We all know about bough, cough, dough, tough, and through.
But there are other pairs that rhyme on paper but not when pronounced:
patio / ratio
Roger / Kroger
Sean / Bean
rugged / shrugged
ratchet / yacht
snow plow
Quote from: 1 on March 22, 2023, 08:17:38 PM
snow plow
Interesting feature of this is that the "w" in "snow" is part of the "ow" diphthong and is sometimes considered a vowel because of this, where the "w" in "plow" is simply a consonant.
I always used the phrase "power mower" as an example.
good food
Quote from: kurumi on March 22, 2023, 08:17:13 PM
We all know about bough, cough, dough, tough, and through.
I think "ough" cannot be trusted with its multiple pronunciation offenses, and should be oughsted from the English language.
Here and there
Quote from: formulanone on March 22, 2023, 09:09:29 PM
Quote from: kurumi on March 22, 2023, 08:17:13 PM
We all know about bough, cough, dough, tough, and through.
I think "ough" cannot be trusted with its multiple pronunciation offenses, and should be oughsted from the English language.
Oughch, you hurt its feelings.
Omen/women
Adobe/probe
Move/love
Blood/brood
These are just a few that I thought of off the top of my head
Know how
Bone / done / gone
Couch / touch
Daughter / laughter
Bother / brother
One that doesn't apply to everyone:
Spider / rider (I use "canadian raising" on the "i" in spider even though it's before a voiced consonant).
Crouch and touch
Quote from: dlsterner on March 22, 2023, 08:24:52 PM
Quote from: 1 on March 22, 2023, 08:17:38 PM
snow plow
Interesting feature of this is that the "w" in "snow" is part of the "ow" diphthong and is sometimes considered a vowel because of this, where the "w" in "plow" is simply a consonant.
The "ow" of plow is a diphthong in that it starts with the "ah" sound and ends with the "ooh" sound. It's not a diaeresis, where two distinct vowels sounds occur in succession, since they blend into one another.
If you're going for the idea of two letters making one sound, the word for that is digraph. Now, diphthongs are often digraphs, but not always, for example with "I."
Also, sake and sake.
Regina and Fun - at least Deadpool got it.
Quote from: dlsterner on March 22, 2023, 08:24:52 PM
Quote from: 1 on March 22, 2023, 08:17:38 PM
snow plow
Interesting feature of this is that the "w" in "snow" is part of the "ow" diphthong and is sometimes considered a vowel because of this, where the "w" in "plow" is simply a consonant.
I always used the phrase "power mower" as an example.
I don't follow. How does that make the W in the word PLOW a consonant?
The words "power" and "devour" rhyme.
POWER = /ˈp
aʊ.ɚ/
DEVOUR = /dɪˈv
aʊ.ɚ/
The words "mower" and "churchgoer" rhyme.
MOWER = /ˈm
oʊ.ɚ/
CHURCHGOER = /ˈtʃɝːtʃˌɡ
oʊ.ɚ/
This thread reminds me of a tweet I saw where the poster thought about pronouncing "particles" as if it were a Greek name.
Quote from: kphoger on March 23, 2023, 02:41:48 PM
Quote from: dlsterner on March 22, 2023, 08:24:52 PM
Quote from: 1 on March 22, 2023, 08:17:38 PM
snow plow
Interesting feature of this is that the "w" in "snow" is part of the "ow" diphthong and is sometimes considered a vowel because of this, where the "w" in "plow" is simply a consonant.
I always used the phrase "power mower" as an example.
I don't follow. How does that make the W in the word PLOW a consonant?
The words "power" and "devour" rhyme.
POWER = /ˈpaʊ.ɚ/
DEVOUR = /dɪˈvaʊ.ɚ/
The words "mower" and "churchgoer" rhyme.
MOWER = /ˈmoʊ.ɚ/
CHURCHGOER = /ˈtʃɝːtʃˌɡoʊ.ɚ/
I was thinking the same thing. 'w', as the last letter in the word, is never really a consonant in English. It really only functions as a consonant at the beginning of a word or after another consonant, i.e. something like 'bellwether".
