Right on Red Arrow

[doogie1303]

So just out of curiosity, how many states allow "Right on Red Arrow" movement?

I was just out in Washington state for about two weeks and on several occasions got honked waiting at a light with a right red arrow. Coming from a state that does not allow that movement, I was confused on why people were honking and started thinking about "what the heck are they teaching them in drivers ed?". Come to find out i read online that WA allows for right turn on red arrow.

So here's my question, how are people from out of state supposed to know if the current state they are driving in allows for or doesn't allow this movement? There are no signs posting this movement and it seems counter intuitive to the meaning of a red arrow. 

[1995hoo]

I know Virginia allows it. Left on a red arrow, too, though I haven't encountered that situation. Our statute allowing turns on red doesn't distinguish between a red arrow or a red ball. The instructional booklet the DMV gives people who are learning to drive incorrectly states it's illegal to turn on a red arrow, though.

I think the answer is that if you don't know, you don't go, because after all nothing requires you to turn on red when it's permitted regardless of what sort of light you're facing (arrow or ball). I can think of intersections where turns on red are allowed but where I hardly ever turn on red because I feel something obstructs my view.

[jeffandnicole]

This is often talked about and debated on various traffic forums.

If every state listed all their traffic laws on signs, the signs would be 500 feet tall with itty-bitty fonts, or you would have 1 sign every foot for miles on end. 

It may seem unusual for you, but obviously not for those that are in the state.  Likewise, does your former state have signs stating motorists can't turn on a red arrow?

In NJ, I've only seen right red arrows at an intersection where the only possible movement is to turn right.  it's widely assumed motorists can't turn right on a red arrow, but there are no laws with NJ's state statutes specifying such prohibition (in fact, there's no laws pertaining to a red arrow whatsoever; just a red lens). To make it clear, every red right arrow light I've seen is accompanied with a 'No Turn On Red' sign.  There was one instance I'm familiar with where right turns were permitted; in that case a sign stating "Right Turns On Red Permitted After Stop" was posted.  The intersection was revised and the right turn movement is now controlled via a 'Yield' sign.

[TEG24601]

So just out of curiosity, how many states allow "Right on Red Arrow" movement?

I was just out in Washington state for about two weeks and on several occasions got honked waiting at a light with a right red arrow. Coming from a state that does not allow that movement, I was confused on why people were honking and started thinking about "what the heck are they teaching them in drivers ed?". Come to find out i read online that WA allows for right turn on red arrow.

So here's my question, how are people from out of state supposed to know if the current state they are driving in allows for or doesn't allow this movement? There are no signs posting this movement and it seems counter intuitive to the meaning of a red arrow.

Washington treats a ball and arrow as the same signal, with the arrow used to reduce the need for extra signs.  Washington (along with Oregon and Michigan) allow left-turns from a two way street onto a one way (going left), unless there is a sign to prohibit it.  One way streets include freeway/highway onramps.  Unfortunately, few people know about this, otherwise, some places might have better traffic movements.

[opspe]

In Oregon there are some cases where it's forbidden by a specific sign: "Right on Green Arrow Only".  See here, where it appears twice in the same intersection:

https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.5182547,-122.6926469,3a,48.5y,224.06h,92.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBrFowWN3R8KQ8kIOV-ND7g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

[mrsman]

The situations described in this thread lead me to believe there should be one uniform set of rules for driving in this country.  In most states, you cannot turn right on red arrow, you cannot make a left on red from a two-way to a one-way, and you can make a left on red from a one-way to a one-way.  This should be the default rule nationwide.  If specific states, localities, or intersections justify an exception, it should be signed for the exception.

[ekt8750]

Delaware has flashing red arrows for both right and left turns which permit turning after coming to a full stop.

[jakeroot]

The situations described in this thread lead me to believe there should be one uniform set of rules for driving in this country.  In most states, you cannot turn right on red arrow, you cannot make a left on red from a two-way to a one-way, and you can make a left on red from a one-way to a one-way.  This should be the default rule nationwide.  If specific states, localities, or intersections justify an exception, it should be signed for the exception.

But isn't that uniformity for the sake of uniformity? The only real issue posed by inconsistent rules between states is, when those who are from states who don't permit said movements, visit states that do, they can hold up traffic (though, other drivers will certainly vocalize their discontent). In the reverse scenario, unless the driver from out of state is at the front of a line of cars, they can't make said movements anyway. And, once they realize that traffic isn't moving despite the otherwise clear roadway, they'll probably catch onto the situation.

[RobbieL2415]

CT allows it, but if its a dual right turn, turning on red is only allowed from the rightmost lane.

