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[Plutonic Panda]

It will be so nice if the courts rule in favor of the OTA and we can get all of these projects going finally.

I'd rather that the court rules in such a way that justice is properly served based on the facts at hand—whether that's against or in favor of the OTA.  How much I want a project to break ground doesn't influence how I want a court to rule.

Well that’s certainly high and mighty but I’ll join the camp who doesn’t care about that one way or another as my faith in the courts to actually make fair and just decisions is next to zero.

Public authorities are vested with a tremendous amount of power, so I think it is important for the courts to enforce procedural regularity and transparency, and they generally have a good track record of doing so simply because it is usually a matter of applying black-letter law.  In my experience, doing things right in this way rarely results in projects being delayed or cancelled.  On the other hand, running roughshod over stakeholders' expectations of how the process should work only encourages them to dig in their heels.

What is not clear from the press reporting is why OTA didn't follow the rulebook for this specific design contract.  If it was a simple administrative oversight, why not just admit it?  If they were trying to pull a fast one on the opponents, don't they realize that that trick works only once?

To be clear, I want the courts to make the right and just decision as well. I personally believe that decision is to build these roads. What they got the OTA on was a minor technicality “gotcha” type thing where some minutes weren’t posted and then they tried to cover it up.

With that said especially given the recent decisions from the highest court in the land I have little to no faith in our courts to do what is actually right. So my personal opinion is the right thing to do is to build these roads and that decision is the right one the courts should choose. Of course that’s only my opinion and nothing more.

I hope that clears up what I’m getting at…

[kphoger]

It sounds like one court made decisions you don't agree with, so for some reason you think all courts are inept.

[Scott5114]

It will be so nice if the courts rule in favor of the OTA and we can get all of these projects going finally.

I'd rather that the court rules in such a way that justice is properly served based on the facts at hand—whether that's against or in favor of the OTA.  How much I want a project to break ground doesn't influence how I want a court to rule.

I agree. It's unfortunate that Norman has incorporated the rural land east of its urban core to encompass Lake Thunderbird. Ownership, or in this case incorporated limits, work in Norman's favor regarding any Kickapoo Turnpike extension south. Norman also has the bulk of the proposed East-West Connector corridor within its northern limit.  However, both corridors are lightly populated so the OTA eminent domain efforts to improve the Oklahoma transportation infrastructure may outweigh Norman's stated interests as relatively few residents will be personally impacted by OTAs proposals even from a quality of life impact. The Kickapoo could still be extended south east of Lake Thunderbird should the court rule against OTA but there's no good alternative to the East-West Connector corridor.

As a Norman resident, I should point out that the reason why Norman has annexed Lake Thunderbird, and why they are so defensive of it in general, is because it is the city's sole drinking water source. A good chunk of Norman's annexation of east Cleveland County is to block Oklahoma City from getting there first (probably because we don't want them making a claim for the water in Lake Thunderbird).

A good number of the arguments against the Kickapoo extension focus on water quality issues as a reason to oppose the turnpike. This works because Norman was for many years over the EPA allowed limits for certain types of contaminants in water, and it took a few years' worth of effort to bring the water into compliance. So bringing up water quality is a good way to hit the "Worry about this!" button in longtime residents' brains.

It sounds like one court made decisions you don't agree with, so for some reason you think all courts are inept.

The Oklahoma court system is inept.

[Plutonic Panda]

It’s also funny how an entire town was removed for the construction of Lake Thunderbird. I bet all of the PikeOff folks don’t have any issue with that lol

[Plutonic Panda]

Email I received:

ACCESS Oklahoma Update
ACCESS Oklahoma Stakeholder,

December 1, 2022, the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority received a decision in the Open Meeting Act lawsuit filed in Cleveland County District Court by a group of Norman residents opposed to the ACCESS Oklahoma program. The decision invalidates certain board action items from the Authority’s regular meetings in January and February 2022.

The Authority’s general counsel and outside litigation counsel are evaluating the Court’s decision and the Authority’s options. This includes items of business that must be brought to the board for consideration in order to correct what the Court found to be deficient. In the interim, and as a result of the Court’s decision, it is necessary that contract work on the ACCESS Oklahoma program authorized during the January and February board meetings be paused. This includes the following projects: I-44/Turner Turnpike widening, I-44/Will Roger Turnpike widening, John Kilpatrick Turnpike widening, new access points throughout Oklahoma’s toll-supported network and new alignments (East-West Connector, Tri-City Connector, South Extension, and Gilcrease Northwest segment). This is effective at noon Central time Thursday, December 8, 2022, and will remain paused until the board is able to consider and take corrective action as described above or as otherwise directed by the Authority. As such, all progress and update meetings currently scheduled with stakeholders are canceled/postponed.

While these developments were not anticipated, the Authority will move in a deliberate and thoughtful manner, in compliance with the Court’s decision, to progress ACCESS Oklahoma.

[Scott5114]

It’s also funny how an entire town was removed for the construction of Lake Thunderbird. I bet all of the PikeOff folks don’t have any issue with that lol

There's a reason you never hear about new reservoirs being constructed anymore.

