Amazon Go: the cashier-less convenience store

[Takumi]

[Bruce]

To clear up some confusion and misleading statements in this thread:

You only need the app and an active card on the Amazon account. No Prime needed.

The sales are done solely through the camera sensors, no RFID needed.

There are roaming staff members who restock shelves and control the inflow of people (especially at the tourist-heavy locations), since the system can't handle a giant crowd rushing in at once.

Camera-based payment is already pretty common with electronic tolling and other industries, and there's plenty of CCTV activity already going on around you anyway...so what's the real harm? This kind of automation is akin to a better version of the vending machine...one that won't jam up and require a few kicks to get your goods.

[nexus73]

The products should be sold with a new style of vending machines.  That way anyone with a credit/debit card or dollar bills can make a purchase.  Heck, one can even accept EBT cards as well.  With vending machines doing the holding of products, there goes your shoplifting troubles down the drain!

Rick

They tried that in DC. It was a massive failure, partly because the items were priced way too high to compete with nearby convenience stores.

You mentioned "partly".  Please let me know the other factors which contributed to the failure.

Rick

[jeffandnicole]

People complaining about technology while they type their feelings via a device that can be 100% tracked.

Uh huh.

[Max Rockatansky]

People complaining about technology while they type their feelings via a device that can be 100% tracked.

Uh huh.

I'm more curious how the business operates.  My background is in physical security and I've had several retail store contracts over the years.  Specifically I'd like to find out how the camera sensors identify items and UPCs. 

[kalvado]

As for privacy... If you pay by credit card, store gets a bit of information about you and a full list of your purchases. More so if there is a reward program, which is common for grocery stores - they know the purchase history.
So what kind of privacy we're talking about? Facial expression of disgust/pure love when you look at certain items? Or how much time you spend reading the back of the package?
There may be some data to be extracted, but yield is likely low...

[vdeane]

I could see the data having use.  Maybe marketing firms will want this information (to use with information from other sources) to build profiles for targeted advertising.  Maybe you'll look at a product favorably but not buy and then start getting junk mail trying to get you to buy it.  Maybe your self-driving car will start plastering adverts on the windshield when you're near a store that sells the product.  Or maybe the government will request this data as a law enforcement dragnet, using algorithms to determine if you're likely to commit a crime soon.  Maybe if you buy the wrong product with the wrong demeanor, or you also make trips to the wrong places, etc., you'll get arrested and charged with being a terrorist, forced to prove your innocence (there was a time when buying a certain amount of fertilizer or a crock pot was virtually guaranteed to get you a visit from the FBI, not it's not totally out of the question).

I probably wouldn't ever use this for two reasons:
1. I don't want to have to install an app to use a store.  My phone has limited storage, and even if I did have space, I don't see why I should clutter up my phone and have to go through the inconvenience of getting it out and opening the app when I never needed any app to go to any store before.
2. I have concerns over whether inaccuracies could crop up in billing.  Accurately figuring out what you took seems to be quite a task to do by camera, and the fact that I wouldn't be able to resolve issues in real time is an issue.  Even if issues are rare, I guarantee that they'll happen eventually, and resolving them won't be convenient in the slightest.  How would you prove the computer wrong?

[Max Rockatansky]

As for privacy... If you pay by credit card, store gets a bit of information about you and a full list of your purchases. More so if there is a reward program, which is common for grocery stores - they know the purchase history.
So what kind of privacy we're talking about? Facial expression of disgust/pure love when you look at certain items? Or how much time you spend reading the back of the package?
There may be some data to be extracted, but yield is likely low...

Really it's not any different than any other merchant that takes credit/debit cards.  The information was handled very poorly and was easily accessed by employees as a whole industry wide before PCI laws. 

[abefroman329]

The products should be sold with a new style of vending machines.  That way anyone with a credit/debit card or dollar bills can make a purchase.  Heck, one can even accept EBT cards as well.  With vending machines doing the holding of products, there goes your shoplifting troubles down the drain!

Rick

They tried that in DC. It was a massive failure, partly because the items were priced way too high to compete with nearby convenience stores.

You mentioned "partly".  Please let me know the other factors which contributed to the failure.

