North Houston Highway Improvement Project (project resumed March 2023)

[rte66man]

It's great how you say Mustang and Yukon are growing and the DOT didnt plan for it.

It doesn't take a genius to be able to forecast urban growth, the resulting traffic needs and make plans for it like planning where new highways might be needed in the future or existing roads expanded. Texas has usually been pretty good at that sort of thing. At least they were in the past.

In Wichita Falls what is currently Kell Freeway was just a surface street in the 1970's. They widened it to a divided street with a huge median and it stayed that way until the late 1980's when it was finally time to start building the freeway. They got the ROW secured many years earlier when it was easy and far less expensive to do so. Several super highway corridors in DFW were built-out in the same manner.

Various parties here in Oklahoma could have copied that approach, specifically in the case of Yukon and Mustang. They knew the growth was coming back in the 1990's when they could have started reserving room on S Sara Road. ODOT and OTA did a little bit of that on OK-4 just South of Bridge Creek going to the H.E. Bailey turnpike extension. They built a new pair of bridges over the Canadian River. But they didn't follow through on anything else. And even the OTA's spur going from I-44 to Norman stops miles short of I-35. It's all half-a$$ nonsense. BTW, I don't mean to make it sound like I'm letting the buck stop at them. The biggest jerks in the situation are the politicians giving ODOT, OTA or various city planners their marching orders, funding (or lack thereof).

I like the way you keep dragging out the Kilpatrick SW extension as an example of poor planning.  The plans are irrelevant. Any road map of the 60's will show you what ODOT wanted to do. As always, there wasn't even enough money to 'reserve' RoW given the competing priorities.  Unless ODOT was willing to step in and buy the land, they had no legal way to prevent the development. That ship has sailed. you should go ahead and bury that horse 6 feet under and leave him there.

You'd have a point if the type of bullshit that caused the road to be the way it is didn't still exist in Oklahoma. Can you name me a single initiative in the entire goddamn state where there is active planning for new freeway routes in the future? OKC showed some of the highest growth in the state and yet there are zero plans for a new freeway facility.

The OTA will likely push the Kickapoo south to connect with I-35 but that will be buying up properties, lawsuits, curves to avoid certain properties, etc that could be mitigated with better planning a long time ago.

OKC is going to end up in a very shitty situation unless some serious planning begins this decades to preserve ROW for future high capacity transportation corridors.

The US81 bypass of Chickasha comes immediately to mind. A 4 lane, fully limited access bypass along the west side.

The issue is MONEY.  I actually agree that RoW needs to be preserved. However, the funds allocated for roads is extremely inadequate to do that as well as keep up with existing improvements. Right or wrong, the general populace won't vote for increased taxes to pay for RoW preservation when their shitty 2-lane state highway needs shoulders and bridge replacements.

If we were to task ODOT/OTA with buying up RoW for a SE Norman bypass from wherever the Kickapoo extension connects over to OK9 by the casino, how much do you think that would cost today? Yes, it will cost more next year but that's not the point. The money just isn't there.

To follow the moderator's "gentle guidance" to get this back on topic, what chance is there for a change in the board makeup so the project could get off center and move forward?  Not as familiar with Houston politics as I used to be.

[Chris]

Where is all the congestion? 9 a.m. and only some local congestion around downtown. If you compare that with European cities, you'll see that almost the entire urban highway network will be jammed up at 9 a.m. on a Monday morning.

[Rothman]

Where is all the congestion? 9 a.m. and only some local congestion around downtown. If you compare that with European cities, you'll see that almost the entire urban highway network will be jammed up at 9 a.m. on a Monday morning.

Zoom in.  You're looking at it way zoomed out.

[hotdogPi]

Where is all the congestion? 9 a.m. and only some local congestion around downtown. If you compare that with European cities, you'll see that almost the entire urban highway network will be jammed up at 9 a.m. on a Monday morning.

Zoom in.  You're looking at it way zoomed out.

I-610 is much less congested than MA 128 normally is during rush hour.

