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Interstate 11 alignment, though Vegas and points north

Started by swbrotha100, October 16, 2012, 09:51:18 PM

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US 395

Quote from: roadfro on June 01, 2024, 03:44:18 PM
Quote from: cl94 on May 31, 2024, 01:12:40 AM
Quote from: DenverBrian on May 30, 2024, 11:20:33 PMNow if they can just handle their EXTERNAL references, as in, the references known and seen by the public. I predict there will be zombie I-515 signage on this route for at least another year.

Please, there are cases of routes in this state being signed 20+ years after they were truncated or decommissioned. NDOT has made little effort to remove NV 121 shields, and that was downgraded to tertiary in 2021. NV 430, NV 653, and NV 667 have shields on segments that were downloaded 20+ years ago. There are multiple US 395 shields remaining on a segment that was downgraded to SR (now US 395A) in the 80s/90s (depending on where), at least one having been replaced in kind within the past 4 months. Similarly, there are multiple signs in Reno pointing to I-580 that only reference US 395. I would not be shocked if 515 shields survive another 10-20+ years, especially on roads NDOT doesn't maintain, because the larger cities generally don't care.

(personal opinion emphasized)

You don't even really need to predict the zombie 515 shields—the signing plans for this major sign replacement contract have multiple instances of existing 515 shields that are not being replaced on purpose. I thought that it might just be sign replacement work that would be carried out by other projects, but it seems like an awful lot of outdated shields to leave in the field. I gotta think some of those are going to be forgotten about and will be around for a while.


Quote from: US 395 on May 31, 2024, 08:57:52 PM
Quote from: Sub-Urbanite on May 31, 2024, 07:08:07 PM
Quote from: cl94 on May 31, 2024, 05:47:19 PMEven more, I'd bet that people keep calling it "515" for another decade or two. See how old-timers in Northern Nevada still refer to "highway 40".
Has anyone ever called it 515?


My wife and my best friends are from Vegas and as far as they (and other Vegas folk) are concerned, it's the 95. 515/11 and 93 doesn't exist to them.

I grew up in Vegas as well, and still refer to it at 95 in any and all non-roadgeeking contexts. I'd say it took about 10 years for references to I-515 to catch on locally, but even still I think it was used more by non-natives and in advertising & traffic reports—most locals I know call it "the 95".

I've always maintained that US 95 was more commonly referenced because it's the one route number that carries through on that freeway at the Spaghetti Bowl. With I-11 being cosigned with US 95 through the Spaghetti Bowl up to the edge of town, I'm willing to bet that references to I-11 will catch on much more quickly (but also that reference to US 95 will never really go away).
I asked my wife if she thinks that 11 will catch on. She says not a chance. She says Vegas folk are stubborn. Lol.


pderocco

Quote from: US 395 on June 01, 2024, 07:15:37 PMI asked my wife if she thinks that 11 will catch on. She says not a chance. She says Vegas folk are stubborn. Lol.
We'll see. But it's easier to ignore a new road designation on part of a road when another part still only has the old designation. When the whole road ends up with a single new designation, it might catch on.

TheStranger

Quote from: pderocco on June 02, 2024, 05:36:45 AM
Quote from: US 395 on June 01, 2024, 07:15:37 PMI asked my wife if she thinks that 11 will catch on. She says not a chance. She says Vegas folk are stubborn. Lol.
We'll see. But it's easier to ignore a new road designation on part of a road when another part still only has the old designation. When the whole road ends up with a single new designation, it might catch on.

Examples where the new designation or co-designation continues to be ignored by locals:

Highway 40 in St. Louis (has been part of I-64 since 1988)
Route 128 near Boston (3/4ths of it has been part of I-95 since the mid-1970s after the through-town sections got canceled, and in the threads on here about that, commenters often mention that the current signage deemphasizes 128 through the concurrency)
Chris Sampang

The Ghostbuster

Google Maps has been updated to show the northern extension of the Interstate 11 designation to NV 157/Kyle Canyon Rd.: https://www.google.com/maps/@36.2013029,-115.1457245,40548m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu.

