News:

The AARoads Wiki is live! Come check it out!

Main Menu

"Rethink" I-94 (Twin Cities)

Started by triplemultiplex, May 08, 2024, 03:57:14 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

triplemultiplex

This might stir the pot.

https://talk.dot.state.mn.us/rethinking-i94/news_feed/alternatives

MinnDOT is looking at what to do with I-94 between Minneapolis and St. Paul as it comes due for a major overhaul.  And they've got some alternatives in there that I'm sure will raise some hackles:


or


But, they've also got a 10-lane freeway alternative:


Discuss.
 :popcorn:
"That's just like... your opinion, man."


The Ghostbuster

I'd go for the one of the Expanded Freeway Alternatives, with covers over the freeway to reconnect neighborhoods. The At-Grade Alternatives are ludicrous, they shouldn't make the roadway at-grade unless Interstate 94 is placed in a deep-bored tunnel (which would be insanely expensive). The Local/Regional Roadway Alternative, and the Reduced Freeway Alternative would increase congestion along the corridor. The Reconfigured Freeway Alternative would turn one general-purpose lane into a managed lane, and I would oppose that.

paulthemapguy

If the at-grade roadway alternative only has three stops, I don't see how the BRT would be a sufficient condition to downgrade I-94 from a limited-access freeway. If there will only be a few stops, MNDOT could take a similar approach as that found on I-405 in Bellevue, Washington, for example. Left exits from the bus lane up to the surface street would be expensive, but it sounds like there would only be a few of them.   https://maps.app.goo.gl/ycivXMygTLLsrdE3A

To have no physical barriers between freeway traffic and bike/ped traffic sounds wildly unsafe. In some of this, I'm sensing some Phase I folks who are 100% theory and 0% pragmatism.  Dreams of transportation equity are fine and all, but they should be rolled out in a way that enables safety and serves travel demand. We don't need bikes/peds on every single traveled way.  Give the bikes/peds something robust, but parallel to I-94, rather than directly on the freeway:crazy:  :crazy:  :crazy:

Generally, equity is providing conduit to serve travel demand to all modes for as many trips as possible. It isn't about turning every single segment of trafficway into something that serves all imaginable modes.
Avatar is the last interesting highway I clinched.
My website! http://www.paulacrossamerica.com Now featuring all of Ohio!
My USA Shield Gallery https://flic.kr/s/aHsmHwJRZk
TM Clinches https://bit.ly/2UwRs4O

National collection status: 383/425. Only 42 route markers remain!

bschultzy

Quote from: paulthemapguy on May 20, 2024, 03:53:19 PMTo have no physical barriers between freeway traffic and bike/ped traffic sounds wildly unsafe. In some of this, I'm sensing some Phase I folks who are 100% theory and 0% pragmatism.  Dreams of transportation equity are fine and all, but they should be rolled out in a way that enables safety and serves travel demand. We don't need bikes/peds on every single traveled way.  Give the bikes/peds something robust, but parallel to I-94, rather than directly on the freeway:crazy:  :crazy:  :crazy:

Generally, equity is providing conduit to serve travel demand to all modes for as many trips as possible. It isn't about turning every single segment of trafficway into something that serves all imaginable modes.

Along these lines, robust upgrades to St. Anthony, Concordia, and Rondo Aves. along I-94 in St. Paul should be a high priority. I know there are some legitimate existing concerns about traffic speeds on those frontage roads, so efforts should be made to slow down cars and provide ample options for transit, bikes, and peds.

In my mind, the freeway is the toothpaste that's already out of the tube. The question is how do we improve the overall context in a meaningful way rather than wasting time on pie-in-the-sky fantasies that look nice on paper?

