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Bloomberg: The Rules That Made U.S. Roads So Deadly (during the pandemic)

Started by wanderer2575, April 04, 2021, 09:38:52 AM

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wanderer2575

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-03-30/five-ways-to-make-u-s-streets-less-deadly?utm_source=pocket-newtab

Quote
Let's talk about U.S. road design rules first.  They prioritize one thing: speed.  A design manual known as the "Green Book"  plays a leading role.  Never heard of it?  That's because it's written without public input by traffic engineers at the American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials (AASHTO).  The Green Book has been used for decades by the federal government, all 50 states, and countless municipalities.  In general, it requires lanes that are too wide, which encourages cars to drive faster, and practically ignores pedestrians and bikers.

Fire codes, too, mandate overly wide streets, requiring 20 feet of unobstructed path for new or significantly improved streets.  But city residents can't get involved in drafting fire codes, either.  They are primarily drafted by an organization of building code officials that recently sued a group who put the code online, so people could actually read it.  Despite efforts in some cities to reduce fire-code-mandated street widths, these codes dominate street design nationally.

And then there is the Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices (MUTCD), which governs signalization and, more importantly, speed limits.  This manual is published by the Federal Highway Administration, a federal agency, which is a better alternative to the private rule-making of the Green Book and fire codes.  But in one big way, it is deeply problematic: The MUTCD recommends setting speed limits that match the 85th percentile of actual free-flowing traffic, rounded up to the nearest 5 miles per hour.  In effect, drivers breaking the law by speeding justifies raising speed limits even more.  The MUTCD also standardizes signaling and pavement markings that often prioritize cars over all other road users.

Suggestions for improvements follow in the article.

Opine as you will, I have to note that Michigan's 2020 count of road-related deaths was about the same as 2019's despite significantly lower traffic volumes, especially given the lockdown months.

Proceed with discussion.



hotdogPi

As someone who crosses busy streets quite often as a pedestrian, one thing that would help is medians at intersections. I typically don't wait for the walk signal; I go when it's clear. With a median, I only have to cross one direction at a time, and I almost never have to wait more than half a cycle to cross each half.

Where I live, there is no grid, so signals can't be timed easily. To get a greater percentage of greens, there are some intersections where left turns should be banned, making it a 2-phase signal. This also has the advantage of fewer crashes for both vehicles and pedestrians.
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

cpzilliacus

An especially curvy part of I-495 in Montgomery County, Maryland seems to have had an increase in serious truck crashes, especially in the rain, since the COVID19 pandemic got going.  So far, I have seen no formal data about this, but it should be out soon.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

behogie230

So they're implying AASHTO, FHWA and the like should take public input for something that most people know nothing about? Honestly the majority of respondents would probably think wider and faster is better.

vdeane

Quote from: behogie230 on April 04, 2021, 10:55:44 AM
So they're implying AASHTO, FHWA and the like should take public input for something that most people know nothing about? Honestly the majority of respondents would probably think wider and faster is better.
Don't be so sure.  Despite the fact that most people speed, people also tend to believe the people these days drive "too fast".  The attitude seems to be "slower for thee but not for me".

Also keep in mind the perception that "if you set the speed limit for X, everyone will just go X+Y".  It's been debunked many times, but most people still believe it.

NYSDOT gets requests all the time from across the state where people and municipalities are seeking to lower speed limits.  Many of these make the news, but not all of them do.

(personal opinion)
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Occidental Tourist

So many things wrong with this article.  First, I'm a lawyer just like the author, but I would never purport that my opinion on road design trumps that of an engineer.  Second, this paragraph: "AASHTO, the code councils and the federal agency writing the MUTCD are dominated by white, male engineers who are trained to prioritize driver speed. We need women, people of color, transit users and bike-pedestrian advocates to bring new perspectives and cultural competencies into the conversation."

Lawyers think they know everything.  Law professors even more so.  Adding a gender and ethnicity slant to it is the icing on the cake.

