News:

Thank you for your patience during the Forum downtime while we upgraded the software. Welcome back and see this thread for some new features and other changes to the forum.

Main Menu

Interstate 369

Started by Grzrd, October 19, 2013, 10:41:06 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

Anthony_JK

#75
Quote from: Grzrd on May 18, 2016, 09:12:57 AM
Quote from: Anthony_JK on May 18, 2016, 01:13:36 AM
Could it be possible that they might do both a West Loop AND a full upgrade of US 59 to Loop 151? That would make for a nice connection to the future Tex-Americas Center AND a good direct bypass to I-30 East via Loop 151 and I-49.

To restate your question, could it be possible to have an I-369W and an I-369E, with each having its own terminus at I-49, and the current I-369 redesignated as I-369C, with its termini at I-30 and I-369E? What state would do something silly like have three suffixed prongs?  :happy:

Seriously, with enough money, it could be possible.


I was thinking more of an I-369 routing along US 59 and the eastern portion of Loop 151; a short I-x30 connector designation for the rest of Loop 151, and an I-669 or I-649 designation for the Western Loop. No more suffices.

[Note: Modded by me to clear up the quote nesting.]


Grzrd

#76
Quote from: Anthony_JK on May 18, 2016, 10:15:20 AM
I was thinking more of an I-369 routing along US 59 and the eastern portion of Loop 151; a short I-x30 connector designation for the rest of Loop 151, and an I-669 or I-649 designation for the Western Loop. No more suffices.

I was just being silly. At the risk of straying into Fictional territory, I think a relocated US 59 would be part of a West Loop: Congressional designation would probably have I-369 follow the relocated US 59. I would then consider I-249 for the "southern" connection of I-369 and I-49. Finally, I would redesignate the current I-369 as I-130.  Each of the three 2dis gets its own 3di: less potential confusion for the public.

I better hop back to the real world now .........

The Ghostbuster


Grzrd

#78
Quote from: Grzrd on March 14, 2016, 05:19:01 PM
Quote from: Grzrd on March 03, 2015, 01:27:39 PM
Google Earth has posted January 25, 2015 imagery of the US 59/ Future I-369 main lane overpass construction (and associated frontage road work) at FM 3129 in Cass County ....Google Maps has now updated its imagery (which includes a labelled U.S. 59 Frontage Road), as well.
This April 15, 2015 Interstate 69 Talking Points presentation shows both a southbound US 59 concrete overlay project that includes the above grade separation and a northbound US 59 concrete overlay project (I'm guessing the overlay is on current mainlanes that will one day be the frontage roads) (p. 4/21 of pdf):

This Sept. 12 article does mention work in Cass County, but does not provide much detail:

Quote
In Cass County, plans are underway to develop a future corridor through Northeast Texas.
State and local officials are in the planning and development stages of extending Interstate 69 up to Texarkana.
It will run from the Texas and Mexico border and follow alongside the path of U.S. 59 through Atlanta.
Officials say it's needed to met the state's growing population and to transport freight between businesses.
They want add bypasses in smaller towns to make the least impact.
"If you go through towns on the existing route you will have to do away with a lot of business and homes and we don't want to do that," said Marcus Sandifer, public information officer of the Atlanta district of the Texas Department of Transportation.
Sandifer says a future interstate corridor will boost local economies by attracting more industries.
They also say it will be safer for 18-wheelers driving long distances.
The project does not yet have funding and will be developed over the course of decades through towns across Texas.
The Texas Department of Transportation says the future Interstate 69 won't be completed for at least 20 to 30 years.

The Ghostbuster

So for the next 20 or 30 years (or longer), Interstate 369 will be an orphaned Interstate. I think they should have waited until the freeway between Texarkana and Tenaha was completed, and connected to Future Interstate 69 before giving any part of the road the Interstate 369 designation.

Bobby5280

The road wouldn't take another 20 or 30 years to complete if the United States was more on the ball with infrastructure development. Instead, our nation has allowed greed and good ole boy network growth of bureaucracy to stifle America's ability to do big things.

Most of the original Interstate system, which spanned somewhere between 30,000 to 40,000 miles, was built between the 1950's and 1970's. That's basically a pace of more than 1,000 miles of freeway per year. Today, despite advances in technology, we can't match that pace. That's thanks to very high price inflation of road projects and regulatory bureaucracy that radically delays and further balloons the cost of road projects (in part because of the never ending high rate of inflation).

