North Carolina

[cpzilliacus]

News and Observer: Plan fights evasion of I-95 toll in North Carolina

[goobnav]

News and Observer: Plan fights evasion of I-95 toll in North Carolina

Read the article yesterday, the map on paper is perfect to show just how to avoid and take US 301 to get back on with no tolls.  This is a disaster waiting to happen.  If they get this and VA does not toll I-85 the traffic will use it as an alternate and Triangle traffic will become worse than it is now.

[cpzilliacus]

News and Observer: Plan fights evasion of I-95 toll in North Carolina

Read the article yesterday, the map on paper is perfect to show just how to avoid and take US 301 to get back on with no tolls.  This is a disaster waiting to happen.  If they get this and VA does not toll I-85 the traffic will use it as an alternate and Triangle traffic will become worse than it is now.

I-85 serves a very different travel market from I-95, and I do not believe that much traffic will divert from 95 to 85, even if 95 were to be tolled across all of North Carolina.

Are you suggesting that trips will divert down I-85 at Petersburg, Va. and then continue south on U.S. 1 in the direction of Raleigh?

[goobnav]

Yes.  Plus I-540, US-64 to get out to the Eastern part of the state from Raleigh or US-1 South to US 74(I-74) or I-73 when completed in SC.  Don't forget the toll is supposed to be $19.20 and that is with NC QuickPass or E-ZPass, with gas prices going up, truckers will take a slighty about 45 to 60 mile detour to save money.

[1995hoo]

People who are willing to put a modicum of thought into routes might well take I-85 to save on tolls. The distance from my house to my sister-in-law's house in Florida is 859 miles if I do a straight shot down I-95 (except for taking I-295 around Richmond). If I jump off onto I-85, then take US-1 south to Raleigh, then take the Beltline around the east side of town to pick up I-40 and then return to I-95 at Benson, the trip becomes a whole three miles longer (862 miles) and I'd have cut off about half to two-thirds of I-95 through North Carolina. There's a slight time penalty, but it's not severe.

If instead I take US-1 on down through Sanford and the Pinehurst area and return to I-95 in South Carolina (I've never actually done this yet), the trip becomes 870 miles. Time-wise I'm sure it's a good bit longer due to traffic, red lights, and lower speed limits; Google Maps estimates an extra 50 minutes. But if you're a truck driver or someone who drives on that road regularly, the extra time might well be worth it, given that the tolls for trucks are almost always higher than they are for cars. I could see truck drivers peeling off I-95 at the I-74 interchange near Lumberton to hook west to US-1. They'd still incur a toll, but it would be relatively minimal.

The other routes via US-29 or I-77 aren't really great options, especially for truckers, due to terrain or the additional distance. Saving on a toll becomes a false economy if you burn enough fuel that it winds up costing the same amount. You have to be a really adamant anti-toll zealot to be willing to do that (I'm not).

[goobnav]

People who are willing to put a modicum of thought into routes might well take I-85 to save on tolls. The distance from my house to my sister-in-law's house in Florida is 859 miles if I do a straight shot down I-95 (except for taking I-295 around Richmond). If I jump off onto I-85, then take US-1 south to Raleigh, then take the Beltline around the east side of town to pick up I-40 and then return to I-95 at Benson, the trip becomes a whole three miles longer (862 miles) and I'd have cut off about half to two-thirds of I-95 through North Carolina. There's a slight time penalty, but it's not severe.

If instead I take US-1 on down through Sanford and the Pinehurst area and return to I-95 in South Carolina (I've never actually done this yet), the trip becomes 870 miles. Time-wise I'm sure it's a good bit longer due to traffic, red lights, and lower speed limits; Google Maps estimates an extra 50 minutes. But if you're a truck driver or someone who drives on that road regularly, the extra time might well be worth it, given that the tolls for trucks are almost always higher than they are for cars. I could see truck drivers peeling off I-95 at the I-74 interchange near Lumberton to hook west to US-1. They'd still incur a toll, but it would be relatively minimal.

The other routes via US-29 or I-77 aren't really great options, especially for truckers, due to terrain or the additional distance. Saving on a toll becomes a false economy if you burn enough fuel that it winds up costing the same amount. You have to be a really adamant anti-toll zealot to be willing to do that (I'm not).