[bwana39]

9:00 AM How is the traffic where you are at 10:00 AM?  Texas; being on central time shifts the day an hour earlier than on the east coast. That is the real point of comparison.
Most of Texas tends to work from seven AM or later to about 5:00PM. Most of the offices work 8-5 with an hour for lunch.  Bank lobbies tend to be 9-3 (or 9-4)

I agree that I-610  is not nearly as congested as even the closer in downtown loop or SHT (Beltway 8). It is however congested if you hit it at the wrong times.

[Plutonic Panda]

Update from CEW about this project retaining the funding per the updated 10 yr plan:

https://www.constructionequipmentguide.com/texas-transportation-commission-approves-10-year-plan/53999

[kernals12]

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/transportation/article/Harris-County-considering-pause-of-I-45-lawsuit-16622452.php

Harris County is considering pausing their lawsuit, sounds like they're willing to come to some kind of agreement with TxDOT.

[bwana39]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/houston-highway-project-sparks-debate-203458040.html

Just a new discussion

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/texas-news/houston-highway-project-sparks-debate-over-racial-equity/2824537/

[MaxConcrete]

Breaking news.... 
The Texas Transportation announced that FHWA has ended the pause on sections 3A and 3B, and authorized some pre-construction work to proceed on section 3C.

It was reported that extensive discussions between TxDOT and FHWA have taken place in the recent month and discussions are ongoing.

The project has been delayed at least 2 years due to the FHWA pause.

This discussion will be available in the video of today's meeting when posted, see the meeting opening remarks.

Direct  link to map for people who use browsers that require https: http://dallasfreeways.com/dfwfreeways/AARoads/NHHIP-sections.png

[kernals12]

Breaking news.... 
The Texas Transportation announced that FHWA has ended the pause on sections 3A and 3B, and authorized some pre-construction work to proceed on section 3C.

It was reported that extensive discussions between TxDOT and FHWA have taken place in the recent month and discussions are ongoing.

The project has been delayed at least 2 years due to the FHWA pause.

This discussion will be available in the video of today's meeting when posted, see the opening remarks.

Your photo isn't displaying. Also, I'm not seeing news of this anywhere?

Edit: I see it now,

So FHWA has let TxDOT go forward to some degree with every part of the downtown rebuild except for the part that would make urbanists happy?

[Plutonic Panda]

Yeah I'm pretty confused by this as well what's the point of even undertaking any of it if they're not gonna fix the bottleneck? Before TxDOT goes and spends billions they probably should make sure they can do the entire project.

[TXtoNJ]

Breaking news.... 
The Texas Transportation announced that FHWA has ended the pause on sections 3A and 3B, and authorized some pre-construction work to proceed on section 3C.

It was reported that extensive discussions between TxDOT and FHWA have taken place in the recent month and discussions are ongoing.

The project has been delayed at least 2 years due to the FHWA pause.

This discussion will be available in the video of today's meeting when posted, see the opening remarks.

Your photo isn't displaying. Also, I'm not seeing news of this anywhere?

Edit: I see it now,

So FHWA has let TxDOT go forward to some degree with every part of the downtown rebuild except for the part that would make urbanists happy?

No, all of 3 is a go - 3D is last because it's the most intensive and disruptive during construction.

[kernals12]

I'm still not seeing any one reporting that FHWA has lifted its freeze.

[abqtraveler]

I'm still not seeing any one reporting that FHWA has lifted its freeze.

What is your source that the FHWA has lifted its "pause" on Section 3 of the NHHIP?  I did a Google search can can't find anything to that effect.

[kernals12]

I'm still not seeing any one reporting that FHWA has lifted its freeze.

What is your source that the FHWA has lifted its "pause" on Section 3 of the NHHIP?  I did a Google search can can't find anything to that effect.

Maxconcrete

[MaxConcrete]

I'm still not seeing any one reporting that FHWA has lifted its freeze.

What is your source that the FHWA has lifted its "pause" on Section 3 of the NHHIP?  I did a Google search can can't find anything to that effect.

This was announced during the meeting of the Texas Transportation Commission, which is livestreamed.