[Plutonic Panda]

It’s also funny how an entire town was removed for the construction of Lake Thunderbird. I bet all of the PikeOff folks don’t have any issue with that lol

There's a reason you never hear about new reservoirs being constructed anymore.

Sure but all of these folks up in arms over their homes being taken for infrastructure don’t seem to have as much of an issue using other infrastructure that took other peoples homes.

[Scott5114]

It’s also funny how an entire town was removed for the construction of Lake Thunderbird. I bet all of the PikeOff folks don’t have any issue with that lol

There's a reason you never hear about new reservoirs being constructed anymore.

Sure but all of these folks up in arms over their homes being taken for infrastructure don’t seem to have as much of an issue using other infrastructure that took other peoples homes.

Well, of course. It's not their homes that got taken for that infrastructure. What do they care?

Oklahoma is a bastion of this kind of "fuck you, I got mine" way of thinking.

[Bobby5280]

Sure but all of these folks up in arms over their homes being taken for infrastructure don’t seem to have as much of an issue using other infrastructure that took other peoples homes.

Most of these people bitching honestly don't have anything to worry about. Very few would have to worry about their homes being bought at market value and removed to make way for a turnpike. The East-West Connector would have the biggest impact yet it won't remove many properties at all along its proposed alignment. Still, these people are bitching because, well, people love having something to gripe about. And a community-wide group-think crusade is even more entertaining.

This new argument over water quality at Lake Thunderbird is an odd one. There are numerous man-made lakes used primarily for drinking water that have major highways running next to them, or even bridges going over them. Lake Hefner in OKC has Hefner Parkway next to it. And that freeway probably has a higher VPD count than the Kickapoo Turnpike would generate. Lake Ray Hubbard is one of the biggest reservoirs serving the DFW metroplex. It has 7 different bridges crossing it, 2 of which carry I-30.

[US 89]

If I recall correctly, there are several water sources in Louisiana that are directly crossed by interstates on long viaducts, and nobody seems to care all that much...

This is like the rose rocks. People are grasping at whatever straws they can.

[skluth]

If I recall correctly, there are several water sources in Louisiana that are directly crossed by interstates on long viaducts, and nobody seems to care all that much...

This is like the rose rocks. People are grasping at whatever straws they can.

Those rose rocks are a legit rarity that should be protected and the highway plans should be (and can be) modified to accommodate them. I don't think it will affect the overall plan much. OTOH, the few people and businesses being displaced by these highways through mostly undeveloped rural exurban and rural land claiming these highways should be stopped because of the danger to Lake Thunderbird are, as you state, grasping at straws to stop the eminent domain process.

[triplemultiplex]

The rose rocks are not really in danger.  The extent of the Garber Formation they are found in spans a fairly large area east of OKC/Norman between the Canadian and Cimarron Rivers.   And it's not like they're going to trench a hundred feet down to build a turnpike.  The vast majority of the roses will exist deep enough to be unaffected by surface activity.  The best places to find them are actually the shores of Thunderbird Lake where wave action exposes them.

The Garber Formation is 150 to 400 feet thick in the area of OKC where the turnpikes are proposed.  Now not every level of that is going to have rose concretions, but suffice to say there are plenty safely hidden below dozens to hundreds of feet of rock.

People should just be honest about their opposition to the new turnpikes.  They don't want more people building shit near them because they like the psuedo-rural character of the exurbs.  They can pretend they live in the country, but they're still only like 20 minutes from Costco.  Turnpikes bring sprawl and sprawl is bad if it gets built after I moved here.  Pretending it's about rocks or some lake that will not perceptibly change is intellectually dishonest.  They just want to make it harder for someone to turn the neighbor's ranch into a subdivision.

[skluth]

I'm just saying there are ways that both the rose rocks are protected and the highways can be built. It's mitigation, not an excuse to stop the highways. I do agree those using the rose rocks are claiming an overbroad area rather than just the specific areas where they are found at or near the surface.

[Scott5114]

They can pretend they live in the country, but they're still only like 20 minutes from Costco. 

Amusingly, it's more like an hour since the only Costco in Cleveland County is in Moore, but it would be much faster to get to it if the east-west turnpike is constructed.

[sprjus4]

^ And I’d be willing to bet at least some of those opposing this project would more than happily hop on it and set their cruise at 80 mph if it were to be built.

[Bobby5280]

People should just be honest about their opposition to the new turnpikes.  They don't want more people building shit near them because they like the psuedo-rural character of the exurbs.  They can pretend they live in the country, but they're still only like 20 minutes from Costco.  Turnpikes bring sprawl and sprawl is bad if it gets built after I moved here.

Here's the thing, sprawl is spreading in OKC suburbs like Moore, Norman, Yukon and Mustang regardless of these proposed new turnpikes. The area where the East-West Connector is currently proposed absolutely will fill-in totally with new development in the years ahead. The OKC and Tulsa metro areas are pretty much the only places in Oklahoma gaining population. The rural areas as well as smaller cities and towns are all losing population. A good bit of that is going to OKC and Tulsa (as well as down to Texas).