Per the article, NCDOT estimates that 20 to 25% will try to avoid the tolls but, they are using that to justify higher cost of toll.  The PA Turnpike is $30.17 for the 359 miles of the mainline, I-76 & 276, I-95 in NC is half the distance, 181 miles and only $10 less?  The truckers are already to protest this and I am sure their Teamster brothers will join soon.  This is going to be a fun thing to see played out.

[froggie]

There's a slight time penalty, but it's not severe.

Depends on what time you hit Wake Forest.  I'd say it's a moderate time penalty with the lights and sprawl between Wake Forest and the Beltline.

Per the article, NCDOT estimates that 20 to 25% will try to avoid the tolls but, they are using that to justify higher cost of toll.  The PA Turnpike is $30.17 for the 359 miles of the mainline, I-76 & 276, I-95 in NC is half the distance, 181 miles and only $10 less?  The truckers are already to protest this and I am sure their Teamster brothers will join soon.  This is going to be a fun thing to see played out.

Well here's the problem:  if we don't get the money, we can't maintain the road, let alone widen it.  Trucks are getting off at a damn good rate anyway, given that the amount of damage they do to pavement is considerably more than 3-4 times that of cars.  We're living on borrowed time right now as it is with transportation funding....unless elected officials, not to mention the voters who vote them in, are willing to accept higher transportation taxes and/or tolls, the bottom WILL FALL OUT before too long, and we'll be at the point where we literally CAN'T maintain what we already have.

[Alps]

I'm fine with the tolls. I've driven all of I-95 and US 301 in NC. (:

[brownpelican]

Just saw one of the videos tracing the final route of I-485. At the end of the video, there's a stack interchange at I-85, but now that junction will become a turbine instead, correct?

That stack is at I-77/I-485 on the south side of Charlotte. The turbine interchange will be at the northeast side of town, where 485 currently ends at I-85 in a trumpet.

[cpzilliacus]

I'm fine with the tolls. I've driven all of I-95 and US 301 in NC. (:

I have driven enough of 301 in N.C. to know that I would much rather pay the tolls for an improved I-95 across the state.

[Alps]

I would much rather use other US highways or even state highways and traverse the state at my leisure. YMMV.

[cpzilliacus]

I would much rather use other US highways or even state highways and traverse the state at my leisure. YMMV.

If I have the time, and the road is right for a leisurely trip, so would I.

In North Carolina, two routes that come to mind are N.C. 12 on the Outer Banks, and on the other side of the state, the Blue Ridge Parkway.

But driving from Maryland to South Carolina when time is limited (I make that trip somewhat frequently), I will take I-95 every time.

[Beltway]

I'm fine with the tolls. I've driven all of I-95 and US 301 in NC. (:

I have driven enough of 301 in N.C. to know that I would much rather pay the tolls for an improved I-95 across the state.

I have driven all of US-301 through N.C. on one trip, and that is interesting once in a while, but I would much rather pay a toll on an improved I-95.  It needs at least 3 lanes each way in its entirety.

[DeaconG]

I think that they're figuring for those who make the trip rarely (once or twice a year) the tolls won't be that much of an inconvenience-they'll just go ahead and pay it; but for those who use I-95 on a regular basis for travel may be put out enough to do long-distance shunpiking (not just truckers...all those boys in the 82nd ABN/1st COSCOM at Ft. Bragg who use I-95 to travel to visit family out of state are NOT going to be happy, nor will the Marines at Cherry Point or Camp Lejeune).

And $19.20?  No, no...I could see $12-15 to start, but not close to $20 a pop...and no SunPass interoperability?  That's gonna yank the snowbirds' chain...

[1995hoo]

I tend to agree that I'd probably pay the toll, or I might just use the I-85-->Raleigh-->I-40 route to cut off part of it. (With respect to froggie's point about when you hit Wake Forest, I've never encountered traffic issues there and I can only speak from my own experience in terms of time. But I have no doubt traffic issues can happen there, just as they can around Raleigh....I especially remember how bad it was when the Beltline was still being widened between Wade and Glenwood Avenues. I worked off Millbrook Road at the time and used Wake Forest Road-->Beltline-->Wade Avenue-->I-40-->Durham Freeway for my commute.) I'm kind of in the same camp as cpzilliacus: 95% of my driving on I-95 through North Carolina is on trips to or from Florida to visit relatives and the idea of a leisurely detour doesn't really work–especially from my wife's point of view–because it means sacrificing the time in Florida. The other thing is, quite frankly, I get fed up rather quickly with traffic lights and slow local drivers when I'm on a longer trip.

