News:

Thanks to everyone for the feedback on what errors you encountered from the forum database changes made in Fall 2023. Let us know if you discover anymore.

Main Menu

IN US 31 Kokomo Bypass Upgrade Report

Started by mukade, June 26, 2011, 04:54:46 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

NWI_Irish96

Quote from: mukade on August 07, 2013, 06:04:33 AM
Quote
U.S. 31 has been Kokomo's commercial artery for half a century, going from a rural highway to a billboard-strewn retail center.

To the east, a new bypass is nearing completion, a road that will either supplant or compliment the old 31, depending on key decisions facing local officials.

One of the biggest decisions will be made in concert with the Indiana Department of Transportation, where state officials are hoping to "relinquish"  the old 31, giving it to the city of Kokomo in perpetuity...

Bypass or boulevard? Decisions looming on the old 31 corridor (Kokomo Tribune)

New road will be SR 931, not US 931, and Keystone was SR 431, not US 431. 
Indiana: counties 100%, highways 100%
Illinois: counties 100%, highways 61%
Michigan: counties 100%, highways 56%
Wisconsin: counties 86%, highways 23%


silverback1065

Why is INDOT so obsessed with getting rid of highways through urban areas, even if it makes routes discontinuous?  I guess this means eventually highways will randomly begin and end on either sides of cities.

NWI_Irish96

For the most part, cities/counties are fine with making these transitions.  They have a better understanding of the needs and use of their local roads than the state, and the state can focus more attention on maintaining the more major highways. 

As roadgeeks it stinks to have route numbers disappearing, but it really does make sense.
Indiana: counties 100%, highways 100%
Illinois: counties 100%, highways 61%
Michigan: counties 100%, highways 56%
Wisconsin: counties 86%, highways 23%

NE2

It only makes sense if you conflate state maintenance with state numbering.
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

silverback1065

Quote from: cabiness42 on August 08, 2013, 07:48:42 AM
For the most part, cities/counties are fine with making these transitions.  They have a better understanding of the needs and use of their local roads than the state, and the state can focus more attention on maintaining the more major highways. 

As roadgeeks it stinks to have route numbers disappearing, but it really does make sense.

I know it just sucks that they are doing it, it is also way cheaper too.  Is INDOT the only organization doing this?  It seems like most other states still maintain their state/us route in urban areas, Columbus, Ohio and Chicago come to mind.  It would be interesting if they did something like Massachusetts and Maryland and let the cities maintain some of the urban state routes.  Anyway, I've been on the current US 31, why would they want roundabouts on that road?  That just doesn't seem like a good idea for that particular road.  I guess their idea is to turn it into something like Hazel Dell Parkway in Carmel.

NWI_Irish96

Quote from: NE2 on August 08, 2013, 07:51:33 AM
It only makes sense if you conflate state maintenance with state numbering.

Well, I'm not familiar with the practices of other states, but that's the way it is in Indiana.  I personally wouldn't be opposed to keeping highways signed even after being turned over to localities, but I guess this way it's easier for the public to know where to direct their complaints about roads based on whether or not the road is signed.
Indiana: counties 100%, highways 100%
Illinois: counties 100%, highways 61%
Michigan: counties 100%, highways 56%
Wisconsin: counties 86%, highways 23%

vtk

Quote from: silverback1065 on August 08, 2013, 08:32:51 AM
It seems like most other states still maintain their state/us route in urban areas, Columbus, Ohio and Chicago come to mind.

In Ohio, incorporated cities over some threshold population take over maintenence of state highways (except Interstates) within their borders.  I suspect there is an annual stipend from the state, based on centerline mileage, to pay for this maintenance.  Signage of the routes continues, though this is also performed by the city. 
Wait, it's all Ohio? Always has been.

tdindy88

There's also the often-mentioned mileage cap to consider, fewer than 12,000 miles of state-maintained highways allowed by state law. However I do not see a Hazel Dell or a Keystone happening along the current US 31 through Kokomo. Hazel Dell works because it's in a residential area (the same reason a lot of those roundabouts work in Carmel) and likewise Keystone travels through mostly residential areas. US 31 in Kokomo is largely commercial with splatterings of residential and industrial and traffic along that route should remain decent. I wouldn't object to repaving the road and sprucing it up with sidewalks and bike lanes (keeping the current lane configuration) but roundabout intersections wouldn't be the way.

mgk920

I would probably want to redo it into a useful, tree-lined arterial boulevard.

Mike

mukade

Maybe that is why they are called them state roads in Indiana, and not state routes. This desire to shed state-maintained highways has been going on at least since 2000 - probably long before. It certainly is nothing new. Indiana is not close to the mileage cap mandated by law so that is a non-issue. A law that does enter in, I think, is that each county seat must be served by a state road. That might explain why SR 23 stays in South Bend, SR 441 stays in Vincennes, and similar.

