European Migrant Crisis

[english si]

Curious statement, since the Syrian government (where many of the migrants are coming from) protects its Christians:

Yes, Syria (along with Lebanon and pre-war Iraq) was about the only place in the Middle East (including Israel) where you could be a Christian and not be unreasonably hassled about it, but in case you are a bit slow on events, Assad doesn't control much of the country!

I may have had to pay a tiny bit more attention to what they were saying because they had accents, but that's about it.

Surely the case with anyone in Canada

As citizens of the greatest and wealthiest country ever to exist on Earth, we spend an awful lot of time being paranoid about the world around us.

Surely, as a nation built from refugees, migrants who left the Old World for a better life, and natives who were treated poorly by the swarm of outsiders, it's only natural that you treat the rest of the world with disdain!

[noelbotevera]

I'm just waiting for them go all evil. Maybe like this: 

No

[cpzilliacus]

N.Y. Times: The Refugee Crisis Has Produced One Winner: Organized Crime

IN the midst of the refugee crisis, the European Union has for the first time ever been considering deploying naval assets against organized crime. People smuggling, chiefly from Syria and the Horn of Africa, is now a multibillion-dollar business that is as profitable, if not more so, than the trade in illegal narcotics.

This is not the trafficking of migrant labor or women for sexual purposes. These criminal gangs are effectively offering travel-agent services to desperate people fleeing conflict. Their services can include false documentation, bribes to border guards and transport, in dangerous, often deadly, circumstances.

Sadly, the measures countries are taking to counteract the flood of refugees serve only to make organized crime stronger. As long as European countries fail to implement a plan to take in refugees across member states, the business of people smuggling will continue to grow.

[US 41]

Yes the US is built of immigrants; mostly European ones. Also we weren't just letting everyone come over either. We checked them at Ellis Island. Europe is just letting everyone come over and they are not checking these people at all. The US is going to take some migrants, but we are doing background checks on them first. The US doesn't do the best job at stopping illegal immigrants (mostly Mexicans) from entering the country, but illegal Mexicans are a very small problem compared to Muslims from the Middle East. After all in the last 10 years I can almost guarantee that over 90% of major terrorist attacks in the world were caused by Muslims. I'm not going to say there aren't good ones, but I'm very cautious when it comes to people from those areas.

The US has been the victim of these threats especially on September 11th. Islamic extremists crashed planes into our second and third tallest buildings, crashed a plane into the pentagon, and would have crashed one into the US Capitol if not for the people in the plane stopping it. We are currently fighting Muslim terrorists in Afghanistan and Iraq. We're trying (I hope) to keep Iran from getting nuclear weapons. These people aren't all innocent people. Some Americans remember what happened just barely over 14 years ago.

About Hungary. They are an independent country and they can legally drop out of the EU and/or the Schengen anytime they want. They have a sovereign right  to keep people out they don't want. Hungary's PM also stated a few months ago that "Hungary doesn't need more Muslims here." Hungary also stated that they would take refugees that are Christian.

Israel on the other hand is not allowing anyone from Syria into their country. They know who these people are. They are hated by every country that surrounds them. The only friend Israel has in that region is the Mediterranean Sea. They are hated by these people because they are a Jewish country. Most real Muslims hate Jews and Christians. They are not tolerant of others religions. Even the beginning of Islam supports that. Mohammad spread Islam by taking over towns by force and then giving the people 2 options, convert to Islam or die. The Islamic State is taking the same approach. Anyone that says the Islamic State is not Islamic is totally false and is totally unaware of the history of the religion. So yes there is a reason to be concerned. When you outnumber them it's not a big deal, but when they outnumber you then trouble starts to brew. Below in a quote is your little history lesson.

After Mohammed's forces destroyed all of his enemies in Medina they turned toward Mecca. His army marched into the city, destroyed all opposition and forcibly converted everyone there, as well as those in neighboring villages. He thus built for himself a strong base of power with a large army, whose avowed purpose was to go forth, conquer the rest of the Middle East and convert it to Islam.

Mohammed is the one who invented — or at least introduced – the concept of the jihad, or holy war, into the Muslim religion. He said that anyone who dies in the jihad receives the greatest rewards in the afterlife. The Muslim afterlife has much more tangible rewards than the spiritual "World to Come"  of Judaism or even of Christianity. The Muslim afterlife is wine, women, and song–not necessarily in that order. Therefore, he had a relatively easy time convincing others that death in a jihad was to be viewed as nothing to be feared.

Over the centuries, the Muslims have been able to raise such a fervor among themselves for these types of holy wars that outsiders tend to associate Islam with jihad more than anything else.

