AARoads Forum

Last week, I took the Lake Michigan Carferry (SS Badger) from Manitowoc WI to Ludington MI, on my way home from western Canada. Some years ago, AASHTO approved the addition of the ferry route as part of US 10. As shown below, I'm not sure Michigan DOT has implemented that approval.

Here is one of several photos I took of the Badger and the ramp onto the vessel, at the Manitowoc end of the journey. The vessel itself has a US 10 route marker painted on it, above the vehicle loading/unloading ramp. On land, there is also a US 10 route marker (looking not quite official), implying that eastbound US 10 continues right onto the ship when it's in port.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.alaskaroads.com%2FSSBadger-docked-in-Manitowoc-with-US10-markers-DSC_1448.jpg&hash=eecd9341592a613075e8050e9223d9f7b5c7e15c)

At the Ludington end of the journey, there appears to be no similar US 10 signage within the vehicle loading/unloading area. On the access road before that area and the ferry terminal, there's a US 10 Ends route marker, about 0.2 mile from the vehicle loading/unloading ramp:

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.alaskaroads.com%2FUS10-end-sign-before-SSBadger-staging-area-DSC_1473.jpg&hash=8741441712567ffa1349fa600364297eba445962)

Some brief notes on the ferry experience:

-- Unlike other auto ferries I've taken, drivers are not allowed to drive their own vehicles on or off the vessel. Rather, you park your vehicle, and Carferry drivers will take it onto the vessel, then drive it off at the other end to a passenger waiting area where you retrieve it and drive it away. I suspect this is to make loading/unloading more efficient, and pack as many vehicles as possible (including truck trailers and RVs) into the vehicle deck space. But on other vessels, you do that yourself under crew member direction.

-- Complicating loading and unloading is that it's all done at the aft end of the vessel, which is backed into the dock at each end of the journey. That means that while cars can be driven on board in the usual fashion, truck trailers and RVs have to be backed in to the vehicle deck. This part I can understand the crew wanting to do the driving themselves.

-- The Badger has a "cruise director", and signs and intercom announcements pretend it's a (non-luxury) cruise ship. I don't do cruise ships, so that put me off.

That's a current WisDOT standard US 10 sign.  The font might be a bit off, but that would be a contractor error.

Mike

The price per journey is incredibly high though, isn't it?   That's always put me off any thought of ever using it.

Quote from: invincor on September 11, 2018, 09:14:43 AM
The price per journey is incredibly high though, isn't it?   That's always put me off any thought of ever using it.

A family of four with a car round trip is nearly $500.  And it takes four hours.  I'm sure the experience is cool for a bit, but four hours is a long time IMO.  (It is shorter than driving if those are your final destinations however.)

The same family on the Lake Express is going to cost about $630 for two and a half hours.

My cousin is the captain of the ship. His grandfather and my grandmother were brother and sister.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 11, 2018, 09:26:10 AM

Quote from: invincor on September 11, 2018, 09:14:43 AM
The price per journey is incredibly high though, isn't it?   That's always put me off any thought of ever using it.

A family of four with a car round trip is nearly $500.  And it takes four hours.  I'm sure the experience is cool for a bit, but four hours is a long time IMO.  (It is shorter than driving if those are your final destinations however.)

The same family on the Lake Express is going to cost about $630 for two and a half hours.

Occasionally there are Groupons that bring the price down significantly. My wife and I took a round trip as foot passengers from Manitowoc for our anniversary two years ago, and the cost was reasonable.

And I enjoyed the "cruise director"  aspect of it, it was cornier and less in-your-face than what you'd find on a Caribbean cruise. We liked the bingo and the trivia, though we ended up sitting out a few rounds because we felt like we'd won too many times.

Quote from: invincor on September 11, 2018, 09:14:43 AM
The price per journey is incredibly high though, isn't it?   That's always put me off any thought of ever using it.

My fare, traveling solo with my car one-way, was $150. During the high season when the Badger makes two round-trips a day, you can save money by taking the late sailing, though perhaps in the dark at a ridiculous time.

That's a ridiculous sum of money for that ferry ride.  A single person ride on the Chi-Cheemaun that traverses Lake Huron between Tobermory, ON and Manitoulin Island is about $60 CDN for a single person with a car.

I grant that the Chi-Cheemaun's run is probably about 25 % shorter than the Badger Ferry, but that amount of distance shouldn't warrant the nearly three times price increase.

Quote from: AsphaltPlanet on September 13, 2018, 07:17:51 AM
That's a ridiculous sum of money for that ferry ride.  A single person ride on the Chi-Cheemaun that traverses Lake Huron between Tobermory, ON and Manitoulin Island is about $60 CDN for a single person with a car.

I grant that the Chi-Cheemaun's run is probably about 25 % shorter than the Badger Ferry, but that amount of distance shouldn't warrant the nearly three times price increase.

The Badger is more of a touristy thing than anything.  I don't think too many people take it for actual travel.  I live in Green Bay, and if I ever had to drive to the Detroit area, there is zero chance I would take the ferry unless I just did so for the experience.

Does anyone know or speculate on why they waited until 2015 to make the SS Badger Carferry an offical part of US 10? I would have thought they'd have done it when the route was designated in 1926, not wait until 89 years later.

Well 1926 may not have been as straightforward to do so. Manitowoc to Ludington was one of several cross-lake routes run by a few different companies.  It may have been seen as favoritism to one company over another.

The SS Badger was originally built by the C&O Railroad to ferry railcars back and forth from Wisconsin.  Of the 3 ships built it is the last one in service after it was converted to straight auto and passenger.

The "problem" with the Badger and the cost, is the fact it runs on coal. It is expensive to maintain year round service and it is very old.

Michigan, Illinois and Wisconsin have all done studies on some kind of high speed ferry service over Lake Michigan, but 2 issues usually arise.

Lake Michigan is 60-100 miles across depending on the spot to cross.

The cost to go faster with the same amount of weight is very, very expensive.

And it has to be able to cut ice if run year round.

Everyone agrees that if the price came down, it would get more usage. But to get that price down, it would require new ships, substantial subsidies from the supporting states.

Many people would like to think that a Lake Michigan ferry should be no different than what WDOT does in Puget Sound. Hardly.  Puget Sound does not freeze up and does not have the same operating requirements a Great Lakes boat would require.

For the trivia minded.

In 1977 after nearly 3 months of sub-freezing weather, the lower portion of Lake Michigan froze over.  All 60 miles from Chicago over to the Michigan side.

On a dare, a man drove his car out onto the ice on the Michigan side and drove across the lake. People in the Chicago high rises started calling the police that there was a car coming into town from the lake side.  As he pulled up into Grant Park, the CPD arrested him. He was fortunate that the south end of the lake is very shallow and can freeze over under proper conditions. When asked if he drove slow in case the ice cracked, he replied "what would I have done, I was driving a 4000 pound car on ice".  Asked how fast he
went, he said "as fast as it would let me since I couldn't stop if I wanted to".  Asked how long it took him he said about an hour an half.  It would have been faster but a couple of times he lost traction and spun out and had to restart out again slowly.

The Coast Guard said if he had made a diversion of less than 10 miles north at the halfway point, his car would have broken through the ice and he would have died shortly thereafter.

That is it for Lake Michigan and car crossing trivia.

You have the Lake Express ferry between Milwaukee and Muskegon, a modern high-speed ferry with faster and more frequent service. It costs more than the Badger.

BTW, I took the Lake Express one-way from Muskegon to Milwaukee on an earlier trip. I noticed lots of design similarities between the Lake Express and the (ultimately short-lived) Hawaii Superferry, the main difference being the Superferry was a larger vessel designed to transport trucks and their trailers as well as autos and passengers, and also to deal with rough open-ocean waters rather than the relatively placid Lake Michigan. A crewmember told me that the designs were similar enough that Superferry crewmembers and executives traveled on the Lake Express, to get some experience useful when they later took delivery on the new Superferry vessel.

Quote from: AsphaltPlanet on September 13, 2018, 07:17:51 AM
That's a ridiculous sum of money for that ferry ride.  A single person ride on the Chi-Cheemaun that traverses Lake Huron between Tobermory, ON and Manitoulin Island is about $60 CDN for a single person with a car.

Is the Chi-Cheemaun a government-operated ferry? Does it get government subsidies that the privately-owned Badger doesn't get?

As long as the Interstate Highway System exists, interest in a cross-lake ferry will be low. I can drive from my home to Muskegon in the same amount of time it would take to drive up to Milwaukee to catch the ferry. Driving to Ludington vs driving up to Manitowoc and taking the Badger, it's not even a competition.

I loved taking the various ferries from Britain to other countries, but those are on the decline thanks to low-cost air travel.

Depending on where your going and coming from the ferry across the lake takes too long for my liking.

Quote from: Flint1979 on September 15, 2018, 08:42:31 AM
Depending on where your going and coming from the ferry across the lake takes too long for my liking.

The only reason I did it on this trip was the specific objective of clinching as much of US 10 as I could, including parts on both sides of the lake. The previous Badger trip in 1996, I had to cross Lake Michigan toward Montana after a visit to my godmother in Traverse City. These kinds of reasons are not as common as the companies operating the Badger, and the Lake Express, would prefer.

