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States ranked by traffic signal layouts

Started by SkyPesos, August 07, 2021, 07:59:30 PM

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SkyPesos

Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 09, 2021, 10:29:40 PM
Does any discussion about traffic signals not become a discussion of flashing yellow arrows anymore?
Oh yea, thanks for reminding me to move Ohio down a few spots on this rankings list for still actively installing lots of doghouses instead of FYAs in 2021  :-D.


andrepoiy

Quote from: jakeroot on August 09, 2021, 09:28:59 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on August 09, 2021, 09:05:27 PM
^ Are there any left turns that switch between fully protected and protected-permissive depending on time of day and/or traffic level. Could be done with an FYA signal; go to solid red instead of going to flashing yellow mode if you want it to be permissive only, then enable flashing yellow mode when traffic isn't as heavy.

Oh, absolutely. That's very common in some areas. Time-of-day phasing (TOD), it's usually called. When used just at the beginning, it's a leading pedestrian interval (LPI).

Definitely a huge advantage of the FYA signal.

I wish we had some of these here. Some areas need a protected signal during peak hours, but on weekends or late at night, it's simply a grand waste of time.

kphoger

Quote from: Scott5114 on August 09, 2021, 10:21:03 PM

Quote from: andrepoiy on August 09, 2021, 07:50:31 PM

Quote from: kphoger on August 09, 2021, 06:09:25 PM

Quote from: jakeroot on August 09, 2021, 05:49:23 PM
Fully-protected, I can't get behind at all without absolute certainty of it being necessary.

Can we just put you in charge of everything everywhere?  I hate fully protected signals too.

They are useful in some situations, for example, where sightlines are completely obstructed. Such as having an LRT or BRT in the middle, and therefore the stations obstructing sightlines.

Or when the oncoming traffic count is so high that you'll have no throughput without a protected phase. There's an intersection by my house that has a permissive signal to turn left from a road with a AADT of 27,000. It would have been cheaper to just put up a No Left Turn sign, since they're functionally equivalent.

But isn't there a difference between "fully protected" and "protected phase"?

Nobody is suggesting that all left turn arrows should disappear–just that the great majority of dedicated left turn arrow assemblies should disappear (except as modifiable to FYA).
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

jakeroot

Quote from: kphoger on August 10, 2021, 09:38:42 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 09, 2021, 10:21:03 PM
Or when the oncoming traffic count is so high that you'll have no throughput without a protected phase. There's an intersection by my house that has a permissive signal to turn left from a road with a AADT of 27,000. It would have been cheaper to just put up a No Left Turn sign, since they're functionally equivalent.

But isn't there a difference between "fully protected" and "protected phase"?

Nobody is suggesting that all left turn arrows should disappear–just that the great majority of dedicated left turn arrow assemblies should disappear (except as modifiable to FYA).

Bingo. Even the busiest roads have times of day where there is no need to wait for a green arrow. During absolutely peak hours, sure. But then even during peak hours, a two-secone all-red should allow at least two cars to turn at the end. Assuming you live in an area where drivers do that.

jakeroot

Quote from: andrepoiy on August 09, 2021, 11:21:24 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 09, 2021, 09:28:59 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on August 09, 2021, 09:05:27 PM
^ Are there any left turns that switch between fully protected and protected-permissive depending on time of day and/or traffic level. Could be done with an FYA signal; go to solid red instead of going to flashing yellow mode if you want it to be permissive only, then enable flashing yellow mode when traffic isn't as heavy.

Oh, absolutely. That's very common in some areas. Time-of-day phasing (TOD), it's usually called. When used just at the beginning, it's a leading pedestrian interval (LPI).

Definitely a huge advantage of the FYA signal.

I wish we had some of these here. Some areas need a protected signal during peak hours, but on weekends or late at night, it's simply a grand waste of time.

I can't recall where exactly, but I believe somewhere in the Vancouver area (maybe Richmond?) there is a left turn signal that is protected-permissive that operates separately from through traffic. Effectively allowing time of day phasing. But as far as I know, it doesn't have any special phasing like that. But it is capable of it.

JoePCool14

We have been getting lots more protected only lefts on major roads here, even when they are not justifiable for any reason. It's most annoying during off times in the late evening or early morning. But sometimes they are unnecessary even in "peak times". IDOT D1's dislike of FYAs is the problem, because they would allow a solution to the problem.

Ironically, one of the roads that I feel actually needs protected only lefts gets permissive-protected with short deceleration lanes and awful sight lines.