At the end of the day I'm just glad all this is happening in Europe and not here in America.

[Rothman]

Most real Muslims hate Jews and Christians.

I'll have to tell my Muslim friends that have no problem with me being a Christian that they're in the minority, then.   

[Pete from Boston]

Most real Muslims hate Jews and Christians.

I'll have to tell my Muslim friends that have no problem with me being a Christian that they're in the minority, then.   

Right?  I'll have to tell my Muslim friends they're not real Muslims, which is going to make them sad.  I'm not looking forward to it.

[english si]

Yes the US is built of immigrants; mostly European ones. Also we weren't just letting everyone come over either. We checked them at Ellis Island. Europe is just letting everyone come over and they are not checking these people at all. The US is going to take some migrants, but we are doing background checks on them first.

Err, we're checking them. Of course, those doing the checking are being told off for doing the checking.

The US doesn't do the best job at stopping illegal immigrants (mostly Mexicans) from entering the country, but illegal Mexicans are a very small problem compared to Muslims from the Middle East.

So you don't do background checks, like you just asserted!

Also, you keep asserting that these people are Muslims - many are, sure, but most are people fleeing from oppression by Muslims.

After all in the last 10 years I can almost guarantee that over 90% of major terrorist attacks in the world were caused by Muslims. I'm not going to say there aren't good ones, but I'm very cautious when it comes to people from those areas.

The UK never, even in the heights of the troubles, stopped the Common Travel Area, allowing UK and Irish citizens to come and go as they pleased. Yes there were border crossings closed and checkpoints set up in Northern Ireland, but nothing like the extent of

The US has been the victim of these threats especially on September 11th.

And Europe hasn't? I like that you have no real argument but reducto ad novem undecim and bigotry.

Islamic extremists crashed planes into our second and third tallest buildings, crashed a plane into the pentagon, and would have crashed one into the US Capitol if not for the people in the plane stopping it.

We all know what happened there, no need to reiterate it: doing so just undermines your argument as it is showing that it is not rational.

We are currently fighting Muslim terrorists in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Nope. You moved out of both countries.

We're trying (I hope) to keep Iran from getting nuclear weapons.

But didn't stop Israel, which is the only reason why Iran wants them so badly.

And it's not like the Hindu extremist in charge of India, or even the hardline Muslim government of Pakistan have used their bombs (and throw in China into the mix there as another state that shouldn't have weapons has them).

Even the genuinely insane North Koreans haven't used their nuke yet, despite having starved their people to make it!

Some Americans remember what happened just barely over 14 years ago.

As pointed out, no one has forgotten that.

About Hungary. They are an independent country and they can legally drop out of the EU and/or the Schengen anytime they want.

Schengen maybe, but the EU (I know, because Brexit is being seriously talked about) will require the other 27 members approving.

But Hungary is merely following the Schengen/EU rules. The issue is much bigger than it would be by Germany asserting its sovereign right to say who enters its country, but giving those it wants no way of getting in but via land.

They have a sovereign right  to keep people out they don't want.

I'm not denying that. Germany and the EU are denying that.

Hungary's PM also stated a few months ago that "Hungary doesn't need more Muslims here." Hungary also stated that they would take refugees that are Christian.

And I have no problem with that, other than the xenophobia towards Muslims. The problem is that they would have to leave the EU to do it and that isn't easy.

Israel on the other hand is not allowing anyone from Syria into their country.

Even ignoring that Israel is as friendly to Christians, Druze, etc as Turkey is (ie less friendly than Syria was - a country that you are paranoid is full of anti-Christian Muslims wanting to turn the West into a Caliphate), Syria and Israel are technically at war, merely under a long ceasefire.

When Top Gear drove from Iraq to Bethlehem through the area where ISIS currently operate (this was before ISIS existed, about 5 years ago), they found out, just after they entered Syria (which was so friendly to them, they had to avoid the towns because even under Assad's regime, they loved the Western shows like Top Gear and in the towns they were getting mobbed by fans) they found out that they would have real difficulty entering Israel because they had merely driven through and got a passport stamped with Syria. The producers had thought ahead and gave them a second passport that didn't have the Syrian stamp.

It's the same sort of thing as Armenia and Azerbaijan, Georgia and Russia, etc. There's an unresolved conflict and so there's a lack of diplomatic ties. It's not about "Syrians will blow you up" it's a "you've been there, so you are not coming here" thing. The Top Gear team were Brits, not Syrians. They aren't Muslims and had film footage of what they did in Syria (drive through one town, then off-roaded it through the desert), but they needed to pretend to the Israeli authorities that they had never been there because otherwise Israel wouldn't let them in because they are bigots.

