Inspired by the Chicagoland thread, and since I was just thinking about this recently...
We've all heard the joke that to a Manhattanite, even the Bronx counts as Upstate. But to me, raised in Western NY, the term "Upstate" definitely excludes quite a lot of NY's southernmost area. And I believe that I can cite plenty of empirical justification for my definition of Upstate.
My usual definition says that if Metro North serves an area, it is not Upstate, because it has direct and regular commuting ties to Manhattan. (I think we all agree that Manhattan is, for every purpose of the term, not Upstate.)
A similar and even more concrete definition would be that Upstate is everything outside of the Metropolitan Commuter Transportation District, which encompasses everything south and east of Orange and Dutchess counties, inclusive.
So what's your definition of "Upstate", and can you tie it to some definable criteria (rather than just saying, "I think Upstate stops around here")?
*n.b.: I'm only speaking of the term as an absolute–as in, this area is "Upstate" and that one isn't. There's also a relative sense of the term–as in, "White Plains is upstate of Yonkers"–which I think stands alone.
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Does WNY usually consider itself to be upstate NY or is WNY a third category?
Personally I would think anything above that parallel that divides NY and PA as Upstate NY
Quote from: empirestate on June 10, 2016, 11:44:08 PM
Inspired by the Chicagoland thread, and since I was just thinking about this recently...
We've all heard the joke that to a Manhattanite, even the Bronx counts as Upstate. But to me, raised in Western NY, the term "Upstate" definitely excludes quite a lot of NY's southernmost area. And I believe that I can cite plenty of empirical justification for my definition of Upstate.
My usual definition says that if Metro North serves an area, it is not Upstate, because it has direct and regular commuting ties to Manhattan. (I think we all agree that Manhattan is, for every purpose of the term, not Upstate.)
A similar and even more concrete definition would be that Upstate is everything outside of the Metropolitan Commuter Transportation District, which encompasses everything south and east of Orange and Dutchess counties, inclusive.
So what's your definition of "Upstate", and can you tie it to some definable criteria (rather than just saying, "I think Upstate stops around here")?
*n.b.: I'm only speaking of the term as an absolute–as in, this area is "Upstate" and that one isn't. There's also a relative sense of the term–as in, "White Plains is upstate of Yonkers"–which I think stands alone.
iPhone
Anywhere that isn't Long Island, New York City, or Westchester County.
I'm finding myself thinking Upstate is bigger and bigger the longer I live here. Used to think it was I-84 that was the dividing line. I'm now thinking Westchester/Rockland are downstate.
Quote from: MisterSG1 on June 10, 2016, 11:50:45 PM
Does WNY usually consider itself to be upstate NY or is WNY a third category?
I never thought of it as such. However, I feel like "Western NY" is a term used more by the Buffalo area, so they might feel differently.
QuotePersonally I would think anything above that parallel that divides NY and PA as Upstate NY
I can see that; looking at where that line passes, I do feel there's a slight socio-cultural shift there. However, this does give the odd circumstance of putting half of the Catskill region Upstate and the other half Downstate; do you suppose many people in Kingston say "I'm heading Upstate" and then just drive to Woodstock?
Quote from: CobaltYoshi27 on June 11, 2016, 12:04:08 AM
Anywhere that isn't Long Island, New York City, or Westchester County.
I actually live in Putnam County, literally walking distance from the Westchester line. What difference do you see between those areas that would make my home be Upstate, but the gas station down the hill in Cortlandt not Upstate? (I am asking genuinely; I actually do notice a very slight difference myself from one side of the county line to the other. But I also notice that heading north from my house, things get an awful lot more Downstate-y before they start to get Upstate-y, which is why I consider the boundary to be much farther north.)
Quote from: Rothman on June 11, 2016, 12:08:05 AM
I'm finding myself thinking Upstate is bigger and bigger the longer I live here. Used to think it was I-84 that was the dividing line. I'm now thinking Westchester/Rockland are downstate.
I-84 as the divider would still put Westchester and Rockland downstate. How has your perception of Downstate narrowed?
I was a little hurried when I wrote the OP–I was commuting from Manhattan to another non-Upstate area, by definition ;-)–but when I mention "concrete" or "empirical" criteria, I mean finding a way in which one's day-to-day life would be different depending on whether one lives Upstate or not. Using my Metro North example, I would say that I don't live Upstate because Upstate, by my definition, is not a place one can reside in and still commute readily to NYC, which I do. Or, if I use the Metropolitan District definition, it means I have to pay a whole bunch of extra money when I do things like register my car, and that extra levy is based at least theoretically on the aforementioned commuting ties to NYC.
So, if you use a definition that's based on a geographical line or political boundary, can you show how living (or working, or visiting) on one side or the other of that line measurably impacts one's day-to-day affairs?
I know we got into a discussion on this a while back, but I don't feel like looking for the thread. To me though, anything north of the Bronx is considered Upstate.
And I still remember a small green sign on NY 119 approaching US 9 and the Thruway interchange saying "Upstate" (straight ahead) and "New York" (left arrow).
Anything north and west of Westchester county.
I consider I-84 the border.
Quote from: D-Dey65 on June 11, 2016, 12:51:57 AM
I know we got into a discussion on this a while back, but I don't feel like looking for the thread. To me though, anything north of the Bronx is considered Upstate.
And I still remember a small green sign on NY 119 approaching US 9 and the Thruway interchange saying "Upstate" (straight ahead) and "New York" (left arrow).
Interesting, so you would have considered that signage to be wrong, since a part of your "Upstate" would lie in the direction of the left arrow as well (the part between the Bronx line and NY 119)? Or would you take "upstate" in this case to be the relative sense, essentially synonymous with "north"?
So what are the day-to-day differences between the Bronx and Yonkers, or Mt. Vernon? If we look at this Street View (https://goo.gl/maps/32U7oCD8Pc82), what makes you consider the view towards the right to be Upstate, and the view to the left not to be?
Quote from: mariethefoxy on June 11, 2016, 12:58:57 AM
Anything north and west of Westchester county.
OK, same question as before: what do you see as different between Westchester County, and Rockland or Putnam County? Remember, it's a two-part question: first, what's your definition of Upstate; and second, how does it definably impact everyday life and business?
I always considered Upstate New York as everything north from Binghamton/I-88 east to Albany then north of I-90 from Albany to the MA line.
Quote from: thenetwork on June 11, 2016, 12:19:58 PM
I always considered Upstate New York as everything north from Binghamton/I-88 east to Albany then north of I-90 from Albany to the MA line.
I'm pretty sure that's the narrowest definition I've seen so far. :-) So that, for example, would put Otsego County almost entirely Upstate, whereas most of Schoharie County would be Downstate. What strikes you as the the defining difference between these two counties?
iPhone
Everything north of Co-op City.
Everything north and west of the 845 area code (northern/western border of Orange, Ulster, and Dutchess Counties). I call everthing west of Utica and Binghamton "Western New York"
Everything north of NY 17 and NY 55 (incl. multiplexes).
Quote from: noelbotevera on June 11, 2016, 02:49:48 PM
Everything north of NY 17 and NY 55 (incl. multiplexes).
You just excluded more than half of Binghamton.
Upstate used to be everything that's not NYC, but people from out of state still don't know you're not from NYC (or very close to it) when you tell them you're from "upstate" and I think this has a lot to do with all the NYC-themed TV shows. Anytime TV shows refer to "upstate" it's always some county that's only a few miles (relatively) from NYC. Western-NY has seemed to come more into prominence to help people understand that we're not from NYC, we just pay all their bills.
Quote from: empirestate on June 11, 2016, 12:41:22 PM
Quote from: thenetwork on June 11, 2016, 12:19:58 PM
I always considered Upstate New York as everything north from Binghamton/I-88 east to Albany then north of I-90 from Albany to the MA line.
I'm pretty sure that's the narrowest definition I've seen so far. :-) So that, for example, would put Otsego County almost entirely Upstate, whereas most of Schoharie County would be Downstate. What strikes you as the the defining difference between these two counties?
(Removed spam)
Well, I have an even narrower definition of Upstate New York: North of I-90. However, the area between the end of NYC built-up area and I-90 is a gray area for me, and may be 'Upstate' too. Anything West of I-81 is Western New York.
An easy way to tell nothing in Western-NY used to be called "Western-NY" until recently - look where Upstate Farms is. Can't get much further west than that. But yes, we most certainly use the term Western-NY now.
Everything north of I-90.
North of I-84 and east of I-81.
Quote from: thenetwork on June 11, 2016, 12:19:58 PM
I always considered Upstate New York as everything north from Binghamton/I-88 east to Albany then north of I-90 from Albany to the MA line.
My impression was that "upstate" definition changes as you go north: someone in Manhattan may think Bronx is upstate, but as you go north that line moves north as well. I had an impression that even Albany area is not really upstate. Since I-90 cuts through Albany, using that as divider doesn't make much sense for the area.. Lately, I reluctantly accepted Albany area being upstate, though...
Okay, I realize my original question was hastily written and probably unclear (and when I have more time I'll edit it), but we're all really missing the point here.
The question I'm interested in is not just where you draw the boundary, but WHY you draw it there. In other words, when you see I-90 on a map, for example, or maybe NY 17, and decide that's the dividing line, why did you pick that location? What do you see differently about the socio-cultural aspects of the area to one side of the line as opposed to the other? What makes one side of the line seem like it's more closely connected to NYC (assuming that's a core aspect of what defines Downstate vs. Upstate) than the other?
The reason I'm asking this is because I'm curious whether there can be said to be a "definitive" idea of what Upstate is, because it's based on definable characteristics as opposed to just being a gut feeling. But in order to find out, we need to know what those characteristics are. I'm not saying anyone's definition is more "correct" than the others, I'm just trying to figure out what criteria people use to decide, and maybe help narrow down the essential meaning of the term.
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For clinching purposes, I'm using "north of NYC". Culturally, I'm thinking Regions 8, 10, and 11 plus Sullivan County and minus Columbia County as being downstate. That's the area that's largely people commuting to the city or fueled by people from the city heading north for a weekend. Originally I included Columbia County, but it seems to me that places like Kinderhook and Valatie are probably more commuter towns of the Capital District.
Western NY I see as being west of I-390. East of there is the Finger Lakes.
Quote from: empirestate on June 11, 2016, 06:10:45 PM
Okay, I realize my original question was hastily written and probably unclear (and when I have more time I'll edit it), but we're all really missing the point here.
[...]