From the standpoint of the principle behind the thing I don't object much to tolls when they're used to finance a new road or major improvements in lieu of other forms of financing. For example, it's well-known that the New Jersey Turnpike doesn't get any gas tax funding and relies on tolls and service area revenue. From my point of view, that's a great example of capitalism at its finest: If you drive on the road, you help pay for it; if you don't drive on the road, you don't pay for it. I assume I-95 in North Carolina, or in Virginia under the toll proposal here, wouldn't go quite that far on the financing, as I assume the state portion of the gas tax would still partially fund the road under the existing formula. The point made in the article in the first post in this thread about how lots of drivers (myself included) don't stop in North Carolina to buy gas is a valid concern (in my case, it's not due to price; it's due to vehicle range–I can get at least to Florence before I have to think about filling the tank) and with the federal portion of the gas tax becoming increasingly inadequate, it is important for states to find other methods of financing these things. I-95 desperately needs upgrading across BOTH of the Carolinas. I can stomach a toll a couple of times a year if the end result is a major improvement. I should also note that my opinion on this is also based on my understanding that federal approval to toll Interstates in this fashion is conditioned in part on the states' commitment not to use the toll revenue for anything other than improvements to, or maintenance of, the tolled road–so, in this example, toll revenue from I-95 couldn't be used to improve I-26 or to complete I-74. I'm not a huge fan of paying a toll that will finance some far-away roads I'll never use, and to me the sort of thing Delaware does on I-95 is a big middle-finger gesture to all the out-of-staters.

With all that said, back when I lived in North Carolina I sometimes found myself wondering if the state was perhaps too focused on building new roads instead of maintaining what they already had. I recall the state government making a big deal about their commitment to bringing a four-lane highway within some relatively small distance of every state resident. I remember thinking that I-85 from Durham to the Virginia state line, and I-95 around Lumberton in particular, was in such horrible shape that they needed to repair those before trying to build anything else. I don't spend nearly as much time down there now, so I don't know whether the same is still true as a general matter, but the only real change I've seen on I-95 since August of 1995 was the posting of 70-mph speed limits the following summer.

I think that they're figuring for those who make the trip rarely (once or twice a year) the tolls won't be that much of an inconvenience-they'll just go ahead and pay it; but for those who use I-95 on a regular basis for travel may be put out enough to do long-distance shunpiking (not just truckers...all those boys in the 82nd ABN/1st COSCOM at Ft. Bragg who use I-95 to travel to visit family out of state are NOT going to be happy, nor will the Marines at Cherry Point or Camp Lejeune).

And $19.20?  No, no...I could see $12-15 to start, but not close to $20 a pop...and no SunPass interoperability?  That's gonna yank the snowbirds' chain...

Regarding SunPass, I suspect most of the snowbirds have both E-ZPass and SunPass devices, so that likely won't pose much of an issue.

The article in the first post makes it sound to me like they're trying to figure out a way to make this somewhat similar–note I said "somewhat"–to the way the Maine Turnpike allows reasonably long toll-free drives for Maine residents while tagging the out-of-staters with the full toll. The toll-free distances won't be nearly as long on North Carolina's road, though.

[Alex]

$19.20 for the entire stretch will lead me to shunpike the vast majority of it. I might drive the completed eight-lane or whatever stretch just to see it once, but that would be it. From far enough away, Florida/Gulf Coast, etc., alternate routes are more viable to bypass stiff tolls. Further more, if Virginia tolled theirs at an equally high rate, the I-77/81 corridors, even with all the trucks, would become more appealing, with the added bonus of avoiding the congestion of DC by staying on I-81 to I-70 to make the turn eastward.

[1995hoo]

$19.20 for the entire stretch will lead me to shunpike the vast majority of it. I might drive the completed eight-lane or whatever stretch just to see it once, but that would be it. From far enough away, Florida/Gulf Coast, etc., alternate routes are more viable to bypass stiff tolls. Further more, if Virginia tolled theirs at an equally high rate, the I-77/81 corridors, even with all the trucks, would become more appealing, with the added bonus of avoiding the congestion of DC by staying on I-81 to I-70 to make the turn eastward.

Valid point about Virginia not having said anything yet about the rates. I wasn't thinking about that when I made my comments and it does indeed change my thought process, though I imagine that as a DC-area resident I'd probably opt for US-29 south to Greensboro and then either continue straight down US-220 to Rockingham or else head down to Charlotte to take I-77 and I-26. To me going around via Atlanta simply isn't worth it going to or from Florida unless there is a SERIOUS problem closer to the coast–it adds at least 200 miles, depending where I'm headed and which road I use to get to Atlanta, and the traffic around there can be maddening.

