What is "The South?"

[Max Rockatansky]

My hometown feels so left out.  Since Corpus Christi is not considered part of "The South" (whatever that context means), we're not part of the north either, and we're not east nor west.  Then where do we fit in?  I'm sure Miami, Tampa/St. Pete, and Orlando all feel the same way I do.  Maybe we're too far south to be considered "The South" I guess.

The Tampa area definitely has some Civil War backstory to it.  The era of the Seminole Wars definitely put the entirety of Florida in Deep South territory to me even if the modern populace doesn't reflect that. 

[MATraveler128]

Everything except the Florida peninsula. I'd say south of Jacksonville feels different than the south. The Miami area with its large Hispanic population feels much more like a different place than the rest of the South.

[skluth]

I find this map interesting in part because the South here is divided into smaller units. The northern parts of "The South" here are part of Appalachia, which makes sense from both a culture and a physical geography perspective. It also has SE Louisiana and South Florida broken out as parts of New France and the Spanish Caribbean respectively. Tidewater is also separate, though I think it should be part of the South. It certainly felt that way when I lived in Portsmouth.

[bing101]

I find this map interesting in part because the South here is divided into smaller units. The northern parts of "The South" here are part of Appalachia, which makes sense from both a culture and a physical geography perspective. It also has SE Louisiana and South Florida broken out as parts of New France and the Spanish Caribbean respectively. Tidewater is also separate, though I think it should be part of the South. It certainly felt that way when I lived in Portsmouth.

That is interesting that Sacramento is considered "Far West" and San Francisco is listed as "The Left Coast". That second city that's on the border between Far West and Left Coast is Oakland or Napa? I doubt they are thinking of areas like Vacaville, Suisun City, Davis and Fairfield given that this is a national map on regions. Also Sacramento at one time could have been "Far West" but today it's more on the side of "The Left Coast" if we are going to base this on current demos in the area.  Also Washington DC and Baltimore are in three places like Appalachia, Tidewater and Midlands at the same time. Its interesting that "The Left coast" combines Appalachia and Yankeedom descriptions together. However,  once you enter San Francisco, San Mateo and Santa Clara Counties the New Amsterdam characteristics come into play too.


Phoenix and Albuquerque are on the border of Far West and El Norte at the same time,  Atlanta and Little Rock are at the border of Appalachia and Deep South.  St. Louis and Columbus, are at the border of The Midlands and Appalachia. I was thinking US Regions would be more like this one though the one Wikipedia cited.

[texaskdog]

the idea of the map is good but that many regions and you have Minnesota with the Northeast?  Come on!

[1995hoo]

"Corpus Christi" sounds like some sorta foreigner-speak, so y'all are clearly part of Mexico. /s

Historic anti-Catholic bigotry in large parts of the South would strongly suggest that any place named "Corpus Christi" is not in the South.

[Urban Prairie Schooner]

Texas belongs in various regions.

East Texas is definitely part of the south. Any place with pine trees would constitute East Texas. There is not much apparent difference between E TX and northern Louisiana.

South Texas is part of Greater Mexico. This would include San Antonio, the RGV, Laredo, and Corpus Christi.

The desert/dry parts of West Texas are certainly Greater Mexican/southwestern.

The Panhandle is obviously part of the Great Plains/Midwest region.

Dallas/North Texas feels midwestern geographically, but being a polyglot of migration from everywhere the cultural influences come from all corners. Not just Southern whites/blacks and Hispanics (natives and immigrants), but also Asian and Middle Eastern influence.  Plano is ground zero for Korean cuisine in possibly all of America.

Houston is similar but with a more Southern feel, both in climate, geography and demographics.

The most "Texas" feeling parts in Texas to me are the Hill Country and the vast prairie hinterland within the Texas Triangle.

As for Louisiana, while culturally and geographically a southern state there are unique cultural elements (Creole, Cajun) that make the southern part of the state feel somewhat "separate" from the "classic" Deep South.  Also the "standard" Southern accent is absent in south LA, or in muted form in certain areas such as Baton Rouge. The Acadiana region has its own Cajun-influenced accent and of course many New Orleans speakers have the fabled "yat" accent common to the white working classes of that region.

[tdindy88]

the idea of the map is good but that many regions and you have Minnesota with the Northeast?  Come on!

Also, eastern New Mexico a part of Greater Appalachia?

[SectorZ]

"Corpus Christi" sounds like some sorta foreigner-speak, so y'all are clearly part of Mexico. /s

Historic anti-Catholic bigotry in large parts of the South would strongly suggest that any place named "Corpus Christi" is not in the South.

Since when has the "Body of Christ" been exclusively a Catholic concept in the bounds of Christianity?