Laughter / Slaughter. Thanks to The Dark Knight for bringing that one to my attention.
Quote from: 7/8 on March 22, 2023, 10:53:05 PM
One that doesn't apply to everyone:
Spider / rider (I use "canadian raising" on the "i" in spider even though it's before a voiced consonant).
What about writer and rider?
Ford word
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on March 23, 2023, 11:03:23 PM
Quote from: 7/8 on March 22, 2023, 10:53:05 PM
One that doesn't apply to everyone:
Spider / rider (I use "canadian raising" on the "i" in spider even though it's before a voiced consonant).
What about writer and rider?
For me, writer and rider don't rhyme since the first has canadian raising and the latter doesn't. But writer and spider do rhyme.
Also, for some reason I use canadian raising in houses and spouses even though the first "s" is pronounced like a "z" (a voiced consonant). I guess that's because the singular of those two words has an "s" sound and therefore the singular words use canadian raising. It leads to an interesting case of the "ow" sound in houses and lousy being different for me.
Quote from: 7/8 on March 23, 2023, 11:22:46 PM
It leads to an interesting case of the "ow" sound in houses and lousy being different for me.
They're the same to me, but rider and spider are different.
Dove/trove
Quote from: 7/8 on March 23, 2023, 11:22:46 PM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on March 23, 2023, 11:03:23 PM
Quote from: 7/8 on March 22, 2023, 10:53:05 PM
One that doesn't apply to everyone:
Spider / rider (I use "canadian raising" on the "i" in spider even though it's before a voiced consonant).
What about writer and rider?
For me, writer and rider don't rhyme since the first has canadian raising and the latter doesn't. But writer and spider do rhyme.
Also, for some reason I use canadian raising in houses and spouses even though the first "s" is pronounced like a "z" (a voiced consonant). I guess that's because the singular of those two words has an "s" sound and therefore the singular words use canadian raising. It leads to an interesting case of the "ow" sound in houses and lousy being different for me.
Interesting. I seem to do the raising with "eye" sounds but not "ow" sounds.
Quote from: 7/8 on March 22, 2023, 10:53:05 PM
Spider / rider
Quote from: 7/8 on March 23, 2023, 11:22:46 PM
writer and rider
This thread is the first time in my life I've ever heard that those words
don't rhyme for some people. Learn something new every day.
Quote from: kphoger on March 24, 2023, 11:48:01 AM
Quote from: 7/8 on March 22, 2023, 10:53:05 PM
Spider / rider
Quote from: 7/8 on March 23, 2023, 11:22:46 PM
writer and rider
This thread is the first time in my life I've ever heard that those words don't rhyme for some people. Learn something new every day.
The /i/ sounds a bit different for me, in a way I haven't noticed before. A little longer and diphthong-y in "rider" compared to "spider" or "writer". Here's what wiktionary thinks:
(General American) enPR: spīʹdər, IPA(key): /ˈspaɪ̯dɚ/
(New England, Inland Northern American, Canada) enPR: spīʹdər, IPA(key): [ˈspʌɪ̯ɾə(ɹ)]
(General American) enPR: rī'dər, IPA(key): /ˈɹaɪ.dəɹ/, [ˈɹ̠aɪɾɚ]
(Canada, Inland Northern American) enPR: rī'dər, IPA(key): /ˈɹaɪ.dəɹ/, [ˈɹ̠äɪɾɚ]
(General American) IPA(key): /ˈɹaɪ.təɹ/, [ˈɹ̠ăɪɾɚ]
(Canada, Inland Northern American) IPA(key): /ˈɹaɪ.təɹ/, [ˈɹ̠ʌɪɾɚ]
Quote from: kphoger on March 24, 2023, 11:48:01 AM
Quote from: 7/8 on March 22, 2023, 10:53:05 PM
Spider / rider
Quote from: 7/8 on March 23, 2023, 11:22:46 PM
writer and rider
This thread is the first time in my life I've ever heard that those words don't rhyme for some people. Learn something new every day.