There is probably not yet a news report because the Houston Chronicle transportation reporter was busy on the ship channel bridge report
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/transportation/article/Harris-County-to-spend-300M-more-to-fix-Ship-16663883.php

Why do people think I'm a liar? When was the last time I posted invalid information? (answer: never)

[Plutonic Panda]

I'm still not seeing any one reporting that FHWA has lifted its freeze.

What is your source that the FHWA has lifted its "pause" on Section 3 of the NHHIP?  I did a Google search can can't find anything to that effect.

Maxconcrete

He rarely posts anything except facts and news articles not sure what reason you'd have to doubt him. He is among the most credible posters on this forum, IMO.

[J N Winkler]

Direct link to Texas Transportation Commission meeting agendas, minutes, and media files for 2021

[Rothman]

I'm still not seeing any one reporting that FHWA has lifted its freeze.

What is your source that the FHWA has lifted its "pause" on Section 3 of the NHHIP?  I did a Google search can can't find anything to that effect.

Maxconcrete

He rarely posts anything except facts and news articles not sure what reason you'd have to doubt him. He is among the most credible posters on this forum, IMO.

Ad hominem.

[hotdogPi]

I'm still not seeing any one reporting that FHWA has lifted its freeze.

What is your source that the FHWA has lifted its "pause" on Section 3 of the NHHIP?  I did a Google search can can't find anything to that effect.

Maxconcrete

He rarely posts anything except facts and news articles not sure what reason you'd have to doubt him. He is among the most credible posters on this forum, IMO.

Ad hominem.

Looks like a legitimate argument. Compare a typical link posted by cpzilliacus and one posted by kernals12.

[kernals12]

I'm still not seeing any one reporting that FHWA has lifted its freeze.

What is your source that the FHWA has lifted its "pause" on Section 3 of the NHHIP?  I did a Google search can can't find anything to that effect.

This was announced during the meeting of the Texas Transportation Commission, which is livestreamed.

There is probably not yet a news report because the Houston Chronicle transportation reporter was busy on the ship channel bridge report
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/transportation/article/Harris-County-to-spend-300M-more-to-fix-Ship-16663883.php

Why do people think I'm a liar? When was the last time I posted invalid information? (answer: never)

It's called trust but verify. Don't get your panties in a twist.

[Rothman]

I'm still not seeing any one reporting that FHWA has lifted its freeze.

What is your source that the FHWA has lifted its "pause" on Section 3 of the NHHIP?  I did a Google search can can't find anything to that effect.

Maxconcrete

He rarely posts anything except facts and news articles not sure what reason you'd have to doubt him. He is among the most credible posters on this forum, IMO.

Ad hominem.

Looks like a legitimate argument. Compare a typical link posted by cpzilliacus and one posted by kernals12.

Ad hominem is never legitimate.  The argument should be attacked on its own merits.  Cpzilliacus isn't perfect and kernals12 can even manage a decent post once a year or so.

[kernals12]

Houston Public Media's reporting

https://www.houstonpublicmedia.org/articles/news/transportation/2021/11/30/414398/txdot-gets-the-ok-to-continue-limited-work-on-a-controversial-i-45-expansion/

[TXtoNJ]

I'm still not seeing any one reporting that FHWA has lifted its freeze.

What is your source that the FHWA has lifted its "pause" on Section 3 of the NHHIP?  I did a Google search can can't find anything to that effect.

This was announced during the meeting of the Texas Transportation Commission, which is livestreamed.

There is probably not yet a news report because the Houston Chronicle transportation reporter was busy on the ship channel bridge report
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/transportation/article/Harris-County-to-spend-300M-more-to-fix-Ship-16663883.php

Why do people think I'm a liar? When was the last time I posted invalid information? (answer: never)

It's called trust but verify. Don't get your panties in a twist.

Look, I know you're young, but possibly before you were born, MaxConcrete wrote a comprehensive book about Houston Freeways. There's probably nobody outside of TxDOT that has a more detailed knowledge of the system.

If he says it, it's as good as gold.

[kernals12]

How come they need that much clearance between the main lanes and the frontage roads?