[1995hoo]

"Corpus Christi" sounds like some sorta foreigner-speak, so y'all are clearly part of Mexico. /s

Historic anti-Catholic bigotry in large parts of the South would strongly suggest that any place named "Corpus Christi" is not in the South.

Since when has the "Body of Christ" been exclusively a Catholic concept in the bounds of Christianity?

Those two particular words are generally associated with Catholicism in part because of the liturgical day with that name and primarily because of the phrase's use in the Latin Mass in conjunction with the Eucharist. The city in Texas got its name because the first Spaniard to sail to the area named after the day on which he arrived (Corpus Christi, traditionally the Thursday after Trinity Sunday). Most Protestant denominations do not observe Corpus Christi.

[Scott5114]

Spanish explorers had a funny habit of doing that (naming locations after whatever the saint of the day was when they visited them). Thus areas where the Spanish were the first to explore having so many sorta interchangeable names: San Benito, San Bernardino, San Escritorio, Santa Rosa, Santa Barbara, Santa Vaca, or whatever.

[roadman65]

San Francisco after St. Francis of Assisi which is ironic considering the city is the most far from Catholic values with it being the capital of things from Acid Rock to the LGBT movement.

[dvferyance]

Here we go again.

Ask most Kentuckians if they live in "the south" and they'll answer in the affirmative. Ask them if they live in "the midwest" and you'll get a dirty look at best and a good cussing at worst.

Even the ones that live in Newport right across the river from Cincinatti? While I have always thought of Kentucky as being more southern than midwestern I never thought it was 100% the south.

[kkt]

San Francisco after St. Francis of Assisi which is ironic considering the city is the most far from Catholic values with it being the capital of things from Acid Rock to the LGBT movement.

Pretty strong on "love thy neighbor" and leaving judgement to God, though.

[webny99]

I agree that not all of Texas is the South. San Antonio has a distinct southwestern vibe; it's not El Paso, but it's very different than the Deep South.

I like the idea of defining the south as two or three "rings" with the inner ring being the true deep south (LA/MS/AL/GA/SC and probably TN), a second ring for parts of eastern MO/OK/TX plus KY, southern IL/IN/OH and possibly NC/VA, and a third ring for southern FL, Baltimore/DC, and central OK/TX, including Dallas.

Baltimore and DC are in no iteration of the South.

Oh, I disagree very strongly with that. Much of Maryland has a southern accent and everything. The DC area has maybe become less southern in character in the past few decades, but there's definitely still ties and associations with the traditional South. And that's not to mention the southern Delmarva peninsula, which is pretty much quintessential South in just about every way imaginable.

[The Nature Boy]

These discussions always have a strong undercurrent of "a cosmopolitan place can't be Southern." A place doesn't stop being Southern when it becomes cosmopolitan or diverse.

[Roadgeekteen]

The Former Confederacy + Kentucky, Oklahoma and West Virginia. Maybe Southern Missouri but I still consider Missouri to be a midwestern state. Northern Virginia and South Florida aren't really culturally southern but I still consider them to be part of the south.

[US 89]

These discussions always have a strong undercurrent of "a cosmopolitan place can't be Southern." A place doesn't stop being Southern when it becomes cosmopolitan or diverse.

As someone who lived in Atlanta for four years, this is very much accurate.

Maryland and Virginia absolutely used to be 100% Southern. That's why DC is where it is - as a concession to the southern states in exchange for creating a system where the federal government would assume the states' debt from the American Revolution. Southern states either didn't have as much debt or had paid more of it off, so they did not want to have to subsidize northern states' unpaid debt. As a concession for setting up that system, the planned national capital was located in the South.

The thing though is that at least in the case of northern Virginia/DC suburbs, it goes beyond just being more cosmopolitan - a whole lot of northeastern culture has been imported to a degree far more than you see in other large southern cities like Memphis or Nashville or Atlanta. The eastern NC metros are in the early stages of something similar.

The Former Confederacy + Kentucky, Oklahoma and West Virginia. Northern Virginia and South Florida aren't really part culturally southern but I still consider them to be part of the south. Missouri is not southern and I hate when people try to call it southern.

Someone has clearly never been to the Ozarks. Or anywhere in Oklahoma west of US 69.

[Hot Rod Hootenanny]

Anything below I-70

I had a friend from Wildwood, Florida who always joked that I-10 was the Mason Dixon line. 

Yeah, I had a classmate, during my LSU grad school excursion, that said the same thing.

[Hot Rod Hootenanny]

My hometown feels so left out.  Since Corpus Christi is not considered part of "The South" (whatever that context means), we're not part of the north either, and we're not east nor west.  Then where do we fit in?  I'm sure Miami, Tampa/St. Pete, and Orlando all feel the same way I do.  Maybe we're too far south to be considered "The South" I guess.