The reason I'm asking this is because I'm curious whether there can be said to be a "definitive" idea of what Upstate is, because it's based on definable characteristics as opposed to just being a gut feeling. But in order to find out, we need to know what those characteristics are. I'm not saying anyone's definition is more "correct" than the others, I'm just trying to figure out what criteria people use to decide, and maybe help narrow down the essential meaning of the term.
Just my personal opinion - we're talking degree of urbanity. NYC is as urban as it gets; Adirondacks - which is "true upstate" for me - are quite rural. Albany-Kingston- Poughkeepsie are somewhere in between both geographically and culturally. I would say that spirit of extreme urbanity propagates from NYC, mostly along Thruway, and vanishes somewhere past Albany...
Quote from: kalvado on June 11, 2016, 10:07:34 PM
Just my personal opinion - we're talking degree of urbanity. NYC is as urban as it gets; Adirondacks - which is "true upstate" for me - are quite rural. Albany-Kingston- Poughkeepsie are somewhere in between both geographically and culturally. I would say that spirit of extreme urbanity propagates from NYC, mostly along Thruway, and vanishes somewhere past Albany...
Okay, so you would exclude Buffalo, Syracuse, Rochester et al. from the "Upstate" category...what about places like Ithaca, a small city but ultimately a rural outpost? Or the undeveloped areas between western cities, like Orleans or Wyoming counties?
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To me it's the accent of the natives. Any place near the City has the "New York accent" . Upstate the sound like the upper Midwest more so. I have met people from Ithaca, Buffalo and Rochester and it sounded similar to Michigan. So linguistic border.
Sort of like the North/South(Central) Jersey debate. It's variable depending on who you ask
Quote from: vdeane on June 11, 2016, 06:38:03 PM
Culturally, I'm thinking Regions 8, 10, and 11 plus Sullivan County and minus Columbia County as being downstate. That's the area that's largely people commuting to the city or fueled by people from the city heading north for a weekend.
Additionally, this definition is exactly coterminous with the areas in NY that Hagstrom made street atlases of. That definitely has some weight in my mind.
It's also georgaphically "neat" because if you were to extend the line that marks most of the PA/NY border eastward, the norther borders of Sullivan, Ulster, and Dutchess counties are the set of county lines that most closely follow this imaginary line. Furthermore, the northeastern corner of Dutchess county precisely lines up with the CT/MA line. It just looks right on a map for there to be some significance to this.
On the other hand, culturally, things don't really neatly follow county lines. If I drive up NY 17, I definitively feel I have left any semblance of the NYC metro area behind once I pass Liberty, which is still 15 or so miles before the Sullivan/Delaware line. Said line, when driving NY 17, feels like it is in a completely arbitrary place and isn't an obvious border of any sort.
And even then, one could argue for a tighter definition. People even in Orange County are generally nicer and more open and honest than one would typically expect of downstate folk, so it's definitely got some level of upstateness to it. Orange County also has Stewart's, a place one usually thinks of as an upstate institution.
Ultimately though, I would argue that "upstate" and "downstate" are directions, not places - and the reason why seemingly no one can agree on what fits the definition of each is simply because it depends on the speaker's frame of reference. If you think about it, this correlates well with common usage - as you head north, people's definition of downstate expands and people's definition of upstate shrinks. Because people are using these terms to describe things relative to their location, not relative to a consistent datum.
Quote from: empirestate on June 11, 2016, 06:10:45 PMThe question I'm interested in is not just where you draw the boundary, but WHY you draw it there. What do you see differently about the socio-cultural aspects of the area to one side of the line as opposed to the other? What makes one side of the line seem like it's more closely connected to NYC (assuming that's a core aspect of what defines Downstate vs. Upstate) than the other?
That's not really what Upstate is though - because where Upstate starts and the immediate surrounding area - it's still a part of NYC's economy as well its society seeing as most of the people that live there are still directly connected to NYC. It's called Upstate because you're basically in the suburbs of NYC, not in the city proper. And there's no real definitive "border" as to where Upstate starts anyways - it's like asking where the Pacific Ocean ends and where does the Southern Ocean start - if the fish could talk, they couldn't tell you either - and if they could, they'd surely disagree on it just like the people who live in the grey area of what's the Upstate/NYC border.
I'd think roughly the E-W border with Pennsylvania. Albany's definitely "upstate" but I think Poughkeepsie is questionable, and I don't consider Middletown or Port Jervis to be "upstate."
Quote from: empirestate on June 11, 2016, 10:55:24 PM
Quote from: kalvado on June 11, 2016, 10:07:34 PM
Just my personal opinion - we're talking degree of urbanity. NYC is as urban as it gets; Adirondacks - which is "true upstate" for me - are quite rural. Albany-Kingston- Poughkeepsie are somewhere in between both geographically and culturally. I would say that spirit of extreme urbanity propagates from NYC, mostly along Thruway, and vanishes somewhere past Albany...
Okay, so you would exclude Buffalo, Syracuse, Rochester et al. from the "Upstate" category...what about places like Ithaca, a small city but ultimately a rural outpost? Or the undeveloped areas between western cities, like Orleans or Wyoming counties?
Quote from: jwolfer on June 11, 2016, 11:09:00 PM
To me it's the accent of the natives. Any place near the City has the "New York accent" . Upstate the sound like the upper Midwest more so. I have met people from Ithaca, Buffalo and Rochester and it sounded similar to Michigan. So linguistic border.
Sort of like the North/South(Central) Jersey debate. It's variable depending on who you ask
Buffalo, and maybe Rochester, are on the other side of pop/soda line: http://popvssoda.com/ While somewhat anecdotal, that is likely a sign of being more midwest-ish.
Ithaca is more in a class of its own due to Cornell.
And a better question may be if Binghampton is upstate (for me it is in the same league as Albany - maybe upstate, but not
true upstate)
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on June 11, 2016, 01:57:02 PM
I call everthing west of Utica and Binghamton "Western New York"
And is that a subset of Upstate NY, or a separate region? Where does the dividing line extend north of Utica; is Watertown in Western NY?
Quote from: vdeane on June 11, 2016, 06:38:03 PMCulturally, I'm thinking Regions 8, 10, and 11 plus Sullivan County and minus Columbia County as being downstate. That's the area that's largely people commuting to the city or fueled by people from the city heading north for a weekend. Originally I included Columbia County, but it seems to me that places like Kinderhook and Valatie are probably more commuter towns of the Capital District.
And am I mistaken, or was Columbia county once part of Region 1 anyway?
I definitely see how Sullivan and Ulster could be considered Downstate, with the Catskill region being a nearby recreational destination for NYC, and therefore heavily influenced by it. Columbia County, on the other hand, I'd associate more with western Massachusetts, basically an extension of the Berkshires. Then again, the Berkshires are at least as much a getaway for NYC as they are for Boston, so...?
Quote from: jwolfer on June 11, 2016, 11:09:00 PM
To me it's the accent of the natives. Any place near the City has the "New York accent" . Upstate the sound like the upper Midwest more so. I have met people from Ithaca, Buffalo and Rochester and it sounded similar to Michigan. So linguistic border.
Where have you observed the border to be? And what do you consider a "native"–certainly, many people in the suburbs of NYC are recent transplants from the city itself and will have brought the accent with them. Those born and bred in Orange County, however, may not have the same native accent as those who moved there from farther south.
Quote from: Duke87 on June 12, 2016, 12:19:54 AM
On the other hand, culturally, things don't really neatly follow county lines. If I drive up NY 17, I definitively feel I have left any semblance of the NYC metro area behind once I pass Liberty, which is still 15 or so miles before the Sullivan/Delaware line.
I agree, generally, although there are spots in Delaware County that still give me hints of the downstate atmosphere. Really, it's when you start to see that certain type of pizza/deli/convenience store that isn't common Upstate–and I think those can be found even as far north as Binghamton.
QuoteAnd even then, one could argue for a tighter definition. People even in Orange County are generally nicer and more open and honest than one would typically expect of downstate folk, so it's definitely got some level of upstateness to it.
Yes, although they also have their fair share of d***heads, particularly in the congested area around Woodbury that feels more like suburban NYC than it does Upstate NY.
Quote from: 8.Lug on June 12, 2016, 02:24:18 AM
That's not really what Upstate is though - because where Upstate starts and the immediate surrounding area - it's still a part of NYC's economy as well its society seeing as most of the people that live there are still directly connected to NYC. It's called Upstate because you're basically in the suburbs of NYC, not in the city proper.
Interesting; I think you're the first person I've heard say the Upstate, by definition,
does connote a similarity with NYC; almost universally, it's thought of as something
as opposed to NYC–there's the city, and then there's Upstate.
So that means you'd probably consider that Upstate stops at around the point where most of us consider it starts; about where are you thinking?
QuoteAnd there's no real definitive "border" as to where Upstate starts anyways - it's like asking where the Pacific Ocean ends and where does the Southern Ocean start - if the fish could talk, they couldn't tell you either - and if they could, they'd surely disagree on it just like the people who live in the grey area of what's the Upstate/NYC border.
There's definitely no agreed upon border, you're right. That's actually pretty much why I brought it up; basically, I often find myself saying that I'm from "Upstate NY", even though I currently live where most people would consider to be Upstate but I don't. And I've found that I justify my assertion using certain specific criteria, such as I've mentioned before–in other words, I say that this area is not "Upstate NY', and here's why.
So my question in this thread is the same: in your view, tell us which areas are and are not "Upstate NY", and here's why.
You're also right that "upstate" is often a relative term, basically meaning north with respect to NYC, and I've already acknowledged that usage as uncontested (I don't think anyone considers Long Island to be Upstate–though maybe you do, given its great influence from NYC). But there's no doubt that you also hear it referred to as a specific region; as I illustrated above, people often say that they live or are going to "Upstate NY", in the same way they might say they're going to the Midwest, or to the coast. And if the person saying this is standing in Westchester County when he does, that would suggest that he doesn't consider Westchester to be part of "Upstate NY", or else he'd have said something different.
Quote from: hbelkins on June 12, 2016, 03:49:11 AM
I'd think roughly the E-W border with Pennsylvania. Albany's definitely "upstate" but I think Poughkeepsie is questionable, and I don't consider Middletown or Port Jervis to be "upstate."
I definitely don't consider any of the last three to be Upstate, because they're on commuter rail to NYC. In fact, I'd consider Poughkeepsie less questionable than the other two: it's more metropolitan in its feel–certainly more urban/suburban than my home of Putnam County–and is on the frequently-served Hudson Line rather than the much more provincial west-of-Hudson service that runs to Middletown and Port Jervis. Is it just its northern latitude that makes you unsure about Poughkeepsie?