I like that this thread came up, because my hometown is actually on the western end of the carferry service. Unfortunately I've never been on the Badger myself (though I plan to someday!), but anyone who has ever lived in Manitowoc (or Ludington, for that matter) can see it coming in at certain times each day from May to October.

Quote from: oscar on September 15, 2018, 09:29:35 AM

Quote from: Flint1979 on September 15, 2018, 08:42:31 AM
Depending on where your going and coming from the ferry across the lake takes too long for my liking.

The only reason I did it on this trip was the specific objective of clinching as much of US 10 as I could, including parts on both sides of the lake. The previous Badger trip in 1996, I had to cross Lake Michigan toward Montana after a visit to my godmother in Traverse City. These kinds of reasons are not as common as the companies operating the Badger, and the Lake Express, would prefer.

I only live about 15 miles or so from US-10's eastern terminus so I'm around that area often enough. I've clinched the Michigan stretch of US-10 before going from Ludington to Bay City. I like how it turns into a freeway in Clare County and is a freeway all the way to the eastern terminus. I always thought the original eastern terminus in Detroit was odd since it just multiplexed with other highways for the most part.

Quote from: Flint1979 on September 15, 2018, 05:15:50 PM

Quote from: oscar on September 15, 2018, 09:29:35 AM

Quote from: Flint1979 on September 15, 2018, 08:42:31 AM
Depending on where your going and coming from the ferry across the lake takes too long for my liking.

The only reason I did it on this trip was the specific objective of clinching as much of US 10 as I could, including parts on both sides of the lake. The previous Badger trip in 1996, I had to cross Lake Michigan toward Montana after a visit to my godmother in Traverse City. These kinds of reasons are not as common as the companies operating the Badger, and the Lake Express, would prefer.

I only live about 15 miles or so from US-10's eastern terminus so I'm around that area often enough. I've clinched the Michigan stretch of US-10 before going from Ludington to Bay City. I like how it turns into a freeway in Clare County and is a freeway all the way to the eastern terminus. I always thought the original eastern terminus in Detroit was odd since it just multiplexed with other highways for the most part.

I actually like the endings where they are now. My goal now is to clinch all of US 10 including the carferry.

Quote from: oscar on September 14, 2018, 08:45:39 PM
Is the Chi-Cheemaun a government-operated ferry? Does it get government subsidies that the privately-owned Badger doesn't get?

The Chi-Cheemaun does receive government subsidies from the Ontario Government.  I had never looked into it before I wrote my original post, but it receives somewhere in the neighbourhood of $2 million per year from the provincial government.  So that's probably a good explanation of the different cost structures right htere.

http://www.ontarioferries.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/OSTC-2017_2018-2019_2020-Final-.pdf

Quote from: Flint1979 on September 15, 2018, 05:15:50 PM

Quote from: oscar on September 15, 2018, 09:29:35 AM

Quote from: Flint1979 on September 15, 2018, 08:42:31 AM
Depending on where your going and coming from the ferry across the lake takes too long for my liking.

The only reason I did it on this trip was the specific objective of clinching as much of US 10 as I could, including parts on both sides of the lake. The previous Badger trip in 1996, I had to cross Lake Michigan toward Montana after a visit to my godmother in Traverse City. These kinds of reasons are not as common as the companies operating the Badger, and the Lake Express, would prefer.

I only live about 15 miles or so from US-10's eastern terminus so I'm around that area often enough. I've clinched the Michigan stretch of US-10 before going from Ludington to Bay City. I like how it turns into a freeway in Clare County and is a freeway all the way to the eastern terminus. I always thought the original eastern terminus in Detroit was odd since it just multiplexed with other highways for the most part.

Back in 1926, US-10 going to Detroit made sense.  When I-75 came into being, not so much anymore.  And then it got truncated to the current ending at Bay City.  Just like US-27 got truncated and then finally removed from Michigan, US-25 and US-16 got removed, US-2 was truncated, US-112 got replaced by US-12 when 12's original route was replaced by I-94, etc.

I could probably get a discount since I have a relative in high places there, but the fact that they don't let you park your car yourself (and apparently don't allow access to it during the trip) is a major turn-off for me.

Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 15, 2018, 06:24:38 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on September 15, 2018, 05:15:50 PM

Quote from: oscar on September 15, 2018, 09:29:35 AM

Quote from: Flint1979 on September 15, 2018, 08:42:31 AM
Depending on where your going and coming from the ferry across the lake takes too long for my liking.

The only reason I did it on this trip was the specific objective of clinching as much of US 10 as I could, including parts on both sides of the lake. The previous Badger trip in 1996, I had to cross Lake Michigan toward Montana after a visit to my godmother in Traverse City. These kinds of reasons are not as common as the companies operating the Badger, and the Lake Express, would prefer.

I only live about 15 miles or so from US-10's eastern terminus so I'm around that area often enough. I've clinched the Michigan stretch of US-10 before going from Ludington to Bay City. I like how it turns into a freeway in Clare County and is a freeway all the way to the eastern terminus. I always thought the original eastern terminus in Detroit was odd since it just multiplexed with other highways for the most part.

I actually like the endings where they are now. My goal now is to clinch all of US 10 including the carferry.

Yeah they are fine now that I-75 and I-94 have taken over much of the older routing. I've only been up to the car ferry in Ludington but not on it. From M-115 to the eastern terminus it's a freeway and the freeway turns into M-25 heading into Bay City. I've been by the eastern terminus several times.

Quote from: GaryV on September 15, 2018, 08:36:33 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on September 15, 2018, 05:15:50 PM

Quote from: oscar on September 15, 2018, 09:29:35 AM

Quote from: Flint1979 on September 15, 2018, 08:42:31 AM
Depending on where your going and coming from the ferry across the lake takes too long for my liking.

The only reason I did it on this trip was the specific objective of clinching as much of US 10 as I could, including parts on both sides of the lake. The previous Badger trip in 1996, I had to cross Lake Michigan toward Montana after a visit to my godmother in Traverse City. These kinds of reasons are not as common as the companies operating the Badger, and the Lake Express, would prefer.

I only live about 15 miles or so from US-10's eastern terminus so I'm around that area often enough. I've clinched the Michigan stretch of US-10 before going from Ludington to Bay City. I like how it turns into a freeway in Clare County and is a freeway all the way to the eastern terminus. I always thought the original eastern terminus in Detroit was odd since it just multiplexed with other highways for the most part.

Back in 1926, US-10 going to Detroit made sense.  When I-75 came into being, not so much anymore.  And then it got truncated to the current ending at Bay City.  Just like US-27 got truncated and then finally removed from Michigan, US-25 and US-16 got removed, US-2 was truncated, US-112 got replaced by US-12 when 12's original route was replaced by I-94, etc.

That makes sense for US-10. US-27 ran solo from Lansing to Grayling the reason that MDOT wanted to eliminate US-27 was to avoid confusion with US-127 so they just ran US-127 up US-27's old routing and eliminated the long multiplex with I-69. I think that one's fine now, for years I still called it US-27 though. The freeway routing with I-94 and US-12 seems fine now too. I wasn't around when that switch was made.

Unlike most other ferries, people don't travel on the Badger solely for the sake of getting from Point A to Point B. They travel on it as PART of their vacation experience. It's a mini cruise ship where you can take your car with you. The Badger even has private staterooms.

The Lake Express is similar in that it's primarily for leisure travelers, although it does attract its share of business travel as well, but neither are true commuter ferries like the Chi-Cheemaun.

It's also worth noting that the Badger is very popular for trucks hauling oversize cargo; it's much easier to take the ferry across than drive an oversized load around Chicago (several years ago, trucks hauling wind turbine parts used the Badger to haul parts across the lake).

While it's true that neither ferry operates during the winter months (November- May), the Badger was built with a reinforced ice-breaking hull, and used to sail year-round when it was hauling railroad cars.

The Badger's historical significance comes from the fact that Ludington was once a major railroad ferry hub for what was originally the Pere Marquette Railroad (which merged into the C&O railroad in 1947; which then became the Chessie System in the 1970s, and is CSX Transportation today). There was, at one time, over half a dozen railroad ferries operating out of Ludington, crossing the lake to docks in Manitowoc, Kewaunee, and Milwaukee. The railroad ferry industry went into a sharp decline after the improvement and expansion of rail lines around Chicago, and by the end of the 1970s railroad ferry service had all but fizzled out.

The Badger's twin ship, the SS Spartan, has sat idle since 1979, and serves mainly as a parts ship to keep the Badger operating. There have been a few talks over the years about restoring it into service, but it's highly unlikely she'll ever serve again.

A third ferry, the SS City of Midland, was cut down to an open deck barge in the late 1990s and remains in service as the Pere Marquette 41.

That the Badger remains in service as an auto ferry is more or less a modern continuation of Ludington's history as a ferry hub, albeit in a much more tourism-oriented form.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 11, 2018, 09:26:10 AM

Quote from: invincor on September 11, 2018, 09:14:43 AM
The price per journey is incredibly high though, isn't it?   That's always put me off any thought of ever using it.

A family of four with a car round trip is nearly $500.  And it takes four hours.  I'm sure the experience is cool for a bit, but four hours is a long time IMO.  (It is shorter than driving if those are your final destinations however.)