Alex

I separated the discussion on clinched highways and merged it into the What do you Count/Not Count When Clinching? thread, one of the more "recent" threads covering the subject of clinching. The moved posts start with DenverBrian's:

QuoteI wonder how many on here who have "clinched" I-11 will need to re-clinch? :-D

Also debating merging them with the Classes of "Clinching" thread, which is a year newer. But the premise seems to fall more in line with the What do you Count/Not Count When Clinching? thread.

PColumbus73

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on May 30, 2024, 07:35:59 PMI'd prefer I-21 is focused from Vegas to Phoenix. At this point ADOT seems to have studied pushing I-11 south to Mexico more than they have north from phoenix to the NV state line.

Unless Arizona is planning to replace I-19, I don't see the point in extending I-11 all the way to Mexico. At most, I-11 could take over AZ 85 to I-8.

I think there could be a bump in truck traffic from the southern states, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, maybe Oklahoma specifically going northwest, but until there's a plan to take I-11 across the Cascades / Sierra Nevada, the Las Vegas-Reno section might not be worth it.

FightingIrish



Quote from: PColumbus73 on June 06, 2024, 09:05:44 AMUnless Arizona is planning to replace I-19, I don't see the point in extending I-11 all the way to Mexico. At most, I-11 could take over AZ 85 to I-8.

I think there could be a bump in truck traffic from the southern states, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, maybe Oklahoma specifically going northwest, but until there's a plan to take I-11 across the Cascades / Sierra Nevada, the Las Vegas-Reno section might not be worth it.

That would be the most obvious option. Connect AZ 85 to a new I-11 coming south from Wickenburg, with the newer section of AZ 85 south of I-10 becoming part of I-11. Terminus would be I-8. Obviously, this would mean I-11 does not enter Phoenix directly, but does it really need to? It would work as a bypass/connector for the southwestern metro.

As for building I-11 south to the border and overlapping I-19, what's the point? The existing roads (I-8, I-10, I-19) are adequate.

And maybe I-11 could be extended north to Reno or I-80, though there are the questions of low traffic counts and terrain. Plus, does Nevada really want to encourage population growth in areas without a more stable water supply? As for I-11 extended between I-80 and the Canadian border, that's crazy. Perhaps a connection between I-80 and I-84, but beyond that is overkill.

Max Rockatansky

I just find it amusing that there is such a "build and they will come" mentality really driving what is going on with I-11.  History tells us (specifically with all the I-70 Nevada concepts) that sooner or later reality will settle in and things won't get built.  West of the White Tank Mountains and north of Vegas both seem equally absurd to me. 

mgk920

I agree here, construct a continuous 'no intersection turns' surface route between the NW corner of the as Vegas metro area and I-580 south of Carson City and make any further upgrades as traffic conditions warrant and available funding allows. "FOR [I-11] to (Reno or Las Vegas) FOLLOW [US 95]".

Mike

vdeane

Quote from: PColumbus73 on June 06, 2024, 09:05:44 AMUnless Arizona is planning to replace I-19, I don't see the point in extending I-11 all the way to Mexico.
Honestly, given Arizona's proposals, that seems to be exactly what they are planning.  As for why, who knows?  I can't help but wonder if they see this as a way to overcome the local resistance to renumbering I-19's exits to mile-based.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

PColumbus73

Quote from: FightingIrish on June 06, 2024, 10:50:21 AM
Quote from: PColumbus73 on June 06, 2024, 09:05:44 AMUnless Arizona is planning to replace I-19, I don't see the point in extending I-11 all the way to Mexico. At most, I-11 could take over AZ 85 to I-8.

I think there could be a bump in truck traffic from the southern states, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, maybe Oklahoma specifically going northwest, but until there's a plan to take I-11 across the Cascades / Sierra Nevada, the Las Vegas-Reno section might not be worth it.

That would be the most obvious option. Connect AZ 85 to a new I-11 coming south from Wickenburg, with the newer section of AZ 85 south of I-10 becoming part of I-11. Terminus would be I-8. Obviously, this would mean I-11 does not enter Phoenix directly, but does it really need to? It would work as a bypass/connector for the southwestern metro.