Quote from: kalvado on June 12, 2016, 07:22:15 AM
Buffalo, and maybe Rochester, are on the other side of pop/soda line: http://popvssoda.com/ While somewhat anecdotal, that is likely a sign of being more midwest-ish.
Rochester is squarely on the "pop" side of the line; remember that the local supermarket chain calls its soft drinks WPop, not WSoda. ;-)
But both Rochester and Buffalo are about as urban as you'll find without being close to NYC; doesn't that mean they're not Upstate? They're certainly bigger towns than Albany, so if Albany's too urban to be Upstate, then Buffalo and Rochester certainly are.
QuoteIthaca is more in a class of its own due to Cornell.
It certainly is, but is it Upstate? Or does the university make it too urban to be considered such? Is it a region of its own?
Quote from: empirestate on June 12, 2016, 10:22:24 AM
Quote from: kalvado on June 12, 2016, 07:22:15 AM
Buffalo, and maybe Rochester, are on the other side of pop/soda line: http://popvssoda.com/ While somewhat anecdotal, that is likely a sign of being more midwest-ish.
Rochester is squarely on the "pop" side of the line; remember that the local supermarket chain calls its soft drinks WPop, not WSoda. ;-)
But both Rochester and Buffalo are about as urban as you'll find without being close to NYC; doesn't that mean they're not Upstate? They're certainly bigger towns than Albany, so if Albany's too urban to be Upstate, then Buffalo and Rochester certainly are.
QuoteIthaca is more in a class of its own due to Cornell.
It certainly is, but is it Upstate? Or does the university make it too urban to be considered such? Is it a region of its own?
Well.. Speaking for myself and trying to be as systematic as possible
Buffalo and Rochester - likely not upstate; more like western NY (which is somewhat separate)
Syracuse - less reluctantly than Albany, but probably in the same ballpark of "upstate, but not true upstate"
Utica-Rome - Upstate.
Adirondacks and around - True Upstate
Binghamton, Cortland and Elmira (just not to mess with Ithaca) - very reluctantly; upstate is really north of I-90 (which excludes anything west of Syracuse). But since those are far away from NYC, they have to qualify... somewhat... Same probably goes for places around I-88 and between 88 and 90;
Which leaves Catskills as being more downstate than upstate for me
Looks like I ended up with a greyscale map instead of black and white definition...
Quote from: empirestate on June 12, 2016, 10:22:24 AM
Quote from: 8.Lug on June 12, 2016, 02:24:18 AM
That's not really what Upstate is though - because where Upstate starts and the immediate surrounding area - it's still a part of NYC's economy as well its society seeing as most of the people that live there are still directly connected to NYC. It's called Upstate because you're basically in the suburbs of NYC, not in the city proper.
Interesting; I think you're the first person I've heard say the Upstate, by definition, does connote a similarity with NYC; almost universally, it's thought of as something as opposed to NYC–there's the city, and then there's Upstate.
So that means you'd probably consider that Upstate stops at around the point where most of us consider it starts; about where are you thinking?
I was referring to your point of where the societal border is - kind of like how Gary, Indiana is much more a suburb of Chicago than it is a city in Indiana - but it doesn't change the fact that Gary is still a city in Indiana.
But I also think I may have confused the situation a bit because I tend to forget that Yonkers and Westchester in general isn't technically NYC, even though it basically is, and I was treating it as such.
Oddly enough, the last time I looked at a pop/soda/etc. distribution map, it seemed to put the line on the Genesee River, cutting Rochester in half (which matched the usage in my family; my Dad's side from Irondequoit uses soda, and my Mom's side from Chili uses pop), but then, that map didn't do a county breakdown and show mixed areas like the linked one does.
To me, Western NY, the Finger Lakes, Southern Tier, Central NY, North Country, Adirondacks, and Capital District are subsets of Upstate just like the Hudson Valley, NYC, and Long Island are subsets of Downstate.
Western NY is culturally part of the midwest and, realistically, has more in common with Ohio than with Albany.
So no, I would not consider it part of Upstate NY.
Quote from: Duke87 on June 12, 2016, 09:14:56 PM
Western NY is culturally part of the midwest and, realistically, has more in common with Ohio than with Albany.
So no, I would not consider it part of Upstate NY.
Some of Upstate New York has a lot in common with New England, though.
Quote from: 1 on June 12, 2016, 09:16:15 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on June 12, 2016, 09:14:56 PM
Western NY is culturally part of the midwest and, realistically, has more in common with Ohio than with Albany.
So no, I would not consider it part of Upstate NY.
Some of Upstate New York has a lot in common with New England, though.
or with Quebec...
Quote from: kalvado on June 12, 2016, 11:49:37 AM
Well.. Speaking for myself and trying to be as systematic as possible
Buffalo and Rochester - likely not upstate; more like western NY (which is somewhat separate)
Syracuse - less reluctantly than Albany, but probably in the same ballpark of "upstate, but not true upstate"
Utica-Rome - Upstate.
Adirondacks and around - True Upstate
Binghamton, Cortland and Elmira (just not to mess with Ithaca) - very reluctantly; upstate is really north of I-90 (which excludes anything west of Syracuse). But since those are far away from NYC, they have to qualify... somewhat... Same probably goes for places around I-88 and between 88 and 90;
Which leaves Catskills as being more downstate than upstate for me
Looks like I ended up with a greyscale map instead of black and white definition...
Well, it's just there seems to be more to your criteria than merely the degree of urbanity, but since that's the primary factor you mentioned, I'm just curious what else you take into consideration; it almost seems like you place the epicenter of Upstate in the Adirondack Park, with "upstateness" decreasing the further you go from there–not only southward toward NYC, but westward as well. I'm still not sure if you're considering rural western areas like Warsaw or Geneseo as "upstate" or not.
Quote from: 8.Lug on June 12, 2016, 04:40:06 PM
Quote from: empirestate on June 12, 2016, 10:22:24 AM
Quote from: 8.Lug on June 12, 2016, 02:24:18 AM
That's not really what Upstate is though - because where Upstate starts and the immediate surrounding area - it's still a part of NYC's economy as well its society seeing as most of the people that live there are still directly connected to NYC. It's called Upstate because you're basically in the suburbs of NYC, not in the city proper.
Interesting; I think you're the first person I've heard say the Upstate, by definition, does connote a similarity with NYC; almost universally, it's thought of as something as opposed to NYC–there's the city, and then there's Upstate.
So that means you'd probably consider that Upstate stops at around the point where most of us consider it starts; about where are you thinking?
I was referring to your point of where the societal border is - kind of like how Gary, Indiana is much more a suburb of Chicago than it is a city in Indiana - but it doesn't change the fact that Gary is still a city in Indiana.
But I also think I may have confused the situation a bit because I tend to forget that Yonkers and Westchester in general isn't technically NYC, even though it basically is, and I was treating it as such.
I do have to admit you've got me confused as well. My comment had been that the absence of influence from NYC was a defining characteristic of "Upstate", which I assumed was universally accepted to at least some extent. But you said, I thought, that that's
not what Upstate is, but rather that it is "still a part of NYC's economy" and "basically in the suburbs of NYC". So Buffalo, Syracuse, Albany, etc. are all not Upstate by that definition, because they're decidedly not in the NYC suburbs, nor particularly influenced by it culturally.
Quote from: Duke87 on June 12, 2016, 09:14:56 PM
Western NY is culturally part of the midwest and, realistically, has more in common with Ohio than with Albany.
So no, I would not consider it part of Upstate NY.
Aha, so Upstate means having less in common not only with NYC, but with the Midwest as well. I would have thought Midwesternness was very much a characteristic of Upstate NY, though not a defining one (because as others have said, much of the state takes on the character of its neighboring regions).
I must say I'm quite surprised by not only the wide variety of ideas being shared about what Upstate is, but also by the fact that they're totally unique to this forum. During any of the casual conversations I've had that prompted my interest in asking this question, I've never had anyone say that where I'm from originally (Rochester) isn't Upstate; if anything, the response is something like "Oh yeah, that's
really Upstate!" (as compared to borderline areas closer to NYC). The only source of disagreement has been just how far from NYC the line of demarcation is, so I was looking for a way to delineate that border more empirically by thinking of definite criteria like the limits of commuter rail service or changes in tax structure.
But if we can't even find a consensus on what the concept of Upstate even is, it's going to be pretty tough to determine the limits of how far that concept can be applied! :spin:
Quote from: empirestate on June 13, 2016, 12:50:42 AM
Well, it's just there seems to be more to your criteria than merely the degree of urbanity, but since that's the primary factor you mentioned, I'm just curious what else you take into consideration; it almost seems like you place the epicenter of Upstate in the Adirondack Park, with "upstateness" decreasing the further you go from there–not only southward toward NYC, but westward as well. I'm still not sure if you're considering rural western areas like Warsaw or Geneseo as "upstate" or not.
Sort of correct - as I said, True Upstate for me means Adirondacks (as a region, not only park)
and I would say after all these questions, that I see 3 principal centers: NYC, as source of urbanity and downstateness - powerful, but shorter range; something like Lake Placid as source of upstateness, and Buffalo (or something along I-90 outside NYS) as source of midwestness, mixing and painting the map. Bigger cities somewhat repel upstateness.
In that case, finger lakes region ends up weakly painted in 2 colors. On the other hand, I am only that familiar with those areas...
I would say that the definition would be which areas are within NYC's media market. If you are in an area that can reach broadcast TV stations from NYC, you are in suburban NYC, if you reach broadcast TV from another city, you are in Upstate.
From what I gather, the following NY counties are within the NYC media market: NYC, Long Island, Westchester, Rockland, Putnam, Orange, Dutchess, Ulster, Sullivan. Anything beyond that is Upstate.
Metropolitan NYC (in New York State) includes everything within a reasonable drive of a train line to the city. So if it is reasonably near a Metro-North station (since both Long Island counties have LIRR service), then it is not Upstate New York.
Replying to empirestate's old post about how my idea of upstate changed from I-84 to Westchester/Rockland
The meat of Westchester and Rockland counties are miles below I-84 and there's even and almost 10-mile gap between their northern boundaries and I-84, except around Brewster.
Quote from: Rothman on June 16, 2016, 01:36:55 PM
Replying to empirestate's old post about how my idea of upstate changed from I-84 to Westchester/Rockland
The meat of Westchester and Rockland counties are miles below I-84 and there's even and almost 10-mile gap between their northern boundaries and I-84, except around Brewster.