:) Needs more... :sombrero: Not quite... :bigass: Perfect.
JDOT: We make the world a better place to drive.
Travel Mapping | 60+ Clinches | 260+ Traveled | 8000+ Miles Logged

jakeroot

Quote from: JoePCool14 on August 10, 2021, 06:23:29 PM
We have been getting lots more protected only lefts on major roads here, even when they are not justifiable for any reason. It's most annoying during off times in the late evening or early morning. But sometimes they are unnecessary even in "peak times". IDOT D1's dislike of FYAs is the problem, because they would allow a solution to the problem.

Ironically, one of the roads that I feel actually needs protected only lefts gets permissive-protected with short deceleration lanes and awful sight lines.

Bit heartbreaking to hear, since I've long held the opinion that the Chicago area has some of the best signalization. Can you post some streetview examples of the needless protected-only signals?

SkyPesos

#32
Tier list based on what I see here so far:

A Tier
- California
- Minnesota
- Wisconsin

B Tier
- Illinois
- Kansas
- Missouri

C Tier
- Indiana
- Ohio
- Texas
- Utah

D Tier

F Tier

Amtrakprod

Ive already made a thread like this, but I'm happy to continue.

For new signals the best is obviously Massachusetts. The placement is unique to each intersection; and it's vast and clear


iPhone
Roadgeek, railfan, and crossing signal fan. From Massachusetts, and in high school. Youtube is my website link. Loves FYAs signals. Interest in Bicycle Infrastructure. Owns one Leotech Pedestrian Signal, and a Safetran Type 1 E bell.

hotdogPi

Quote from: SkyPesos on August 11, 2021, 12:00:07 AM
Tier list based on what I see here so far:

S Tier
- California
- Minnesota
- Wisconsin

A Tier
- Illinois
- Kansas
- Missouri

B Tier
- Indiana
- Ohio
- Texas
- Utah

C Tier

D Tier

F Tier

I've never gotten an S in any of my classes in school. Just because some Japanese video games have it doesn't mean it needs to exist here.
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

Big John

Quote from: 1 on August 11, 2021, 06:30:26 AM

I've never gotten an S in any of my classes in school. Just because some Japanese video games have it doesn't mean it needs to exist here.
In early elementary school, I got S's a lot, as the grading was S for satisfactory or U for unsatisfactory.

JoePCool14

Quote from: 1 on August 11, 2021, 06:30:26 AM
I've never gotten an S in any of my classes in school. Just because some Japanese video games have it doesn't mean it needs to exist here.

It's common at this point for tier lists to use S tier as the top tier. Meaning, it's really special, better than just an A. It means special (?), not satisfactory.

:) Needs more... :sombrero: Not quite... :bigass: Perfect.
JDOT: We make the world a better place to drive.
Travel Mapping | 60+ Clinches | 260+ Traveled | 8000+ Miles Logged

kphoger

Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

jakeroot

I have also never seen it. There's also not enough variation country-wide for more than 5 or 6 categories (A-F is fine).

Also: I'd put Wisconsin in B, alongside New Jersey. Nearside signals and occasional farside supplemental signals do not qualify one for a special god tier.

SkyPesos

Quote from: jakeroot on August 11, 2021, 11:34:11 AM
I have also never seen it. There's also not enough variation country-wide for more than 5 or 6 categories (A-F is fine).

Also: I'd put Wisconsin in B, alongside New Jersey. Nearside signals and occasional farside supplemental signals do not qualify one for a special god tier.
Removed the S tier. Though I'm keeping Wisconsin in A tier for now, as a lot of the above replies (including me) were very positive about Wisconsin's signals, and you praised Chicago's signals, which are similar to Wisconsin's layout except without FYAs.

Also, for your home state (Washington), I'll place it in B tier based on your examples of signals in the state, and from my personal experience there, though let me know if it should go up or down a tier.
Quote from: SkyPesos on August 11, 2021, 12:00:07 AM
Tier list based on what I see here so far:

A Tier
- California
- Minnesota
- Wisconsin

B Tier
- Illinois
- Kansas
- Missouri
- Washington

C Tier
- Indiana
- Ohio
- Texas
- Utah

D Tier

F Tier

NoGoodNamesAvailable

New York State should be D or debatably F. NYC could be B or C.

Scott5114

Quote from: 1 on August 11, 2021, 06:30:26 AM
I've never gotten an S in any of my classes in school. Just because some Japanese video games have it doesn't mean it needs to exist here.

Japanese video games have it because Japanese schools have it. It is an apparently rarely-given grade above A.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

jakeroot

#42
Here's my personal ranking, with explanations, without taking into account how intersections are operated (that would be another list entirely):

Tier 0: Phenomenal: California, Minnesota, Arizona, South Dakota, Idaho, Nevada, New Mexico
* these states are extremely consistent, with many supplemental signals at almost all intersections in the far left and far right corners, and mast arms are the norm for almost all intersections. Near-side signals are also quite common in these states, even when not necessarily required per the MUTCD (California primarily, but elsewhere as well). NV and ID are the newest additions to this level. NM as well.