The same family on the Lake Express is going to cost about $630 for two and a half hours.

Wow that's insane, it would be easier going up over the Mackinaw Bridge. The southern route is really terrible traffic.

Quote from: captkirk_4 on September 25, 2018, 08:37:51 AM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 11, 2018, 09:26:10 AM

Quote from: invincor on September 11, 2018, 09:14:43 AM
The price per journey is incredibly high though, isn't it?   That's always put me off any thought of ever using it.

A family of four with a car round trip is nearly $500.  And it takes four hours.  I'm sure the experience is cool for a bit, but four hours is a long time IMO.  (It is shorter than driving if those are your final destinations however.)

The same family on the Lake Express is going to cost about $630 for two and a half hours.

Wow that's insane, it would be easier going up over the Mackinaw Bridge. The southern route is really terrible traffic.

That's probably why they figured they could gouge people.  I wonder what a similar 4-hour trip would cost on a ferry in a state with lots of them, say Washington or Alaska.  I think the SS Badger knew what their market competitors were (i.e. driving around Lake Michigan to the south or north) and determined their pricing based on that, rather than, oh I don't know, covering costs with a small margin for profit like most businesses.  I'm sure their prices would be much lower if there was a second competing ferry company in the same area (Milwaukee-Muskegon isn't really the same area).

Quote from: captkirk_4 on September 25, 2018, 08:37:51 AM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 11, 2018, 09:26:10 AM

Quote from: invincor on September 11, 2018, 09:14:43 AM
The price per journey is incredibly high though, isn't it?   That's always put me off any thought of ever using it.

A family of four with a car round trip is nearly $500.  And it takes four hours.  I'm sure the experience is cool for a bit, but four hours is a long time IMO.  (It is shorter than driving if those are your final destinations however.)

The same family on the Lake Express is going to cost about $630 for two and a half hours.

Wow that's insane, it would be easier going up over the Mackinaw Bridge. The southern route is really terrible traffic.

It doesn't really make sense to take the Badger carferry if you're going to or coming from a place other than the middle of Wisconsin or Michigan. If you're coming from the southwest or southeast (eg Iowa or Cleveland) then the southern route is the best option. If you're coming from the northwest (eg the Twin Cities), then taking the northern route might be a better option if you want less traffic, but then again most route maps suggest taking the Lake Express ferry instead of the Badger, simply because the trip only takes 2.5 hours instead of 4.

Quote from: paulthemapguy on September 25, 2018, 09:36:58 AM

Quote from: captkirk_4 on September 25, 2018, 08:37:51 AM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 11, 2018, 09:26:10 AM

Quote from: invincor on September 11, 2018, 09:14:43 AM
The price per journey is incredibly high though, isn't it?   That's always put me off any thought of ever using it.

A family of four with a car round trip is nearly $500.  And it takes four hours.  I'm sure the experience is cool for a bit, but four hours is a long time IMO.  (It is shorter than driving if those are your final destinations however.)

The same family on the Lake Express is going to cost about $630 for two and a half hours.

Wow that's insane, it would be easier going up over the Mackinaw Bridge. The southern route is really terrible traffic.

That's probably why they figured they could gouge people.  I wonder what a similar 4-hour trip would cost on a ferry in a state with lots of them, say Washington or Alaska.  I think the SS Badger knew what their market competitors were (i.e. driving around Lake Michigan to the south or north) and determined their pricing based on that, rather than, oh I don't know, covering costs with a small margin for profit like most businesses.  I'm sure their prices would be much lower if there was a second competing ferry company in the same area (Milwaukee-Muskegon isn't really the same area).

Actually most businesses will charge whatever the market will pay to maximize their revenues.  If SS Badger is so profitable, other players can enter the market.  But I don't think it is nearly as profitable as you are portraying.

jzn110 has the correct take on this.  It's mostly used for tourism.

Quote from: captkirk_4 on September 25, 2018, 08:37:51 AM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 11, 2018, 09:26:10 AM

Quote from: invincor on September 11, 2018, 09:14:43 AM
The price per journey is incredibly high though, isn't it?   That's always put me off any thought of ever using it.

A family of four with a car round trip is nearly $500.  And it takes four hours.  I'm sure the experience is cool for a bit, but four hours is a long time IMO.  (It is shorter than driving if those are your final destinations however.)

The same family on the Lake Express is going to cost about $630 for two and a half hours.

Wow that's insane, it would be easier going up over the Mackinaw Bridge. The southern route is really terrible traffic.

Only if you hit at the wrong time of day.  (Morning or evening rush.)  Otherwise, the Bridge is so far east that it isn't really a viable option.

I assume it costs a lot of money to keep that old boat moving with its antiquated, coal-powered boiler.  Lots of specialized maintenance.

I've traveled both ferries a couple times.  Soooooo much more relaxing than driving through the rat race in Chicago.  Yeah it was expensive, but how much is your sanity worth?

Quote from: triplemultiplex on September 25, 2018, 03:20:44 PMI've traveled both ferries a couple times.  Soooooo much more relaxing than driving through the rat race in Chicago.  Yeah it was expensive, but how much is your sanity worth?

I found it easy enough to get from our home on the North Side to my in-laws' house in Holland and back, provided we left at the right time of day. Now that they live in Valparaiso, life is much simpler.

It's a different drive when one is already used to the madness.

Quote from: hbelkins on September 15, 2018, 10:46:59 PM
I could probably get a discount since I have a relative in high places there, but the fact that they don't let you park your car yourself (and apparently don't allow access to it during the trip) is a major turn-off for me.

No vehicle access while underway is standard practice for larger vessels with separate vehicle and passenger decks. On really long journeys (like the six-day trip from Washington state to Homer AK), there will be occasional opportunities for supervised trips down to your vehicle to walk your dogs, etc. (no pets allowed on the passenger deck), as well as brief visits while the ship is in port (https://www.dot.state.ak.us/amhs/policies.shtml). But "no parking your own car on the vehicle deck" is definitely unusual.

Quote from: captkirk_4 on September 25, 2018, 08:37:51 AM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 11, 2018, 09:26:10 AM

Quote from: invincor on September 11, 2018, 09:14:43 AM
The price per journey is incredibly high though, isn't it?   That's always put me off any thought of ever using it.

A family of four with a car round trip is nearly $500.  And it takes four hours.  I'm sure the experience is cool for a bit, but four hours is a long time IMO.  (It is shorter than driving if those are your final destinations however.)

The same family on the Lake Express is going to cost about $630 for two and a half hours.

Wow that's insane, it would be easier going up over the Mackinaw Bridge. The southern route is really terrible traffic.

Not really, going over the Mackinac Bridge from Ludington to Manitowoc is going to take around 8 and a half hours (515 miles). Going through Chicago it's going to take you around 6 and a half hours (419 miles). Taking the ferry is going to take you around 3 hours and 40 minutes (62.5 miles and you don't use any gas or put any miles on your car) but yes it's expensive.

And don't forget the Chief Wawatam, the black-smoke belching railroad ferry that was still running across the Straits of Mackinac in the 1960's and 70's, possibly as late as 1984.  It was cut down to a barge, and you would sometimes see it carrying rolls of steel from the Algoma Steel (now owned by Essar) plant in Sault Ste Marie, Ontario.  The Chief was scrapped in 2009, after 98 total years of service.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 25, 2018, 02:28:03 PM
Actually most businesses will charge whatever the market will pay to maximize their revenues.  If SS Badger is so profitable, other players can enter the market.  But I don't think it is nearly as profitable as you are portraying.

jzn110 has the correct take on this.  It's mostly used for tourism.

Quote from: triplemultiplex on September 25, 2018, 03:20:44 PM
I assume it costs a lot of money to keep that old boat moving with its antiquated, coal-powered boiler.  Lots of specialized maintenance.

If maximizing profitability was the Badger's primary concern, they'd have converted the engines years ago, possibly even to diesel, but instead they're keeping the coal-fired engines going for their historical significance. They even invested a large amount of money a couple years ago into a system that safely contains the coal ash onboard the ship to be disposed of in port so that the ship could remain in compliance with the EPA (ash was previously just dumped overboard as it was cleaned out of the boilers).

That said, both the Badger and the Lake Express are profitable operations, but neither discloses what their profits actually are for competitive reasons.

Quote from: edwaleni on September 14, 2018, 08:32:42 PM
For the trivia minded.

In 1977 after nearly 3 months of sub-freezing weather, the lower portion of Lake Michigan froze over.  All 60 miles from Chicago over to the Michigan side.

On a dare, a man drove his car out onto the ice on the Michigan side and drove across the lake. People in the Chicago high rises started calling the police that there was a car coming into town from the lake side.  As he pulled up into Grant Park, the CPD arrested him.

On what charge?  Driving off-road in the park?  Go up to the northern states, and you'll see ice fishers driving on frozen lakes all over the place.

Quote from: kphoger on September 26, 2018, 09:51:51 AM

Quote from: edwaleni on September 14, 2018, 08:32:42 PM
For the trivia minded.

In 1977 after nearly 3 months of sub-freezing weather, the lower portion of Lake Michigan froze over.  All 60 miles from Chicago over to the Michigan side.