They know who these people are.

They certainly knew who Clarkson, May and Hammond were, but they wouldn't let them in their country merely because they visited Syria.

They are hated by every country that surrounds them.

They get on fairly well with Lebanon now, and Egypt and Jordan were relatively OK (the regime change has undermined the Egyptian relations). And Palestine has genuine beef with them, especially the West Bank, which has acted much less hostile towards Israel in recent years.

They are not tolerant of others religions.

Maybe not, but you are the pot calling the kettle black here!

Mohammad spread Islam by taking over towns by force and then giving the people 2 options, convert to Islam or die.

Not quite true - they could pay a heavily penalising tax.

But those fleeing ISIS are fucking fleeing it to escape that, not to import it into Europe!

[AlexandriaVA]

About Hungary. They are an independent country and they can legally drop out of the EU and/or the Schengen anytime they want. They have a sovereign right  to keep people out they don't want. Hungary's PM also stated a few months ago that "Hungary doesn't need more Muslims here." Hungary also stated that they would take refugees that are Christian.

It's funny that you express concern about Jews and then cite Hungary as a country to emulate. Hungary collaborated with the Third Reich and has anti-Semetic sentiments. I suspect that you have not read much on European history and culture...

At the end of the day I'm just glad all this is happening in Europe and not here in America.

I think you can rest assured that you'll be safe in western Indiana. Please do pray for those of us on the coasts and in big cities. What will we ever do?

[US 41]

As I said in a earlier post. Not all Muslims are bad people. I just find it hard to trust them based on the religion's history. The fact that Hungary arrested 29 people and one of them was a wanted ISIS terrorist makes it hard to believe that everyone is being checked. A terrorist in Germany attempted to murder a police officer 4 days ago. A lot of these "migrants" are terrorists and European countries should be concerned. Once they cross into Hungary or Slovenia they can go anywhere they want and no one will what country they are in. At the end of the day they are still illegal aliens and should be deported. Turkey is accepting refugees and is pretty safe. There's no reason for them to have to go to an EU nation.

It's funny that you express concern about Jews and then cite Hungary as a country to emulate. Hungary collaborated with the Third Reich and has anti-Semetic sentiments. I suspect that you have not read much on European history and culture...

Things are different in Hungary now. Things are not different in Middle Eastern countries. Maybe you should ask Iran that question. One of their former leaders denied the holocaust and thought Israel should be wiped off the map. Yet some think allowing them to have nukes is not that big of a deal. Iran and other middle eastern places are about as anti-semetic as you can get, yet you're worried about Hungary. Give me a break.



All the countries in black refuse Israeli citizens.

[Zeffy]

As I said in a earlier post. Not all Muslims are bad people. I just find it hard to trust them based on the religion's history. The fact that Hungary arrested 29 people and one of them was a wanted ISIS terrorist makes it hard to believe that everyone is being checked. A terrorist in Germany attempted to murder a police officer 4 days ago. A lot of these "migrants" are terrorists and European countries should be concerned. Once they cross into Hungary or Slovenia they can go anywhere they want and no one will what country they are in. At the end of the day they are still illegal aliens and should be deported. Turkey is accepting refugees and is pretty safe. There's no reason for them to have to go to an EU nation.

So... Do you also distrust most people of non-white origin in cities where crime is prevalent?

[AlexandriaVA]

I think you should considering broadening the news sources you rely on. It would do well for your worldview, I think. What newspapers and magazines are available for purchase in Western Indiana?

[Rothman]

I think you should considering broadening the news sources you rely on. It would do well for your worldview, I think. What newspapers and magazines are available for purchase in Western Indiana?

Farmer's Almanac.

[Rothman]

The fact that Hungary arrested 29 people and one of them was a wanted ISIS terrorist makes it hard to believe that everyone is being checked.

Huh.  Kind of hard to arrest people without some sort of check.

[US 41]

All I'm saying is there is going to be an internal security threat in the EU. Instead of opening up the floodgates they need to start checking these people. These migrants are from an area that has terrorism and the EU needs to make sure that potential terrorists are not acting as refugees. There's a reason Israel and Hungary don't want them. Hungary's PM's favorability rating increased a lot when they started building fences. Most European and American citizens polled don't want them in their countries either.

[US 41]

The fact that Hungary arrested 29 people and one of them was a wanted ISIS terrorist makes it hard to believe that everyone is being checked.