Max Rockatansky

Most places out west aside from the likes of Seattle, Portland and San Francisco you really aren't going to see a huge pedestrian demand.  I know in the case of San Francisco the City went as far as shutting down certain roads so pedestrians would have greater accessibly and enough room to stay six feet apart.  Most of the newer cities like Phoenix and Las Vegas are designed in a way that getting around on foot isn't practical. 

Mccojm

Quote from: vdeane on April 04, 2021, 12:08:37 PM
Quote from: behogie230 on April 04, 2021, 10:55:44 AM
So they're implying AASHTO, FHWA and the like should take public input for something that most people know nothing about? Honestly the majority of respondents would probably think wider and faster is better.
Don't be so sure.  Despite the fact that most people speed, people also tend to believe the people these days drive "too fast".  The attitude seems to be "slower for thee but not for me".

Also keep in mind the perception that "if you set the speed limit for X, everyone will just go X+Y".  It's been debunked many times, but most people still believe it.

NYSDOT gets requests all the time from across the state where people and municipalities are seeking to lower speed limits.  Many of these make the news, but not all of them do.

(personal opinion)

NYSDOT needs to raise speed limits on Long Island... max speed is 55mph, you do that in the right lane you're getting killed, do 80 mph in left lane and it isn't fast enough. Average speed here feels like at least 70 mph on all highways including the southern and northern parkways full of winding turns and lack of shoulders. Nobody does the speed limit unless you're looking to cause an accident and road rage here.

The article states "The MUTCD also standardizes signaling and pavement markings that often prioritize cars over all other road users."  Well yeah, the overwhelmingly vast majority of road users are vehicles, why would pedestrian and bicycle take precedence when they make up such a small percentage of road users? There's sidewalks and pedestrian crossings, there's shoulder widths and bike lanes already covered in the MUTCD and highway design . Do they want a separate urban roadway shared use plan instead?
My expressed thoughts do not reflect those of NYSDOT, other associated agencies or firms.  Do not take anything I say as official unless it is released by said agencies.

NYSDOT R10 Long Island construction Group since 2013.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: Occidental Tourist on April 04, 2021, 02:27:43 PM
So many things wrong with this article.  First, I'm a lawyer just like the author, but I would never purport that my opinion on road design trumps that of an engineer.  Second, this paragraph: "AASHTO, the code councils and the federal agency writing the MUTCD are dominated by white, male engineers who are trained to prioritize driver speed. We need women, people of color, transit users and bike-pedestrian advocates to bring new perspectives and cultural competencies into the conversation."

Lawyers think they know everything.  Law professors even more so.  Adding a gender and ethnicity slant to it is the icing on the cake.

It can also be noted that the manual has countless options where a reduction in speed should be posted or utilized, and almost nothing that encourages faster speeds.

The manual is also expanding their bike and ped guidance extensively, yet the bike people seem to have a moving target where they will never be satisfied with what's in the manual, even when it was their very suggestions that got adopted.

Quote from: 1 on April 04, 2021, 09:46:11 AM
Where I live, there is no grid, so signals can't be timed easily. To get a greater percentage of greens, there are some intersections where left turns should be banned, making it a 2-phase signal. This also has the advantage of fewer crashes for both vehicles and pedestrians.

So...New Jersey jughandles?

hotdogPi

Quote from: jeffandnicole on April 04, 2021, 03:29:42 PM
Quote from: 1 on April 04, 2021, 09:46:11 AM
Where I live, there is no grid, so signals can't be timed easily. To get a greater percentage of greens, there are some intersections where left turns should be banned, making it a 2-phase signal. This also has the advantage of fewer crashes for both vehicles and pedestrians.
So...New Jersey jughandles?