I am all for having the state roads match the modern travelling habits. Consider how US 6 is routed from Joliet to Torrance Ave. in Illinois. In the old days, US 6 was routed on Ridge Road in Indiana from Munster to SR 51. So imagine a person who wished to travel from Joliet to Kendallville. Would anyone take that old route? Would anyone travelling from Greenfield to Brazil use Washington Street (former US 40) through Indy? If I wanted to travel from Sycamore, Illinois to the Loop, would I really take Illinois 64 the whole way? Why is North Avenue mainteded by IDOT as Illinois 64 in Chicago at all in 2013? So I think what INDOT is doing is good because it makes the state highway system more closely support and match modern travel habits, and it helps INDOT focus on improving the major roads we use rather than maintaining local or obsolete ones.

US 6 follows local roads in Illinois to this day closely paralleling I-80 across the state. There are many other examples in Illinois. In Indiana, US 31 south of Columbus still does the same following I-65 as does US 136 which follows I-74. I would rather see INDOT dump most areas of these redundant routes as well.

What makes little sense to me is when a state highway abruptly ends at a city limit, not at another highway. SR 61, for example ends at the Vincennes city limit. Another strange example is how SR 38 takes a long detour around Pendleton. I also scratch my head on why US 52 in Lafayette is being shifted from a divided highway (Sagamore parkway) to a two lane road (Teal Road) in Lafayette.

The way Indiana does it compared to Ohio where a state route can be maintained by a city still can work well if trailblazers are used liberally. Old SR 26 through Lafayette, for example, has more "TO I-65" signs (including I-65 shields painted on the pavement) than it had SR 26 signs. While that is great, I don't get why they don't also have trailblazers to SR 26. In the SR 61 in Vincennes example above, there are (or used to be at least) a good number of trailblazers so I doubt that many people get lost there.

So I guess I come in on the side of liking what INDOT is doing, but would like to see heavy use of trailblazers to major highways on the old routings in the city where to road was transferred to local control.

As for US 31/Reed Road in Kokomo, local control would allow this to be made into a much more attractive and functional road. A 1950s-style highway bypass with guardrails in the median and no curbs is not ideal for an area that is the commercial hub for Kokomo and surrounding cities and is all built up now.

silverback1065

Quote from: mukade on August 11, 2013, 09:59:44 AM
Maybe that is why they are called them state roads in Indiana, and not state routes. This desire to shed state-maintained highways has been going on at least since 2000 - probably long before. It certainly is nothing new. Indiana is not close to the mileage cap mandated by law so that is a non-issue. A law that does enter in, I think, is that each county seat must be served by a state road. That might explain why SR 23 stays in South Bend, SR 441 stays in Vincennes, and similar.

I am all for having the state roads match the modern travelling habits. Consider how US 6 is routed from Joliet to Torrance Ave. in Illinois. In the old days, US 6 was routed on Ridge Road in Indiana from Munster to SR 51. So imagine a person who wished to travel from Joliet to Kendallville. Would anyone take that old route? Would anyone travelling from Greenfield to Brazil use Washington Street (former US 40) through Indy? If I wanted to travel from Sycamore, Illinois to the Loop, would I really take Illinois 64 the whole way? Why is North Avenue mainteded by IDOT as Illinois 64 in Chicago at all in 2013? So I think what INDOT is doing is good because it makes the state highway system more closely support and match modern travel habits, and it helps INDOT focus on improving the major roads we use rather than maintaining local or obsolete ones.

US 6 follows local roads in Illinois to this day closely paralleling I-80 across the state. There are many other examples in Illinois. In Indiana, US 31 south of Columbus still does the same following I-65 as does US 136 which follows I-74. I would rather see INDOT dump most areas of these redundant routes as well.

What makes little sense to me is when a state highway abruptly ends at a city limit, not at another highway. SR 61, for example ends at the Vincennes city limit. Another strange example is how SR 38 takes a long detour around Pendleton. I also scratch my head on why US 52 in Lafayette is being shifted from a divided highway (Sagamore parkway) to a two lane road (Teal Road) in Lafayette.

The way Indiana does it compared to Ohio where a state route can be maintained by a city still can work well if trailblazers are used liberally. Old SR 26 through Lafayette, for example, has more "TO I-65" signs (including I-65 shields painted on the pavement) than it had SR 26 signs. While that is great, I don't get why they don't also have trailblazers to SR 26. In the SR 61 in Vincennes example above, there are (or used to be at least) a good number of trailblazers so I doubt that many people get lost there.

So I guess I come in on the side of liking what INDOT is doing, but would like to see heavy use of trailblazers to major highways on the old routings in the city where to road was transferred to local control.