It's funny how that is. You've probably heard many people on TV/movies pronouncing "writer" with canadian raising, but you don't notice it. I had a similar scenario back in Grade 7. I was on a trip to Quebec City waiting in line at a restaurant and some American kids asked me to say "out". I did and they thought it was funny and I couldn't understand why. In my mind, I said it just like they did, and just like on the American shows I watch. But it turns out I don't say it the same as Americans, but I truly didn't know until reading about it years later. Likewise, I never noticed that many people distinguish the vowels cot and caught until I read about that online (since I have the merger like most Canadians). I think our brains try and convert sounds we lack in our own dialect to a similar one we do have. That's my theory on why Americans think we say out as "oot", even though it sounds nothing like that to me (at least "oat" would be a closer approximation).
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on March 24, 2023, 11:40:40 AM
Quote from: 7/8 on March 23, 2023, 11:22:46 PM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on March 23, 2023, 11:03:23 PM
Quote from: 7/8 on March 22, 2023, 10:53:05 PM
One that doesn't apply to everyone:
Spider / rider (I use "canadian raising" on the "i" in spider even though it's before a voiced consonant).
What about writer and rider?
For me, writer and rider don't rhyme since the first has canadian raising and the latter doesn't. But writer and spider do rhyme.
Also, for some reason I use canadian raising in houses and spouses even though the first "s" is pronounced like a "z" (a voiced consonant). I guess that's because the singular of those two words has an "s" sound and therefore the singular words use canadian raising. It leads to an interesting case of the "ow" sound in houses and lousy being different for me.
Interesting. I seem to do the raising with "eye" sounds but not "ow" sounds.
Yes, despite the name "Canadian raising", the raising of the "eye" vowel is found in many American accents (mostly north and west). But the "ow" vowel raising is almost exclusively Canadian.
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on March 23, 2023, 11:03:23 PM
Quote from: 7/8 on March 22, 2023, 10:53:05 PM
One that doesn't apply to everyone:
Spider / rider (I use "canadian raising" on the "i" in spider even though it's before a voiced consonant).
What about writer and rider?
For me, not the same. The vowels are the same, but my tongue placement on the middle consonant is different. The tip of my tongue is much closer to my front teeth when I say "rider" than it is when I say "writer."
They're all just alveolar taps for me. Ladder, latter, rider, writer, faded, fated, medal, metal, Sweden, sweeten (just kidding).
For the ones that end in r, the tip of my tongue is slightly farther back, but that's just in preparation for the r sound.
One of my biggest pet peeves in music is song lyrics that rhyme "again" with anything else ending in -ain. "Again" does NOT rhyme with "rain", "pain", "train", etc. It happens so often and it grates on me every time!
Quote from: paulthemapguy on March 28, 2023, 09:31:45 PM
"Again" does NOT rhyme with "rain", "pain", "train", etc.
Is it too late to tell FDR?
Also, from the very first two lines of Macbeth:
Quote from: William Shakespeare: Macbeth
Act I
Scene I
First Witch –
When shall we three meet again
In thunder, lightning, or in rain?
Quote from: kphoger on March 29, 2023, 09:11:47 AM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on March 28, 2023, 09:31:45 PM
"Again" does NOT rhyme with "rain", "pain", "train", etc.
Is it too late to tell FDR?
Also, from the very first two lines of Macbeth:
Quote from: William Shakespeare: Macbeth
Act I
Scene I
First Witch –
When shall we three meet again
In thunder, lightning, or in rain?
The Bard got to play around with the plasticity of spoken language in ways we can't without sounding like a buffoon or just overacting.
Quote from: formulanone on March 29, 2023, 09:57:39 AM
The Bard got to play around with the plasticity of spoken language in ways we can't without sounding like a buffoon or just overacting.
No, that isn't it. It's that
again has had more than one pronunciation in use for hundreds of years, and it still does.
Quote from: Cambridge Dictionary
again
adverb
US /əˈɡen/
UK /əˈɡen/ /əˈɡeɪn/
Quote from: kphoger on March 29, 2023, 09:11:47 AM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on March 28, 2023, 09:31:45 PM
"Again" does NOT rhyme with "rain", "pain", "train", etc.