There are several ways to do it. New Jersey jughandles work, as do other possibilities (such as dedicated median U-turns).
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

wanderer2575

Quote from: behogie230 on April 04, 2021, 10:55:44 AM
So they're implying AASHTO, FHWA and the like should take public input for something that most people know nothing about? Honestly the majority of respondents would probably think wider and faster is better.

I look to the learned experts to establish absolute limits, be it on speed, minimum yellow light lengths, building occupancy, elevator loads, ideal daily fiber intake, whatever.  I see no problem taking public opinion into consideration in determining if lower allowable limits should be set.

Quote from: Occidental Tourist on April 04, 2021, 02:27:43 PM
Adding a gender and ethnicity slant to it is the icing on the cake.

I agree the author totally derailed his argument into irrelevancies.

hbelkins

I had to do a double-take to see that the source was not streetsblog.

For the longest time, Kentucky's fatalities were lower last year than the prior year, but something happened to make the fatality rate end up higher than 2019. No one seems to have a good guess as to why.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

Scott5114

Quote from: Occidental Tourist on April 04, 2021, 02:27:43 PM
So many things wrong with this article.  First, I'm a lawyer just like the author, but I would never purport that my opinion on road design trumps that of an engineer.  Second, this paragraph: "AASHTO, the code councils and the federal agency writing the MUTCD are dominated by white, male engineers who are trained to prioritize driver speed. We need women, people of color, transit users and bike-pedestrian advocates to bring new perspectives and cultural competencies into the conversation."

Lawyers think they know everything.  Law professors even more so.  Adding a gender and ethnicity slant to it is the icing on the cake.

I mean, I believe we do need to bring the perspective of women and people of color into the picture. But the way to do that is to encourage women and people of color to become educated as highway engineers.
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CoreySamson

Honestly, I wonder what percentage of speed-related car crashes involve drivers going over the limit. If it's a large percentage, perhaps we need greater enforcement of the limits or even greater punishment for breaking them. If it's not, then look at other factors, such as texting, automobile infotainment systems, and social factors before changing the limit. Maybe the stress during the pandemic of losing a job or a loved one caused people to not pay much attention to the road. You can't just chalk it all up to speed.

I've said it before and I'll say it again; the speed limit doesn't determine the dangerousness of a situation, it's the environment. Driving 55 on I-610 in Houston is much more dangerous than driving 85 on TX-130 because there's more traffic, more merging, and more distractions for drivers on 610. Dropping the speed limit on 130 to 55 wouldn't probably help out that much because the drivers would still go as fast as they were going before, and the law followers would create unsafe differences in speed on the highway which could lead to crashes.

We also need much better driver's education, and I'd argue it should be mandatory that drivers should take a defensive driving class every so often. In particular, I want to see steps taken to curb distracted driving; that is probably why many deaths on the road happen in the first place.
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ran4sh

Also there's the fact that a lot of speed limits are set too low, such that a crash that occurs at normal speed is counted as over the limit.
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jamess

Here is what we know:
-Vehicles are safer than theyve ever been
-Miles traveled was very low last year
-And yet fatalities are almost universally up around the country.

That does indicate that the rules and guides and not working and need to be changed.

Whatever AASHTO, FHWA, and NHTSA have been doing is clearly not working, unless we want to define working as 40,000 dead Americans every year. So yeah, maybe getting outside opinions is much needed.

hotdogPi

Quote from: jamess on April 06, 2021, 11:38:30 AM
Here is what we know:
-Vehicles are safer than theyve ever been
-Miles traveled was very low last year
-And yet fatalities are almost universally up around the country.

That does indicate that the rules and guides and not working and need to be changed.

Whatever AASHTO, FHWA, and NHTSA have been doing is clearly not working, unless we want to define working as 40,000 dead Americans every year. So yeah, maybe getting outside opinions is much needed.