Rothman

Quote from: Bobby5280 on September 20, 2016, 07:00:52 PM
That's thanks to very high price inflation of road projects and regulatory bureaucracy that radically delays and further balloons the cost of road projects (in part because of the never ending high rate of inflation).

What I've also found fascinating about the explosion in the cost of projects over the past few decades is that it also coincides with DOTs contracting out more and more work rather than maintaining in-house crews.  Although there are certainly additional regulations that increase the cost of a project (e.g., NEPA), the mantra that privatization results in lower costs hasn't seemed to have panned out.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Bobby5280

I used to laugh at the extremely high prices of mass transit projects. It has been typical for something as modest as a simple light rail line to cost in the billions of dollars. Add in various corruption scandals to tarnish the image further. I laughed at this with disdain since the United States had around 200,000 miles worth of rail and a whole lot of passenger rail coverage nearly a century ago when the nation was far more primitive.

The same disease infecting mass transit projects has moved into road. We can't get big things done because too many greedy people gotta get paid big dollars.

DeaconG

Quote from: Bobby5280 on September 21, 2016, 01:43:20 PM
I used to laugh at the extremely high prices of mass transit projects. It has been typical for something as modest as a simple light rail line to cost in the billions of dollars. Add in various corruption scandals to tarnish the image further. I laughed at this with disdain since the United States had around 200,000 miles worth of rail and a whole lot of passenger rail coverage nearly a century ago when the nation was far more primitive.

The same disease infecting mass transit projects has moved into road. We can't get big things done because too many greedy people gotta get paid big dollars.

Would that it were that easy; you've already got a scarcity of materials (China has 30 supertalls built or under construction and 100 more planned, plus building out a 3500-mile limited access system, the Middle East is also throwing up buildings like no one's business [see the Dubai waterfront]), then add in the fluctuations in currency, the lack of a stable funding source and the extensive environmental regulations (which doesn't always involve nature, see East End bridge and the Drummond Estate) and you should not wonder why.
Dawnstar: "You're an ape! And you can talk!"
King Solovar: "And you're a human with wings! Reality holds surprises for everyone!"
-Crisis On Infinite Earths #2

Bobby5280

Actually, a lot of the construction binges going on in China and the Middle East have slowed way down. The oil glut and price war between the Saudis and Iran made a lot of building activity come to a screeching stop in places like Dubai. There's a huge amount of unoccupied real estate there. All that Dubai waterfront activity was going full throttle 10 years ago. They're not breaking ground on much of anything new now. The Saudi government is cutting back on a lot of subsidies. The middle class there is going through a financial squeeze they've never felt before. The Chinese economy is in a fairly deep recession -fallout from the larger global recession and far less consumer spending. The Chinese even have a glut of steel on hand.

Even with all that said, the prices of concrete and steel have not come down much at all.

The paperwork side of road construction is just as maddening and only seeming to get worse. The federal government and states don't seem interested at all in making the regulatory process more efficient. They just want to bleed away even more time. But we do have a government of the lawyers, by the lawyers and for the lawyers. So anything that can inflate the amount of billable hours is seen as a good thing to them I suppose.

I remember how things were with infrastructure when I was a kid. I would have thought 30+ years later that government agencies, engineering firms, etc. would get a whole lot more advanced, efficient and much faster at the process of designing and building big things. If anything it has gone in the reverse direction and done so to an extreme.

A long time ago I kind of laughed at how far fetched some of structures were in science fiction movies, such as Bladerunner. Now I think the stuff is even more ridiculous. Here's a futuristic thought: an America that prices itself out of being able to afford driving cars and paving streets. We might be back to riding horses in the future. :-P

english si

Quote from: DeaconG on September 22, 2016, 09:19:50 PMChina ... building out a 3500-mile limited access system
Do you mean 3500-miles per year? That's about right for Chinese expressway construction (the national network is over 50000 miles, which is bigger than the interstate network).

DeaconG

Quote from: english si on September 24, 2016, 04:22:46 PM
Quote from: DeaconG on September 22, 2016, 09:19:50 PMChina ... building out a 3500-mile limited access system
Do you mean 3500-miles per year? That's about right for Chinese expressway construction (the national network is over 50000 miles, which is bigger than the interstate network).

