mph railroad crossing about a mile or so north of VA 55 along that section.
I am now a PennDOT employee.  My opinions/views do not necessarily reflect the opinions/views of PennDOT.

froggie

Quote from: hbelkins on June 16, 2023, 11:47:15 PM
Quote from: Mapmikey on June 15, 2023, 09:04:32 PM
That said, US 17 should be truncated to Marshal, since trucks are prohibited between I-66 and US 50, and the speed limit on that segment has been permanently reduced to 45.

And I don't understand why. When I drove that route, I didn't see any problems at all with the road. It's a lot better than a lot of roads that are very busy with trucks, with a 55 mph speed limit.

The residents and politicians of Fauquier County don't want anything outside of Warrenton that impedes their idyllic concept of rural living.  That includes big smelly trucks and "through traffic".  I don't recall if it was lobbying VDOT or actual legislation they were able to push through the General Assembly, but they were successful in banning through trucks on 17 (requiring them to take 66 to 81) and forcing a 45mph speed limit even though the road is easily done at 55.

Yes, there's the nasty at-grade rail crossing at Delaplane, but there's 6 miles of well-designed highway north of that which would easily otherwise be 55mph.

Dirt Roads

Quote from: Mapmikey on June 15, 2023, 09:04:32 PM
That said, US 17 should be truncated to Marshal, since trucks are prohibited between I-66 and US 50, and the speed limit on that segment has been permanently reduced to 45.

Quote from: hbelkins on June 16, 2023, 11:47:15 PM
And I don't understand why. When I drove that route, I didn't see any problems at all with the road. It's a lot better than a lot of roads that are very busy with trucks, with a 55 mph speed limit.

Quote from: froggie on June 17, 2023, 11:30:27 AM
The residents and politicians of Fauquier County don't want anything outside of Warrenton that impedes their idyllic concept of rural living.  That includes big smelly trucks and "through traffic".  I don't recall if it was lobbying VDOT or actual legislation they were able to push through the General Assembly, but they were successful in banning through trucks on 17 (requiring them to take 66 to 81) and forcing a 45mph speed limit even though the road is easily done at 55.

Yes, there's the nasty at-grade rail crossing at Delaplane, but there's 6 miles of well-designed highway north of that which would easily otherwise be 55mph.

If I recall correctly, the US-17 crossing at Delaplane was the location of a deadly accident where a tractor-trailer lost its brakes downhill and crashed into the side of a train.  There were also similar safety issues with numerous truck traffic coming off of the Blue Ridge trying to slow down and make the right turn onto US-17 southbound at Sky Meadows.  My understanding is that after the rollout of the GPS network in the mid-1990s, too many inexperienced truckers were attempting to use US-17 as a shortcut.  [Don't remember the exact dates, but the final GPS satellite was commissioned in January 1994, and truckers quickly adopted the technology about the same time].

bluecountry

Quote from: froggie on June 17, 2023, 11:30:27 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on June 16, 2023, 11:47:15 PM
Quote from: Mapmikey on June 15, 2023, 09:04:32 PM
That said, US 17 should be truncated to Marshal, since trucks are prohibited between I-66 and US 50, and the speed limit on that segment has been permanently reduced to 45.

And I don't understand why. When I drove that route, I didn't see any problems at all with the road. It's a lot better than a lot of roads that are very busy with trucks, with a 55 mph speed limit.

The residents and politicians of Fauquier County don't want anything outside of Warrenton that impedes their idyllic concept of rural living.  That includes big smelly trucks and "through traffic".  I don't recall if it was lobbying VDOT or actual legislation they were able to push through the General Assembly, but they were successful in banning through trucks on 17 (requiring them to take 66 to 81) and forcing a 45mph speed limit even though the road is easily done at 55.

Yes, there's the nasty at-grade rail crossing at Delaplane, but there's 6 miles of well-designed highway north of that which would easily otherwise be 55mph.
Rich people in Virginia Hunt Country that don't want commoners driving through their neighborhood.
That area is super wealthy.



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