Bruce

Quote from: paulthemapguy on May 20, 2024, 03:53:19 PMMNDOT could take a similar approach as that found on I-405 in Bellevue, Washington, for example. Left exits from the bus lane up to the surface street would be expensive, but it sounds like there would only be a few of them.   https://maps.app.goo.gl/ycivXMygTLLsrdE3A

The ramp shown is for a major terminus that has few through-routes, so it's not quite the model. Something like the Totem Lake Freeway Station further north on I-405 makes more sense, but it's not a pleasant waiting environment:



Ideally, with a lid you can dampen noise and still have easy bus connections, as is done on SR 520:



Or this one being built now:

Wikipedia - TravelMapping (100% of WA SRs)

Photos

vdeane

Quote from: paulthemapguy on May 20, 2024, 03:53:19 PMTo have no physical barriers between freeway traffic and bike/ped traffic sounds wildly unsafe. In some of this, I'm sensing some Phase I folks who are 100% theory and 0% pragmatism.  Dreams of transportation equity are fine and all, but they should be rolled out in a way that enables safety and serves travel demand. We don't need bikes/peds on every single traveled way.  Give the bikes/peds something robust, but parallel to I-94, rather than directly on the freeway:crazy:  :crazy:  :crazy:

Generally, equity is providing conduit to serve travel demand to all modes for as many trips as possible. It isn't about turning every single segment of trafficway into something that serves all imaginable modes.
Too many people care more about getting revenge on drivers than they do about providing the best balance between all modes of transportation (of course, roadgeeks can sometimes be the reverse... I remember when "bikey-wikey" was being thrown around a certain Facebook group).
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

TheHighwayMan3561

#6
I think at the end of the day the freeway will remain mostly the same with some desired neighborhood cross-freeway accessibility improvements, whether lids or otherwise. The urbanists consider anything short of total removal (i.e. lids) to be as unacceptable as 14-laning the freeway, but MnDOT usually gives them lip service and then ignores them at the end.

The only thing I really want is the lane drop through Snelling to be filled. Just that. Please.
self-certified as the dumbest person on this board for 5 years running

Plutonic Panda

I like the 10 lane alternative. What are the chances that gets selected?

TheHighwayMan3561

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on May 22, 2024, 12:03:51 AMI like the 10 lane alternative. What are the chances that gets selected?

Pretty much zero. The city is opposed to any expansion of the freeway.
self-certified as the dumbest person on this board for 5 years running

Plutonic Panda

Quote from: TheHighwayMan3561 on May 22, 2024, 05:51:49 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on May 22, 2024, 12:03:51 AMI like the 10 lane alternative. What are the chances that gets selected?

Pretty much zero. The city is opposed to any expansion of the freeway.
Didn't they just vote for expanding a few others highways though?

The Ghostbuster

Another Saint Paul location I can think of that might also benefit from decks being built over the freeway is the short Interstates 35E/94 duplex. The segment between Wabasha St. N and Jackson St. seems like an ideal place to build some decks. Since there are already trees along the south side of the freeway's right-of-way, building decks there might lessen the barrier the freeway has towards the surrounding neighborhoods. Does anyone else have any ideas on where decks could be built in the Twin Cities Metropolitan Area?

Molandfreak

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on May 22, 2024, 07:08:01 PMAnother Saint Paul location I can think of that might also benefit from decks being built over the freeway is the short Interstates 35E/94 duplex. The segment between Wabasha St. N and Jackson St. seems like an ideal place to build some decks. Since there are already trees along the south side of the freeway's right-of-way, building decks there might lessen the barrier the freeway has towards the surrounding neighborhoods. Does anyone else have any ideas on where decks could be built in the Twin Cities Metropolitan Area?
Over 94 at 52 would be ideal to help redesign that awful bend from northbound to westbound. Alternatively they should ban the trucks who are causing it to be so awful and direct them over to the 61 interchange instead.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 05, 2023, 08:24:57 PM
AASHTO attributes 28.5% of highway inventory shrink to bad road fan social media posts.

hobsini2

If they really wanted, they could cap I-94 from US 10/61 through Downtown St Paul to MN 280. I-94 is below street level that entire length. The I-35ENorth ramps would be tricky. Maybe leave that as it currently is. I would certainly prioritize capping by Concordia University and the soccer stadium and the downtown section between Jackson and Wabasha connecting the the State Capitol Mall with the rest of downtown.
I knew it. I'm surrounded by assholes. Keep firing, assholes! - Dark Helmet (Spaceballs)

Brandon

#13
Only the reconfigured or expanded freeways make any sense.  The at-grade ones are totally redacted, and the reduced freeway is simply moronic.  All of those seem to be some urbanist's wet dream.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton, "Game of Thrones"

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg, "Monty Python's Life of Brian"

KelleyCook

I drove through Minneapolis/St. Paul on I-94 last week.  It's mostly fine.