As for building I-11 south to the border and overlapping I-19, what's the point? The existing roads (I-8, I-10, I-19) are adequate.

And maybe I-11 could be extended north to Reno or I-80, though there are the questions of low traffic counts and terrain. Plus, does Nevada really want to encourage population growth in areas without a more stable water supply? As for I-11 extended between I-80 and the Canadian border, that's crazy. Perhaps a connection between I-80 and I-84, but beyond that is overkill.

I-8 & AZ 85 are already advertised as a Phoenix bypass, so bringing I-11 over it would help if the goal is to divert more thru traffic out of Phoenix.

I'm not familiar with that part of the country, but not only the poor water supply, but discouraging development in mountainous areas that are experiencing more wildfires seems like something that would be in Nevada and California's best interest.

Also, depending on the route that's being proposed, it looks like there would be hardly any services between Reno and Bend, OR. They'd have to take it towards Alturas so people don't have to drive over 300 miles without food, gas and lodging.

DenverBrian

Quote from: mgk920 on June 06, 2024, 11:20:14 AMI agree here, construct a continuous 'no intersection turns' surface route between the NW corner of the as Vegas metro area and I-580 south of Carson City and make any further upgrades as traffic conditions warrant and available funding allows. "FOR [I-11] to (Reno or Las Vegas) FOLLOW [US 95]".

Mike
Or maybe redefine what an Interstate highway is. It's been 70 years since the original plan, which never really contemplated ultra-rural Interstates - remember, I-70 originally was going to end at Denver.

Maybe the road is upgraded to four-lane expressway or even "super 2" (already precedent for that in New Hampshire) and it gets I-11 shields that way.

kkt

Quote from: PColumbus73 on June 06, 2024, 09:05:44 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on May 30, 2024, 07:35:59 PMI'd prefer I-21 is focused from Vegas to Phoenix. At this point ADOT seems to have studied pushing I-11 south to Mexico more than they have north from phoenix to the NV state line.

Unless Arizona is planning to replace I-19, I don't see the point in extending I-11 all the way to Mexico. At most, I-11 could take over AZ 85 to I-8.

I think there could be a bump in truck traffic from the southern states, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, maybe Oklahoma specifically going northwest, but until there's a plan to take I-11 across the Cascades / Sierra Nevada, the Las Vegas-Reno section might not be worth it.

You're thinking building I-11 to Salem or Portland or Seattle would cause an increase in truck traffic?  That seems very unlikely.  The roads there now move at the speed limit, or faster.  There must be some uses for that money somewhere that would improve conditions.  (Maybe if Oregon wanted to post interstate speed limits higher than 60 mph, maybe.)


PColumbus73

Quote from: kkt on June 06, 2024, 01:57:11 PM
Quote from: PColumbus73 on June 06, 2024, 09:05:44 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on May 30, 2024, 07:35:59 PMI'd prefer I-21 is focused from Vegas to Phoenix. At this point ADOT seems to have studied pushing I-11 south to Mexico more than they have north from phoenix to the NV state line.

Unless Arizona is planning to replace I-19, I don't see the point in extending I-11 all the way to Mexico. At most, I-11 could take over AZ 85 to I-8.

I think there could be a bump in truck traffic from the southern states, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, maybe Oklahoma specifically going northwest, but until there's a plan to take I-11 across the Cascades / Sierra Nevada, the Las Vegas-Reno section might not be worth it.

You're thinking building I-11 to Salem or Portland or Seattle would cause an increase in truck traffic?  That seems very unlikely.  The roads there now move at the speed limit, or faster.  There must be some uses for that money somewhere that would improve conditions.  (Maybe if Oregon wanted to post interstate speed limits higher than 60 mph, maybe.)



I was referring to the Phoenix-Las Vegas segment may bump truck traffic, maybe not significantly. Just doing quick measurements on Google, west of San Antonio it might be faster using a I-10-11-15-84 to get to either Portland, Seattle or Vancouver. Distance-wise, it's shorter to go up through Fort Worth-Denver-Laramie-Salt Lake to get to 84.

