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Gas-guzzling "Sport Utility Vehicles"

Started by Hwy 61 Revisited, March 31, 2021, 03:29:54 PM

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Hwy 61 Revisited

Spun off from a derailed thread about unpopular road opinions, which was derailed by someone who would have preferred to discuss their distaste for SUVs.


The discussion will continue here.
And you may ask yourself, where does that highway go to?
--David Byrne


kphoger

Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

JayhawkCO


StogieGuy7

Quote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 03:31:21 PM
What does "gas-prone" mean?

It means you have to be very picky about the fuel you give them.

plain

I thought you meant gas guzzling when I saw the title lol
Newark born, Richmond bred

HighwayStar

Quote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 31, 2021, 03:29:54 PM
Spun off from a derailed thread about unpopular road opinions, which was derailed by someone who would have preferred to discuss their distaste for SUVs.


The discussion will continue here.

I want to point out I did not "derail" anything, the title asked for an unpopular opinion, I gave one, most subsequent posters chose to contest my point rather than add anything else to the thread.  :sombrero:
There are those who travel, and those who travel well

JayhawkCO

Quote from: StogieGuy7 on March 31, 2021, 03:32:36 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 03:31:21 PM
What does "gas-prone" mean?

It means you have to be very picky about the fuel you give them.

My Jeep doesn't require premium gas.  I don't follow.

Chris

JayhawkCO

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 03:34:18 PM
Quote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 31, 2021, 03:29:54 PM
Spun off from a derailed thread about unpopular road opinions, which was derailed by someone who would have preferred to discuss their distaste for SUVs.


The discussion will continue here.

I want to point out I did not "derail" anything, the title asked for an unpopular opinion, I gave one, most subsequent posters chose to contest my point rather than add anything else to the thread.  :sombrero:

Hey, it's a discussion board.  We were discussing. :nod:  I didn't have other unpopular opinions to add to the thread because my opinions are all right.  :bigass:

Chris

Hwy 61 Revisited

#8
Changed the title to avoid the snowclone from the Modern Roundabouts thread, and avoid further confusion

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 03:34:18 PM
I want to point out I did not "derail" anything, the title asked for an unpopular opinion, I gave one, most subsequent posters chose to contest my point rather than add anything else to the thread.
When a general topic of conversation is almost immediately steered toward one topic, this counts as derailment. This is like if FritzOwl decided to invade one's threads with their Interstate ideas.
And you may ask yourself, where does that highway go to?
--David Byrne

JayhawkCO

Quote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 31, 2021, 03:37:52 PM
Changed the title to avoid the snowclone from the Modern Roundabouts thread.

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 03:34:18 PM
I want to point out I did not "derail" anything, the title asked for an unpopular opinion, I gave one, most subsequent posters chose to contest my point rather than add anything else to the thread.
When a general topic of conversation is almost immediately steered toward one topic, this counts as derailment. This is like if FritzOwl decided to invade one's threads with their Interstate ideas.

We might agree to disagree, but is the point of a thread just to write down some words and then have no one comment on them?  That's seems incredibly boring.  Again, the whole point of a discussion board is to discuss.

Chris

kphoger

If this is a thread dedicated to gas-guzzling sport utility vehicles, then it is not the same thing as the discussion on the other board.  Not all SUVs are gas-guzzlers.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

HighwayStar

Quote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 03:41:17 PM
If this is a thread dedicated to gas-guzzling sport utility vehicles, then it is not the same thing as the discussion on the other board.  Not all SUVs are gas-guzzlers.

They are all gas guzzlers relative to an equivalent vehicle build in a sedan or station wagon configuration. Yes, you can compare some I4 SUV to a V8 Sedan and make the claim that the SUV is more fuel efficient. But if you take ANY SUV and make no changes other than dropping the ride height you reduce air resistance and end up with a more fuel efficient vehicle. You cannot cheat physics.
There are those who travel, and those who travel well

JayhawkCO

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 03:44:33 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 03:41:17 PM
If this is a thread dedicated to gas-guzzling sport utility vehicles, then it is not the same thing as the discussion on the other board.  Not all SUVs are gas-guzzlers.