Anyone buying a property on the edge of a popular suburb like Moore, expecting to preserve some kind of rural country life, is a fucking idiot.

Really it's hypocrisy for anyone to act like they're living in the country yet buy a home close enough to town they're able to get city water supply, city sewage lines, city trash removal, modern/fast Internet service, police, fire dept, etc. That's some all hat, no cattle nonsense. To truly live out in the sticks means having to rely on well water, septic tanks, 1990's quality Internet and on and on.

As I said, the suburbs of Moore, Norman, Newcastle, Mustang and Yukon will fill in any remaining gaps between them and OKC. Then development will just get more and more dense over time. That whole area can be like driving in Albuquerque where it's a whole lot of stoplight hell. Or they can allow these turnpikes to be built and make driving around the growing OKC area a lot easier.

Also, turnpikes don't necessarily invite sprawl. Some of it depends on how the turnpike is designed and the number of exits it has. The East-West Connector will have frontage roads most of its length because it will need it for the sprawl that's coming that direction regardless. The Southern extension of the Kickapoo Turnpike won't have frontage roads. At best, the Kickapoo extension will only spark development close to the 6 proposed exits to surface streets and highways with no controlled access.

[US 89]

If I recall correctly, there are several water sources in Louisiana that are directly crossed by interstates on long viaducts, and nobody seems to care all that much...

This is like the rose rocks. People are grasping at whatever straws they can.

Those rose rocks are a legit rarity that should be protected and the highway plans should be (and can be) modified to accommodate them. I don't think it will affect the overall plan much. OTOH, the few people and businesses being displaced by these highways through mostly undeveloped rural exurban and rural land claiming these highways should be stopped because of the danger to Lake Thunderbird are, as you state, grasping at straws to stop the eminent domain process.

I’m not saying the rose rocks shouldn’t be protected, but 90% of the people talking about them in the context of the turnpikes probably have no idea what they even are. All they care about is they can treat them like an endangered species to tie up the project in court until OTA abandons it. These NIMBYs know “because I don’t like it” isn’t exactly a persuasive argument against planning and building stuff, so they have to find something to get “experts” on board with to look more convincing. Who cares how much of that cause is legitimate or if it’s really an important issue to them. The end justifies the means.

[skluth]

If I recall correctly, there are several water sources in Louisiana that are directly crossed by interstates on long viaducts, and nobody seems to care all that much...

This is like the rose rocks. People are grasping at whatever straws they can.

Those rose rocks are a legit rarity that should be protected and the highway plans should be (and can be) modified to accommodate them. I don't think it will affect the overall plan much. OTOH, the few people and businesses being displaced by these highways through mostly undeveloped rural exurban and rural land claiming these highways should be stopped because of the danger to Lake Thunderbird are, as you state, grasping at straws to stop the eminent domain process.

I’m not saying the rose rocks shouldn’t be protected, but 90% of the people talking about them in the context of the turnpikes probably have no idea what they even are. All they care about is they can treat them like an endangered species to tie up the project in court until OTA abandons it. These NIMBYs know “because I don’t like it” isn’t exactly a persuasive argument against planning and building stuff, so they have to find something to get “experts” on board with to look more convincing. Who cares how much of that cause is legitimate or if it’s really an important issue to them. The end justifies the means.

Completely agree.

[rte66man]

Latest press release remarking that OTA did NOT get permission from the US Bureau of Reclamation to cross 2 sections of its property near Lake Thunderbird:

Wednesday, Jan. 18, 2023, the U.S. Bureau of Reclamation formally responded to the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority’s application to cross two sections of its property for turnpike expansion under the ACCESS Oklahoma plan. Citing Congressionally authorized purposes for the land, the agency denied OTA’s application along the route of the South Extension turnpike as it does not meet the land’s intended purposes. USBR owns the land on which The Norman Project (Lake Thunderbird, the Norman Dam and the associated water conveyance system) is located.

OTA’s proposed alignment took into consideration the least impactful route, relating to homes, businesses and the environment. It was also the most beneficial for future traffic growth. OTA appreciates the feedback from the agency as well as its willingness to work with the OTA to identify other prospective crossings.  “This is the planning process working as it should. New alignments often get changed early on,” says OTA Deputy Director and Chief Engineer Joe Echelle. “Now we’ll start gathering information to make adjustments. We’ve got time since the South Extension is in the final phase of the 15-year, long-range plan.”

The decision will require OTA modify the direction of the proposed alignment of the South Extension turnpike to avoid USBR fee title land. The agency did indicate willingness to work with OTA on an alignment across pipeline and flowage easements. OTA will continue to coordinate and plan the East-West Connector to ensure the easement crossings are planned, designed and constructed without interfering with the easement interests or the Norman Project’s infrastructure or operation.

[Bobby5280]

Construction of the Kickapoo Turnpike south extension is in the final phase of the 15 year plan? That's weird. I figured it might be one of the first projects built since it's in mostly rural area. I hope they at least work at securing ROW once a final alignment is chosen.

I wonder if the OTA will build out any of these turnpike projects in phases, such as an initial Super-2 configuration with the second pair of lanes added later.