DenverBrian

Quote from: kkt on June 06, 2024, 01:57:11 PM
Quote from: PColumbus73 on June 06, 2024, 09:05:44 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on May 30, 2024, 07:35:59 PMI'd prefer I-21 is focused from Vegas to Phoenix. At this point ADOT seems to have studied pushing I-11 south to Mexico more than they have north from phoenix to the NV state line.

Unless Arizona is planning to replace I-19, I don't see the point in extending I-11 all the way to Mexico. At most, I-11 could take over AZ 85 to I-8.

I think there could be a bump in truck traffic from the southern states, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, maybe Oklahoma specifically going northwest, but until there's a plan to take I-11 across the Cascades / Sierra Nevada, the Las Vegas-Reno section might not be worth it.

You're thinking building I-11 to Salem or Portland or Seattle would cause an increase in truck traffic?  That seems very unlikely.  The roads there now move at the speed limit, or faster.  There must be some uses for that money somewhere that would improve conditions.  (Maybe if Oregon wanted to post interstate speed limits higher than 60 mph, maybe.)Oregon's rural interstate speed limit is 65 and in some cases 70 mph.



FightingIrish

Quote from: vdeane on June 06, 2024, 12:46:23 PM
Quote from: PColumbus73 on June 06, 2024, 09:05:44 AMUnless Arizona is planning to replace I-19, I don't see the point in extending I-11 all the way to Mexico.
Honestly, given Arizona's proposals, that seems to be exactly what they are planning.  As for why, who knows?  I can't help but wonder if they see this as a way to overcome the local resistance to renumbering I-19's exits to mile-based.
Arizona is not going to spend a billion or so dollars just to have a freeway with mile markers. That's just stupid.

I doubt anyone really cares how markers are signed on I-19, just so long as the road is there.

vdeane

Quote from: FightingIrish on June 06, 2024, 07:20:55 PMArizona is not going to spend a billion or so dollars just to have a freeway with mile markers. That's just stupid.

I doubt anyone really cares how markers are signed on I-19, just so long as the road is there.
ADOT did try to replace the metric signage with miles at one point.  The locals were fiercely opposed.  And I doubt replacing I-19 signs with I-11 signs would cost a billion dollars.  If all they wanted to do was the stuff that will, then why have the line continue down I-19?  Why not leave I-19 alone and have I-11 end near there?  That begs the question as to why they would want to replace I-19.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Scott5114

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 06, 2024, 10:58:47 AMI just find it amusing that there is such a "build and they will come" mentality really driving what is going on with I-11.  History tells us (specifically with all the I-70 Nevada concepts) that sooner or later reality will settle in and things won't get built.  West of the White Tank Mountains and north of Vegas both seem equally absurd to me. 

Something that has been overlooked here is that there is a lot of industrial growth in the Reno area, mostly  driven by Tesla establishing facilities there. Could it be possible that Northern Nevada interests are leaning on NDOT to provide a better route south to the I-40 and I-10 corridors toward Texas, and that's why they're studying it?
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: Scott5114 on June 06, 2024, 09:43:10 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 06, 2024, 10:58:47 AMI just find it amusing that there is such a "build and they will come" mentality really driving what is going on with I-11.  History tells us (specifically with all the I-70 Nevada concepts) that sooner or later reality will settle in and things won't get built.  West of the White Tank Mountains and north of Vegas both seem equally absurd to me. 

Something that has been overlooked here is that there is a lot of industrial growth in the Reno area, mostly  driven by Tesla establishing facilities there. Could it be possible that Northern Nevada interests are leaning on NDOT to provide a better route south to the I-40 and I-10 corridors toward Texas, and that's why they're studying it?

Perhaps, all the same the presence of that Tesla plant to me never really had a noticeable effect on US 95 south of Fallon. 

Scott5114

Another Northern Nevada development that could impact the state's transportation needs is the big lithium mine at Thacker Pass, north of Winnemucca, that's being stood up. While the obvious place for that lithium to go to is the Tesla facilities in the Reno area, there are also battery manufacturing facilities in Henderson.