On a dare, a man drove his car out onto the ice on the Michigan side and drove across the lake. People in the Chicago high rises started calling the police that there was a car coming into town from the lake side.  As he pulled up into Grant Park, the CPD arrested him.

On what charge?  Driving off-road in the park?  Go up to the northern states, and you'll see ice fishers driving on frozen lakes all over the place.

Can confirm. I saw people ice fishing on Lake Michigan when I lived in Manitowoc.

You ain't really lived in the upper midwest until you've driven on a frozen lake.
I do it pretty much every winter.  Of course, I go ice fishing so I have a reason to.

Quote from: kphoger on September 26, 2018, 09:51:51 AM

Quote from: edwaleni on September 14, 2018, 08:32:42 PM
For the trivia minded.

In 1977 after nearly 3 months of sub-freezing weather, the lower portion of Lake Michigan froze over.  All 60 miles from Chicago over to the Michigan side.

On a dare, a man drove his car out onto the ice on the Michigan side and drove across the lake. People in the Chicago high rises started calling the police that there was a car coming into town from the lake side.  As he pulled up into Grant Park, the CPD arrested him.

On what charge?  Driving off-road in the park?  Go up to the northern states, and you'll see ice fishers driving on frozen lakes all over the place.

I can't remember the specific charges. 

Most of them were marine based if memory serves

- no boating license
- no marine registration
- vehicle in a public Parkway

The states attorney got in an argument about it because they couldn't decide to prosecute him under marine laws or motor vehicle.

Coast Guard didn't press any federal waterway violations because in their mind he was never waterborne.

I can't remember how it finished legally, I think he had to pay some fine.

I know the Badger didn't run for a couple of years in the early 1990s. During that time, was there ever discussion on renumbering the Michigan section of US-10 to either a 3dus (even though it would violate AASHTO's guidelines) or a state highway, such as an extended M-116 or M-25 or a second M-10 [with the Lodge possibly getting a different #]?

Quote from: ftballfan on November 28, 2018, 07:15:57 PM
I know the Badger didn't run for a couple of years in the early 1990s. During that time, was there ever discussion on renumbering the Michigan section of US-10 to either a 3dus (even though it would violate AASHTO's guidelines) or a state highway, such as an extended M-116 or M-25 or a second M-10 [with the Lodge possibly getting a different #]?

Not that I recall.

Quote from: ftballfan on November 28, 2018, 07:15:57 PM
I know the Badger didn't run for a couple of years in the early 1990s. During that time, was there ever discussion on renumbering the Michigan section of US-10 to either a 3dus (even though it would violate AASHTO's guidelines) or a state highway, such as an extended M-116 or M-25 or a second M-10 [with the Lodge possibly getting a different #]?

I don't think there was.

Quote from: triplemultiplex on September 27, 2018, 05:11:20 PM
You ain't really lived in the upper midwest until you've driven on a frozen lake.
I do it pretty much every winter.  Of course, I go ice fishing so I have a reason to.

An inland lake yes but not Lake Michigan.

Quote from: Flint1979 on December 07, 2018, 12:34:30 PM

Quote from: triplemultiplex on September 27, 2018, 05:11:20 PM
You ain't really lived in the upper midwest until you've driven on a frozen lake.
I do it pretty much every winter.  Of course, I go ice fishing so I have a reason to.

An inland lake yes but not Lake Michigan.

Green Bay, Sturgeon Bay, Little Bay de Noc; there are places to do it safely on Lake Michigan. ;)

Quote from: triplemultiplex on December 07, 2018, 12:40:16 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on December 07, 2018, 12:34:30 PM

Quote from: triplemultiplex on September 27, 2018, 05:11:20 PM
You ain't really lived in the upper midwest until you've driven on a frozen lake.
I do it pretty much every winter.  Of course, I go ice fishing so I have a reason to.

An inland lake yes but not Lake Michigan.

Green Bay, Sturgeon Bay, Little Bay de Noc; there are places to do it safely on Lake Michigan. ;)

Those bodies of water aren't as big as going 60-100 miles across Lake Michigan though. Green Bay for example is only 10 or 20 miles wide. Lake Michigan simply wouldn't freeze over enough to even have stable enough ice to cross it. I'd say if it was another 500 or so miles north it would freeze over and be able to drive across.

Quote from: Flint1979 on December 07, 2018, 04:35:55 PM

Quote from: triplemultiplex on December 07, 2018, 12:40:16 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on December 07, 2018, 12:34:30 PM

Quote from: triplemultiplex on September 27, 2018, 05:11:20 PM
You ain't really lived in the upper midwest until you've driven on a frozen lake.
I do it pretty much every winter.  Of course, I go ice fishing so I have a reason to.

An inland lake yes but not Lake Michigan.

Green Bay, Sturgeon Bay, Little Bay de Noc; there are places to do it safely on Lake Michigan. ;)

Those bodies of water aren't as big as going 60-100 miles across Lake Michigan though. Green Bay for example is only 10 or 20 miles wide. Lake Michigan simply wouldn't freeze over enough to even have stable enough ice to cross it. I'd say if it was another 500 or so miles north it would freeze over and be able to drive across.

He said "on a frozen lake."  Not "across."

Quote from: SEWIGuy on December 07, 2018, 09:11:53 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on December 07, 2018, 04:35:55 PM

Quote from: triplemultiplex on December 07, 2018, 12:40:16 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on December 07, 2018, 12:34:30 PM

Quote from: triplemultiplex on September 27, 2018, 05:11:20 PM
You ain't really lived in the upper midwest until you've driven on a frozen lake.
I do it pretty much every winter.  Of course, I go ice fishing so I have a reason to.

An inland lake yes but not Lake Michigan.

Green Bay, Sturgeon Bay, Little Bay de Noc; there are places to do it safely on Lake Michigan. ;)

Those bodies of water aren't as big as going 60-100 miles across Lake Michigan though. Green Bay for example is only 10 or 20 miles wide. Lake Michigan simply wouldn't freeze over enough to even have stable enough ice to cross it. I'd say if it was another 500 or so miles north it would freeze over and be able to drive across.

He said "on a frozen lake."  Not "across."

Lake Michigan still (partially) freezes over during the winter. It never freezes over completely though. It's gotten really close though (around 90-95%). The last time that happened was the winter 2013-14 when it was insanely cold.

Lake Michigan has and does freeze over completely at the far south end between Michigan and Illinois.

It doesn't happen very often and the temps have to stay below freezing for an extended period for it occur.

The only exception is in Indiana near the BP refinery and Gary Steel Works where effluent from the Little Calumet River enters the lake well above freezing and so the water stays liquefied.

However there is a part of Lake Michigan between Michigan and Wisconsin that will never freeze simply because the water is just too deep and turns over frequently which inhibits it from icing up.

Anyone who has scuba dived at the southern end knows that it is relatively shallow there. In fact there is an area of petrified tree stumps on the lake bottom that date back to a pre-glacial forest.

This relative shallowness and lack of turnover is why it tends to freeze over and when it does it can be very solid.

From where I live to Ludington, this is how long each route would take:
via SS Badger: 6 hours
via Lake Express: 4 hours 45 minutes
via Mackinac Bridge: 9 hours 30 minutes, depending on if the bridge is raised or not
via Southern route: 5 hours 45 minutes

Overall, I would probably choose to go through Chicago since I'm not paying $630 to save one hour.  :confused:

Quote from: thspfc on March 31, 2019, 11:04:44 AM
From where I live to Ludington, this is how long each route would take:
...
via Mackinac Bridge: 9 hours 30 minutes, depending on if the bridge is raised or not
... :confused:

You are confused.  The Mackinac Bridge is a fixed suspension bridge.  It cannot be raised, and is not likely to be the cause of any delay except in case of inclement weather.  For more information:  https://www.mackinacbridge.org

Quote from: renegade on March 31, 2019, 02:08:34 PM

Quote from: thspfc on March 31, 2019, 11:04:44 AM
From where I live to Ludington, this is how long each route would take:
...
via Mackinac Bridge: 9 hours 30 minutes, depending on if the bridge is raised or not
... :confused:

You are confused.  The Mackinac Bridge is a fixed suspension bridge.  It cannot be raised, and is not likely to be the cause of any delay except in case of inclement weather.  For more information:  https://www.mackinacbridge.org

I didn't know that. I just remember a long traffic jam at the bridge several years ago, so I associated that with it being a drawbridge, I guess.  :pan:

Quote from: thspfc on March 31, 2019, 04:37:21 PM

Quote from: renegade on March 31, 2019, 02:08:34 PM

Quote from: thspfc on March 31, 2019, 11:04:44 AM
From where I live to Ludington, this is how long each route would take:
...
via Mackinac Bridge: 9 hours 30 minutes, depending on if the bridge is raised or not
... :confused:

You are confused.  The Mackinac Bridge is a fixed suspension bridge.  It cannot be raised, and is not likely to be the cause of any delay except in case of inclement weather.  For more information:  https://www.mackinacbridge.org

I didn't know that. I just remember a long traffic jam at the bridge several years ago, so I associated that with it being a drawbridge, I guess.  :pan:

There used to be a drawbridge on I-75, but it was a couple hundred miles south, near Saginaw, and it was removed in the mid-1980s, IIRC. 