My question was actually
where you currently draw the boundary. You said that you considered Westchester/Rockland to be downstate "now" (as in, now that you've changed your mind)–but of course, they would be downstate before you changed your mind as well, with the boundary at I-84.
I think now you mean that you changed your idea of the boundary to be
that of Westchester and Rockland Counties, meaning you've deleted Dutchess, Putnam and Orange Counties from your idea of Upstate, is that right?
And then of course, part 2 of the question still remains: why there? What is it specifically about Putnam County that makes it Upstate while Westchester isn't? For example, I live in Putnam County and I commute into Manhattan regularly on Metro North. I happen to use a station in Westchester County, but there are several in Putnam County as well (and beyond). I also pay the extra costs associated with the Metropolitan Commuter district, and my school and property taxes are way above the amount you'd typically associate with a non-NYC influenced area.
Now on the other hand, my town has almost no commercial property; much of it is residential (and most of that is of a rural character) and a lot more of it is conserved open space. Also, the homes in my neighborhood all have wells and septic systems, but just down the hill in Cortlandt they have sewers and town water. So those could be reasons to draw the line at the county boundary, but so far nobody has given these as reasons for doing so. Furthermore, that's not always an accurate line to draw anyhow: as you go east toward Mahopac and Carmel, the distinctions I've described become much less evident at the county line.
I think perhaps I made a mistake in asking a two-part question. I realize now that what I'm really interested in is the second part, so if I were to start from scratch and ask the question over again, it would be:
Draw a line on a map between "Upstate NY" and the rest of the state.
Do not tell us where you've drawn the line, but describe exactly how you decided where to put the line.
Quote from: empirestate on June 11, 2016, 08:50:29 AM
Interesting, so you would have considered that signage to be wrong, since a part of your "Upstate" would lie in the direction of the left arrow as well (the part between the Bronx line and NY 119)? Or would you take "upstate" in this case to be the relative sense, essentially synonymous with "north"?
Closer to the latter. It was more of an issue of the rest of the thruway leading
further upstate. This was the first hint that "Upstate" New York was more of a matter of perspective. All I needed was to get used to the idea of people who were already
from Upstate New York talking about other people and things in Upstate New York.
Roughly, it's I-84. On both sides of the Hudson, that is where there is a noticeable cultural change. Ulster County is definitely Upstate, as is extreme northwestern Orange County. I had family in Ulster and the people there were culturally Upstate.
As far as using R8 as Downstate, Columbia and Ulster are Upstate. I'd say Dutchess is half-and-half, with Poughkeepsie being the line on that side of the Hudson. Metro-North going up to Poughkeepsie pushes the boundary further north, as people up there can easily commute into Manhattan.
As far as broadcast TV, most of Ulster County can't get a TV signal from NYC (but can from Albany), even though they are in the NYC media market. I can tell you that people there pay more attention to Albany news and weather, as it is typically much more relevant. To give people an idea, Kingston is about as far from Manhattan as Springfield, MA is from Boston.
TL;DR: If you can easily commute to Manhattan, you're in a bedroom community and thus Downstate, as attention is directed toward Manhattan.
I'm pretty sure there are people commuting to Manhattan north of I-84. Poughkeepsie and the northern parts of Fishkill come to mind.
Quote from: vdeane on June 19, 2016, 04:57:53 PM
I'm pretty sure there are people commuting to Manhattan north of I-84. Poughkeepsie and the northern parts of Fishkill come to mind.
There are, which is why cl94 and I both agree that the boundary reaches north to include Poughkeepsie. Indeed, as I mentioned before, the more urban portions of Dutchess County are really less Upstate-like than most or all of Putnam County.
Quote from: empirestate on June 19, 2016, 08:30:01 PM
Quote from: vdeane on June 19, 2016, 04:57:53 PM
I'm pretty sure there are people commuting to Manhattan north of I-84. Poughkeepsie and the northern parts of Fishkill come to mind.
There are, which is why cl94 and I both agree that the boundary reaches north to include Poughkeepsie. Indeed, as I mentioned before, the more urban portions of Dutchess County are really less Upstate-like than most or all of Putnam County.
Precisely, hence why I said "roughly". By "both sides of the Hudson", I meant that, south of that line, both sides are generally considered Downstate. In reality, the line is staggered, being 15-25 miles further north on the east side because of the presence of commuter rail. Putnam is an oddity that is only really Downstate because it's between Poughkeepsie and Westchester- it has Upstate characteristics but lies between areas considered "Downstate".
If you really want to be strict about it, you could say that only Rockland and Westchester are Downstate, but that would put southern Dutchess Upstate, which might not be accurate either. Heck, you can't even say the "Hudson Valley" is Downstate because it culturally (and physically) contains the entire Dutch colony, which goes through Saratoga County.
What I do think most of us agree on is that the line is somewhere between Albany and the northern boundaries of Westchester and Rockland. Albany is definitely Upstate (unless you talk to someone from Buffalo, but some of them think anywhere east of I-81 is "downstate") and Westchester/Rockland are definitely Downstate.
People in the Catskills say the are from Upstate New York. The term "Upstate" is to differentiate it from the city. I am from the Pacific Northwest and when I travel to Upstate New York (like I will be doing this week), I have to say Upstate New York or people assume the city.
My definition of the boundary is Ramapo Mountain on the west side of the Hudson. East of the river is a little more difficult, but the Appalachian Trail is a good enough rough sketch delineating where the metro core peters out.
People from in and near the city will tend to describe the line as being further to the south while people from Upstate tend to describe the line further to the north.
Western NY is a subsection of Upstate New York.
I still consider everything north of The Bronx to be upstate, including Yonkers and Mount Vernon, and places like Western New York, the Adirondacks, the Catskills, the Berkshires, the Finger Lakes, the Capital District, and what not are subsets, but I'm not oblivious to the fact that others would disagree. Back in November 2014, when I took extra pictures of the Eastchester-Dyre Avenue subway station, I caught a Bx16 bus and took it to Woodlawn Metro-North station. On the way there, I saw changes in some of the street name signs, and I realized we were on the Bronx-Mount Vernon line. I asked the driver if we were upstate and he said no.
The street name signs didn't convince me, but I didn't bother pressing the issue.
I say it's everything north of Albany. Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse et cetera are all Western New York.
Quote from: epzik8 on August 19, 2016, 12:10:20 PM
I say it's everything north of Albany.
O.o
If I were to agree with you, we'd both be wrong.
Quote from: D-Dey65 on August 19, 2016, 11:05:39 AM
I still consider everything north of The Bronx to be upstate, including Yonkers and Mount Vernon [...]
And what made you decide to draw the line there? What are the characteristics of "Upstate" that you find to exist in Yonkers and Mt. Vernon, but not in the Bronx?
Quote from: empirestate on August 21, 2016, 03:14:52 PM
And what made you decide to draw the line there? What are the characteristics of "Upstate" that you find to exist in Yonkers and Mt. Vernon, but not in the Bronx?
Just not part of New York City or Long Island. Honestly, can you drive along Sprain Brook Parkway (especially around the Grassy Sprain Reservoir) and still think you're in NYC?
Quote from: D-Dey65 on August 22, 2016, 04:06:40 PM
Quote from: empirestate on August 21, 2016, 03:14:52 PM
And what made you decide to draw the line there? What are the characteristics of "Upstate" that you find to exist in Yonkers and Mt. Vernon, but not in the Bronx?
Just not part of New York City or Long Island. Honestly, can you drive along Sprain Brook Parkway (especially around the Grassy Sprain Reservoir) and still think you're in NYC?
Mm, possibly. It could definitely seem like parts of Staten Island or outer Queens. But the spirit of the question is, what does "not part of New York City" mean to you? What is it about the landscape, culture, politics, infrastructure, or any number of other factors that you consider "not part of New York City" (and thus, by extension, Upstate)?
If, in fact, you really just count anything other than the seven counties of NYC and Long Island to be Upstate, that's fine, although probably outside the scope of the question. But you mentioned something about the surroundings along the Grassy Sprain, so it seems like there's a bit more to your definition.
Quote from: empirestate on August 22, 2016, 05:42:42 PM
Quote from: D-Dey65 on August 22, 2016, 04:06:40 PM
Quote from: empirestate on August 21, 2016, 03:14:52 PM
And what made you decide to draw the line there? What are the characteristics of "Upstate" that you find to exist in Yonkers and Mt. Vernon, but not in the Bronx?
Just not part of New York City or Long Island. Honestly, can you drive along Sprain Brook Parkway (especially around the Grassy Sprain Reservoir) and still think you're in NYC?
Mm, possibly. It could definitely seem like parts of Staten Island or outer Queens. But the spirit of the question is, what does "not part of New York City" mean to you? What is it about the landscape, culture, politics, infrastructure, or any number of other factors that you consider "not part of New York City" (and thus, by extension, Upstate)?
If, in fact, you really just count anything other than the seven counties of NYC and Long Island to be Upstate, that's fine, although probably outside the scope of the question. But you mentioned something about the surroundings along the Grassy Sprain, so it seems like there's a bit more to your definition.
Downstate isn't just New York City. By the definition of "not like New York City", anything east of NY 112 would be upstate as well. I can accept the "anything north of the Bronx" (even though anyone outside of New York City will disagree with you).
Quote from: cl94 on August 22, 2016, 08:15:24 PM
Downstate isn't just New York City. By the definition of "not like New York City", anything east of NY 112 would be upstate as well. I can accept the "anything north of the Bronx" (even though anyone outside of New York City will disagree with you).
I could accept that definition if I could get a straight answer on how it's decided upon. To re-iterate my example earlier with Street View (this link (https://goo.gl/maps/32U7oCD8Pc82)), why is one half of the picture defined as "Upstate" and the other half not?
That's an extreme example, as the boundary line crosses aribtrarily through the neighborhood, dividing blocks and buildings between Yonkers and the Bronx–between Upstate and not-Upstate–but you'll see similar resemblances between many areas of Yonkers, Mt. Vernon and other close-in areas on one hand, and contiguous areas of the Bronx on the other. (You see the same resemblance along the Queens-Nassau County border, too.)
Quote from: empirestate on August 23, 2016, 11:31:51 AM
Quote from: cl94 on August 22, 2016, 08:15:24 PM
Downstate isn't just New York City. By the definition of "not like New York City", anything east of NY 112 would be upstate as well. I can accept the "anything north of the Bronx" (even though anyone outside of New York City will disagree with you).
I could accept that definition if I could get a straight answer on how it's decided upon. To re-iterate my example earlier with Street View (this link (https://goo.gl/maps/32U7oCD8Pc82)), why is one half of the picture defined as "Upstate" and the other half not?