They are all gas guzzlers relative to an equivalent vehicle build in a sedan or station wagon configuration. Yes, you can compare some I4 SUV to a V8 Sedan and make the claim that the SUV is more fuel efficient. But if you take ANY SUV and make no changes other than dropping the ride height you reduce air resistance and end up with a more fuel efficient vehicle. You cannot cheat physics.

I'll try one more time.  What is your take on the all-electric Hummer?

Chris

Max Rockatansky

I never was bothered by them personally although I probably wouldn't get another unless it was strictly a recreational oriented vehicle.  My wife had a Forester and we do use it for it's intended purpose...my Impreza ain't bad either off road.

HighwayStar

Quote from: jayhawkco on March 31, 2021, 03:47:36 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 03:44:33 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 03:41:17 PM
If this is a thread dedicated to gas-guzzling sport utility vehicles, then it is not the same thing as the discussion on the other board.  Not all SUVs are gas-guzzlers.

They are all gas guzzlers relative to an equivalent vehicle build in a sedan or station wagon configuration. Yes, you can compare some I4 SUV to a V8 Sedan and make the claim that the SUV is more fuel efficient. But if you take ANY SUV and make no changes other than dropping the ride height you reduce air resistance and end up with a more fuel efficient vehicle. You cannot cheat physics.

I'll try one more time.  What is your take on the all-electric Hummer?

Chris

It is STILL less energy efficient than an equivalent vehicle in a Station Wagon configuration. Again you CANNOT cheat physics. And it still incurs all of the rollover, override accident, etc. issues.
There are those who travel, and those who travel well

kphoger

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 03:44:33 PM
But if you take ANY SUV and make no changes other than dropping the ride height you reduce air resistance and end up with a more fuel efficient vehicle. You cannot cheat physics.

Not true.  Aerodynamics and fuel economy are more than just ride height.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

HighwayStar

Quote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 03:52:21 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 03:44:33 PM
But if you take ANY SUV and make no changes other than dropping the ride height you reduce air resistance and end up with a more fuel efficient vehicle. You cannot cheat physics.

Not true.  Aerodynamics and fuel economy are more than just ride height.

Again equivalent vehicle, as in all things remain the same except drive height. At that point it is solely ride height being the independent variable, all others are fixed.
There are those who travel, and those who travel well

JayhawkCO

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 03:50:44 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on March 31, 2021, 03:47:36 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 03:44:33 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 03:41:17 PM
If this is a thread dedicated to gas-guzzling sport utility vehicles, then it is not the same thing as the discussion on the other board.  Not all SUVs are gas-guzzlers.

They are all gas guzzlers relative to an equivalent vehicle build in a sedan or station wagon configuration. Yes, you can compare some I4 SUV to a V8 Sedan and make the claim that the SUV is more fuel efficient. But if you take ANY SUV and make no changes other than dropping the ride height you reduce air resistance and end up with a more fuel efficient vehicle. You cannot cheat physics.

I'll try one more time.  What is your take on the all-electric Hummer?

Chris

It is STILL less energy efficient than an equivalent vehicle in a Station Wagon configuration. Again you CANNOT cheat physics. And it still incurs all of the rollover, override accident, etc. issues.

But it is STILL more energy efficient than a gasoline-engine sedan, something you're not trying to ban.  If you were saying all cars should have a fuel efficiency of xxx, I might disagree, but at least I'd understand your point.  I'm trying to figure out exactly which characteristic it is of SUVs that makes the ban necessary.  It's clearly not fuel efficiency, as this point would eliminate.  It's not safety features, as your unwillingness to apparently be concerned about older passenger cars doesn't apply.  I guess it's also not ground clearance, since a Honda CR-V (SUV) has lower ground clearance than an Audi A4 Allroad.  Is it just the "look"? 

Chris

kphoger

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 03:58:58 PM

Quote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 03:52:21 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 03:44:33 PM
But if you take ANY SUV and make no changes other than dropping the ride height you reduce air resistance and end up with a more fuel efficient vehicle. You cannot cheat physics.