Rick

Here, read about it for yourself: https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/2002/08/30/convenience-and-controversy-in-adams-morgan/145512c8-b806-49ae-82b7-46c14c9b4a4e/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.6bd5045b4e5a

[nexus73]

The products should be sold with a new style of vending machines.  That way anyone with a credit/debit card or dollar bills can make a purchase.  Heck, one can even accept EBT cards as well.  With vending machines doing the holding of products, there goes your shoplifting troubles down the drain!

Rick

They tried that in DC. It was a massive failure, partly because the items were priced way too high to compete with nearby convenience stores.

You mentioned "partly".  Please let me know the other factors which contributed to the failure.

Rick

Here, read about it for yourself: https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/2002/08/30/convenience-and-controversy-in-adams-morgan/145512c8-b806-49ae-82b7-46c14c9b4a4e/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.6bd5045b4e5a

Thanks for the link.  It appears new ways of doing business meet social resistance.  For me, self checkout at stores drives me crazy as the menus and operations are way too complex when all I wanted to do was buy, pay and go.  The Amazon system eliminates those problems.  Heck, so does a vending machine!  That is something we are used to as consumers. 

Did you know you can get a new vehicle from a vending machine?  There is an ad on TV showing how to order up the rig you want. It can be delivered to this giant structure that will house them and move them out once you drop in the special coin made for that purpose.

Look at how general goods stores with clerks getting merchandise from behind the counter was changed by the invention of the shopping cart and open to the public aisles 100 years ago.  What will retail sales look like 100 years from now?  If we have nanotech, we won't even need to have goods sold since anyone can make up anything they want from atoms.  Replicator technology is getting closer all the time!  We already have 3-D printers, which will soon be as obsolete as 8-track tapes.

Rick 

[ET21]

I'll be curious to see how it works, might check out the one in downtown

[MikeTheActuary]

I'm more curious how the business operates.  My background is in physical security and I've had several retail store contracts over the years.  Specifically I'd like to find out how the camera sensors identify items and UPCs. 

Amazon's being coy about letting on too much about that....but some of what I've noticed in the pictures of the stores include:

- There are a BUNCH of sensors in that place.  I don't think all of them are cameras.

- Notice how items are lined up and spaced.  If you program the system to know which items are where, and have an attendant ensure that items are placed back "just so", you probably don't need to scan the items.

- Notice that most of the products have distinct shapes, and certain items are placed on contrasting backgrounds.

- I can't tell just from what I've seen/read online whether the sensors in the store are tracking people, or if the app is using NFC as a means to identify which customer is at which product.  I assume the system is at risk of overload if there are too many people in the shopping area, so perhaps the turnstiles at the entryway are a mechanism to limit the number of people in the shopping area...?

I suspect that last point drives why the store's offerings are relatively limited.  Broader offering...more customers...harder to tell who's who (and harder to keep the product on the shelves "just so").

[Bruce]

The sensors are doing all the tracking. I don't enable my NFC sensor while inside (or anywhere really) and the orders are still accurate.

The turnstiles require you to scan a QR code from the app and lets the system know that you are in the store itself. You can also scan a guest or two with the same code and it will identify you and your guest as belonging to that one account. The store can't handle many people, so limiting access is also a function of the turnstiles.

The stores are very much a grab-and-go kind of place, meant for snacks, essentials, and things you'd probably need to buy spontaneously rather than with your regular groceries.

[Scott5114]

- Notice how items are lined up and spaced.  If you program the system to know which items are where, and have an attendant ensure that items are placed back "just so", you probably don't need to scan the items.

- Notice that most of the products have distinct shapes, and certain items are placed on contrasting backgrounds.

It seems like relying on such things is just begging for the system to be ruined by the carelessness of the General Public. (I don't want this banana, obviously the place to leave it is with the shampoo.)

[MikeTheActuary]

- Notice how items are lined up and spaced.  If you program the system to know which items are where, and have an attendant ensure that items are placed back "just so", you probably don't need to scan the items.

- Notice that most of the products have distinct shapes, and certain items are placed on contrasting backgrounds.

It seems like relying on such things is just begging for the system to be ruined by the carelessness of the General Public. (I don't want this banana, obviously the place to leave it is with the shampoo.)

Hence the need for an attendant to make sure that things are returned "just so".

I imagine the increased risk of being mis-charged / mis-credited would also promote proper behavior by the public.