That's an extreme example, as the boundary line crosses aribtrarily through the neighborhood, dividing blocks and buildings between Yonkers and the Bronx–between Upstate and not-Upstate–but you'll see similar resemblances between many areas of Yonkers, Mt. Vernon and other close-in areas on one hand, and contiguous areas of the Bronx on the other. (You see the same resemblance along the Queens-Nassau County border, too.)
Oh, I'm well aware of that, but there are some in the City who think Upstate does start at that arbitrary point. Such as whoever advised a former Senator to say she was moving "Upstate" after buying a house in Chappaqua (political figure only inserted to illustrate how some define "Upstate" as including Westchester).
Honestly this question comes down to perspective. Long Islanders will think of Upstate NY boundaries further south because they spend so much time in NYC and on Long Island. It's much easier to call places like Oneonta, and even places like New Rochelle as upstate for them.
Quote from: CobaltYoshi27 on August 24, 2016, 10:49:29 PM
Honestly this question comes down to perspective. Long Islanders will think of Upstate NY boundaries further south because they spend so much time in NYC and on Long Island. It's much easier to call places like Oneonta, and even places like New Rochelle as upstate for them.
Oneonta is Upstate and there is no question about that. Only people who don't think it is live in Buffalo or along the Quebec border, but Buffalo also thinks anything
east of I-81 is downstate.
Are there any defining qualities that define Upstate other than "Not New York City or Long Island (and possibly its surrounding counties)?" Buffalo and Plattsburgh are both "upstate" but share almost nothing in common. Buffalo is pretty similar to Pittsburgh, Cleveland and Detroit whereas Plattsburgh is similar to Vermont.
I consider Upstate to be an all-encompassing region with subregions (Western New York, the North Country, the Finger Lakes region) within it.
Quote from: cl94 on August 22, 2016, 08:15:24 PM
Downstate isn't just New York City. By the definition of "not like New York City", anything east of NY 112 would be upstate as well. I can accept the "anything north of the Bronx" (even though anyone outside of New York City will disagree with you).
Ahh, now we're getting into the issue of the definition of Eastern Long Island. I've seen maps and websites that consider "Eastern" Long Island to be as far west as the Town of Oyster Bay of all places.
Now with that particular map, the only real difference I can see is in the street name signs. But since it's in Yonkers, it's still Upstate to me.
Quote from: The Nature Boy on August 25, 2016, 10:20:15 AM
Are there any defining qualities that define Upstate other than "Not New York City or Long Island (and possibly its surrounding counties)?" Buffalo and Plattsburgh are both "upstate" but share almost nothing in common. Buffalo is pretty similar to Pittsburgh, Cleveland and Detroit whereas Plattsburgh is similar to Vermont.
I consider Upstate to be an all-encompassing region with subregions (Western New York, the North Country, the Finger Lakes region) within it.
Basically, the defining quality is being a commuter town for New York City. The most commonly-accepted definition is that New York City, Long Island and the City's commuter towns within New York are "Downstate". Ulster, Sullivan and Columbia are almost always Upstate in their entirety, while Westchester and Rockland are Downstate. Orange, Putnam and Dutchess differ depending on who you talk to. Given the large commuter population living in the latter two, I consider those south of Poughkeepsie to be Downstate, while most of Orange south of I-84 is the same way. You'd be hard-pressed to call extreme northwestern Orange or northern Dutchess "Downstate".
As Upstate is so diverse, most of us here refer to the subregions. Western New York is everything west of either Geneva or Rochester (depending on who you talk to) and people in Buffalo hate hearing they live anywhere but "Western New York". "Central New York" is the area between NY 28 and the Finger Lakes. The "North Country" is typically considered to be everything north of the Essex-Warren county line. Do note that the "official regions" are not what is used in everyday speech and the border counties are often considered to overlap. The "Adirondacks" and "Catskills" are not official regions, but they are used colloquially to refer to those parts of the state.
Quote from: The Nature Boy on August 25, 2016, 10:20:15 AM
Are there any defining qualities that define Upstate other than "Not New York City or Long Island (and possibly its surrounding counties)?"
That's precisely the question that this thread is entirely about. :-) But I've been having trouble coaxing that information out; many people are only mentioning
where they draw the line, but not
why they draw it there.
Quote from: empirestate on August 25, 2016, 11:35:05 PM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on August 25, 2016, 10:20:15 AM
Are there any defining qualities that define Upstate other than "Not New York City or Long Island (and possibly its surrounding counties)?"
That's precisely the question that this thread is entirely about. :-) But I've been having trouble coaxing that information out; many people are only mentioning where they draw the line, but not why they draw it there.
I almost feel like Upstate New York originated as a way for NYC people to refer to the areas of the state not within their sphere.
I saw the news yesterday about Mariah Carey's sister being busted for prostitution in Saugerties, which was referred to as "upstate" in multiple stories. I guess that makes sense, since it's north of Kingston and is closer to Albany than it is the Tappan Zee.
Me, I usually use a "everything north of the Catskills" definition for Upstate. If you follow the line of thought from Colin Woodard's book American Nations, Upstate is those areas that were colonized by Yankeedom and is thus essentially Greater New England (this is also claimed for much of Suffolk County, which is not Upstate), sharing cultural similarities and political and social attitudes with New England, portions of the Midwest, and across the international border into Atlantic Canada. (Compare that with Downstate, where except for Suffolk County much of it belongs to what Colin Woodard calls "New Netherland", with its own separate cultural traditions and attitudes.) Within that definition, I'd define at least three basic regions - Eastern New York, consisting of the upper Hudson Valley, plus most of the North Country and the Albany area, and which retain ties with New England (Plattsburgh, especially, shares the same media market as Vermont); Western New York, which I'd define as the Finger Lakes region and points west and which share more in common with the Golden Horseshoe (which sounds better than the GTA in my opinion) and Southern Ontario in general; and Central New York, which has the Thousand Islands region in the north, including Fort Drum, and the Southern Tier in the south (and, by extension, the Northern Tier in Pennsylvania) as border areas and thus has the I-81 corridor within the region. Basic, yes, but it works for me.
Quote from: dcbjms on August 31, 2016, 11:09:49 PM
Me, I usually use a "everything north of the Catskills" definition for Upstate. If you follow the line of thought from Colin Woodard's book American Nations, Upstate is those areas that were colonized by Yankeedom and is thus essentially Greater New England (this is also claimed for much of Suffolk County, which is not Upstate), sharing cultural similarities and political and social attitudes with New England, portions of the Midwest, and across the international border into Atlantic Canada. (Compare that with Downstate, where except for Suffolk County much of it belongs to what Colin Woodard calls "New Netherland", with its own separate cultural traditions and attitudes.) Within that definition, I'd define at least three basic regions - Eastern New York, consisting of the upper Hudson Valley, plus most of the North Country and the Albany area, and which retain ties with New England (Plattsburgh, especially, shares the same media market as Vermont); Western New York, which I'd define as the Finger Lakes region and points west and which share more in common with the Golden Horseshoe (which sounds better than the GTA in my opinion) and Southern Ontario in general; and Central New York, which has the Thousand Islands region in the north, including Fort Drum, and the Southern Tier in the south (and, by extension, the Northern Tier in Pennsylvania) as border areas and thus has the I-81 corridor within the region. Basic, yes, but it works for me.
Suffolk County is interesting. I went on a date with a girl from the area who insisted that Suffolk County had more in common with coastal Connecticut and Rhode Island than it did the rest of New York. She was from eastern Suffolk County so maybe what she said had some validity, I've never been so I can't adequately judge.
Quote from: The Nature Boy on September 01, 2016, 03:33:39 PM
Quote from: dcbjms on August 31, 2016, 11:09:49 PM
Me, I usually use a "everything north of the Catskills" definition for Upstate. If you follow the line of thought from Colin Woodard's book American Nations, Upstate is those areas that were colonized by Yankeedom and is thus essentially Greater New England (this is also claimed for much of Suffolk County, which is not Upstate), sharing cultural similarities and political and social attitudes with New England, portions of the Midwest, and across the international border into Atlantic Canada. (Compare that with Downstate, where except for Suffolk County much of it belongs to what Colin Woodard calls "New Netherland", with its own separate cultural traditions and attitudes.) Within that definition, I'd define at least three basic regions - Eastern New York, consisting of the upper Hudson Valley, plus most of the North Country and the Albany area, and which retain ties with New England (Plattsburgh, especially, shares the same media market as Vermont); Western New York, which I'd define as the Finger Lakes region and points west and which share more in common with the Golden Horseshoe (which sounds better than the GTA in my opinion) and Southern Ontario in general; and Central New York, which has the Thousand Islands region in the north, including Fort Drum, and the Southern Tier in the south (and, by extension, the Northern Tier in Pennsylvania) as border areas and thus has the I-81 corridor within the region. Basic, yes, but it works for me.
Suffolk County is interesting. I went on a date with a girl from the area who insisted that Suffolk County had more in common with coastal Connecticut and Rhode Island than it did the rest of New York. She was from eastern Suffolk County so maybe what she said had some validity, I've never been so I can't adequately judge.
Hm. Newport = Hamptons?
Quote from: Rothman on September 01, 2016, 05:53:03 PM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on September 01, 2016, 03:33:39 PM
Quote from: dcbjms on August 31, 2016, 11:09:49 PM
Me, I usually use a "everything north of the Catskills" definition for Upstate. If you follow the line of thought from Colin Woodard's book American Nations, Upstate is those areas that were colonized by Yankeedom and is thus essentially Greater New England (this is also claimed for much of Suffolk County, which is not Upstate), sharing cultural similarities and political and social attitudes with New England, portions of the Midwest, and across the international border into Atlantic Canada. (Compare that with Downstate, where except for Suffolk County much of it belongs to what Colin Woodard calls "New Netherland", with its own separate cultural traditions and attitudes.) Within that definition, I'd define at least three basic regions - Eastern New York, consisting of the upper Hudson Valley, plus most of the North Country and the Albany area, and which retain ties with New England (Plattsburgh, especially, shares the same media market as Vermont); Western New York, which I'd define as the Finger Lakes region and points west and which share more in common with the Golden Horseshoe (which sounds better than the GTA in my opinion) and Southern Ontario in general; and Central New York, which has the Thousand Islands region in the north, including Fort Drum, and the Southern Tier in the south (and, by extension, the Northern Tier in Pennsylvania) as border areas and thus has the I-81 corridor within the region. Basic, yes, but it works for me.