Quote from: renegade on March 31, 2019, 08:00:19 PM

Quote from: thspfc on March 31, 2019, 04:37:21 PM

Quote from: renegade on March 31, 2019, 02:08:34 PM

Quote from: thspfc on March 31, 2019, 11:04:44 AM
From where I live to Ludington, this is how long each route would take:
...
via Mackinac Bridge: 9 hours 30 minutes, depending on if the bridge is raised or not
... :confused:

You are confused.  The Mackinac Bridge is a fixed suspension bridge.  It cannot be raised, and is not likely to be the cause of any delay except in case of inclement weather.  For more information:  https://www.mackinacbridge.org

I didn't know that. I just remember a long traffic jam at the bridge several years ago, so I associated that with it being a drawbridge, I guess.  :pan:

There used to be a drawbridge on I-75, but it was a couple hundred miles south, near Saginaw, and it was removed in the mid-1980s, IIRC. 

Wasn't through traffic directed to I-675 (which has a fixed span) during that period for this reason?

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on March 31, 2019, 08:41:12 PM

Quote from: renegade on March 31, 2019, 08:00:19 PM

Quote from: thspfc on March 31, 2019, 04:37:21 PM

Quote from: renegade on March 31, 2019, 02:08:34 PM

Quote from: thspfc on March 31, 2019, 11:04:44 AM
From where I live to Ludington, this is how long each route would take:
...
via Mackinac Bridge: 9 hours 30 minutes, depending on if the bridge is raised or not
... :confused:

You are confused.  The Mackinac Bridge is a fixed suspension bridge.  It cannot be raised, and is not likely to be the cause of any delay except in case of inclement weather.  For more information:  https://www.mackinacbridge.org

I didn't know that. I just remember a long traffic jam at the bridge several years ago, so I associated that with it being a drawbridge, I guess.  :pan:

There used to be a drawbridge on I-75, but it was a couple hundred miles south, near Saginaw, and it was removed in the mid-1980s, IIRC. 

Wasn't through traffic directed to I-675 (which has a fixed span) during that period for this reason?

Yes it was, hence why it was built in the first place.

Quote from: edwaleni on December 08, 2018, 12:54:53 AM
Lake Michigan has and does freeze over completely at the far south end between Michigan and Illinois.

It doesn't happen very often and the temps have to stay below freezing for an extended period for it occur.

The only exception is in Indiana near the BP refinery and Gary Steel Works where effluent from the Little Calumet River enters the lake well above freezing and so the water stays liquefied.

However there is a part of Lake Michigan between Michigan and Wisconsin that will never freeze simply because the water is just too deep and turns over frequently which inhibits it from icing up.

Anyone who has scuba dived at the southern end knows that it is relatively shallow there. In fact there is an area of petrified tree stumps on the lake bottom that date back to a pre-glacial forest.

This relative shallowness and lack of turnover is why it tends to freeze over and when it does it can be very solid.

No matter how cold it gets, attempting to drive across Lake Michigan would be a very dangerous (and foolish) undertaking.  For one thing, the ice thickness can vary radically as you travel across the lake. You get thin spots and you get large patches that never freeze.  And then there are the compression ridges that will block your path entirely.  As fun of an idea as this sounds, there's a reason why it isn't done.

Lake Michigan isn't between any state, it's in Michigan, Wisconsin, Illinois and Indiana it's not in between them. The borders for each of these states is in the middle of Lake Michigan.

Quote from: renegade on March 31, 2019, 08:00:19 PM

Quote from: thspfc on March 31, 2019, 04:37:21 PM

Quote from: renegade on March 31, 2019, 02:08:34 PM

Quote from: thspfc on March 31, 2019, 11:04:44 AM
From where I live to Ludington, this is how long each route would take:
...
via Mackinac Bridge: 9 hours 30 minutes, depending on if the bridge is raised or not
... :confused:

You are confused.  The Mackinac Bridge is a fixed suspension bridge.  It cannot be raised, and is not likely to be the cause of any delay except in case of inclement weather.  For more information:  https://www.mackinacbridge.org

I didn't know that. I just remember a long traffic jam at the bridge several years ago, so I associated that with it being a drawbridge, I guess.  :pan:

There used to be a drawbridge on I-75, but it was a couple hundred miles south, near Saginaw, and it was removed in the mid-1980s, IIRC.

That's in my hometown and I pretty much watched the new bridge being built. They had a construction accident on the new bridge where they had to get a new crew to come in and finish the bridge. The opening was delayed by a few years. It opened in 1988 though. The old bridge was a drawbridge that opened frequently since they were still using the Saginaw River south of there but now they aren't using it south of the bridge anymore so the bridge wouldn't be opened as much today. The old drawbridge would have been between MM 153 and 154.

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on March 31, 2019, 08:41:12 PM

Quote from: renegade on March 31, 2019, 08:00:19 PM

Quote from: thspfc on March 31, 2019, 04:37:21 PM

Quote from: renegade on March 31, 2019, 02:08:34 PM

Quote from: thspfc on March 31, 2019, 11:04:44 AM
From where I live to Ludington, this is how long each route would take:
...
via Mackinac Bridge: 9 hours 30 minutes, depending on if the bridge is raised or not
... :confused:

You are confused.  The Mackinac Bridge is a fixed suspension bridge.  It cannot be raised, and is not likely to be the cause of any delay except in case of inclement weather.  For more information:  https://www.mackinacbridge.org

I didn't know that. I just remember a long traffic jam at the bridge several years ago, so I associated that with it being a drawbridge, I guess.  :pan:

There used to be a drawbridge on I-75, but it was a couple hundred miles south, near Saginaw, and it was removed in the mid-1980s, IIRC. 

Wasn't through traffic directed to I-675 (which has a fixed span) during that period for this reason?

That's one of the reasons that I-675 was built was to bypass the drawbridge, the other reason was to allow easier access to downtown Saginaw. I-675 crosses the Saginaw River on a fixed span. All the bridges in Saginaw are fixed spans but all the bridges in Bay City are drawbridges. I-675 was used about 10 years ago for awhile for through traffic on I-75 while they maintained the Zilwaukee Bridge (which is the replacement for the drawbridge).

Holding company buys Lake Michigan car ferry SS Badger
https://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/2020/12/ss-badger-car-ferry-under-new-ownership-but-mission-remains-the-same.html

No word on whether a conversion to diesel power is in the cards, but from the article it sounds like the intent is to continue operation of the SS Badger.

Maybe the SS Badger ships should have US 10 signs painted on their hulls, as a way of paying homage to what route the ships are carrying across Lake Michigan.

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 02, 2021, 07:40:54 PM
Maybe the SS Badger ships should have US 10 signs painted on their hulls, as a way of paying homage to what route the ships are carrying across Lake Michigan.

I thought it had it on the awnings on deck. Wisconsin actually has a US 10 East shield on the ramp leading into the water, though I think Michigan signs it as US 10 ENDS.

I wasn't aware of that. The last time I sailed on an SS Badger ship was in 1992, when I was only 7 years old.

Guess I need to check with my cousin (his father and my father were first cousins, so I'm not sure if that makes us second cousins or first cousins once removed) who's the captain of the Badger to see if his employment will be impacted.

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on January 02, 2021, 07:41:56 PM

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 02, 2021, 07:40:54 PM
Maybe the SS Badger ships should have US 10 signs painted on their hulls, as a way of paying homage to what route the ships are carrying across Lake Michigan.

I thought it had it on the awnings on deck. Wisconsin actually has a US 10 East shield on the ramp leading into the water, though I think Michigan signs it as US 10 ENDS.

That is indeed how Michigan signs it. Not sure about the Wisconsin side though.

^ See my photos in the first post of this topic (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=23627.msg2355598#msg2355598).

Quote from: hbelkins on January 02, 2021, 10:55:40 PM
Guess I need to check with my cousin (his father and my father were first cousins, so I'm not sure if that makes us second cousins or first cousins once removed) who's the captain of the Badger to see if his employment will be impacted.

This should make you 2nd cousin - you share the same great-grandparents.  You and your father's cousin are first cousin, once removed.

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on January 02, 2021, 07:41:56 PM

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 02, 2021, 07:40:54 PM
Maybe the SS Badger ships should have US 10 signs painted on their hulls, as a way of paying homage to what route the ships are carrying across Lake Michigan.

I thought it had it on the awnings on deck. Wisconsin actually has a US 10 East shield on the ramp leading into the water, though I think Michigan signs it as US 10 ENDS.

They actually have a large US-10 shield painted on the seagate on the stern of the ship, next to its name and hailing port.

Quote from: jzn110 on February 13, 2021, 12:26:48 AM

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on January 02, 2021, 07:41:56 PM

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 02, 2021, 07:40:54 PM
Maybe the SS Badger ships should have US 10 signs painted on their hulls, as a way of paying homage to what route the ships are carrying across Lake Michigan.

I thought it had it on the awnings on deck. Wisconsin actually has a US 10 East shield on the ramp leading into the water, though I think Michigan signs it as US 10 ENDS.

They actually have a large US-10 shield painted on the seagate on the stern of the ship, next to its name and hailing port.