Not true.  Aerodynamics and fuel economy are more than just ride height.

Again equivalent vehicle, as in all things remain the same except drive height. At that point it is solely ride height being the independent variable, all others are fixed.

If you lower the height of my SUV, then where are you taking the inches from?

Are you taking it from the ground clearance?  If so, then all things are no longer equal.

Are you taking it from my headroom?  If so, then all things are no longer equal.

If you reduce the height of a vehicle, then the whole shape of it will need to be redesigned.  After the redesign, it may or may not be more fuel efficient.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

HighwayStar

Quote from: jayhawkco on March 31, 2021, 03:59:09 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 03:50:44 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on March 31, 2021, 03:47:36 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 03:44:33 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 03:41:17 PM
If this is a thread dedicated to gas-guzzling sport utility vehicles, then it is not the same thing as the discussion on the other board.  Not all SUVs are gas-guzzlers.

They are all gas guzzlers relative to an equivalent vehicle build in a sedan or station wagon configuration. Yes, you can compare some I4 SUV to a V8 Sedan and make the claim that the SUV is more fuel efficient. But if you take ANY SUV and make no changes other than dropping the ride height you reduce air resistance and end up with a more fuel efficient vehicle. You cannot cheat physics.

I'll try one more time.  What is your take on the all-electric Hummer?

Chris

It is STILL less energy efficient than an equivalent vehicle in a Station Wagon configuration. Again you CANNOT cheat physics. And it still incurs all of the rollover, override accident, etc. issues.

But it is STILL more energy efficient than a gasoline-engine sedan, something you're not trying to ban.  If you were saying all cars should have a fuel efficiency of xxx, I might disagree, but at least I'd understand your point.  I'm trying to figure out exactly which characteristic it is of SUVs that makes the ban necessary.  It's clearly not fuel efficiency, as this point would eliminate.  It's not safety features, as your unwillingness to apparently be concerned about older passenger cars doesn't apply.  I guess it's also not ground clearance, since a Honda CR-V (SUV) has lower ground clearance than an Audi A4 Allroad.  Is it just the "look"? 

Chris

That is NOT the relevant comparison however, the gasoline driven sedan obviously offers different utility being compatible with the existing fuel infrastructure. What I am seeking to eliminate is the Deadweight Loss due to excess ride height, which was driven by regulation in the first place. Has nothing to do with looks.
There are those who travel, and those who travel well

kphoger

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 03:44:33 PM

Quote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 03:41:17 PM
If this is a thread dedicated to gas-guzzling sport utility vehicles, then it is not the same thing as the discussion on the other board.  Not all SUVs are gas-guzzlers.

They are all gas guzzlers relative to an equivalent vehicle build in a sedan or station wagon configuration. Yes, you can compare some I4 SUV to a V8 Sedan and make the claim that the SUV is more fuel efficient. But if you take ANY SUV and make no changes other than dropping the ride height you reduce air resistance and end up with a more fuel efficient vehicle. You cannot cheat physics.

In my comparison, I showed you a seven-passenger V6 SUV that was both shorter and lighter than a seven-passenger V6 non-SUV.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

HighwayStar

Quote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 04:08:56 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 03:44:33 PM

Quote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 03:41:17 PM
If this is a thread dedicated to gas-guzzling sport utility vehicles, then it is not the same thing as the discussion on the other board.  Not all SUVs are gas-guzzlers.

They are all gas guzzlers relative to an equivalent vehicle build in a sedan or station wagon configuration. Yes, you can compare some I4 SUV to a V8 Sedan and make the claim that the SUV is more fuel efficient. But if you take ANY SUV and make no changes other than dropping the ride height you reduce air resistance and end up with a more fuel efficient vehicle. You cannot cheat physics.

In my comparison, I showed you a seven-passenger V6 SUV that was both shorter and lighter than a seven-passenger V6 non-SUV.