Suffolk County is interesting. I went on a date with a girl from the area who insisted that Suffolk County had more in common with coastal Connecticut and Rhode Island than it did the rest of New York. She was from eastern Suffolk County so maybe what she said had some validity, I've never been so I can't adequately judge.
Hm. Newport = Hamptons?
I'd agree, actually. Quite a few Red Sox fans on the east end and Montauk is closer to Boston as the crow flies than it is to Manhattan, believe it or not. East of Brookhaven town, there is a huge culture shift.
Warren/Washington Counties north is culturally part of Vermont, as mentioned above. This comes from someone who grew up in Queensbury. Generally speaking, everything east of Utica is very similar culturally to New England, while everything west of Rochester is the Midwest. South of the Finger Lakes and west of Binghamton is effectively an extension of Pennsylvania. Honestly, the only portion of the state with a unique identity is Central New York, probably because it is landlocked without major ties to other states. Think about it- the Albany area is tied to Vermont and Massachusetts and Downstate is tied to Connecticut and New Jersey.
Time to get back on topic...
Here's a better line about how I'd put it. I'd put it north of Binghamton. My reason is that this is roughly where New York's sprawl ends, north of Poughkeepsie, and there's not much Metro-North service. I've also noticed a large dropoff in development past the line, and you don't really see a big city up until Albany.
Anything above and to the west of Sullivan, Ulster, and Dutchess Counties I consider Upstate.
Quote from: dcbjms on August 31, 2016, 11:09:49 PM
Me, I usually use a "everything north of the Catskills" definition for Upstate. If you follow the line of thought from Colin Woodard's book American Nations, Upstate is those areas that were colonized by Yankeedom and is thus essentially Greater New England (this is also claimed for much of Suffolk County, which is not Upstate), sharing cultural similarities and political and social attitudes with New England, portions of the Midwest, and across the international border into Atlantic Canada. (Compare that with Downstate, where except for Suffolk County much of it belongs to what Colin Woodard calls "New Netherland", with its own separate cultural traditions and attitudes.
Interesting; this is the first I've heard of early settlement patterns being a defining factor, and it sounds like a very useful one. How would you characterize those of "New Netherland", as distincit from "new New England"? (And yes, eastern Long Island is very decidedly part of New England, in spirit if not in fact.)
Quote from: noelbotevera on September 01, 2016, 10:42:28 PM
Here's a better line about how I'd put it. I'd put it north of Binghamton. My reason is that this is roughly where New York's sprawl ends, north of Poughkeepsie, and there's not much Metro-North service. I've also noticed a large dropoff in development past the line, and you don't really see a big city up until Albany.
You see the end of NYC sprawl well before you get as far north as Binghamton; there are rural areas through much of Orange, Sullivan and Ulster Counties, and of course all of Delaware County is sprawl-free.
Quote from: amroad17 on September 02, 2016, 04:45:25 AM
Anything above and to the west of Sullivan, Ulster, and Dutchess Counties I consider Upstate.
OK, but again (and again, and again, and again),
why? What's different about Sullivan and Ulster Counties than, say, Delaware County, that's noticeable right at the county line? You're pretty much in the middle of the Catskill Park there; what tangible difference do you see in one half of the park that you don't see in the other?
Remember, folks, it really helps the question not to think first about what specific places define your border–in fact, it may be best not to use any named places (counties, municipalities, etc.) in your answer at all. The idea is that you decide that on one side of the line, things look like ABC, and on the other they're more like XYZ. Based on that description, we should actually be able to draw the line on the map for you–and the whole idea is to see whether the line actually falls where you thought it would. Is there a quantifiable way to say "yes, that location is Upstate" and "no, that location isn't," if any such thing is possible. If your definition is based only on the names of locations, the question is already answered and thus the topic doesn't arise in the first place.
I wouldn't think of it in terms of one half of the park being different than the other but in the park being a buffer between greater NYC development and everything else.
Sullivan is definitely downstate. Just look at Schumer's push to widen NY 17 from I-87 all the way to the casino (which would probably get much of the Quickway upgraded to I-86 in the process)! IMO an area isn't truly rural if the freeway is six lanes wide, which would point to the area being a suburb/exurb of NYC.
There isn't as convenient a divide east of the Hudson, but Poughkeepsie is definitely downstate since so many people there commute to NYC. We do have Metro-North giving us a decent approximation, though.
Quote from: vdeane on September 02, 2016, 09:18:26 PM
I wouldn't think of it in terms of one half of the park being different than the other but in the park being a buffer between greater NYC development and everything else.
Sullivan is definitely downstate. Just look at Schumer's push to widen NY 17 from I-87 all the way to the casino (which would probably get much of the Quickway upgraded to I-86 in the process)! IMO an area isn't truly rural if the freeway is six lanes wide, which would point to the area being a suburb/exurb of NYC.
There isn't as convenient a divide east of the Hudson, but Poughkeepsie is definitely downstate since so many people there commute to NYC. We do have Metro-North giving us a decent approximation, though.
The Thruway needs to be 6 lanes south of Albany. Doesn't mean Albany is Downstate. There's a whole lot of nothing between Middletown and Monticello and 6 lanes on NY 17 is only needed for trucks. Volumes drop very sharply west of Middletown (60K to 31K from I-84 to Exit 119)
If you say nothing with 6 lanes is rural, I-71 in Ohio and widened sections of the Pennsylvania Turnpike would like to have a word with you.
Quote from: empirestate on September 02, 2016, 11:59:18 AM
Quote from: noelbotevera on September 01, 2016, 10:42:28 PM
Here's a better line about how I'd put it. I'd put it north of Binghamton. My reason is that this is roughly where New York's sprawl ends, north of Poughkeepsie, and there's not much Metro-North service. I've also noticed a large dropoff in development past the line, and you don't really see a big city up until Albany.
You see the end of NYC sprawl well before you get as far north as Binghamton; there are rural areas through much of Orange, Sullivan and Ulster Counties, and of course all of Delaware County is sprawl-free.
Ah, I misjudged how I placed my dividing line. But I'd say that I'd still place the line to be north of Poughkeepsie, excluding Delaware County. My reasoning is that several medium sized towns (Kingston, Poughkeepsie, Beacon/Newburgh, etc.) actually make up a fair amount of population. Despite decreasing populations in these areas, the area still has a population of about 670,000, and is considering to still be part of the NYC metro, despite being a good 2 hours from New York City. The area is actually slowing growing because of how rural it is and having Metro-North service.
So despite most of the area being rural, there's still a sizeable population here. As long as you're near the Hudson River, I've noticed, most of the sprawl is slowly moving north.
Side note: It's actually really close to Albany. It's a good hour from Kingston to Albany.
Quote from: noelbotevera on September 02, 2016, 10:14:42 PM
Quote from: empirestate on September 02, 2016, 11:59:18 AM
Quote from: noelbotevera on September 01, 2016, 10:42:28 PM
Here's a better line about how I'd put it. I'd put it north of Binghamton. My reason is that this is roughly where New York's sprawl ends, north of Poughkeepsie, and there's not much Metro-North service. I've also noticed a large dropoff in development past the line, and you don't really see a big city up until Albany.
You see the end of NYC sprawl well before you get as far north as Binghamton; there are rural areas through much of Orange, Sullivan and Ulster Counties, and of course all of Delaware County is sprawl-free.
Ah, I misjudged how I placed my dividing line. But I'd say that I'd still place the line to be north of Poughkeepsie, excluding Delaware County. My reasoning is that several medium sized towns (Kingston, Poughkeepsie, Beacon/Newburgh, etc.) actually make up a fair amount of population. Despite decreasing populations in these areas, the area still has a population of about 670,000, and is considering to still be part of the NYC metro, despite being a good 2 hours from New York City. The area is actually slowing growing because of how rural it is and having Metro-North service.
So despite most of the area being rural, there's still a sizeable population here. As long as you're near the Hudson River, I've noticed, most of the sprawl is slowly moving north.
Side note: It's actually really close to Albany. It's a good hour from Kingston to Albany.
I would put Newburgh and Poughkeepsie in a gray area. It has a feel that is distinct from Westchester and even Rockland Counties. Sure, it's still within the New York sphere but it's far enough removed that it begins to feel outside of it. I would put that area in Upstate New York. As you note, it's relatively close to Albany and Albany is undeniably Upstate.
Quote from: cl94 on September 02, 2016, 09:58:01 PM
Quote from: vdeane on September 02, 2016, 09:18:26 PM
I wouldn't think of it in terms of one half of the park being different than the other but in the park being a buffer between greater NYC development and everything else.
Sullivan is definitely downstate. Just look at Schumer's push to widen NY 17 from I-87 all the way to the casino (which would probably get much of the Quickway upgraded to I-86 in the process)! IMO an area isn't truly rural if the freeway is six lanes wide, which would point to the area being a suburb/exurb of NYC.
There isn't as convenient a divide east of the Hudson, but Poughkeepsie is definitely downstate since so many people there commute to NYC. We do have Metro-North giving us a decent approximation, though.
The Thruway needs to be 6 lanes south of Albany. Doesn't mean Albany is Downstate. There's a whole lot of nothing between Middletown and Monticello and 6 lanes on NY 17 is only needed for trucks. Volumes drop very sharply west of Middletown (60K to 31K from I-84 to Exit 119)
If you say nothing with 6 lanes is rural, I-71 in Ohio and widened sections of the Pennsylvania Turnpike would like to have a word with you.
I'm most familiar with NY, which doesn't tend to build anything more than four lanes in rural areas. Honestly, seeing I-95 in Maryland with six lanes despite being in a rural area felt REALLY weird.
Quote from: empirestate on September 02, 2016, 11:59:18 AM
Quote from: dcbjms on August 31, 2016, 11:09:49 PM
Me, I usually use a "everything north of the Catskills" definition for Upstate. If you follow the line of thought from Colin Woodard's book American Nations, Upstate is those areas that were colonized by Yankeedom and is thus essentially Greater New England (this is also claimed for much of Suffolk County, which is not Upstate), sharing cultural similarities and political and social attitudes with New England, portions of the Midwest, and across the international border into Atlantic Canada. (Compare that with Downstate, where except for Suffolk County much of it belongs to what Colin Woodard calls "New Netherland", with its own separate cultural traditions and attitudes.
Interesting; this is the first I've heard of early settlement patterns being a defining factor, and it sounds like a very useful one. How would you characterize those of "New Netherland", as distincit from "new New England"? (And yes, eastern Long Island is very decidedly part of New England, in spirit if not in fact.)