Except for the moronic cloverleaf interchangea with the other freeways which cause massive backups.

I realize that when it was built, cloverleafs were cheap compared to a stack, but what the hell were they thinking? Even in the early sixties they weren't recommended for freeway to freeway interaction.

Bickendan

Someone actually asked for a modified Bruce Watkins Drive. Oof.

Deep-bore the 94 or cap it, as Hobsini suggests. Hazmat drivers will have to find alternatives, but it's better than outright expanding or reducing the freeway.

TheHighwayMan3561

Quote from: Bickendan on July 08, 2024, 03:13:40 PMSomeone actually asked for a modified Bruce Watkins Drive. Oof.

Deep-bore the 94 or cap it, as Hobsini suggests. Hazmat drivers will have to find alternatives, but it's better than outright expanding or reducing the freeway.

Those drivers are already banned from the Lowry Hill Tunnel and trucks are generally encouraged to use I-694, so at least that may not be too much of an effort.
self-certified as the dumbest person on this board for 5 years running

thspfc

Quote from: Bickendan on July 08, 2024, 03:13:40 PMSomeone actually asked for a modified Bruce Watkins Drive. Oof.
It's so funny because a road like that has all the negatives of a freeway (ableit to a slightly smaller degree) with very few of the positives in return.

The compromise between MNDOT and the anti-car mob would result in basically another Hiawatha Ave, except with double the traffic. Nobody benefits from that.

hobsini2

Not to side track this but when I looked up Bruce Watkins Dr because I could not remember where that was, Google gave me the listings for Dr Bruce Watkins. Apparently, there's about a half dozen people with that name who are doctors all over the country. Sioux City, Idaho Falls, Omaha, Machesney Park (by Rockford), Elkhart IN. Just a crazy thought.
I knew it. I'm surrounded by assholes. Keep firing, assholes! - Dark Helmet (Spaceballs)

TheHighwayMan3561

#19
Quote from: thspfc on July 08, 2024, 04:41:36 PM
Quote from: Bickendan on July 08, 2024, 03:13:40 PMSomeone actually asked for a modified Bruce Watkins Drive. Oof.
It's so funny because a road like that has all the negatives of a freeway (ableit to a slightly smaller degree) with very few of the positives in return.

The compromise between MNDOT and the anti-car mob would result in basically another Hiawatha Ave, except with double the traffic. Nobody benefits from that.

What I think these urbanists really want to say but can't is they think people who live in Minneapolis shouldn't "just go" to St. Paul and vice versa, and they think people should stay where they are unless they have a legitimate need to make the trip.
self-certified as the dumbest person on this board for 5 years running

The Ghostbuster

What do they want to do, immobilize people?

Plutonic Panda

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 11, 2024, 11:49:08 AMWhat do they want to do, immobilize people?
No, just make you a slave to trains and buses. I'm sure that would make them pretty happy.

D-Dey65

Sounds like the same old anti-highway bullshit that hat has been making traffic go from bad to worse.


rte66man

Quote from: hobsini2 on July 09, 2024, 12:30:11 PMNot to side track this but when I looked up Bruce Watkins Dr because I could not remember where that was, Google gave me the listings for Dr Bruce Watkins. Apparently, there's about a half dozen people with that name who are doctors all over the country. Sioux City, Idaho Falls, Omaha, Machesney Park (by Rockford), Elkhart IN. Just a crazy thought.

I think the roads community assumes everyone knows the reference was to the one in KCMO (US71)
When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra

hobsini2

Quote from: rte66man on July 12, 2024, 09:22:56 AM
Quote from: hobsini2 on July 09, 2024, 12:30:11 PMNot to side track this but when I looked up Bruce Watkins Dr because I could not remember where that was, Google gave me the listings for Dr Bruce Watkins. Apparently, there's about a half dozen people with that name who are doctors all over the country. Sioux City, Idaho Falls, Omaha, Machesney Park (by Rockford), Elkhart IN. Just a crazy thought.

I think the roads community assumes everyone knows the reference was to the one in KCMO (US71)
I didn't. I had to look it up. I didn't know US 71's formal name in KC.
I knew it. I'm surrounded by assholes. Keep firing, assholes! - Dark Helmet (Spaceballs)



Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.