Now that I did not know, the sources I remembered said 3500 miles in total. That's a lot of expressway...
Dawnstar: "You're an ape! And you can talk!"
King Solovar: "And you're a human with wings! Reality holds surprises for everyone!"
-Crisis On Infinite Earths #2

Bobby5280

3500 miles of freeway or tollway per year or whatever? It makes no difference. China is not doing that now. Their economy is in the toilet. Whatever extra money the Communist party has they're blowing it on creating artificial islands off the coasts of Australia, Japan, the Philippines and Indonesia -all for military power projection. They're tip toeing more and more to a World War III confrontation. Meanwhile us idiotic, hair-brained Americans are more concerned about the Chinese making our Apple® iPhones™ fast enough. We don't care about how many political prisoners they execute every year. Or how many endangered species they put ever closer to extinction due to the perversions in their culture. I mean, really, what are they doing with those black rhino horns? Jamming them in their backsides?

Grzrd

Quote from: Grzrd on April 13, 2016, 10:04:26 AM
This April 11 Texarkana Gazette article reports that Bowie County will seek state grant money to fund a preliminary study to locate the I-30/ I-369 interchange closer to TexAmericas Center, and that TexAmericas Center will provide a 50% match for the grant:
Quote
In other business, commissioners approved plans to apply for state grant money, which will pay for a study on a preliminary plan to have the Interstate 30 and Interstate 369 West Loop interchange run closer to the TexAmericas Center. This could include a possible frontage roadway access to the center.

This Sept. 28 article reports that TexAmericas Center is still interested in I-369 and that it is actively engaged in the I-30 Corridor Study:

Quote
Scott Norton, the center's executive director and chief executive officer ....
added that he also attended an Interstate 69 annual meeting in Houston and secured the center's membership on the Interstate 30 Corridor Study Committee.

Grzrd

The Alliance for I-69 Texas held an I-69 Day March 1 to, among other things, provide an update on the progress of I-69. Of interest is that that they now include the Texarkana Northwest Loop as part of I-369 (p. 15/15 of pdf):



Elsewhere in the presentation, they play up the connection to I-49 (p. 14/15 of pdf):



At least they seem to be making progress on the marketing end.

sparker

Quote from: Grzrd on March 13, 2017, 01:47:15 PM
The Alliance for I-69 Texas held an I-69 Day March 1 to, among other things, provide an update on the progress of I-69. Of interest is that that they now include the Texarkana Northwest Loop as part of I-369 (p. 15/15 of pdf):
Elsewhere in the presentation, they play up the connection to I-49 (p. 14/15 of pdf):

At least they seem to be making progress on the marketing end.

The I-69-related powers that be in TX (TXDOT + the Alliance for I-69), as I've averred elsewhere, would likely be more than satisfied if the I-69 mainline were completed north to the Tenaha area, subsequently emptying out onto I-369.  The HPC (#20) connecting Laredo with Texarkana was their "baby" from the beginning; the other one (#18) addressing the rest of the I-69 corridor was a joint venture with (mostly) Indiana figures to cobble up a corridor that would serve their localized interests but also garner support from the interim areas through which the corridor passed (Memphis, etc.).  The TX interests managed to get the 69E/C "trident" through vetting under the HPC 18 aegis -- but as far as LA (or even AR) mileage is concerned -- it isn't a pressing matter for TX that those segments not directly benefiting or serving the state be developed in any sort of timely fashion.  So look for the 69/369 continuum to see some level of progress (even in bits and pieces) while anything going into LA is put on the back burner, so to speak.   


Grzrd

This article reports that the Texarkana Chamber of Commerce is still actively looking for funds for I-369:

Quote
Texarkana Chamber of Commerce officials, members and associates continue to meet with policy makers on all levels to advocate for local and regional interests, as covered in the chamber's March meeting .... Cory Floyd, chamber board chairman, spoke of the I-69 Fly-In, a trip scheduled for May that involves chamber members going to Washington, D.C., to plead for funding to complete Interstate 69. The emphasis will include completion of I-369 leading to Texarkana. Anyone is welcome to join the chamber on this trip at their own expense ....

sparker

Quote from: Grzrd on April 04, 2017, 02:59:23 PM
This article reports that the Texarkana Chamber of Commerce is still actively looking for funds for I-369:

Quote
Texarkana Chamber of Commerce officials, members and associates continue to meet with policy makers on all levels to advocate for local and regional interests, as covered in the chamber's March meeting .... Cory Floyd, chamber board chairman, spoke of the I-69 Fly-In, a trip scheduled for May that involves chamber members going to Washington, D.C., to plead for funding to complete Interstate 69. The emphasis will include completion of I-369 leading to Texarkana. Anyone is welcome to join the chamber on this trip at their own expense ....