Thanks. :nod: Colin Woodard's book is amazing and is worth a read. His definition of New Netherland, IIRC, includes western Long Island, NYC, Fairfield County (CT), North Jersey, and (for our purposes in this thread) Westchester, Rockland, and Putnam Counties (NY). Everything else in New York (in other words, the definition of Upstate), as well as PA's Northern Tier, is part of Yankeedom. From this Tufts article (http://emerald.tufts.edu/alumni/magazine/fall2013/features/up-in-arms.html) the author wrote a couple of years ago, he described both Yankeedom and New Netherland as follows:
Quote from: Colin WoodardYANKEEDOM. Founded on the shores of Massachusetts Bay by radical Calvinists as a new Zion, Yankeedom has, since the outset, put great emphasis on perfecting earthly civilization through social engineering, denial of self for the common good, and assimilation of outsiders. It has prized education, intellectual achievement, communal empowerment, and broad citizen participation in politics and government, the latter seen as the public's shield against the machinations of grasping aristocrats and other would-be tyrants. Since the early Puritans, it has been more comfortable with government regulation and public-sector social projects than many of the other nations, who regard the Yankee utopian streak with trepidation.
NEW NETHERLAND. Established by the Dutch at a time when the Netherlands was the most sophisticated society in the Western world, New Netherland has always been a global commercial culture–materialistic, with a profound tolerance for ethnic and religious diversity and an unflinching commitment to the freedom of inquiry and conscience. Like seventeenth-century Amsterdam, it emerged as a center of publishing, trade, and finance, a magnet for immigrants, and a refuge for those persecuted by other regional cultures, from Sephardim in the seventeenth century to gays, feminists, and bohemians in the early twentieth. Unconcerned with great moral questions, it nonetheless has found itself in alliance with Yankeedom to defend public institutions and reject evangelical prescriptions for individual behavior.
Yet that barely scratches the surface of his argumentation in the book, where he goes into more detail. How would I put it? With some exceptions, at the time of the settlement of Upstate, New England was largely homogenous since most of the early Yankee ancestors came primarily from East Anglia, though only on religion is it an open question. New Netherland, on the other hand, though, had people from all over the place settle, and thus is everything New England was - and to some degree still is - not. That's only just a brief summary - I'd go on and on about it, if need be.
Quote from: vdeane on September 02, 2016, 09:18:26 PM
I wouldn't think of it in terms of one half of the park being different than the other but in the park being a buffer between greater NYC development and everything else.
Agreed; I wouldn't either. That's why I was curious why one might divide the park simply because a county line runs through it.
QuoteSullivan is definitely downstate. Just look at Schumer's push to widen NY 17 from I-87 all the way to the casino (which would probably get much of the Quickway upgraded to I-86 in the process)! IMO an area isn't truly rural if the freeway is six lanes wide, which would point to the area being a suburb/exurb of NYC.
I agree there's a palpable downstate influence through much of that county. Whether freeway wideness is a measure of that influence is debatable, but it definitely exists.
Quote from: noelbotevera on September 02, 2016, 10:14:42 PM
Ah, I misjudged how I placed my dividing line. But I'd say that I'd still place the line to be north of Poughkeepsie, excluding Delaware County. My reasoning is that several medium sized towns (Kingston, Poughkeepsie, Beacon/Newburgh, etc.) actually make up a fair amount of population. Despite decreasing populations in these areas, the area still has a population of about 670,000, and is considering to still be part of the NYC metro, despite being a good 2 hours from New York City. The area is actually slowing growing because of how rural it is and having Metro-North service.
From your rationale alone, I'd say you put the line about where I put it: at the limits of Metro North service, plus contiguous development.
You're right that the small Hudson Valley cities (Poughkeepsie, Newburgh, Kingston) do form mini-metro areas of their own, and their autonomy from NYC is declining as commute patterns migrate outward. But they do still represent islands of population on the fringe of the greater metro area; you can actually travel inward from any of those places and encounter much less-developed area before you start to see suburbanization increase again. Part of that's because development patterns from those cities and from NYC haven't quite grown to meet each other yet, but much more of it is due to large areas of undevelopable land in between (Harriman, Bear Mountain and Fahnestock state parks, along with the West Point reservation and a large inventory of conserved open space).
Beacon I would place in a slightly different category: it serves somewhat as a destination city, similar to Cold Spring. Although there is a resident population there (and in neighboring Fishkill), the city also has an important presence in the recreation and tourism sector. As such, it attracts travelers
from the city, in addition to harboring commuters
to the city.
Quote from: The Nature Boy on September 03, 2016, 08:42:03 AM
I would put Newburgh and Poughkeepsie in a gray area. It has a feel that is distinct from Westchester and even Rockland Counties. Sure, it's still within the New York sphere but it's far enough removed that it begins to feel outside of it. I would put that area in Upstate New York. As you note, it's relatively close to Albany and Albany is undeniably Upstate.
You can go either way, especially with Newburgh, since it's not on Metro North (at least directly–there is a ferry connection to the Beacon station). Poughkeepsie does have Metro North service, but it does also stand alone as its own metro area, albeit one that would be rather smaller if not for the proximity of NYC. There is, of course, also Metro North service in eastern Dutchess County, but service is far less consistent and the area is decidedly less developed; the same is even more markedly true of Orange County.
Quote from: dcbjms on September 03, 2016, 08:42:01 PM
Thanks. :nod: Colin Woodard's book is amazing and is worth a read. His definition of New Netherland, IIRC, includes western Long Island, NYC, Fairfield County (CT), North Jersey, and (for our purposes in this thread) Westchester, Rockland, and Putnam Counties (NY). Everything else in New York (in other words, the definition of Upstate), as well as PA's Northern Tier, is part of Yankeedom. From this Tufts article (http://emerald.tufts.edu/alumni/magazine/fall2013/features/up-in-arms.html) the author wrote a couple of years ago, he described both Yankeedom and New Netherland as follows:
Quote from: Colin WoodardYANKEEDOM. Founded on the shores of Massachusetts Bay by radical Calvinists as a new Zion, Yankeedom has, since the outset, put great emphasis on perfecting earthly civilization through social engineering, denial of self for the common good, and assimilation of outsiders. It has prized education, intellectual achievement, communal empowerment, and broad citizen participation in politics and government, the latter seen as the public's shield against the machinations of grasping aristocrats and other would-be tyrants. Since the early Puritans, it has been more comfortable with government regulation and public-sector social projects than many of the other nations, who regard the Yankee utopian streak with trepidation.
NEW NETHERLAND. Established by the Dutch at a time when the Netherlands was the most sophisticated society in the Western world, New Netherland has always been a global commercial culture–materialistic, with a profound tolerance for ethnic and religious diversity and an unflinching commitment to the freedom of inquiry and conscience. Like seventeenth-century Amsterdam, it emerged as a center of publishing, trade, and finance, a magnet for immigrants, and a refuge for those persecuted by other regional cultures, from Sephardim in the seventeenth century to gays, feminists, and bohemians in the early twentieth. Unconcerned with great moral questions, it nonetheless has found itself in alliance with Yankeedom to defend public institutions and reject evangelical prescriptions for individual behavior.
That puts into words much of what I've only subconsciously noticed to be the difference between the two. There is something about the "New Netherland" ethos that feels a little less native to me than the "New England" one, which is understandable given that I was raised Upstate from New England parentage. Although New Netherland naturally expands its sphere as migration spreads away from NYC, even here in Putnam County, and certainly in Dutchess, I see a bit more of a blending in of Yankeedom.
Quote from: empirestate on September 05, 2016, 02:27:05 PM
Quote from: vdeane on September 02, 2016, 09:18:26 PM
I wouldn't think of it in terms of one half of the park being different than the other but in the park being a buffer between greater NYC development and everything else.
Agreed; I wouldn't either. That's why I was curious why one might divide the park simply because a county line runs through it.
I guess I would say that the park is both upstate and downstate in many respects, so it seems convenient to follow the county lines rather than split counties.
Quote from: vdeane on September 05, 2016, 06:55:18 PM
Quote from: empirestate on September 05, 2016, 02:27:05 PM
Quote from: vdeane on September 02, 2016, 09:18:26 PM
I wouldn't think of it in terms of one half of the park being different than the other but in the park being a buffer between greater NYC development and everything else.
Agreed; I wouldn't either. That's why I was curious why one might divide the park simply because a county line runs through it.
I guess I would say that the park is both upstate and downstate in many respects, so it seems convenient to follow the county lines rather than split counties.
Is that where you put the line, too? It was a different poster who proposed it, that I was replying to.
In any case, the only problem with following the county line there is that there's no observable, tangible difference between one side and the other. Like I said, if your definition really doesn't extend beyond a list of locations that are or aren't Upstate, that's fine, but that's beyond the scope of the topic. The whole idea is to be able to say "Yes, that location is [or is not] Upstate, because of [XYZ]." Basically, we're looking to identify XYZ.
So Catskill Park might well be a gray area, but ultimately it doesn't matter for the question. Once we've identified XYZ, we can say that XYZ applies to the park, or it doesn't, or it sort-of does. But it's just completely implausible that we'll find an XYZ that's true on one side of a county line but not the other.
I guess that brings up the question of which is more significant: the park, or the county?
If we're using geographical features, the Shawangunk Ridge that cuts through eastern Sullivan County is a pretty good indicator as well. NYC influence pretty much stops at it. Runs just east of US 209 and is a northern continuation of PA's Blue Mountain.
Quote from: vdeane on September 06, 2016, 01:42:11 PM
I guess that brings up the question of which is more significant: the park, or the county?
For the purposes of this thread, it's got to be the park. Being inside the Catskill Park would have demonstrable, observable differences than being outside of it. Building and development, permitted land uses, all that sort of thing would be tangibly different inside the park. By contrast, nothing much will change just by crossing a county line, at least not in that area. There might be places where a county boundary draws a starker contrast, but not in the middle of Catskill Park.
But again, we needn't worry about administrative lines. Think about the building and development patterns, the permitted land uses, commute patterns, prevailing retail styles, dominant industries, etc. Form your definition of Upstate based on things like that, or anything else that tangibly influences daily life. Then, we draw the line based on those criteria, and if it happens to fall on a county or park boundary, so be it. But if not, now we know that, whereas we didn't know before we started asking the question.
Quote from: empirestate on September 05, 2016, 02:27:05 PM
That puts into words much of what I've only subconsciously noticed to be the difference between the two. There is something about the "New Netherland" ethos that feels a little less native to me than the "New England" one, which is understandable given that I was raised Upstate from New England parentage. Although New Netherland naturally expands its sphere as migration spreads away from NYC, even here in Putnam County, and certainly in Dutchess, I see a bit more of a blending in of Yankeedom.