North Mexico

More like "South America" (to quote Bo Diddley)

[TXtoNJ]

the idea of the map is good but that many regions and you have Minnesota with the Northeast?  Come on!

Also, eastern New Mexico a part of Greater Appalachia?

That region's called "Little Texas".

[ozarkman417]

The Former Confederacy + Kentucky, Oklahoma and West Virginia. Northern Virginia and South Florida aren't really part culturally southern but I still consider them to be part of the south. Missouri is not southern and I hate when people try to call it southern.

Someone has clearly never been to the Ozarks. Or anywhere in Oklahoma west of US 69.

An Ozarkian's take on this:
I've always seen the Ozark region as a border region that, generally speaking, does not fit neatly in either "the midwest" or "the south". If we want to draw lines, I would put anywhere north of I-44 as midwestern, and anything south of the parallel 36.5 North as southern. Between there is a sort of transition zone.

Despite being only being 1.5 hours from Greene County, the Boston Mountain area feels distinctly southern compared to the former... particularly when it comes to the prevalence of the southern accent, and of course all the unfortunate things Harrison, AR is known for. Yet in both areas, there is very little racial diversity and high adherence to the Southern Baptist Church. Most Ozark counties in both states are ~90% White... certainly not the case with the "deep south".

A bit of a side note, the furthest north I've seen a Confederate flag flying in MO is along MO-7 between Clinton and Harrisonville.

[US 89]

the idea of the map is good but that many regions and you have Minnesota with the Northeast?  Come on!

Also, eastern New Mexico a part of Greater Appalachia?

That region's called "Little Texas".

Eastern New Mexico is the second most socioeconomically depressed place in the US I have ever been (behind only the Navajo reservation). Drive through Harding County and it really hits you just how dead and poor much of that region is. I don't agree with assigning "Appalachia" to anything west of the Mississippi, but I certainly see the comparison.

I don't see much of a comparison to even panhandle Texas though. Not like that's much of a utopia but at least there are a lot of cows and some semblance of life and activity.

[jgb191]

If I remember from all my Texas history courses (middle school, high school, and college) that South Texas might not even have been part of the US if Mexico had it their way; they wanted the Nueces River to be the international border (which would have meant Portland (TX) would have been on the US side and Corpus Christi on the Mexico side), while the Republic of Texas insisted the border be the Rio Grande.  Thankfully cooler heads prevailed and a peace treaty was signed to its current location.

[US 89]

The Former Confederacy + Kentucky, Oklahoma and West Virginia. Northern Virginia and South Florida aren't really part culturally southern but I still consider them to be part of the south. Missouri is not southern and I hate when people try to call it southern.

Someone has clearly never been to the Ozarks. Or anywhere in Oklahoma west of US 69.

An Ozarkian's take on this:
I've always seen the Ozark region as a border region that, generally speaking, does not fit neatly in either "the midwest" or "the south". If we want to draw lines, I would put anywhere north of I-44 as midwestern, and anything south of the parallel 36.5 North as southern. Between there is a sort of transition zone.

Despite being only being 1.5 hours from Greene County, the Boston Mountain area feels distinctly southern compared to the former... particularly when it comes to the prevalence of the southern accent, and of course all the unfortunate things Harrison, AR is known for. Yet in both areas, there is very little racial diversity and high adherence to the Southern Baptist Church. Most Ozark counties in both states are ~90% White... certainly not the case with the "deep south".

A bit of a side note, the furthest north I've seen a Confederate flag flying in MO is along MO-7 between Clinton and Harrisonville.

I think the thing that gets me about Missouri is the roads. One of the things I associate with Midwestern places is a pretty good grid of PLSS section-line roads, or at least a bunch of long, straight, compass-oriented roads. Rural northern Missouri has some of that, Kansas City comes close but most of their roads are skewed a bit, St Louis doesn't have much of it at all, and good luck even finding a road that goes straight in the southern half of the state. Missouri's rural road network is overall really similar to what you'd find in the deep or fringe south. Reminds me most of Kentucky.

As far as the racial distribution goes...I don't think you necessarily need a high black population to be considered Southern. Northern AL/GA/eastern TN don't really and you don't really get anyone trying to argue those are something else:



The highest density of confederate flags I've ever seen was in the Ozark region of southern Missouri and northern Arkansas (and I've done a lot of driving through the deep South). West Plains, MO and Southwest City, MO specifically jump to mind. Based on what I saw when I drove through there a few years ago, I would probably avoid that area if I were any sort of minority.

I think, from the various times I've been through Missouri on different routes, I would put anything south of I-44 as definitively Southern and end that more or less around I-70. Kansas City and St Louis are both pretty Midwestern feeling, while there is definitely a southern element to Jefferson City.