Three MD Counties want to maybe join WV

[roadman65]

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/22/us/politics/maryland-counties-west-virginia-request.html

This is interesting. Just like CA spliting up it won't happen.

[KCRoadFan]

Someone should make an exit list for what the exit numbers on I-68 and I-70 would become if this actually happened.

[SkyPesos]

Someone should make an exit list for what the exit numbers on I-68 and I-70 would become if this actually happened.

I-68 would be intrastate, so its full length would be under a single set of exit numbers.

I-70 would enter WV twice, so assuming exit numbers are continued from the first WV segment (starting mileage at MM 15 in this second segment), the I-68 interchange would be Exit 16, and I-81 interchange be Exit 40. MD exit numbers would be its current exit numbers minus 42.

[KCRoadFan]

Another road-related hypothetical: of the state routes located in the three counties in question, do any of them have numbers that are already assigned to highways in another part of WV? If there are any potential duplicates, what should the new numbers be?

[michravera]

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/22/us/politics/maryland-counties-west-virginia-request.html

This is interesting. Just like CA spliting up it won't happen.

There is a huge political difference between splitting a state (or admitting a new one) and granting extra senators and possibly diluting the representation of each state in the House and merely moving territory of one state into another. If there are enough people in the affected area of Maryland to move some whole number of congressional districts, the people want to go to West Virginia, West Virginia wants them and Maryland is willing to send them away, all that happens is that all of the people in two states are better off and the rest of us are largely unaffected. Something like that could actually happen.

What will undoubtedly happen in California (as happened to my School Disrict 45 years ago) is that we will get one or two more layers of administration between state and county. We might have regions and cantons or departments. That's Mich, from City of Fremont, County of Alameda, Department of East, Region of Bay, State of California.

[1995hoo]

It'll never happen. Maryland would have to agree to let them go. They won't.

[thspfc]

Politics really do make people go insane. Maryland and WV are on opposite ends of most statistics, with MD consistently being in the best 10 while WV is usually in the worst 10. Though my political opinions don't really align with either state, I would rather live in Maryland 100 out of 100 times.

[NWI_Irish96]

1) No state is going to just agree to let a part of it go to another state

2) Even if it did, the change would benefit one party or the other in Congressional representation, so the other party would block it

[hotdogPi]

2) Even if it did, the change would benefit one party or the other in Congressional representation, so the other party would block it

This wouldn't lead to a change.

House: It's much less than one congressional district.
Senate: Both states are safe. The exception is Joe Manchin, but we don't know whether the change would benefit him or hurt him.
Presidency: Both states are safe. If 2020 had not happened yet, there would be the question of whether the addition to West Virginia would allow it to keep its fifth electoral vote, but that's no longer a possibility.

[KeithE4Phx]

It'll never happen. Maryland would have to agree to let them go. They won't.

Congress would also have to agree.  They won't.

[1995hoo]

It'll never happen. Maryland would have to agree to let them go. They won't.

Congress would also have to agree.  They won't.

I'm not so sure about that. Article IV, Section 3, provides as follows. It doesn't say anything about part of one state joining another existing state (as opposed to breaking off and becoming a new state).

New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.

[hbelkins]

Another road-related hypothetical: of the state routes located in the three counties in question, do any of them have numbers that are already assigned to highways in another part of WV? If there are any potential duplicates, what should the new numbers be?

None of the three-digit routes that I can think of, but "yes" on the two-digit Maryland routes. MD 51 could conceivably be connected with WV 51 (unless the states swap panhandles) via taking over WV 9 and then being routed to join existing WV 51. There are already two 68s in West Virginia (WV 68 being the old route of WV 2 between Ravenswood and Parkersburg) so something would have to be done with MD 68. There are other routes that would be duplicated, but I'm not familiar enough with Maryland's numbers to recall them all of the top of my head.

[Mapmikey]

For starters, West Virginia would drop a whole bunch of routes on the current Maryland primary system.

Many of the numbers 34-68 from the original Maryland designations in these 3 counties are still in use.  Most would be duplicative of an existing West Virginia designation.   The easiest thing to start would be to take the handful of routes that cross the current border and extend the WV designation over them (WV 7, 9 and 42 for example).

[Roadgeekteen]

2) Even if it did, the change would benefit one party or the other in Congressional representation, so the other party would block it

This wouldn't lead to a change.

House: It's much less than one congressional district.
Senate: Both states are safe. The exception is Joe Manchin, but we don't know whether the change would benefit him or hurt him.
Presidency: Both states are safe. If 2020 had not happened yet, there would be the question of whether the addition to West Virginia would allow it to keep its fifth electoral vote, but that's no longer a possibility.

Politically, it barely helps the republicans as West Virginia gains a mostly red part of Maryland which could help it in future redistricting. Also it would hurt Maryland republicans like Larry Hogan, not sure if he would have won in 2014 without the west.

[KeithE4Phx]

It'll never happen. Maryland would have to agree to let them go. They won't.

Congress would also have to agree.  They won't.

I'm not so sure about that. Article IV, Section 3, provides as follows. It doesn't say anything about part of one state joining another existing state (as opposed to breaking off and becoming a new state).

New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.