Which is entirely irrelevant because they are NOT the same vehicle. You are comparing two different designs, so you have piles of confounding variables. Sure, it can be shorter and lighter, both of those however are other compromises. You change ONE variable at a time, not dozens.
There are those who travel, and those who travel well

kphoger

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 04:11:36 PM

Quote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 04:08:56 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on March 31, 2021, 03:44:33 PM

Quote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 03:41:17 PM
If this is a thread dedicated to gas-guzzling sport utility vehicles, then it is not the same thing as the discussion on the other board.  Not all SUVs are gas-guzzlers.

They are all gas guzzlers relative to an equivalent vehicle build in a sedan or station wagon configuration. Yes, you can compare some I4 SUV to a V8 Sedan and make the claim that the SUV is more fuel efficient. But if you take ANY SUV and make no changes other than dropping the ride height you reduce air resistance and end up with a more fuel efficient vehicle. You cannot cheat physics.

In my comparison, I showed you a seven-passenger V6 SUV that was both shorter and lighter than a seven-passenger V6 non-SUV.

Which is entirely irrelevant because they are NOT the same vehicle. You are comparing two different designs, so you have piles of confounding variables. Sure, it can be shorter and lighter, both of those however are other compromises. You change ONE variable at a time, not dozens.

That's exactly the point all of us are trying to make.

When you compare my Nissan Pathfinder to a Toyota Camry and then decide my car should be banned from on-road use but the Camry is A-OK, you are comparing two different designs.

If you make a vehicle less tall, then it is NOT the same vehicle either.  Something has to be compromised in order to reduce the height.

Not all SUVs are gas-guzzlers.  There is no such thing as "an equivalent vehicle build in a sedan or station wagon configuration".  By necessity, something in those configurations is not equivalent.  They don't have the same ground clearance, or they don't have the same headroom, or they don't have the same ability to tow, or they don't have the same cargo space, or they don't have the same mud and snow handling, or a whole litany of other things.  I bought my SUV because it has high ground clearance and is body-on-frame construction, because I need those things for my non-commercial, non-leisure purposes.  No sedan or station wagon is comparable.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

JayhawkCO

Quote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 04:24:32 PM
That's exactly the point all of us are trying to make.

When you compare my Nissan Pathfinder to a Toyota Camry and then decide my car should be banned from on-road use but the Camry is A-OK, you are comparing two different designs.

If you make a vehicle less tall, then it is NOT the same vehicle either.  Something has to be compromised in order to reduce the height.

Not all SUVs are gas-guzzlers.  There is no such thing as "an equivalent vehicle build in a sedan or station wagon configuration".  By necessity, something in those configurations is not equivalent.  They don't have the same ground clearance, or they don't have the same headroom, or they don't have the same ability to tow, or they don't have the same cargo space, or they don't have the same mud and snow handling, or a whole litany of other things.  I bought my SUV because it has high ground clearance and is body-on-frame construction, because I need those things for my non-commercial, non-leisure purposes.  No sedan or station wagon is comparable.

Ding ding ding.  If you want to ban something, you have to determine what it is that makes it different from the things you don't want to ban. In order to do that, you have to compare it to something different.  Every time we bring up that different thing, you (HighwayStar) call it a straw man.  I'm aware a Camry and a Wrangler have a whole bunch of things not in common.  What you have failed to demonstrate though, is what it is specifically about the Wrangler that is what you deem prohibitive, because each of the characteristics you've brought up, we've been able to show you an applicable example that you wouldn't ban that also has the same characteristic.

At risk of bringing up the same "straw men":

Fuel Efficiency?  Wrangler better than a Lamborghini
Safety? Wrangler safer than a '57 Chevy
Ground Clearance? CR-V lower than an Audi A4 Allroad
Weight? Wrangler lighter than a Bentley
Likelihood of an accident? Wrangler better than a motorcycle

Chris

kphoger

Quote from: jayhawkco on March 31, 2021, 04:36:57 PM
Fuel Efficiency?  Wrangler better than a Lamborghini
Safety? Wrangler safer than a '57 Chevy
Ground Clearance? CR-V lower than an Audi A4 Allroad
Weight? Wrangler lighter than a Bentley
Likelihood of an accident? Wrangler better than a motorcycle

Height?  A lot of SUVs shorter than a lot of minivans
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.



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