Michigan has no signage of an end of US 10 at Ludington

Quote from: SSOWorld on February 13, 2021, 09:59:13 AM

Quote from: jzn110 on February 13, 2021, 12:26:48 AM

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on January 02, 2021, 07:41:56 PM

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 02, 2021, 07:40:54 PM
Maybe the SS Badger ships should have US 10 signs painted on their hulls, as a way of paying homage to what route the ships are carrying across Lake Michigan.

I thought it had it on the awnings on deck. Wisconsin actually has a US 10 East shield on the ramp leading into the water, though I think Michigan signs it as US 10 ENDS.

They actually have a large US-10 shield painted on the seagate on the stern of the ship, next to its name and hailing port.

Michigan has no signage of an end of US 10 at Ludington

Actually it does.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.9486922,-86.4477621,3a,75y,203.42h,78.96t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGhCR-pyWwx6zdM6l6CEDZQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

So our family is going to Milwaukee on the 24th to see the White Sox play the Brewers. I've always wanted to do the ferry and thought this would be a good time to do it. Instead of driving back home on the 25th, we'll go up the coast to Manitowoc and ferry across to Ludington. Hotel for the night of the 25th is in Muskegon, as I'm a Marriott platinum member and there are no Marriott properties in Ludington. Total cost was $300.50 for 2 adults and 2 kids.

The family also may indulge me in a bit of highway clinching in IL, WI, and MI as part of the trip.

Quote from: cabiness42 on July 13, 2021, 01:43:01 PM
So our family is going to Milwaukee on the 24th to see the White Sox play the Brewers. I've always wanted to do the ferry and thought this would be a good time to do it. Instead of driving back home on the 25th, we'll go up the coast to Manitowoc and ferry across to Ludington. Hotel for the night of the 25th is in Muskegon, as I'm a Marriott platinum member and there are no Marriott properties in Ludington. Total cost was $300.50 for 2 adults and 2 kids.

The family also may indulge me in a bit of highway clinching in IL, WI, and MI as part of the trip.

I will be at the game that night as well.  Assuming you are a White Sox fan, I hope that is the lowlight of your trip.   :-D

Quote from: cabiness42 on July 13, 2021, 01:43:01 PM
Total cost was $300.50 for 2 adults and 2 kids.

For the game tickets, the lodging, or the ferry? Or for all three?

Quote from: hbelkins on July 13, 2021, 02:54:27 PM

Quote from: cabiness42 on July 13, 2021, 01:43:01 PM
Total cost was $300.50 for 2 adults and 2 kids.

For the game tickets, the lodging, or the ferry? Or for all three?

That cost was for the ferry, car +2 adults +2 kids.

Quote from: cabiness42 on July 13, 2021, 03:01:32 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on July 13, 2021, 02:54:27 PM

Quote from: cabiness42 on July 13, 2021, 01:43:01 PM
Total cost was $300.50 for 2 adults and 2 kids.

For the game tickets, the lodging, or the ferry? Or for all three?

That cost was for the ferry, car +2 adults +2 kids.

That seems very expensive (though possibly that would be mitigated by the couple tanks of gas you could save). Was the ferry busy at that price point?

Quote from: cabiness42 on July 13, 2021, 01:43:01 PM
So our family is going to Milwaukee on the 24th to see the White Sox play the Brewers. I've always wanted to do the ferry and thought this would be a good time to do it. Instead of driving back home on the 25th, we'll go up the coast to Manitowoc and ferry across to Ludington. Hotel for the night of the 25th is in Muskegon, as I'm a Marriott platinum member and there are no Marriott properties in Ludington. Total cost was $300.50 for 2 adults and 2 kids.

The family also may indulge me in a bit of highway clinching in IL, WI, and MI as part of the trip.

That seems about right. Anytime I've priced the Lake Express to Milwaukee the prices were always a bit steep I thought anyway. The price for putting your car on there is about the same price as an adult ticket I think off the top of my head it's around $75. Just remember the departure in Manitowoc is 2pm central time.

Quote from: zzcarp on July 13, 2021, 04:30:58 PM

Quote from: cabiness42 on July 13, 2021, 03:01:32 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on July 13, 2021, 02:54:27 PM

Quote from: cabiness42 on July 13, 2021, 01:43:01 PM
Total cost was $300.50 for 2 adults and 2 kids.

For the game tickets, the lodging, or the ferry? Or for all three?

That cost was for the ferry, car +2 adults +2 kids.

That seems very expensive (though possibly that would be mitigated by the couple tanks of gas you could save). Was the ferry busy at that price point?

We're not saving gas or time. It's just something fun to do.

Quote from: cabiness42 on July 13, 2021, 04:56:22 PM

Quote from: zzcarp on July 13, 2021, 04:30:58 PM

Quote from: cabiness42 on July 13, 2021, 03:01:32 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on July 13, 2021, 02:54:27 PM

Quote from: cabiness42 on July 13, 2021, 01:43:01 PM
Total cost was $300.50 for 2 adults and 2 kids.

For the game tickets, the lodging, or the ferry? Or for all three?

That cost was for the ferry, car +2 adults +2 kids.

That seems very expensive (though possibly that would be mitigated by the couple tanks of gas you could save). Was the ferry busy at that price point?

We're not saving gas or time. It's just something fun to do.

It does save you about four hours of driving. I've done the Lake Michigan Circle Tour before and that was fun but that involved driving too. As far as gas at least I know in my car that would be around a tank of gas to get from Manitowoc to Ludington so you are saving somewhat.

Quote from: Flint1979 on July 13, 2021, 04:59:54 PM
It does save you about four hours of driving. I've done the Lake Michigan Circle Tour before and that was fun but that involved driving too. As far as gas at least I know in my car that would be around a tank of gas to get from Manitowoc to Ludington so you are saving somewhat.

Saving hours of driving isn't the same thing as "saving time".  Unless you were already planning to leave at exactly right time of day.

Quote from: kphoger on July 13, 2021, 05:03:36 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on July 13, 2021, 04:59:54 PM
It does save you about four hours of driving. I've done the Lake Michigan Circle Tour before and that was fun but that involved driving too. As far as gas at least I know in my car that would be around a tank of gas to get from Manitowoc to Ludington so you are saving somewhat.

Saving hours of driving isn't the same thing as "saving time".  Unless you were already planning to leave at exactly right time of day.

Yeah just be there a little before 2pm central time or 9am eastern time in Ludington for the Michigan to Wisconsin trip.

Quote from: Flint1979 on July 13, 2021, 04:59:54 PM

Quote from: cabiness42 on July 13, 2021, 04:56:22 PM

Quote from: zzcarp on July 13, 2021, 04:30:58 PM

Quote from: cabiness42 on July 13, 2021, 03:01:32 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on July 13, 2021, 02:54:27 PM

Quote from: cabiness42 on July 13, 2021, 01:43:01 PM
Total cost was $300.50 for 2 adults and 2 kids.

For the game tickets, the lodging, or the ferry? Or for all three?

That cost was for the ferry, car +2 adults +2 kids.

That seems very expensive (though possibly that would be mitigated by the couple tanks of gas you could save). Was the ferry busy at that price point?

We're not saving gas or time. It's just something fun to do.

It does save you about four hours of driving. I've done the Lake Michigan Circle Tour before and that was fun but that involved driving too. As far as gas at least I know in my car that would be around a tank of gas to get from Manitowoc to Ludington so you are saving somewhat.

We weren't already going to be in Manitowoc, we're driving there from Milwuakee specifically to take the ferry. It's essentially adding an extra day to our trip.

Quote from: cabiness42 on July 13, 2021, 03:01:32 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on July 13, 2021, 02:54:27 PM

Quote from: cabiness42 on July 13, 2021, 01:43:01 PM
Total cost was $300.50 for 2 adults and 2 kids.

For the game tickets, the lodging, or the ferry? Or for all three?

That cost was for the ferry, car +2 adults +2 kids.

Unless I get the family discount (my cousin, retired from the Coast Guard, is the captain of the Badger) then that's too rich for my blood.

I can't remember how much I paid to use the Cape May-Lewes Ferry 11 years ago, but it was certainly nowhere near that amount.

Quote from: cabiness42 on July 13, 2021, 08:00:54 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on July 13, 2021, 04:59:54 PM

Quote from: cabiness42 on July 13, 2021, 04:56:22 PM

Quote from: zzcarp on July 13, 2021, 04:30:58 PM

Quote from: cabiness42 on July 13, 2021, 03:01:32 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on July 13, 2021, 02:54:27 PM

Quote from: cabiness42 on July 13, 2021, 01:43:01 PM
Total cost was $300.50 for 2 adults and 2 kids.

For the game tickets, the lodging, or the ferry? Or for all three?

That cost was for the ferry, car +2 adults +2 kids.

That seems very expensive (though possibly that would be mitigated by the couple tanks of gas you could save). Was the ferry busy at that price point?

We're not saving gas or time. It's just something fun to do.

It does save you about four hours of driving. I've done the Lake Michigan Circle Tour before and that was fun but that involved driving too. As far as gas at least I know in my car that would be around a tank of gas to get from Manitowoc to Ludington so you are saving somewhat.

We weren't already going to be in Manitowoc, we're driving there from Milwuakee specifically to take the ferry. It's essentially adding an extra day to our trip.