(Note also that my comments are just pure speculation, wondering how the system works and only having pictures and a few reports to go on.)

[Fixed quoting. -S.]

[Scott5114]

Sure, but an attendant can't be everywhere at once. You also can't promote proper behavior amongst the General Public; from my observations they make no connection at all between their behavior and any consequences that might be visited upon them. Any mischarges would simply lead to complaints, not any introspection regarding whether perhaps they were themselves somehow responsible.

[jakeroot]

Regular grocery stores have staff on that do the same thing. It's also not unusual for customers at any store to grab item A, hung on the same rack as item B by some moron, but then complain when charged item A price (as they thought they grabbed something priced the same as item B). Amazon Go stores are small enough that "lazy misplacement" is less likely than at traditional grocery stores.

[cjk374]

I ain't a fan of this new technology. Between now and 20 years from now, what Amazon has in place will be obsolete, as well as the technology that replaced it. I'm sure it will improve, but I will avoid stores like these at all cost for as long as I can.

[jakeroot]

I ain't a fan of this new technology. Between now and 20 years from now, what Amazon has in place will be obsolete, as well as the technology that replaced it. I'm sure it will improve, but I will avoid stores like these at all cost for as long as I can.

Except for barcodes, the traditional grocery store has barely changed in the last 70 years. What makes you think this leap-frog move by Amazon will be obsolete in 20 years?

[cjk374]

I ain't a fan of this new technology. Between now and 20 years from now, what Amazon has in place will be obsolete, as well as the technology that replaced it. I'm sure it will improve, but I will avoid stores like these at all cost for as long as I can.

Except for barcodes, the traditional grocery store has barely changed in the last 70 years. What makes you think this leap-frog move by Amazon will be obsolete in 20 years?

Technology becomes obsolete quickly nowadays. The cameras & sensors in place now will be replaced by some currently-unforseen technology. I really wasn't referring to the concept of the store itself.

[Brandon]

I ain't a fan of this new technology. Between now and 20 years from now, what Amazon has in place will be obsolete, as well as the technology that replaced it. I'm sure it will improve, but I will avoid stores like these at all cost for as long as I can.

Except for barcodes, the traditional grocery store has barely changed in the last 70 years. What makes you think this leap-frog move by Amazon will be obsolete in 20 years?

That's a bit naive.  The grocery store has changed a lot in the past 70 years.  They started out as purely dry goods operations.  Over the years, they've added bakery, deli, fresh produce, dairy, frozen foods, and in some cases, massive general merchandise sections as hypermarkets.  The checkout technology has changed from typing in prices and having minimal control over inventory to bar codes linked to inventory instantaneously.  We've even added self checkout technology.  You're also missing the advances in selling products to people.  A store at one time just had people walk past everything on the way to the checkout to the subtle and somewhat sly displays of today.

Amazon Go with no checkout and minimal clerks is a gimmick, & I doubt that it will last as a concept.  It's too easy to shoplift, it requires far too many cameras, & it needs to limit the number of people in the store with a very limited selection that the cameras can recognize.  It will never be viable for a Meijer type store.

[jakeroot]

I ain't a fan of this new technology. Between now and 20 years from now, what Amazon has in place will be obsolete, as well as the technology that replaced it. I'm sure it will improve, but I will avoid stores like these at all cost for as long as I can.

Except for barcodes, the traditional grocery store has barely changed in the last 70 years. What makes you think this leap-frog move by Amazon will be obsolete in 20 years?

That's a bit naive.  The grocery store has changed a lot in the past 70 years.  They started out as purely dry goods operations.  Over the years, they've added bakery, deli, fresh produce, dairy, frozen foods, and in some cases, massive general merchandise sections as hypermarkets.  The checkout technology has changed from typing in prices and having minimal control over inventory to bar codes linked to inventory instantaneously.  We've even added self checkout technology.  You're also missing the advances in selling products to people.  A store at one time just had people walk past everything on the way to the checkout to the subtle and somewhat sly displays of today.

Amazon Go with no checkout and minimal clerks is a gimmick, & I doubt that it will last as a concept.  It's too easy to shoplift, it requires far too many cameras, & it needs to limit the number of people in the store with a very limited selection that the cameras can recognize.  It will never be viable for a Meijer type store.