I guess we'll see what NDOT says about feasibility for the Indian Springs segment and especially afterward. The results of those studies will tell us a lot about how seriously they're taking this I-11 to Reno thing and whether they see anything that we don't.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

FightingIrish

Quote from: vdeane on June 06, 2024, 08:55:33 PM
Quote from: FightingIrish on June 06, 2024, 07:20:55 PMArizona is not going to spend a billion or so dollars just to have a freeway with mile markers. That's just stupid.

I doubt anyone really cares how markers are signed on I-19, just so long as the road is there.
ADOT did try to replace the metric signage with miles at one point.  The locals were fiercely opposed.  And I doubt replacing I-19 signs with I-11 signs would cost a billion dollars.  If all they wanted to do was the stuff that will, then why have the line continue down I-19?  Why not leave I-19 alone and have I-11 end near there?  That begs the question as to why they would want to replace I-19.
I didn't say that it would cost a billion dollars or so to replace signs. But building a parallel highway, as has been proposed in a few cases, would definitely hit that mark.

And a duplex with 11/19 would be really pointless. I'm proposing running I-11 down the new AZ 85, south of I-10 to a terminus with I-8 in Gila Bend. Shouldn't be too tough to connect interstates between Gila Bend and Nogales.

Max Rockatansky

There is a lot of National Monument lane south of I-8 which push any freeway corridor fairly close to I-10.  Besides, it isn't like there is a great deal of development west of I-10 that really needs a freeway to serve it.  Again, it is this build it and they will come mentality that doesn't make much sense.

Bobby5280

Quote from: PColumbus73I think there could be a bump in truck traffic from the southern states, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, maybe Oklahoma specifically going northwest, but until there's a plan to take I-11 across the Cascades / Sierra Nevada, the Las Vegas-Reno section might not be worth it.

I don't see how I-11 would provide any benefit to New Mexico or Texas (much less Oklahoma).

I also agree I-11 to Reno might not be worth doing at all unless I-11 went farther North to tie into the I-5 corridor. That would give the Phoenix and Vegas metros direct Interstate links to the Portland, Seattle and Vancouver BC metros. I-11 would be a real "NAFTA" highway in that regard.

The Vegas to Phoenix link is the primary leg of I-11, whether any of the lawmakers involved with this thing want to admit it. This stupid crap of diverting I-11 way out West of Buckeye is just some pork-barrel string pulling to attempt helping some home developers trying to build planned communities out in the middle of nowhere. With America's residential real estate market in an even worse price bubble than 20 years ago, and considering the long term demographic decline America is now facing, this I-11 to Buckeye idea looks even more stupid than ever.

Bare minimum: I-11 should be tying into the AZ-303 loop either directly or with a 3-digit Interstate spur. Again, Vegas to Phoenix is the main purpose of the route.

Nogales is one of the lesser commercial points of entry along the US/Mexico border. Having dueling Interstate routes going down there would be a huge waste of money. If traffic on I-19 picks up they have plenty of room in that Interstate's ROW to add more lanes. They have enough room within Nogales to widen it from 2x2 to 4x4 lanes. The same goes for the rest of the Interstate. I-11 shouldn't be seen as a back-handed way to build a partial loop around Tucson. Let the anti-freeway folks in Tucson choke on their stop and go surface street traffic. They've had numerous opportunities over the decades to build "I-210" and other routes. Instead they squandered it.

Quote from: Scott5114Something that has been overlooked here is that there is a lot of industrial growth in the Reno area, mostly  driven by Tesla establishing facilities there. Could it be possible that Northern Nevada interests are leaning on NDOT to provide a better route south to the I-40 and I-10 corridors toward Texas, and that's why they're studying it?