Is it this ferry you want to take? I'm only asking that because if you want to take a ferry across Lake Michigan from Milwaukee the Lake Express runs to Muskegon and gets across the lake in half the time that the SS Badger does. I'm just assuming though that you want to take the SS Badger.

Quote from: Flint1979 on July 13, 2021, 10:02:15 PM

Quote from: cabiness42 on July 13, 2021, 08:00:54 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on July 13, 2021, 04:59:54 PM

Quote from: cabiness42 on July 13, 2021, 04:56:22 PM

Quote from: zzcarp on July 13, 2021, 04:30:58 PM

Quote from: cabiness42 on July 13, 2021, 03:01:32 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on July 13, 2021, 02:54:27 PM

Quote from: cabiness42 on July 13, 2021, 01:43:01 PM
Total cost was $300.50 for 2 adults and 2 kids.

For the game tickets, the lodging, or the ferry? Or for all three?

That cost was for the ferry, car +2 adults +2 kids.

That seems very expensive (though possibly that would be mitigated by the couple tanks of gas you could save). Was the ferry busy at that price point?

We're not saving gas or time. It's just something fun to do.

It does save you about four hours of driving. I've done the Lake Michigan Circle Tour before and that was fun but that involved driving too. As far as gas at least I know in my car that would be around a tank of gas to get from Manitowoc to Ludington so you are saving somewhat.

We weren't already going to be in Manitowoc, we're driving there from Milwuakee specifically to take the ferry. It's essentially adding an extra day to our trip.

Is it this ferry you want to take? I'm only asking that because if you want to take a ferry across Lake Michigan from Milwaukee the Lake Express runs to Muskegon and gets across the lake in half the time that the SS Badger does. I'm just assuming though that you want to take the SS Badger.

Yes, the SS Badger specifically due to its connection with US 10.

Quote from: cabiness42 on July 13, 2021, 01:43:01 PM
So our family is going to Milwaukee on the 24th to see the White Sox play the Brewers. I've always wanted to do the ferry and thought this would be a good time to do it. Instead of driving back home on the 25th, we'll go up the coast to Manitowoc and ferry across to Ludington. Hotel for the night of the 25th is in Muskegon, as I'm a Marriott platinum member and there are no Marriott properties in Ludington. Total cost was $300.50 for 2 adults and 2 kids.

The family also may indulge me in a bit of highway clinching in IL, WI, and MI as part of the trip.

I was going to go up to Milwaukee for a game in that series too, but I'm heading out to the other corner of the state to move some things in for university.

I hope they're back to serving food on the Badger. That's part of the charm!

Also make sure you snap a photo of the East US-10 shield on the Wisconsin side next to the loading dock.  :)

Quote from: cabiness42 on July 14, 2021, 07:20:48 AM

Quote from: Flint1979 on July 13, 2021, 10:02:15 PM

Quote from: cabiness42 on July 13, 2021, 08:00:54 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on July 13, 2021, 04:59:54 PM

Quote from: cabiness42 on July 13, 2021, 04:56:22 PM

Quote from: zzcarp on July 13, 2021, 04:30:58 PM

Quote from: cabiness42 on July 13, 2021, 03:01:32 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on July 13, 2021, 02:54:27 PM

Quote from: cabiness42 on July 13, 2021, 01:43:01 PM
Total cost was $300.50 for 2 adults and 2 kids.

For the game tickets, the lodging, or the ferry? Or for all three?

That cost was for the ferry, car +2 adults +2 kids.

That seems very expensive (though possibly that would be mitigated by the couple tanks of gas you could save). Was the ferry busy at that price point?

We're not saving gas or time. It's just something fun to do.

It does save you about four hours of driving. I've done the Lake Michigan Circle Tour before and that was fun but that involved driving too. As far as gas at least I know in my car that would be around a tank of gas to get from Manitowoc to Ludington so you are saving somewhat.

We weren't already going to be in Manitowoc, we're driving there from Milwuakee specifically to take the ferry. It's essentially adding an extra day to our trip.

Is it this ferry you want to take? I'm only asking that because if you want to take a ferry across Lake Michigan from Milwaukee the Lake Express runs to Muskegon and gets across the lake in half the time that the SS Badger does. I'm just assuming though that you want to take the SS Badger.

Yes, the SS Badger specifically due to its connection with US 10.

If you are into clinching US-10 on the Michigan side it's 140 miles from Ludington to Bay City. Not sure if that was on your radar or not though. It's a freeway for almost half that distance too.

Here's my report from our trip across Lake Michigan:

The check-in/boarding process is very easy and well-organized. Cars line up on the approach road, and workers go up the line checking in the vehicles in line. At about 75 minutes before departure, cars were directed to specific spots, where you leave the vehicle with the keys in the car and one window down just in case the car accidentally locks.

We then proceeded to the person check-in line, which moved quickly. The boarding of the boat is about two flights of stairs. There is a chair lift for those who can't do the stairs. (I needed this as I'm suffering some mobility issues right now)

The main deck of the boat has a large common room, where the food/drink service is and where bingo was played. The food was essentially concession stand food (hot dogs, pizza, nachos, pretzels, small salads, fruit cups) There are two smaller TV lounges and a movie lounge. There is a game room, museum room, and toddler room. The space at the rear of the deck is open on the sides with the upper deck above. The main deck also has private cabins that cost extra which we did not get.

I didn't go up to the upper deck, but my kids report that it is just a large, open-air seating area.

Unfortunately for us, this was one of the hottest days of the year, and the boat is understandably not air conditioned as this is one of very few days where it would have been necessary. The large common room and the two TV lounges had fans, and as you might expect, seating in those rooms was hard to come by.

For me, the coolest part of the trip was the middle third, where you are far enough from either coast that you can't see land in any direction. I can't think of anywhere else in the US where you can experience this.

The trip is 4 hours from shore to shore, and with the time spent boarding, disembarking and waiting on your car, it's about a 6 hour commitment.

Is it faster than driving? Yes, by 30-90 minutes depending on Chicago traffic. Is it cheaper? No. Is it less stressful? Yes.

Not something I'd do on a regular basis but it was fun to do once.

Quote from: cabiness42 on July 26, 2021, 08:34:20 PM
The check-in/boarding process is very easy and well-organized. Cars line up on the approach road, and workers go up the line checking in the vehicles in line. At about 75 minutes before departure, cars were directed to specific spots, where you leave the vehicle with the keys in the car and one window down just in case the car accidentally locks.

That feels sketchy to me.  What if it rains, a bug gets in the car, someone goes by the car and wants to steal something, a thief drives off with the car, etc.?

Quote from: vdeane on July 26, 2021, 09:01:23 PM

Quote from: cabiness42 on July 26, 2021, 08:34:20 PM
The check-in/boarding process is very easy and well-organized. Cars line up on the approach road, and workers go up the line checking in the vehicles in line. At about 75 minutes before departure, cars were directed to specific spots, where you leave the vehicle with the keys in the car and one window down just in case the car accidentally locks.

That feels sketchy to me.  What if it rains, a bug gets in the car, someone goes by the car and wants to steal something, a thief drives off with the car, etc.?

You aren't allowed to go to your car during the trip or when your car is parked so the possibility of someone stealing something would be an employee or someone that somehow snuck into the area where they aren't suppose to be. I believe it is in a covered area as well.

Quote from: vdeane on July 26, 2021, 09:01:23 PM

Quote from: cabiness42 on July 26, 2021, 08:34:20 PM
The check-in/boarding process is very easy and well-organized. Cars line up on the approach road, and workers go up the line checking in the vehicles in line. At about 75 minutes before departure, cars were directed to specific spots, where you leave the vehicle with the keys in the car and one window down just in case the car accidentally locks.

That feels sketchy to me.  What if it rains, a bug gets in the car, someone goes by the car and wants to steal something, a thief drives off with the car, etc.?

The cars are all lined up on a grid. only the cars in the front and back rows could possibly be driven anywhere, and there are plenty of employees all over the lot.

Maybe they don't require the windows down in the rain, I don't know.

Quote from: Flint1979 on July 26, 2021, 09:04:08 PM

Quote from: vdeane on July 26, 2021, 09:01:23 PM

Quote from: cabiness42 on July 26, 2021, 08:34:20 PM
The check-in/boarding process is very easy and well-organized. Cars line up on the approach road, and workers go up the line checking in the vehicles in line. At about 75 minutes before departure, cars were directed to specific spots, where you leave the vehicle with the keys in the car and one window down just in case the car accidentally locks.

That feels sketchy to me.  What if it rains, a bug gets in the car, someone goes by the car and wants to steal something, a thief drives off with the car, etc.?

You aren't allowed to go to your car during the trip or when your car is parked so the possibility of someone stealing something would be an employee or someone that somehow snuck into the area where they aren't suppose to be. I believe it is in a covered area as well.

I guess I didn't clarify. You park in the lot right in front of the boat. The boat employees drive your car on and park it. They put the windows up and lock the car once it's on the boat.

What about when people are leaving/getting their cars?  How is anyone to tell the difference between someone getting something at the last minute before vehicles are loaded and someone stealing something?  You can't.  In any case, I don't like valet parking either; I'd much rather just drive the vehicle on and lock up myself.