Huh.  Kind of hard to arrest people without some sort of check.

The only reason they were checked is because Hungary built a fence and these 29 people were caught illegally entering Hungary. If Hungary hadn't build a fence and closed sown the border that terrorist would still be running lose somewhere in Europe.

[Rothman]

Most European and American citizens polled don't want them in their countries either.

Evidently, people have forgotten the terrible lesson of turning away the St. Louis.

[Rothman]

The fact that Hungary arrested 29 people and one of them was a wanted ISIS terrorist makes it hard to believe that everyone is being checked.

Huh.  Kind of hard to arrest people without some sort of check.

The only reason they were checked is because Hungary built a fence and these 29 people were caught illegally entering Hungary. If Hungary hadn't build a fence and closed sown the border that terrorist would still be running lose somewhere in Europe.

Funny thing:  There's not a fence between Canada and the U.S. in lots of places.  Think of all the terrorists that must be pouring in through that border and all the deaths that have occurred because of it.

...

Oh...wait.

[Pete from Boston]

Most European and American citizens polled don't want them in their countries either.

Neither place conducts immigration policy by referendum.  We would be an overwhelmingly English/Scotch-Irish population here if we did.

[mgk920]

During the late 19th and very early 20th centuries, the period of the great European migration, yes, most were checked in at Ellis Island.  The USA was also very actively rejecting and deporting bad people from that lot.  MANY potential immigrants were rejected at Ellis Island, mostly for medical reasons, but also a substantial number, primarily from southeastern Europe (the Balkans) were rejected due to their being known anarchists.  Those who did get through and started causing trouble (a well-known Hollywood cliché - the 'Boris Badinov bomb', that black ball with the fuse sticking out - emerged from that period) were arrested by local cops and federal marshalls, returned to Ellis Island and deported.

Also, during that period, English was *NOT* the majority language in Wisconsin - the #1 spoken language here in Wisconsin was German, about 40-45% of Wisconsinites spoke it at home and in many places, one could not get along without being conversant in it.  About a third spoke English and most of the rest spoke other European languages such as Polish, Italian, Gaelic, Dutch, Serbo-Croatian and several Scandinavian languages and about 1% spoke various aboriginal languages.  Within a couple of generations, they had pretty much all assimilated into English.

If people are coming "yearning to breathe free", I'm all for their coming and being here.  If not, then I don't want anything to do with them.

Mike

[Pete from Boston]

What, specifically, is contained in the rhetoric "yearning to breathe free"?

[US 41]

What, specifically, is contained in the rhetoric "yearning to breathe free"?

I think he means wanting to start over and not bringing over the old. If you are going to move here you need to try to learn the language and try to fit in with our culture. I think it also means not causing trouble when you get here.

Neither place conducts immigration policy by referendum.

They should. The government is supposed to represent the people of their country, not the people of other countries.

[AlexandriaVA]

What, specifically, is contained in the rhetoric "yearning to breathe free"?

I think he means wanting to start over and not bringing over the old. If you are going to move here you need to try to learn the language and try to fit in with our culture. I think it also means not causing trouble when you get here.

Pretty sure "yearning to breathe free" means "wants to be free", not "required to learn English"

Neither place conducts immigration policy by referendum.

They should. The government is supposed to represent the people of their country, not the people of other countries.

Do you even know what the difference is between a republican and direct democratic form of government? You'd fail your own US citizenship test!

[AlexandriaVA]

I think it also means not causing trouble when you get here.

Only native-born citizens are allowed to cause trouble!

[US71]

I think it also means not causing trouble when you get here.

Only native-born citizens are allowed to cause trouble!

Like the Cherokee, the Sioux, the Muscogee, etc?

[Pete from Boston]

What, specifically, is contained in the rhetoric "yearning to breathe free"?

I think he means wanting to start over and not bringing over the old. If you are going to move here you need to try to learn the language and try to fit in with our culture. I think it also means not causing trouble when you get here.

I thought "yearning to breathe free" meant "wanting very much to no longer be subjugated or oppressed." Am I reading Emma Lazarus too literally?

Neither place conducts immigration policy by referendum.

They should. The government is supposed to represent the people of their country, not the people of other countries.

By that logic, we should all be casting direct votes daily on government business.  I am quite sure this was not the Framers' intent.

It is also contraindicated as a sound guiding principle.  We have at least one notable executive decision in our history, not extremely popular at the time, essentially granting protections to a very large class of non-citizens with "cultural differences" that most citizens of the United States were not looking to welcome into their lives.  Nevertheless, Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation because following the people's will is not always the right thing to do.