Tier 1: Superb: Wisconsin, Illinois, New Jersey, Colorado, Hawaii, New Mexico
* Two supplemental signals and mast arms are common, if not standard, but there is some inconsistencies throughout the state in terms of placement strategies.

Tier 2: Great: Kansas, Iowa, Nebraska, Montana, North Dakota
* At least one supplemental signal per intersection is common throughout the state, and mast arms are common as well.

Tier 3: Satisfactory with honors: Washington, Missouri, Tennessee, Louisiana, Massachusetts, New York
* State-wide, pretty bog-standard, but there are individual municipalities that go above and beyond statewide requirements.

Tier 4: Satisfactory: Indiana, Ohio, Oregon, Texas, Utah
* Clean installations overall, but virtually no supplemental signals are to be found anywhere apart from when absolutely required. FHWA standard, if you will.

Tier 5: Ehhhh: Georgia
* There are some issues. Supplemental signals, even when ostensibly required, seem rare, and existing practices make the placement of supplemental signals difficult.

froggie

I'd rank New Mexico in the top 10, possibly in the top 5.  Very similar in my experience to Minnesota with the only notable difference being their use of horizontal overheads.  Granted, I haven't been to New Mexico since 2005 so it's possible things have changed.

Like Jake, I'd put Massachusetts in the middle of the pack.  Considerable use of both overhead and side mounted, but their design standards seem all over the place.

Vermont would be below normal, but not in the bottom tier.  The newer statewide standards are pretty decent but there's too much variability within the cities and most areas (including VTrans) make minimal use of side-mounted signals.

New Hampshire, to me, ranks higher than Vermont but still middle-of-the-pack at best.  Fairly consistent statewide and more side-mounted than Vermont but still not very many.  They also, almost exclusively, go protected-only for left turn signals, with very few protected-permitted locations.

New York State would be similar to New Hampshire in ranking.  While signal design is fairly consistent, there are very few side-mounted signals and a number of locations still make use of span wire.

kphoger

Is anyone else a little disconcerted to see people praising New Mexico for anything road-related?   :-P
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

webny99

Quote from: froggie on August 11, 2021, 02:18:48 PM
New York State would be similar to New Hampshire in ranking.  While signal design is fairly consistent, there are very few side-mounted signals and a number of locations still make use of span wire.

With regards to span wire, is that considered a bad thing? Sure, the signal heads can bob around a bit when it's windy, but it's otherwise a very efficient; I might even call it clever.

jakeroot

#46
Quote from: froggie on August 11, 2021, 02:18:48 PM
I'd rank New Mexico in the top 10, possibly in the top 5.  Very similar in my experience to Minnesota with the only notable difference being their use of horizontal overheads.  Granted, I haven't been to New Mexico since 2005 so it's possible things have changed.

I only kept it out of my "Tier 0" ranking because there seemed to be quite a few municipalities around New Mexico that weren't as consistent (not always a signal on the left, for instance). But I am moving it to Tier 0 now because, upon further inspection, the newest signals (last ten years or so) seem to be very good about placement and redundancy (this 2014 era intersection, for instance).

jakeroot

Quote from: kphoger on August 11, 2021, 02:29:44 PM
Is anyone else a little disconcerted to see people praising New Mexico for anything road-related?   :-P

They really are good at signalization. Are they known for being bad at stuff? Don't know a lot about NM.

Quote from: webny99 on August 11, 2021, 03:01:44 PM
Quote from: froggie on August 11, 2021, 02:18:48 PM
New York State would be similar to New Hampshire in ranking.  While signal design is fairly consistent, there are very few side-mounted signals and a number of locations still make use of span wire.

With regards to span wire, is that considered a bad thing? Sure, the signal heads can bob around a bit when it's windy, but it's otherwise a very efficient; I might even call it clever.

Span wire signals are not necessarily bad, but I think mast arm signals tend to win favor as they are sturdier, more reliable, and just appear a bit more modern. There's a certain cheapness to wire span that even the cleanest box-span intersection cannot escape.

hotdogPi

Quote from: jakeroot on August 11, 2021, 03:18:38 PM
They really are good at signalization. Are they known for being bad at stuff? Don't know a lot about NM.

This forum knows very little about New Mexico. However, they have bad pavement quality and hard-to-follow signage, even worse than the states we like to complain about.
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

SkyPesos

Quote from: jakeroot on August 11, 2021, 03:18:38 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 11, 2021, 02:29:44 PM
Is anyone else a little disconcerted to see people praising New Mexico for anything road-related?   :-P

They really are good at signalization. Are they known for being bad at stuff? Don't know a lot about NM.
From what I see on this forum, they're in the same tier as Oklahoma for worst signage quality.



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