Quote from: vdeane on July 26, 2021, 09:13:27 PM
What about when people are leaving/getting their cars?  How is anyone to tell the difference between someone getting something at the last minute before vehicles are loaded and someone stealing something?  You can't.  In any case, I don't like valet parking either; I'd much rather just drive the vehicle on and lock up myself.

The people are off the boat and waiting before the cars come off, so you're sitting right there if someone were to try to get the wrong car.

There's no way they're ever letting people drive their own cars onto the boat, so this probably isn't for you.

Quote from: cabiness42 on July 26, 2021, 09:07:46 PM

Quote from: Flint1979 on July 26, 2021, 09:04:08 PM

Quote from: vdeane on July 26, 2021, 09:01:23 PM

Quote from: cabiness42 on July 26, 2021, 08:34:20 PM
The check-in/boarding process is very easy and well-organized. Cars line up on the approach road, and workers go up the line checking in the vehicles in line. At about 75 minutes before departure, cars were directed to specific spots, where you leave the vehicle with the keys in the car and one window down just in case the car accidentally locks.

That feels sketchy to me.  What if it rains, a bug gets in the car, someone goes by the car and wants to steal something, a thief drives off with the car, etc.?

You aren't allowed to go to your car during the trip or when your car is parked so the possibility of someone stealing something would be an employee or someone that somehow snuck into the area where they aren't suppose to be. I believe it is in a covered area as well.

I guess I didn't clarify. You park in the lot right in front of the boat. The boat employees drive your car on and park it. They put the windows up and lock the car once it's on the boat.

I believe you did say that and that is how it's done I've watched them do it in Ludington lots of times.

Quote from: vdeane on July 26, 2021, 09:13:27 PM
What about when people are leaving/getting their cars?  How is anyone to tell the difference between someone getting something at the last minute before vehicles are loaded and someone stealing something?  You can't.  In any case, I don't like valet parking either; I'd much rather just drive the vehicle on and lock up myself.

Everyone is off the boat when they drive the cars off so you are going to be right there to get into your car and continue your journey along US-10. You aren't allowed to go back to your car to get anything and they drive the cars onto the boat I don't see any point where they would allow anyone to drive their own vehicle onto the boat.

This ferry is mostly a tourist thing anyway, for faster service across Lake Michigan most people use the Lake Express between Muskegon and Milwaukee.

Quote from: vdeane on July 26, 2021, 09:13:27 PM
What about when people are leaving/getting their cars?  How is anyone to tell the difference between someone getting something at the last minute before vehicles are loaded and someone stealing something?  You can't.  In any case, I don't like valet parking either; I'd much rather just drive the vehicle on and lock up myself.

Yeah I'm sure the SS Badger has never thought of these possibilities before.  :crazy: :crazy:

Quote from: Flint1979 on July 26, 2021, 09:23:52 PM

Quote from: vdeane on July 26, 2021, 09:13:27 PM
What about when people are leaving/getting their cars?  How is anyone to tell the difference between someone getting something at the last minute before vehicles are loaded and someone stealing something?  You can't.  In any case, I don't like valet parking either; I'd much rather just drive the vehicle on and lock up myself.

Everyone is off the boat when they drive the cars off so you are going to be right there to get into your car and continue your journey along US-10. You aren't allowed to go back to your car to get anything and they drive the cars onto the boat I don't see any point where they would allow anyone to drive their own vehicle onto the boat.

This ferry is mostly a tourist thing anyway, for faster service across Lake Michigan most people use the Lake Express between Muskegon and Milwaukee.

And when they drive the cars on?  Unless the guy just drives your car when you get out (in which case, no need to leave the keys in with the windows down), there is a time between when you leave the car and when the car is driven onto the boat.

Already answered by this observation:

Quote from: cabiness42 on July 26, 2021, 09:05:45 PM
... and there are plenty of employees all over the lot.

Quote from: kphoger on July 27, 2021, 03:57:08 PM
Already answered by this observation:

Quote from: cabiness42 on July 26, 2021, 09:05:45 PM
... and there are plenty of employees all over the lot.

How would they know who owns which car?

Again, why are you asking all of these hypotheticals?  There isn't chronic car theft on the SS Badger.  I can't even recall one incident.  I'm sure they have their system down.

Well, I imagine that any person stopping at any vehicle would raise suspicion, considering that all drivers at that point are heading to the passenger check-in, with no good reason to stop along the way.

Usually, you can board the vessel with enough time to go to the stern of the ship and watch them drive your car aboard.  That's been my experience.

The queuing area for the vehicles is restricted to passengers and personnel, so you're got going to have randos snooping around.  Plus they have security cams.  Beside it's not like one is going to just leave valuable stuff out in plain sight.  That'd be dumb for any place you leave your car.

(https://frinkiac.com/video/S10E13/MUKf_1q-Vu3Kquwsoz5cI4spY54=.gif)

Did the ferry have any announcements for car owners who needed to silence their alarms? It's a not-infrequent occurrence on Washington State Ferries (where drivers are allowed to stay in their cars, or have in-and-out access from the decks).

Quote from: Bruce on July 27, 2021, 04:26:32 PM
Did the ferry have any announcements for car owners who needed to silence their alarms? It's a not-infrequent occurrence on Washington State Ferries (where drivers are allowed to stay in their cars, or have in-and-out access from the decks).

I didn't see or hear any instructions regarding alarms.

Just saw that the Badger's operations have been suspended until August 19th.  I don't know when this started.

Quote
For the safety of our Passengers and Crew we have suspended sailings until August 19th due to a Crew Member exposed to and later testing positive for COVID-19.

Ramp system damaged and operations suspended until next year.
https://fox11online.com/news/local/unexpected-damage-suspends-ss-badger-operations-for-the-season-mantiowoc-ludington-michigan-lake-wisconsin-carferry#

It's disappointing that the parent company never saw fit to bring in a sister ferry before the S.S. Badger had its ramp failure. It's the only cross-lake ferry that accepts RVs, travel trailers, and semi trucks. Even some passenger cars are too long to go on the Milwaukee-Muskegon ferry.

Clearly the heyday of this lake crossing is behind it; I didn't know until recently the S.S. Badger used to do year-round crossings. The period they run the twice-daily crossings has also dwindled down significantly over time. Obviously, having competition closer to a bigger population of likely users also limits their ability to compete. Having grandfathered-in coal boilers also doesn't help matters.

I would love to see a rethink of the Manitowoc-Ludington crossing with smaller, faster ferries still capable of handling semis and farm equipment, running more frequent daily crossings. But I have to wonder if the next news article about this isn't an announcement that the S.S. Badger won't be back at all in 2024, with no replacement vessels.  It would be a blow to both Manitowoc and Ludington, particularly Ludington.

I'm glad I made the crossing a few years ago. I wonder if I'll get another opportunity.

Quote from: JREwing78 on August 02, 2023, 10:40:01 AM
It's disappointing that the parent company never saw fit to bring in a sister ferry before the S.S. Badger had its ramp failure. It's the only cross-lake ferry that accepts RVs, travel trailers, and semi trucks. Even some passenger cars are too long to go on the Milwaukee-Muskegon ferry.

Clearly the heyday of this lake crossing is behind it; I didn't know until recently the S.S. Badger used to do year-round crossings. The period they run the twice-daily crossings has also dwindled down significantly over time. Obviously, having competition closer to a bigger population of likely users also limits their ability to compete. Having grandfathered-in coal boilers also doesn't help matters.

I would love to see a rethink of the Manitowoc-Ludington crossing with smaller, faster ferries still capable of handling semis and farm equipment, running more frequent daily crossings. But I have to wonder if the next news article about this isn't an announcement that the S.S. Badger won't be back at all in 2024, with no replacement vessels.  It would be a blow to both Manitowoc and Ludington, particularly Ludington.

I'm glad I made the crossing a few years ago. I wonder if I'll get another opportunity.

The vessel itself is just fine. It was the loading ramp at their dock in Ludington that had the problem. The loading ramp is supported by two large counterweight structures on either side of it, and one of those structures collapsed after the underwater pilings it was mounted on gave way. It's not entirely surprising considering those counterweight towers are likely over 100 years old, which is also why I believe the Badger's parent company intends to replace the pilings for both counterweights so that the other one doesn't fail.

And because it was the loading ramp that had the problem, having a sister ship wouldn't help in this scenario, as neither vessel would be able to load or unload anyway. (And the Badger does have a sister ship, the Spartan, but it hasn't sailed since 1979 and has been largely harvested for parts to keep the Badger operating.)

Correct, the Badger is quite fine..

As to the Spartan, Badger and Spartan shared the same ramp on both ends. Back in the day when the ran both.. they would pass in the middle of the lake.

The Ferry now has a much brighter future thanks to the Interlake purchase in 2020. Interlake has been trying to reinvest in the car ferry operation. They are a company well versed in running older large lake vessels.

If Spartan does come back, it will be as a diesel boat. Interlake is well experienced in steam to diesel conversions on lake boats.
In 2021 Spartan had an engineering survey done, and found the hull was in good shape. Badger was also drydocked in 2021 and had its largest overhaul in years.

Well, I suppose if anyone wants to clinch US 10, that will have to wait until next year...