[jeffandnicole]

The situations described in this thread lead me to believe there should be one uniform set of rules for driving in this country.  In most states, you cannot turn right on red arrow, you cannot make a left on red from a two-way to a one-way, and you can make a left on red from a one-way to a one-way.  This should be the default rule nationwide.  If specific states, localities, or intersections justify an exception, it should be signed for the exception.

Technically, the rule is red means stop. Anything else is an exception. Thus, even though 45 states permit lefts on red from a one way to a one way, that is the exception and those 45 states should be the ones requiring such signage.  And yes, even though all 50 states permit right turns on red, that is an exception to the otherwise required red means stop.

[jakeroot]

CT allows it, but if its a dual right turn, turning on red is only allowed from the rightmost lane.

That seems so random to me. Wouldn't that result in lop-sided use of both turn lanes, because drivers instinctively go for the right-most turn lane (otherwise, they know they can't go until green)?

[jeffandnicole]

CT allows it, but if its a dual right turn, turning on red is only allowed from the rightmost lane.

That seems so random to me. Wouldn't that result in lop-sided use of both turn lanes, because drivers instinctively go for the right-most turn lane (otherwise, they know they can't go until green)?

That's how most states work it. Doesn't really seem to be much of an issue.

[Brandon]

CT allows it, but if its a dual right turn, turning on red is only allowed from the rightmost lane.

Illinois treats a red right arrow and a red ball the same.  RTOR is allowed for both unless prohibited by a no turn on red sign.  Also, dual right turn lanes can be a mixture.  Some are no turn on red, some are right turn on red from right lane only, and some are right turn on red from both lanes.

And example of each:

No Turn On Red - Both Lanes
Right Turn On Red From Right Lane Only
Right Turn On Red Allowed From Both Lanes (No Sign)

[jakeroot]

CT allows it, but if its a dual right turn, turning on red is only allowed from the rightmost lane.

That seems so random to me. Wouldn't that result in lop-sided use of both turn lanes, because drivers instinctively go for the right-most turn lane (otherwise, they know they can't go until green)?

That's how most states work it. Doesn't really seem to be much of an issue.

Still not entirely sure why it's a rule at all. Is it for visibility?

[1995hoo]

CT allows it, but if its a dual right turn, turning on red is only allowed from the rightmost lane.

That seems so random to me. Wouldn't that result in lop-sided use of both turn lanes, because drivers instinctively go for the right-most turn lane (otherwise, they know they can't go until green)?

That's pretty much exactly what happens here. The second lane from the right sees probably 85% less use at most intersections for precisely that reason (and VDOT is religious about signing the restriction).

[RobbieL2415]

CT allows it, but if its a dual right turn, turning on red is only allowed from the rightmost lane.

That seems so random to me. Wouldn't that result in lop-sided use of both turn lanes, because drivers instinctively go for the right-most turn lane (otherwise, they know they can't go until green)?

That's how most states work it. Doesn't really seem to be much of an issue.

Still not entirely sure why it's a rule at all. Is it for visibility?

Possibly.  It might also be that way to prevent crossover accidents.  Not everybody turns right into the  rightmost lane.

[Revive 755]

Illinois treats a red right arrow and a red ball the same.  RTOR is allowed for both unless prohibited by a no turn on red sign.  Also, dual right turn lanes can be a mixture.  Some are no turn on red, some are right turn on red from right lane only, and some are right turn on red from both lanes.

I think for Illinois there is also some dependence on the IDOT District.  For the Chicago District the default seems to be right turn on red from the right lane only but for the Springfield District the default seems to be making both no lanes no turn on red as soon as a dual right is installed.

Also, per the Illinois Supplement to the MUTCD, if rights on a red arrow are to be prohibited, the sign used is supposed to read 'no turn on red arrow'.
_______________________________________________________________________

As for the original topic, Missouri supposedly allows rights on red arrows unless signed otherwise.

[1995hoo]

CT allows it, but if its a dual right turn, turning on red is only allowed from the rightmost lane.

That seems so random to me. Wouldn't that result in lop-sided use of both turn lanes, because drivers instinctively go for the right-most turn lane (otherwise, they know they can't go until green)?

That's how most states work it. Doesn't really seem to be much of an issue.

Still not entirely sure why it's a rule at all. Is it for visibility?

Possibly.  It might also be that way to prevent crossover accidents.  Not everybody turns right into the  rightmost lane.

As valid as that concern may be, wouldn't it also be true for right turns on green arrows as well? If people are going to turn into the wrong lane, they're going to do it regardless of the light color, and I know I routinely see people cutting across even when there's someone turning from an adjacent lane on a green light.