Is it too late to tell FDR?
Also, from the very first two lines of Macbeth:
Quote from: William Shakespeare: Macbeth
Act I
Scene I
First Witch –
When shall we three meet again
In thunder, lightning, or in rain?
Okay, so it seems your entire purpose is to be contrarian to everything I post. I hear the word "again" spoken in songs, and I hear them say the other word, and when the words are pronounced, you can clearly hear that they don't rhyme. I have ears. This is the fourth example in recent memory of you replying to my post just to pedantically correct me and undermine what I say (unsuccessfully, I might add).
What is your problem?
Quote from: paulthemapguy on March 29, 2023, 11:44:38 AM
I hear the word "again" spoken in songs, and I hear them say the other word, and when the words are pronounced, you can clearly hear that they don't rhyme. I have ears.
The simple explanation is that they do not rhyme as pronounced in the US, but they
do rhyme as pronounced in other parts of the world, including Canada. It's one of the more noticeable differences in how a word is spoken between the US and Canada.
Whether you should change the pronunciation in a song to make it rhyme, is another question. I tend to agree that, if it's not the singer/songwriter's normal pronunciation, they shouldn't say it that way, as it seems inauthentic.
Quote from: paulthemapguy on March 29, 2023, 11:44:38 AM
I hear the word "again" spoken in songs, and I hear them say the other word, and when the words are pronounced, you can clearly hear that they don't rhyme. I have ears.
Quote from: webny99 on March 29, 2023, 11:52:37 AM
The simple explanation is that they do not rhyme as pronounced in the US, but they do rhyme as pronounced in other parts of the world, including Canada. It's one of the more noticeable differences in how a word is spoken between the US and Canada.
Whether you should change the pronunciation in a song to make it rhyme, is another question. I tend to agree that, if it's not the singer/songwriter's normal pronunciation, they shouldn't say it that way, as it seems inauthentic.
I was assuming, |paulthemapguy|, that the singer was actually singing
again as
a-gain. You're saying, rather, that the singer was actually singing
a-genn and then pretending it rhymes with
rain. Yes, that grates on me as well. It's one thing if the song is old enough that the words used to rhyme but no longer do (such as in some church hymns), but that can't be the excuse for a modern pop song.
In my opinion, |webny99|, it's more complicated than that. For example, the Beatles, who rarely tried to hide their Liverpool accent, did occasionally strive for an American accent: I don't think
Rocky Raccoon would be the same without their effort to sound American. Then, too, Paul McCartney and John Lennon were greatly influenced by American music, so their 'authentic' singing voice is actually slightly American, and trying to rid themselves of it could be considered inauthentic.
Quote from: paulthemapguy on March 29, 2023, 11:44:38 AM
Okay, so it seems your entire purpose is to be contrarian to everything I post. ... This is the fourth example in recent memory of you replying to my post just to pedantically correct me and undermine what I say (unsuccessfully, I might add).
What is your problem?
I assure you, I have nothing personal against you at all. I'm often pedantic, and language is one of my biggest interests. It doesn't matter who had typed what you typed: I'd have posted the same reply. You seem to imagine that I'm sitting here thinking,
Oh, there's that guy I hate, so what can I do to tear him down? The truth is that, just today, I thought to myself,
Oh, cool, I haven't seen him posting very much on the forum lately, I wonder if he's been busy or if we've just been hanging out in different threads. Here, I thought I was just engaging in friendly conversation, but you interpreted it as an attempt at undermining you. Believe me, I had no such intention.
Quote from: paulthemapguy on March 28, 2023, 09:31:45 PM
One of my biggest pet peeves in music is song lyrics that rhyme "again" with anything else ending in -ain. "Again" does NOT rhyme with "rain", "pain", "train", etc. It happens so often and it grates on me every time!
Agreed, but equally grating is stringing together nonsensical song lyrics to make the last words in each line rhyme. (America, I'm looking at you.) (The band, not the country.) I can't decide which is worse.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on March 29, 2023, 02:49:37 PM
equally grating is stringing together nonsensical song lyrics to make the last words in each line rhyme.
INXS:
Mediate