I think the NV-439 corridor in Clark is really the spot where I-11 needs to connect into I-80. The big logistics hub is there, including Tesla's Gigafactory. Most of the existing NV-439 4-lane highway could be upgraded to Interstate standards down to Silver Springs and the US-50 corridor. From there it would be fairly easy to extend a new freeway to US-95 near Schurz. The question from there is whether to have I-11 wind its way along US-95 thru Walker Lake (on a very not-direct path) or bypass all that in favor of a far more direct path to Tonopah. Just for starters they need to get the connection with I-80 established. Then they can build on two disconnected segments of I-11 until they meet somewhere in the desert.

Voyager

Quote from: Bobby5280 on June 07, 2024, 10:47:24 AM
Quote from: PColumbus73I think there could be a bump in truck traffic from the southern states, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, maybe Oklahoma specifically going northwest, but until there's a plan to take I-11 across the Cascades / Sierra Nevada, the Las Vegas-Reno section might not be worth it.

I don't see how I-11 would provide any benefit to New Mexico or Texas (much less Oklahoma).

I also agree I-11 to Reno might not be worth doing at all unless I-11 went farther North to tie into the I-5 corridor. That would give the Phoenix and Vegas metros direct Interstate links to the Portland, Seattle and Vancouver BC metros. I-11 would be a real "NAFTA" highway in that regard.

The Vegas to Phoenix link is the primary leg of I-11, whether any of the lawmakers involved with this thing want to admit it. This stupid crap of diverting I-11 way out West of Buckeye is just some pork-barrel string pulling to attempt helping some home developers trying to build planned communities out in the middle of nowhere. With America's residential real estate market in an even worse price bubble than 20 years ago, and considering the long term demographic decline America is now facing, this I-11 to Buckeye idea looks even more stupid than ever.

Bare minimum: I-11 should be tying into the AZ-303 loop either directly or with a 3-digit Interstate spur. Again, Vegas to Phoenix is the main purpose of the route.

Nogales is one of the lesser commercial points of entry along the US/Mexico border. Having dueling Interstate routes going down there would be a huge waste of money. If traffic on I-19 picks up they have plenty of room in that Interstate's ROW to add more lanes. They have enough room within Nogales to widen it from 2x2 to 4x4 lanes. The same goes for the rest of the Interstate. I-11 shouldn't be seen as a back-handed way to build a partial loop around Tucson. Let the anti-freeway folks in Tucson choke on their stop and go surface street traffic. They've had numerous opportunities over the decades to build "I-210" and other routes. Instead they squandered it.

Quote from: Scott5114Something that has been overlooked here is that there is a lot of industrial growth in the Reno area, mostly  driven by Tesla establishing facilities there. Could it be possible that Northern Nevada interests are leaning on NDOT to provide a better route south to the I-40 and I-10 corridors toward Texas, and that's why they're studying it?

I think the NV-439 corridor in Clark is really the spot where I-11 needs to connect into I-80. The big logistics hub is there, including Tesla's Gigafactory. Most of the existing NV-439 4-lane highway could be upgraded to Interstate standards down to Silver Springs and the US-50 corridor. From there it would be fairly easy to extend a new freeway to US-95 near Schurz. The question from there is whether to have I-11 wind its way along US-95 thru Walker Lake (on a very not-direct path) or bypass all that in favor of a far more direct path to Tonopah. Just for starters they need to get the connection with I-80 established. Then they can build on two disconnected segments of I-11 until they meet somewhere in the desert.

I'd think they'd want it to connect into existing 580, but then that leaves a long jog that the route has to take over some mountains to connect around Walker Lake.
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vdeane

Quote from: FightingIrish on June 07, 2024, 09:01:04 AMI didn't say that it would cost a billion dollars or so to replace signs. But building a parallel highway, as has been proposed in a few cases, would definitely hit that mark.

And a duplex with 11/19 would be really pointless. I'm proposing running I-11 down the new AZ 85, south of I-10 to a terminus with I-8 in Gila Bend. Shouldn't be too tough to connect interstates between Gila Bend and Nogales.
I expect they would try to make I-11 parallel to I-10 and go to Tucson regardless of what they do south of there since that bit is proposed as a favor to housing developers.  I don't see them building a parallel road to I-19; instead it seems that they'll route I-11 down I-19 for no reason, probably decommissioning I-19 in the process.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.



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