[roadfro]

Nevada Revised Statutes does not outlaw right turns on a red arrow–the RTOR law makes only makes mention of a steady red signal indication and doesn't specifically address red arrows. However, in practice, red arrows are typically only used at locations with dual dedicated right turn lanes and are accompanied with "No turn on red" signs that effectively outlaw a RTOR maneuver. I can only think of one signalized right turn location in the state which doesn't outlaw the RTOR, and it's on a single right turn lane here in Reno (WB Peckham Ln at Kietzke Ln) that uses a circular red but green and yellow arrows.

MUTCD conventions disallow right turn on red arrow (or any turn on any red arrow) unless another traffic control device allows it. This makes more sense to me. For RTOR, why use a red arrow if you can use the circular red with green/yellow arrows for the protected turn? Then the right red arrow would retain the prohibitive rules as left red arrows.

[Ace10]

MUTCD conventions disallow right turn on red arrow (or any turn on any red arrow) unless another traffic control device allows it. This makes more sense to me. For RTOR, why use a red arrow if you can use the circular red with green/yellow arrows for the protected turn? Then the right red arrow would retain the prohibitive rules as left red arrows.

There are a couple reasons why I like all-arrow signals. First off, the arrow immediately tells you the signal controls only that movement and no others. In some states I've seen left turn signals with red circulars and it looks very confusing next to green circulars when the (sometimes non-existent) "LEFT TURN SIGNAL" sign is hard to see; case in point, New Orleans along Canal Street where there is a lot going on - the less confusion there is, the better! Secondly, when you are in a turn lane about to make a turn and your side of the intersection has all red signals, when your signal has a red arrow, you know which one to focus on to know when to turn. The through movement might get a green, but your arrow may stay red to allow peds to cross. This also avoids the confusing circular green controlling the through movement next to a circular red controlling the right- or left-turn movement.

I love the left-on-red from two-way to one-way law in Oregon and Washington and use it anytime I can, and they'll have to pry it from my cold dead hands if the law is changed. That said, I wish knowledge, or at least willingness to perform, the movement was much more widespread. I've only seen others make the movement about five or so times, and I know people have seen me do it, and I hope they do a double-take and then look at their driver's manual to discover they too can make the move!

I think turns on red arrow laws are among the most inconsistent across the entire country, with probably about half the states permitting it and the other half prohibiting it. I believe a great compromise (and one I think I've suggested on this board elsewhere) would be to introduce a flashing red arrow signal to let drivers know they can turn on red. A solid red arrow would mean no turn on red. This should hopefully be very self-explanatory to all drivers; they already know a flashing circular signal means stop, and then proceed when clear. A flashing red arrow means the exact same thing - yield to drivers and pedestrians who have the right-of-way, and then make your turn when clear. This also allows drivers in states that allow lefts-on-red from two-way streets to one-way streets to more clearly indicate to drivers that the turn is in fact legal, which may result in more drivers making the turn!

[jeffandnicole]

CT allows it, but if its a dual right turn, turning on red is only allowed from the rightmost lane.

That seems so random to me. Wouldn't that result in lop-sided use of both turn lanes, because drivers instinctively go for the right-most turn lane (otherwise, they know they can't go until green)?

That's how most states work it. Doesn't really seem to be much of an issue.

Still not entirely sure why it's a rule at all. Is it for visibility?

I could also see a reasoning that the right-hand lane is also the slow lane, so when motorists turn right on red from the right lane only they are entering the slow lane (assuming they enter the correct lane). This allows motorists in the cross street thru right lane a chance to merge over if needbe. 

[jakeroot]

I could also see a reasoning that the right-hand lane is also the slow lane, so when motorists turn right on red from the right lane only they are entering the slow lane (assuming they enter the correct lane). This allows motorists in the cross street thru right lane a chance to merge over if needbe.

Good theory, but I think it's a little pensive (no offence or anything).

There is only one right turn I can think of around me (with two or more lanes) that has a restriction on which lanes can turn right (the rest either permit all lanes to turn, or none -- this includes all of the intersections that I'm familiar with in BC). In this case, lane 1 cannot turn right, but lanes 2 and 3 can:

[hbelkins]

I have no idea whether or not Kentucky allows a right turn on a red arrow. If it doesn't then I am a frequent violator, as I make no distinction between a red ball and a red arrow when driving.

I also will always make a right turn on red from a turn lane that is NOT the rightmost unless a sign specifically prohibits it. I do this frequently on the ramp from southbound I-75 to US 60 in Lexington, as my usual next movement is a left turn into the Walmart at that location.

[myosh_tino]

... I make no distinction between a red ball and a red arrow when driving.

Out of curiosity, is your thinking the same for a left red arrow?

[jakeroot]

... I make no distinction between a red ball and a red arrow when driving.

Out of curiosity, is your thinking the same for a left red arrow?

Where would it make a difference?