With less congestion, there are more fatalities. Another thing to note is that the speed that gets the most cars through on a freeway is about 35-40 mph. This means that we should (not sure how) aim for congested freeways to be 35-40 mph consistently instead of being almost stopped in some places and times and free flow at other times. For surface roads, this is where getting consecutive greens helps: also about the same speed (depending on the road), with no stopping.
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

jamess

Quote from: 1 on April 06, 2021, 11:46:26 AM
Quote from: jamess on April 06, 2021, 11:38:30 AM
Here is what we know:
-Vehicles are safer than theyve ever been
-Miles traveled was very low last year
-And yet fatalities are almost universally up around the country.

That does indicate that the rules and guides and not working and need to be changed.

Whatever AASHTO, FHWA, and NHTSA have been doing is clearly not working, unless we want to define working as 40,000 dead Americans every year. So yeah, maybe getting outside opinions is much needed.

With less congestion, there are more fatalities. Another thing to note is that the speed that gets the most cars through on a freeway is about 35-40 mph. This means that we should (not sure how) aim for congested freeways to be 35-40 mph consistently instead of being almost stopped in some places and times and free flow at other times. For surface roads, this is where getting consecutive greens helps: also about the same speed (depending on the road), with no stopping.

Data from urban areas indicates this isnt just a freeway problem.

Im not convinced that consecutive greens help. Too many people in certain brands of cars (ahem, chargers and cameros) see the wave of greens and believe its the perfect opportunity to try 100mph on a local road.

I dont know if this is true across the country, but I feel like Im seeing more reports of fatal crashes with multiple deaths, because you have one driver going 112mph crashing into 4 other vehicles at once.

hotdogPi

Quote from: jamess on April 06, 2021, 11:51:55 AM
Im not convinced that consecutive greens help. Too many people in certain brands of cars (ahem, chargers and cameros) see the wave of greens and believe its the perfect opportunity to try 100mph on a local road.

With signs saying "signals timed for 30 mph" (which doesn't exist in most places, but does in some), with the appropriate number, it should be obvious that going faster than the speed of the green wave will result in a red light.
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

webny99

Quote from: 1 on April 06, 2021, 11:57:01 AM
With signs saying "signals timed for 30 mph" (which doesn't exist in most places, but does in some), with the appropriate number, it should be obvious that going faster than the speed of the green wave will result in a red light.

These exist on NY 441 (I will add a link later if I can find an example). Where else do they exist?

StogieGuy7

Lanes are "too wide" and that's a problem to them? I've seen this line of thinking before (the idea of: we have it too good and need to cut back) and - if followed- it always leads to changes that suck. I've driven quite a bit in countries that have narrower lanes and people drive just as crazily but seem to have a lot more wrecks and deaths, partially as a result of roads that are designed without the "luxuries" of wide lanes and nice wide shoulders. Break down in one of those places and perhaps your vehicle will be blocking half of the right lane where it makes a fine target for a high speed hit.

Sorry, but I call BS on that entire article.  It's crap.

SectorZ

Quote from: webny99 on April 06, 2021, 12:05:48 PM
Quote from: 1 on April 06, 2021, 11:57:01 AM
With signs saying "signals timed for 30 mph" (which doesn't exist in most places, but does in some), with the appropriate number, it should be obvious that going faster than the speed of the green wave will result in a red light.

These exist on NY 441 (I will add a link later if I can find an example). Where else do they exist?

US 202 in Holyoke MA, though for 25 MPH. Going east from where I-391 ends at US 202, driving that speed nets you a perfect string of green lights as advertised.

https://goo.gl/maps/H9VerSywcRpfmLpi8

(Also good luck reading that sign to begin with)

interstatefan990

Quote from: Mccojm on April 04, 2021, 02:54:50 PM
Quote from: vdeane on April 04, 2021, 12:08:37 PM
Quote from: behogie230 on April 04, 2021, 10:55:44 AM
So they're implying AASHTO, FHWA and the like should take public input for something that most people know nothing about? Honestly the majority of respondents would probably think wider and faster is better.
Don't be so sure.  Despite the fact that most people speed, people also tend to believe the people these days drive "too fast".  The attitude seems to be "slower for thee but not for me".