Your comment about the I-77/I-81 route does prompt me to wonder whether an unintended consequence of the tolling plans might well be to make I-81 through Virginia just flat-out intolerable. It's pretty close as it is. In my view the problem isn't the trucks per se, it's the large number of idiot car drivers who can't seem to deal with the trucks in a semi-rational manner or who gum up the left lane by trying to pass the trucks without increasing speed. I think a lot of truck drivers (not all, but a lot) tend to be among the most cooperative drivers out there if you try to work with them because they know the limitations of their vehicles and they know how it can be frustrating to get stuck behind them, but I think your average car driver has no concept of the issues truckers face on mountainous highways and of the importance of maintaining sufficient momentum when the truck approaches an uphill grade. Also, your average car driver doesn't have a clue about how much harder it is for truckers to see what's behind them and of how useful all the various flashing-your-lights signals are for truck drivers. I've found over the years that when I flash my lights to signal to them in the same way they do, they tend to acknowledge it and to move back out of the way more promptly than they might otherwise.

Anyway, I'm sure you know that about 10 years ago or so there was a PPTA proposal to widen I-81 to a quad-carriageway with the truck lanes being trucks and buses only (unlike the New Jersey Turnpike) and with the truck carriageway being subject to a toll. The deal never came to fruition in part because the bidder wanted a non-compete clause that would have prohibited any improvements to roads that could be reasonable shunpike routes (including US-29), but I wonder if tolling I-95 might well result in the I-81 proposals being resurrected in a different form. People in Virginia tend to focus on I-95 because it's the East Coast's main thru route, but in Virginia I-81 really needs improvements a lot more than I-95 does.

[Alex]

While vastly out of date - http://www.interstate-guide.com/i-081.html, I was aware of the tolling I-81 Truck lane concept. Need to add that to the queue to update...

You make a good point about the cars passing trucks, but its a two-fold problem. Not only is it a pain when one car lollygags in the left-hand lane at a mile or two per hour faster than the adjacent truck, but trucks are not known to pass each other with break neck speeds either. Often is the case on I-81 or I-77, with the hilly nature of both roads, where one truck will take one to two miles to complete a pass. Meanwhile the lemming queue of passenger cars forms behind the left-hand truck, creating moving bottlenecks. Perhaps additional truck passing lanes may be needed here and there to compensate should either freeway gain a significant amount of traffic.

Being based out of the DC area, it would be hard to avoid the bulk of tolls on the basis of time expenditure.

Valid point about Virginia not having said anything yet about the rates. I wasn't thinking about that when I made my comments and it does indeed change my thought process, though I imagine that as a DC-area resident I'd probably opt for US-29 south to Greensboro and then either continue straight down US-220 to Rockingham or else head down to Charlotte to take I-77 and I-26. To me going around via Atlanta simply isn't worth it going to or from Florida unless there is a SERIOUS problem closer to the coast–it adds at least 200 miles, depending where I'm headed and which road I use to get to Atlanta, and the traffic around there can be maddening.

Your comment about the I-77/I-81 route does prompt me to wonder whether an unintended consequence of the tolling plans might well be to make I-81 through Virginia just flat-out intolerable. It's pretty close as it is. In my view the problem isn't the trucks per se, it's the large number of idiot car drivers who can't seem to deal with the trucks in a semi-rational manner or who gum up the left lane by trying to pass the trucks without increasing speed. I think a lot of truck drivers (not all, but a lot) tend to be among the most cooperative drivers out there if you try to work with them because they know the limitations of their vehicles and they know how it can be frustrating to get stuck behind them, but I think your average car driver has no concept of the issues truckers face on mountainous highways and of the importance of maintaining sufficient momentum when the truck approaches an uphill grade. Also, your average car driver doesn't have a clue about how much harder it is for truckers to see what's behind them and of how useful all the various flashing-your-lights signals are for truck drivers. I've found over the years that when I flash my lights to signal to them in the same way they do, they tend to acknowledge it and to move back out of the way more promptly than they might otherwise.