I would say it's rather naive to assume that Amazon Go is a gimmick. It introduces people to a way of shopping unlike any experience before it (at least on a wide scale). Stores like Amazon Go are more comparable to drug stores and small chains like Lidl. Small stores with limited, albeit affordable, selections. While we have introduced things like self checkout, the checkout process still remains completely fucked; it still takes way too long. Even "express checkouts" are a scam. Everyone uses that damn line.

Here's my guess: traditional grocery stores will be the last to receive the Amazon Go treatment. Smaller stores, like drug stores or gas stations, will be the first, since they have a small selection, and the items can be managed more easily. Eventually, as the technology improves, it will be able to work at just about any sort of business. The return process will need some work, but "needs some work" applies to just about everything in any industry.

For what it's worth, while grocery stores have evolved into a sort of experience geared towards the consumer, with aisles and shelving designed to sell, these can still be maintained once the stores are converted to "automatic check out". When I say that grocery stores haven't changed in a long time, I'm referring to the checkout process. I am aware that, at one point, checkers had to type in an item's number in order to add it to the bill, but that was eventually replaced by the barcode. That was a massive leap, because it improved the checkout experience by speeding it up dramatically. The Amazon Go experience builds on that by completely eliminating the checkout stand. If you're going to only grab one or two things, you can be out, at least in theory, in less than 60 seconds. That's nearly impossible at any store right now.

Another thing: Amazon Go stores serve a part of the population that may not drive, or frequently grocery shops, so much so that they generally don't need a cart when they go, because they're only buying a few things. these people are only in the store for maybe 2 or 3 minutes, and then they're ready to go. That does not describe your average Kroger experience, which is why those types of stores will be the last to see this sort of set-up.

[Bruce]

According to Bloomberg, Amazon might be preparing for a huge scale-up: 3,000 stores by 2021.

The article also some interesting tidbits, like the $1 million cost for the first store in Seattle but later stores could have a more limited stock to reduce the number of cameras needed to cover the store.

As for the above replies:

There's a reason why Amazon stresses that Go is a convenience store and not a grocer. It's definitely going to fill the niche between full-on mini-marts and vending machines, and will be perfectly sized for kiosks and stands inside train stations, within office buildings, and at public plazas and the like. It's a very much urban store and would not work well in a drive-up suburb.

[formulanone]

So...any word on pricing?

These stores are going to be in the top-dollar-per-square-foot districts, so all it really seems to do is drive out the bodegas.

[In_Correct]

There's now three stores in Seattle where you can walk in, flash your phone at some turnstiles, grab some pre-packaged food, then walk out without having to use a self-checkout or encounter a normal cashier.

The entire store is wired with ceiling cameras that track people as they move around, pick things up, and then leave, tallying up their cart and charging through the app (which takes ~10 minutes to go through). It's smart enough to know if you've picked up something and sent it back or if you're trying to be sneaky and quick.

The tech holds a lot of potential when it comes to places where people like to rush: airport terminals, subway stations, stadium concessions, etc.


Amazon Go at Madison Centre by SounderBruce, on Flickr


Amazon Go at Madison Centre by SounderBruce, on Flickr


Amazon Go at Madison Centre by SounderBruce, on Flickr


Amazon Go at Madison Centre by SounderBruce, on Flickr

These "unmanned stores" are a lot more common than just Amazon.

I see no reason to shop them. Even an unmanned store still has staff some where and places such as Walmart has Self Check Out with a cashier monitoring a cluster of Self Check Out registers. They even have upgraded their convener belt aisles to self check outs. The cashiers walk by these aisles also. And it seems that they don't even need to touch the screen any more. No doubt the cashiers can access the registers by remote control.

And I do not have any cell phone service and I never will. These Self Check Outs have a variety of payment methods. The vending machines, whether it is traditional refrigerator sized machines, or ice / water vending machines, they also offer multiple payment options. So does online. I strictly shop online and at hypermarkets. I do not bother with silly little stores. When getting fuel, I pay at the pump. I like self service, but Unmanned Stores are not that interesting, especially since places such as Walmart have an effective system in place.

As for Amazon, I am boycotting it. I do not like the experience of the other things Amazon has which means I am not optimistic about Amazon Go and I will be avoiding it on purpose.