We're saying the same thing.  In order for a one or more counties to leave one state and join another, both states' legislatures and Congress must agree.  This is what is being requested by the Maryland and Oregon counties.  In any case, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for either to happen anytime soon.

[Roadgeekteen]

Also wouldn't Western MD suffer as they would lose out on tax revenue from the richer parts of Maryland? West Virginia ain't doing so well economically.

[Scott5114]

It'll never happen. Maryland would have to agree to let them go. They won't.

Congress would also have to agree.  They won't.

I'm not so sure about that. Article IV, Section 3, provides as follows. It doesn't say anything about part of one state joining another existing state (as opposed to breaking off and becoming a new state).

New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.

We're saying the same thing.  In order for a one or more counties to leave one state and join another, both states' legislatures and Congress must agree.  This is what is being requested by the Maryland and Oregon counties.  In any case, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for either to happen anytime soon.

No, you're not saying the same thing. The Constitution says that the consent of the legislatures and Congress is required when:
1) A new state is made within any existing state (i.e. a state is partitioned into an existing state and a new state). This does not apply because no new state is being made, only territory being transferred from one to the other.
2) A new state is made by merging two other states or from parts of two other states. This does not apply because no new state is being made, only territory being transferred from one to the other.

Also I seem to recall that 1995hoo is a lawyer (though not a constitutional lawyer, and not your lawyer), so they're probably right on this one.

[1995hoo]

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I don't know for sure whether I'm right on that. As a general matter, I don't think transfer of counties in the manner envisioned in this discussion has ever happened, so I doubt there's precedent. Virginia and West Virginia did have a dispute over the easternmost two counties in what is now the West Virginia eastern panhandle, but the Supreme Court decided it, and I believe Virginia's acceptance of that ruling was a condition of being readmitted to the Union. So that's a different scenario.

I was, as you suggest, just reading the plain language of the Constitution. Either way, I still think it's moot. Maryland won't let those counties go.

[hbelkins]

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I don't know for sure whether I'm right on that. As a general matter, I don't think transfer of counties in the manner envisioned in this discussion has ever happened, so I doubt there's precedent. Virginia and West Virginia did have a dispute over the easternmost two counties in what is now the West Virginia eastern panhandle, but the Supreme Court decided it, and I believe Virginia's acceptance of that ruling was a condition of being readmitted to the Union. So that's a different scenario.

I was, as you suggest, just reading the plain language of the Constitution. Either way, I still think it's moot. Maryland won't let those counties go.

Speaking only in terms of road maintenance, Maryland ought to be happy to jettison those counties. Think how much they'd save on snow removal and on maintenance of the Cumberland viaduct.

[triplemultiplex]

Funny how you never hear this kind of semi-serious stupidity in the other direction with a place like St. Louis threatening to break off and join Illinois or El Paso County, Texas, threatening to join New Mexico.  Very telling.

[1995hoo]

Funny how you never hear this kind of semi-serious stupidity in the other direction with a place like St. Louis threatening to break off and join Illinois or El Paso County, Texas, threatening to join New Mexico.  Very telling.

I recall Killington wanted to secede from Vermont and join New Hampshire. Vermont said no way; New Hampshire's reaction was, "We'd love to have them."

[KeithE4Phx]

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I don't know for sure whether I'm right on that. As a general matter, I don't think transfer of counties in the manner envisioned in this discussion has ever happened, so I doubt there's precedent.

There is in a way, but the transfer was from a territory to a state.  What is now Clark County NV was originally part of the Arizona Territory when it was created in 1863.  Nevada became a state a year later.  It was given to Nevada in 1866, although Arizona fought it for several years thereafter.  Being a territory, Arizona really couldn't say much.

[Evan_Th]

Funny how you never hear this kind of semi-serious stupidity in the other direction with a place like St. Louis threatening to break off and join Illinois or El Paso County, Texas, threatening to join New Mexico.  Very telling.

What makes you call it stupidity?

[Roadgeekteen]

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I don't know for sure whether I'm right on that. As a general matter, I don't think transfer of counties in the manner envisioned in this discussion has ever happened, so I doubt there's precedent.

There is in a way, but the transfer was from a territory to a state.  What is now Clark County NV was originally part of the Arizona Territory when it was created in 1863.  Nevada became a state a year later.  It was given to Nevada in 1866, although Arizona fought it for several years thereafter.  Being a territory, Arizona really couldn't say much.

Imagine if Clark County was part of Arizona what ramifications it could have. Nevada basically becomes another Wyoming while Arizona becomes a lot more powerful of a state.

[NWI_Irish96]

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I don't know for sure whether I'm right on that. As a general matter, I don't think transfer of counties in the manner envisioned in this discussion has ever happened, so I doubt there's precedent.

There is in a way, but the transfer was from a territory to a state.  What is now Clark County NV was originally part of the Arizona Territory when it was created in 1863.  Nevada became a state a year later.  It was given to Nevada in 1866, although Arizona fought it for several years thereafter.  Being a territory, Arizona really couldn't say much.

That has happened several times. The northern boundary of the Indiana territory was a line that went through the southernmost point of Lake Michigan, but upon statehood that boundary got moved north 10 miles so the state could have more of a lakeshore than a singular point.