Anyway, I'm sure you know that about 10 years ago or so there was a PPTA proposal to widen I-81 to a quad-carriageway with the truck lanes being trucks and buses only (unlike the New Jersey Turnpike) and with the truck carriageway being subject to a toll. The deal never came to fruition in part because the bidder wanted a non-compete clause that would have prohibited any improvements to roads that could be reasonable shunpike routes (including US-29), but I wonder if tolling I-95 might well result in the I-81 proposals being resurrected in a different form. People in Virginia tend to focus on I-95 because it's the East Coast's main thru route, but in Virginia I-81 really needs improvements a lot more than I-95 does.

[DeaconG]

Well, if they push it then the next time I go home to Philly it's I-95>I-26>I-77>I-85>US 301>MD 5>I-495>I-95 for the win...

[1995hoo]

....

Being based out of the DC area, it would be hard to avoid the bulk of tolls on the basis of time expenditure.

For me, the main thing is that going too far out of the way runs up against a low WAF: Wife Acceptance Factor. (The time I made a wrong turn in Colorado on the way back from a football trip to the University of Wyoming and took us 125 miles out of our way did NOT go over well with her....I enjoyed the scenery and seeing someplace new, but she quickly got sick of being in the car.) Like most of us on this forum, I'm always happy to go a different way just for the sake of the drive, as long as it's within reason of course, and I'll do up to about 100 extra miles. But my wife prefers just to get where we're going unless there's a traffic issue or some such.

I'll certainly concede that if we have to be somewhere by a particular time I'll almost always opt for the most direct route, even if the "particular time" is the following day. I suppose factors such as night driving at the end of a long day's drive factor in as well–I find that headlight glare bothers me more now than it did when I was in my 20s, and if I drive from home to Florida during the winter it means I hit Florida right around sunset and the lack of a wide median on I-95 down there makes the headlight glare all the more noticeable.

I think in the end most people will accept the tolls. The same thing happened with the Dulles Toll Road here in Fairfax County. Back when it opened in the mid-1980s everybody thought it was astoundingly expensive (max toll back then was 85¢ to go about 12 miles from the Beltway to the end of the road at VA-28), especially compared to the New Jersey Turnpike and other toll roads that were more familiar to everyone back then. But the alternate routes take so much longer that most people ultimately decided the toll was worth it. I'm sure I-95 tolling would be no different. I also expect a lot of people don't know of any other route–seriously! I'm always amazed at how many people think I-95 and the New Jersey Turnpike are the only route between DC and New York–and I think a lot of people would have a very serious bias against shunpiking via US-301 or other non-Interstate routes. (When I say "a lot of people" I mean the general public, not roadgeeks or people who drive for a living.)

[NJRoadfan]

With all that said, back when I lived in North Carolina I sometimes found myself wondering if the state was perhaps too focused on building new roads instead of maintaining what they already had. I recall the state government making a big deal about their commitment to bringing a four-lane highway within some relatively small distance of every state resident. I remember thinking that I-85 from Durham to the Virginia state line, and I-95 around Lumberton in particular, was in such horrible shape that they needed to repair those before trying to build anything else.

That section of I-85 was rebuilt a few years ago, its all fresh pavement now. VA and NC also resurfaced large portions of I-95 which I believe was funded by ARRA.

Coming from a state that has a perpetually broke transportation budget (but cheap gas tax), it amazes me how much road building NC is able to do.

[OracleUsr]

Well, if they push it then the next time I go home to Philly it's I-95>I-26>I-77>I-85>US 301>MD 5>I-495>I-95 for the win...

What about the Tydings Bridge and the Delaware Turnpike?

[DeaconG]

Well, if they push it then the next time I go home to Philly it's I-95>I-26>I-77>I-85>US 301>MD 5>I-495>I-95 for the win...

What about the Tydings Bridge and the Delaware Turnpike?

I can live with both, especially the Tydings since I only have to pay northbound (although since I've been on this forum and found out some of the Delaware Turnpike avoidance routes, I can bypass it too). 

But $20 through NC for God knows how long?  Especially if someone gets the bright idea to start using the tolls to do mass transit too? Nuh uh.

(Then again, I do live near Orlando and have a SunPass transponder, so you can take that with a dump truck of salt).   

[cpzilliacus]

According to TOLLROADSnews, USDOT/FHWA has allocated the one remaining "slot" in the Interstate System Reconstruction & Rehabilitation Pilot Program to North Carolina for I-95:

USDOT allocates open toll slot to NC/I-95, stiffs RI/I-95, AZ/I-15

[Alps]

According to real news sources, that's what I've heard as well.