As for US 31/Reed Road in Kokomo, local control would allow this to be made into a much more attractive and functional road. A 1950s-style highway bypass with guardrails in the median and no curbs is not ideal for an area that is the commercial hub for Kokomo and surrounding cities and is all built up now.

Good point, personally I like taking the old route a lot, (like US 40 instead of I-70) likely because I'm a road geek, but the average traveler would never do that.  As for US 40 and US 136 and US 31, I think AASHTO is partly why they won't decommission those routes, coupled with the counties not wanting to maintain the old routes.  As for SR 38, it was never supposed to be rerouted, the City of Pendleton asked INDOT to because they wanted to better control truck traffic, until recently, it did just end at either side of the city, and only recently it was rerouted on the current routing it is on.  I didn't know that rule about the county seat having to have a state road, I guess that also explains SR 22 in Kokomo, and US 27 in Ft Wayne. 

mukade

Quote from: NE2 on August 08, 2013, 07:51:33 AM
It only makes sense if you conflate state maintenance with state numbering.

We do that in the US. It is sort of like conflating Interstate numbering with freeway standards. I suppose Dwight Eisenhower was responsible for that as the I-system was patterned after the German Autobahns. Of course Germany is not nearly as expansive as the US so the same rules may not make the most sense. While on one had, two reasons that justified the Interstate system were to promote economic growth and support national defense, there is no allowance to sign key routes in some parts of the country that simply may not need a full freeway. In every other way, they might still meet the criteria for being an Interstate. Because the two are tied, you see proposals like I-69 through western Mississippi and southern Arkansas or I-66 in Kentucky just so politicians can get a red, white, and blue shield up in their district. Personally, I think certain key expressways should qualify for Interstate designation if traffic volume is below a certain point.

Also, it is pretty inconsistent when they do grant exceptions. I-94 thru Jackson, MI is downright dangerous, but I-69 on the Pennyrile Parkway in Kentucky can't get signed even though overall, that is a much safer road. I 100% support the upgrades, but don't understand why that would delay signing a highway.

A good example of an expressway that could be an Interstate is the part of US 31 north of US 24 and south of US 30. I doubt an objective analysis of current traffic volumes justify an upgrade to a freeway, but it certainly is a primary inter-city and inter-region route. South of US 24 should be upgraded to freeway.

NE2

Quote from: mukade on August 11, 2013, 12:32:05 PM
Quote from: NE2 on August 08, 2013, 07:51:33 AM
It only makes sense if you conflate state maintenance with state numbering.

We do that in the US.
Not always. There is no relationship between maintenance and signing in Massachusetts and Rhode Island. Many other states normally sign only routes that they maintain, but definitely have the occasional route along a locally-maintained street.
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

mukade

Quote
Miami County officials want to develop a strategic plan for U.S. 31 to prepare for a pending state project that will likely turn the highway into a limited-access freeway through the county...

Miami County is immediately north of Kokomo.

Miami County to develop plan for U.S. 31 (Kokomo Tribune)

Indyroads

Quote from: silverback1065 on August 08, 2013, 08:32:51 AM
Quote from: cabiness42 on August 08, 2013, 07:48:42 AM
For the most part, cities/counties are fine with making these transitions.  They have a better understanding of the needs and use of their local roads than the state, and the state can focus more attention on maintaining the more major highways. 

As roadgeeks it stinks to have route numbers disappearing, but it really does make sense.

I know it just sucks that they are doing it, it is also way cheaper too.  Is INDOT the only organization doing this?  It seems like most other states still maintain their state/us route in urban areas, Columbus, Ohio and Chicago come to mind.  It would be interesting if they did something like Massachusetts and Maryland and let the cities maintain some of the urban state routes.  Anyway, I've been on the current US 31, why would they want roundabouts on that road?  That just doesn't seem like a good idea for that particular road.  I guess their idea is to turn it into something like Hazel Dell Parkway in Carmel.
Not quite the roudabouts will be in place at the ends of the ramps on the cross streets. US-31 will be a freeway that passes over the cross streets. More like Keystone parkway but built to interstate standards.
And a highway will be there;
    it will be called the Way of Holiness;
    it will be for those who walk on that Way.
The unclean will not journey on it;
    wicked fools will not go about on it.
Isaiah 35:8-10 (NIV)

silverback1065

Quote from: Indyroads on August 23, 2013, 08:49:01 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on August 08, 2013, 08:32:51 AM
Quote from: cabiness42 on August 08, 2013, 07:48:42 AM
For the most part, cities/counties are fine with making these transitions.  They have a better understanding of the needs and use of their local roads than the state, and the state can focus more attention on maintaining the more major highways. 

As roadgeeks it stinks to have route numbers disappearing, but it really does make sense.