Hmm....Texarkana wants I-369 completed -- about as surprising as finding out the sky is blue and bears purportedly shit in the woods.  One would surmise that it's likely that the currently signed I-369 will be eventually bypassed by a wider-radius loop west and north of town directly hooking into I-49 well north of I-30.  Because of its relatively strategic location -- and with a 5-pronged present/future Interstate egress network -- it could also be predicted that Texarkana will actively seek out warehousing and/or logistics/fulfillment facilities to locate along one or another of the Interstate facilities in the area.  And since the current I-369 freeway segues (via TX Loop 151 and the remainder of AR 245) seamlessly into I-49 south of town, there might be a push for that loop section as a 2nd regional 3di based on I-30 or I-49.  Since two states would be competing for facility location, it'll be interesting to see how local and state politics plays out regarding I-369's eventual alignment and the above 3di concept!

The Ghostbuster

Does anyone agree with my opinion that maybe more of the proposed freeway should have been constructed before signing the road as Interstate 369? Especially when the portion signed is at the northern end.

sparker

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on April 04, 2017, 04:40:19 PM
Does anyone agree with my opinion that maybe more of the proposed freeway should have been constructed before signing the road as Interstate 369? Especially when the portion signed is at the northern end.

It seems that Texarkana local interests had TXDOT's ear in regards to getting a "placeholder" I-369 designation applied to the N-S US 59 freeway in the west part of town.  They likely subscribe to the "nose through the door" notion that once a portion of the road is signed, then other segments will inevitably follow (regardless, in this case, of alternate alignment plans).  Just like with the couple of miles of I-69W near Laredo and I-69C in the lower Rio Grande valley, the current I-369 signage is intended to convey seriousness about the corridor's development -- i.e., it's more for show than a real indicator regarding the final route.

Grzrd

This April 6 article lists some proposed additions to the highway projects listed in Texarkana's 2015-2040 Metropolitan Transportation Plan, including an I-69 Route Study from Texarkana to Atlanta:

Quote
Proposed projects include: ....
Route Study for I69 from Texarkana to Atlanta

The Texarkana MPO recently posted the May 17, 2017 Amendment #1 to the 2015-2040 Metropolitan Transportation Plan and it included the Route Study for I-69 from Texarkana to Atlanta in the 2020 to 2024 Fiscally Constrained Project List (p. 92/131 of pdf; p. 84 of document):


....


Since the prior route study ran into NIMBY opposition, the choice of Atlanta as the southern terminus of the study presents the possibility of going around the western end of Wright Patman Lake, or maybe using the the SH 8 bridge as a basis for an interstate upgrade, before heading up to TexAmericas Center, thereby avoiding the NIMBYs. It will be interesting to see as details come forth about the study.

Also, in the unfunded "wish list" of projects, there is an upgrade of the current US 59 to interstate standards from the current I-369 to the Cass County line, with a price tag of approximately $200 million (p. 95/131 of pdf; p. 87 of document):


....


With that price tag, it would make sense to explore the "western" option. And, as would be expected, the route for I-369 would need to be determined before the route for the Northern Loop could be studied.

bwana39

Yes, the freeway needs to go further west around Texarkana. Cross Sulphur River just east of the lake and then head mostly north. Probably slap through the middle of TexAmerica center (East) probably run near the current SPUR74. This said, that is common sense. It misses almost all of the current homes and businesses AND neatly dovetails with the proposed I49 crossing of the Red River and adds great access to TexAmericas center.

The problem is much of this runs through a neo-governmental non-profit (TexAmericas Center). No one gets rich on the frontage.  I hate sounding skeptical, but that is how it plays. Not here: Everywhere. 

Frankly, if we worried about the loops around the towns US59 currently goes through,  it would actually make the traffic better.





Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

Grzrd

Quote from: Grzrd on June 11, 2017, 02:44:54 PM
This April 6 article lists some proposed additions to the highway projects listed in Texarkana's 2015-2040 Metropolitan Transportation Plan, including an I-69 Route Study from Texarkana to Atlanta

This July 12 article reports that the Atlanta City Council approved a resolution asking TxDOT to study the I-369 alignment near Atlanta:

Quote
.... City Manager David Cockrell ....
The council also approved a resolution supporting the Texas Department of Transportation's efforts to study future route alignments of Interstate 369
, which will connect Interstate 30 in Texarkana to Interstate 69, which extends to the border with Mexico.
According to information on the TxDOT website, "I-69 is a proposed national interstate that extends from Texas to Michigan. The Texas route includes several existing roads: U.S. 59, U.S. 84, U.S. 77 and U.S. 281.
"In 2011, the first section on I-69 was established. Since then, TxDOT has been using the recommendations of the I-69 Citizen Committees to further plan and develop I-69 Texas."
Cockrell said, "The Metropolitan Planning Organization up in Texarkana has already passed a resolution asking for an alignment study for the future IH 369 corridor."
He later added, "How's it going to get around Atlanta? This resolution is going to be business that you would rather take care of sooner rather than later. Once we get a route defined, we can say, "˜OK, we're going to reach out and touch that thing as a community so that if it's not in our corporate limits, we're going to want it -- unless it's way far out -- we're going to want to serve that with utilities."

Atlanta officials want to have input in the process, Cockrell emphasized.
"I communicated with the mayor of Queen City and the city manager of Linden ... It's my understanding that everybody is going to try to get very similar resolutions passed."

Grzrd

This July 26 article reports that the Cass County Commissioners Court also passed a resolution in support of TxDOT studying potential routes for I-369, but any action is probably years away:

Quote
Both the Atlanta City Council and Cass County Commissioners Court recently passed resolutions supporting the Texas Department of Transportation's study of potential routes for Interstate Highway 369, which will facilitate traffic through northeast Texas as part of the planned Interstate 69 corridor ....
Much of the corridor through this area will follow an upgraded U.S. 59, but because of interstate specifications that must be met -- roadway width, the installation of frontage roads -- the corridor must go around towns like Atlanta and Linden, most likely through the use of relief routes.
One of the reasons for the recent local resolutions is to reserve a seat at the table for Cass County communities once planning of those routes gets underway -- something which could still be years away ....

"They (transportation officials) will look at several different routes, they'll look at environmental, historical, churches, homes. Different things. Cemeteries. There are certain things you have to miss, have to go around,"  said Marcus Sandifer, public information officer with TxDOT's Atlanta District.
"Once the study is complete, it will be presented in a public meeting. We'll have it open to the public, and they can come in and talk about it and look at the different studies and ... voice their opinion on which route they prefer."  ....
Segments of I-69 corridor are being constructed as funding becomes available, and there's no set timeframe yet for work through Cass County.
Less traffic flows along the route through our area than some other communities along the corridor, and those areas have been higher priorities.

TxDOT will hold a public meeting this Fall about the route selected for Marshall:

Quote
Marshall, also along the I-69 corridor, has been engaged in such a process for years now, Sandifer pointed out.
Another public meeting for that area is scheduled for the fall.
There, a number of routes were looked at before a preferred route was chosen. The next meeting will focus on that route.

Grzrd

Quote from: Grzrd on June 11, 2017, 02:44:54 PM
The Texarkana MPO recently posted the May 17, 2017 Amendment #1 to the 2015-2040 Metropolitan Transportation Plan and it included the Route Study for I-69 from Texarkana to Atlanta in the 2020 to 2024 Fiscally Constrained Project List (p. 92/131 of pdf; p. 84 of document):

....

This article indicates that the route study began on Sept. 1, 2017 and that it should last about a year:

Quote
Judge Carlow has also continued his efforts to advance regional transportation projects such as Interstate 69/Interstate 369, Highway 82 and the widening of Interstate 30 in Texarkana.
"We were successful in securing funds for the final route study for the segment of I-69/I-369 from Texarkana to Queen City. The study formally began Sept. 1, 2017, and is expected to take about a year. It's great to see the progress continue," Judge Carlow said.



Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.