Also keep in mind the perception that "if you set the speed limit for X, everyone will just go X+Y".  It's been debunked many times, but most people still believe it.

NYSDOT gets requests all the time from across the state where people and municipalities are seeking to lower speed limits.  Many of these make the news, but not all of them do.

(personal opinion)
NYSDOT needs to raise speed limits on Long Island... max speed is 55mph, you do that in the right lane you're getting killed, do 80 mph in left lane and it isn't fast enough. Average speed here feels like at least 70 mph on all highways including the southern and northern parkways full of winding turns and lack of shoulders. Nobody does the speed limit unless you're looking to cause an accident and road rage here.

I feel like there needs to be a provision in state laws that allow you to exceed the speed limit in order to keep with the flow of traffic. Something like "a person may drive at a speed that exceeds the speed limit for the purposes of maintaining within ten miles per hour of the speed of the normal flow of traffic under the existing conditions at the time, provided, however, this shall not override the basic speed law or rules governing the passing of slower traffic." Such a provision, while having obvious exceptions, would allow people who don't want to exceed the speed limit too much to be able to do so for safety.
Multi-lane roundabouts are an abomination to mankind.

vdeane

Unfortunately, some people decided the empty roads in the lockdowns was a great time to try driving 100 mph.  At some point you always run into the "you can't fix stupid" issue.

It also doesn't help that many people were rusty when they returned to driving after the lockdowns.  Driving is very much a skill where experience matters.  This also affects things like graduated licencing programs, which are currently structured around the idea that safety issues for young drivers are solely caused by teenagers being reckless, when in reality driver experience is the more important variable.

Quote from: interstatefan990 on April 06, 2021, 12:45:17 PM
Quote from: Mccojm on April 04, 2021, 02:54:50 PM
Quote from: vdeane on April 04, 2021, 12:08:37 PM
Quote from: behogie230 on April 04, 2021, 10:55:44 AM
So they're implying AASHTO, FHWA and the like should take public input for something that most people know nothing about? Honestly the majority of respondents would probably think wider and faster is better.
Don't be so sure.  Despite the fact that most people speed, people also tend to believe the people these days drive "too fast".  The attitude seems to be "slower for thee but not for me".

Also keep in mind the perception that "if you set the speed limit for X, everyone will just go X+Y".  It's been debunked many times, but most people still believe it.

NYSDOT gets requests all the time from across the state where people and municipalities are seeking to lower speed limits.  Many of these make the news, but not all of them do.

(personal opinion)
NYSDOT needs to raise speed limits on Long Island... max speed is 55mph, you do that in the right lane you're getting killed, do 80 mph in left lane and it isn't fast enough. Average speed here feels like at least 70 mph on all highways including the southern and northern parkways full of winding turns and lack of shoulders. Nobody does the speed limit unless you're looking to cause an accident and road rage here.

I feel like there needs to be a provision in state laws that allow you to exceed the speed limit in order to keep with the flow of traffic. Something like "a person may drive at a speed that exceeds the speed limit for the purposes of maintaining within ten miles per hour of the speed of the normal flow of traffic under the existing conditions at the time, provided, however, this shall not override the basic speed law or rules governing the passing of slower traffic." Such a provision, while having obvious exceptions, would allow people who don't want to exceed the speed limit too much to be able to do so for safety.
That would require states to admit that speed limits are set too low... and if you're going to do that, why not raise the limit?
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

interstatefan990

Quote from: vdeane on April 06, 2021, 12:58:04 PM
That would require states to admit that speed limits are set too low... and if you're going to do that, why not raise the limit?

Because then people will just go even faster than the already high speed they're currently going. And since so many states are reluctant to admit speed limits are low while also refusing/being unable to post higher ones, this would provide a way to bypass that.
Multi-lane roundabouts are an abomination to mankind.



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