I know it just sucks that they are doing it, it is also way cheaper too.  Is INDOT the only organization doing this?  It seems like most other states still maintain their state/us route in urban areas, Columbus, Ohio and Chicago come to mind.  It would be interesting if they did something like Massachusetts and Maryland and let the cities maintain some of the urban state routes.  Anyway, I've been on the current US 31, why would they want roundabouts on that road?  That just doesn't seem like a good idea for that particular road.  I guess their idea is to turn it into something like Hazel Dell Parkway in Carmel.
Not quite the roudabouts will be in place at the ends of the ramps on the cross streets. US-31 will be a freeway that passes over the cross streets. More like Keystone parkway but built to interstate standards.

I was referring on what happens to SR 931 when it goes back to Kokomo, I thought what they meant by roundabouts, they meant traditional style, not teardrop style like on keystone.  By the way, I like the modified shield on your profile, how'd you get it?  It's better than the current Indiana shields!

mukade



Not that this is near opening, but it is interesting to see.

roadman65

I was hoping that soon to be old US 31 would become US 31 Business!

It would be easier in changing signs as only an extra banner would need to be added instead of a whole shield.  Plus like US 1 in Pendell, PA and Oxford Valley, PA where it was moved to a freeway bypass kept the old route as a business route, made it easy on business along the trek.  It still allows them to say "US 1" as a location as it still is part of US 1 there, so when it was changed back in the late 80s, a place like Reedman Auto Dealer who was always advertising being on US 1 for years was able to keep his advertisments the same after the switch!
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

silverback1065

Quote from: roadman65 on September 12, 2013, 08:03:56 PM
I was hoping that soon to be old US 31 would become US 31 Business!

It would be easier in changing signs as only an extra banner would need to be added instead of a whole shield.  Plus like US 1 in Pendell, PA and Oxford Valley, PA where it was moved to a freeway bypass kept the old route as a business route, made it easy on business along the trek.  It still allows them to say "US 1" as a location as it still is part of US 1 there, so when it was changed back in the late 80s, a place like Reedman Auto Dealer who was always advertising being on US 1 for years was able to keep his advertisments the same after the switch!

Indiana doesn't do business routes, any business routes you see in Indiana are maintained by the city that it's in, not the state.  So if you want a BUS US 31, ask Kokomo to do it.  I think it would be cool to do when Kokomo takes control.

monty

Traffic is to be re-routed tonight over the new "931" bridge.
monty

monty

At the Indiana Logistics Summit today, Governor Pence gave the luncheon speech about the future of Indiana's logistics system.  Near the beginning of his remarks, he told the audience that he has given INDOT three objectives in developing their project plan: take care of what we have, finish what we start, and plan for the future.  As part of the "finish what we start"  measure, he stated that this objective includes "getting 31 done to South Bend with no interruptions" !
monty

monty

Many of the new signs at the intersections with the new US 31 around Kokomo have been erected.  They are all identical, even at the US 35 / IN 22 interchange.  Large overheads with US 31 N or S and destinations of Indianapolis and South Bend.  At US 35, there are no large or overhead signs indicating that US 35 moves to the new route, only standard shields erected at the actual junction.  I thought maybe the "US" route designation and the new roadway constructed on that route would include a higher level type of signage.

INDOT plans to have the new route open by Thanksgiving but it seems there is quite a bit of concrete pavement to be laid at the north and south connectors.
monty

NWI_Irish96

Ideally, the new route would open November 27 at about 6pm  :D
Indiana: counties 100%, highways 100%
Illinois: counties 100%, highways 61%
Michigan: counties 100%, highways 56%
Wisconsin: counties 86%, highways 23%

mukade

#123
Quote from: monty on October 22, 2013, 10:09:20 AM
Many of the new signs at the intersections with the new US 31 around Kokomo have been erected.  They are all identical, even at the US 35 / IN 22 interchange.  Large overheads with US 31 N or S and destinations of Indianapolis and South Bend.  At US 35, there are no large or overhead signs indicating that US 35 moves to the new route, only standard shields erected at the actual junction.  I thought maybe the "US" route designation and the new roadway constructed on that route would include a higher level type of signage.

INDOT plans to have the new route open by Thanksgiving but it seems there is quite a bit of concrete pavement to be laid at the north and south connectors.

Yes, but oddly, the ones at Touby Pike do show the US 35 shield:


The signs at SR 22 are correct according to the published plans.

From what I saw, the north tie-in end paving is essentially done except at the new US 35 itself. The south tie-in concrete work is mostly done, surprisingly. Only right at old US 31 (SR 931) is there a gap. Most of the asphalt shoulders aren't complete on the south section.

monty

Looks like the new Kokomo US 31 route will open on Nov 26.
monty



Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.