I agree, most definitely. Part of the reason why I like Colin Woodard's book; that and
Albion's Seed define a lot. It certainly explains a lot about Upstate, though here Woodard fails to take into account the cultural orbit of Toronto in the case of Western New York (or, rather, how Buffalo and Toronto are two poles of the same metro area, completing the Golden Horseshoe despite two different regions Woodard defines, where Buffalo/Niagara Falls is Yankeedom and the GTA is Midlands).
Quote from: dcbjms on September 06, 2016, 02:40:35 PM
Quote from: empirestate on September 05, 2016, 02:27:05 PM
That puts into words much of what I've only subconsciously noticed to be the difference between the two. There is something about the "New Netherland" ethos that feels a little less native to me than the "New England" one, which is understandable given that I was raised Upstate from New England parentage. Although New Netherland naturally expands its sphere as migration spreads away from NYC, even here in Putnam County, and certainly in Dutchess, I see a bit more of a blending in of Yankeedom.
I agree, most definitely. Part of the reason why I like Colin Woodard's book; that and Albion's Seed define a lot. It certainly explains a lot about Upstate, though here Woodard fails to take into account the cultural orbit of Toronto in the case of Western New York (or, rather, how Buffalo and Toronto are two poles of the same metro area, completing the Golden Horseshoe despite two different regions Woodard defines, where Buffalo/Niagara Falls is Yankeedom and the GTA is Midlands).
Buffalo/Niagara Falls is Midlands and I say that having lived there. It has a very Midwestern feel and a very noticeable cultural shift takes place between Buffalo and Rochester. Rochester feels a lot like the Northeast, Buffalo does not. Go inland and it isn't as much of the case, but the area along Lake Erie has more in common with Chicago than Boston or even Albany.
Quote from: cl94 on September 06, 2016, 02:53:47 PM
Quote from: dcbjms on September 06, 2016, 02:40:35 PM
Quote from: empirestate on September 05, 2016, 02:27:05 PM
That puts into words much of what I've only subconsciously noticed to be the difference between the two. There is something about the "New Netherland" ethos that feels a little less native to me than the "New England" one, which is understandable given that I was raised Upstate from New England parentage. Although New Netherland naturally expands its sphere as migration spreads away from NYC, even here in Putnam County, and certainly in Dutchess, I see a bit more of a blending in of Yankeedom.
I agree, most definitely. Part of the reason why I like Colin Woodard's book; that and Albion's Seed define a lot. It certainly explains a lot about Upstate, though here Woodard fails to take into account the cultural orbit of Toronto in the case of Western New York (or, rather, how Buffalo and Toronto are two poles of the same metro area, completing the Golden Horseshoe despite two different regions Woodard defines, where Buffalo/Niagara Falls is Yankeedom and the GTA is Midlands).
Buffalo/Niagara Falls is Midlands and I say that having lived there. It has a very Midwestern feel and a very noticeable cultural shift takes place between Buffalo and Rochester. Rochester feels a lot like the Northeast, Buffalo does not. Go inland and it isn't as much of the case, but the area along Lake Erie has more in common with Chicago than Boston or even Albany.
I've noticed that you start hearing Midwestern vowel shifts as far east as Central New York. I've met a couple of people from there who definitely sounded similar to someone from Michigan or Ohio. Someone from the Ithaca, NY area sounds more similar to someone from a Detroit suburb than they do someone from NYC.
Quote from: The Nature Boy on September 06, 2016, 10:56:58 PM
Quote from: cl94 on September 06, 2016, 02:53:47 PM
Quote from: dcbjms on September 06, 2016, 02:40:35 PM
Quote from: empirestate on September 05, 2016, 02:27:05 PM
That puts into words much of what I've only subconsciously noticed to be the difference between the two. There is something about the "New Netherland" ethos that feels a little less native to me than the "New England" one, which is understandable given that I was raised Upstate from New England parentage. Although New Netherland naturally expands its sphere as migration spreads away from NYC, even here in Putnam County, and certainly in Dutchess, I see a bit more of a blending in of Yankeedom.
I agree, most definitely. Part of the reason why I like Colin Woodard's book; that and Albion's Seed define a lot. It certainly explains a lot about Upstate, though here Woodard fails to take into account the cultural orbit of Toronto in the case of Western New York (or, rather, how Buffalo and Toronto are two poles of the same metro area, completing the Golden Horseshoe despite two different regions Woodard defines, where Buffalo/Niagara Falls is Yankeedom and the GTA is Midlands).
Buffalo/Niagara Falls is Midlands and I say that having lived there. It has a very Midwestern feel and a very noticeable cultural shift takes place between Buffalo and Rochester. Rochester feels a lot like the Northeast, Buffalo does not. Go inland and it isn't as much of the case, but the area along Lake Erie has more in common with Chicago than Boston or even Albany.
I've noticed that you start hearing Midwestern vowel shifts as far east as Central New York. I've met a couple of people from there who definitely sounded similar to someone from Michigan or Ohio. Someone from the Ithaca, NY area sounds more similar to someone from a Detroit suburb than they do someone from NYC.
The shift starts happening around I-81, but it's complete by Buffalo. In many ways, Rochester, Ithaca and Syracuse feel like east coast cities. Buffalo is a smaller version of Cleveland or Detroit in more ways than one. On the other hand, I grew up in Lake George and, depending on who I talk to, people in Buffalo think I'm either from Maine or New York City. Don't ask me how they get that one, because I don't sound like either, nor do I think Maine really has an accent.
Quote from: cl94 on September 06, 2016, 11:49:38 PM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on September 06, 2016, 10:56:58 PM
I've noticed that you start hearing Midwestern vowel shifts as far east as Central New York. I've met a couple of people from there who definitely sounded similar to someone from Michigan or Ohio. Someone from the Ithaca, NY area sounds more similar to someone from a Detroit suburb than they do someone from NYC.
The shift starts happening around I-81, but it's complete by Buffalo. In many ways, Rochester, Ithaca and Syracuse feel like east coast cities. Buffalo is a smaller version of Cleveland or Detroit in more ways than one. On the other hand, I grew up in Lake George and, depending on who I talk to, people in Buffalo think I'm either from Maine or New York City. Don't ask me how they get that one, because I don't sound like either, nor do I think Maine really has an accent.
The more I've traveled around the Midwest, the more I'm inclined to place Rochester there than in the Northeast. I see a lot more similarity to Wisconsin than I do to Vermont or western Massachusetts. Even the accent is similar, and is pretty firmly in place by the time you get to Rochester.
Quote from: empirestate on September 07, 2016, 05:19:59 PM
Quote from: cl94 on September 06, 2016, 11:49:38 PM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on September 06, 2016, 10:56:58 PM
I've noticed that you start hearing Midwestern vowel shifts as far east as Central New York. I've met a couple of people from there who definitely sounded similar to someone from Michigan or Ohio. Someone from the Ithaca, NY area sounds more similar to someone from a Detroit suburb than they do someone from NYC.
The shift starts happening around I-81, but it's complete by Buffalo. In many ways, Rochester, Ithaca and Syracuse feel like east coast cities. Buffalo is a smaller version of Cleveland or Detroit in more ways than one. On the other hand, I grew up in Lake George and, depending on who I talk to, people in Buffalo think I'm either from Maine or New York City. Don't ask me how they get that one, because I don't sound like either, nor do I think Maine really has an accent.
The more I've traveled around the Midwest, the more I'm inclined to place Rochester there than in the Northeast. I see a lot more similarity to Wisconsin than I do to Vermont or western Massachusetts. Even the accent is similar, and is pretty firmly in place by the time you get to Rochester.
An interesting map is the Pop vs Soda map, which shows a clear divide somewhere between Rochester and Syracuse.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.huffingtonpost.com%2F2012-11-09-Screenshot20121109at3.05.00PM.png&hash=93dce848935273357d3219f121d66fb83b75e8c3) (http://images.huffingtonpost.com/2012-11-09-Screenshot20121109at3.05.00PM.png)
Meanwhile, this one places the divide directly on Rochester:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdiscovermagazine.com%2F%7E%2Fmedia%2FImages%2FWeb%2520exclusives%2F2013%2FJune%2Flanguage%2520maps%2Fsoda-pop.png%3Fmw%3D738&hash=effbeb0e988371ccad344eef11d549cd0f0796fc)
Given the vocabulary in my family, I'm inclined to place that border directly on the Genesee River.
A few years ago the Rochester Democrat and Chronicle tracked the pop/soda divide down to a specific diner in Waterloo.
So Rochester is a gray zone. Buffalo is definitely Midwest, Syracuse is east coast.
Quote from: GenExpwy on September 08, 2016, 01:13:09 AM
A few years ago the Rochester Democrat and Chronicle tracked the divide down to a specific diner in Waterloo.
If they tried real hard, they would find a person who switches accents while walking from (midwest) bedroom to (east coast) kitchen
I think of Upstate NY as anything outside of the general NYC area.
Quote from: swbrotha100 on September 09, 2016, 10:38:24 AM
I think of Upstate NY as anything outside of the general NYC area.
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Quote from: GenExpwy on September 08, 2016, 01:13:09 AM
A few years ago the Rochester Democrat and Chronicle tracked the pop/soda divide down to a specific diner in Waterloo.
As a Syracuse-area native, I have always noticed a somewhat small shift from "East Coast" to "Great Lakes/Midwest" anywhere around Waterloo, Senaca Falls, and Geneva. Those areas just have a different "feel" than Auburn on east. It's almost like the Montezuma NWR separates the East Coast/Midwest feel.
Also, I have always said "soda", not "pop." Still do, although I live near Cincinnati now. Or I would say the brand name. But never have I called it "pop."
Quote from: amroad17 on September 10, 2016, 05:15:09 AM
Quote from: GenExpwy on September 08, 2016, 01:13:09 AM
A few years ago the Rochester Democrat and Chronicle tracked the pop/soda divide down to a specific diner in Waterloo.
As a Syracuse-area native, I have always noticed a somewhat small shift from "East Coast" to "Great Lakes/Midwest" anywhere around Waterloo, Senaca Falls, and Geneva. Those areas just have a different "feel" than Auburn on east. It's almost like the Montezuma NWR separates the East Coast/Midwest feel.
Also, I have always said "soda", not "pop." Still do, although I live near Cincinnati now. Or I would say the brand name. But never have I called it "pop."
I actually found a food stand in Pittsburgh that had soda more expensive than pop. The reason why? It's from Philadelphia, so they say soda, and Pittsburgh is mostly pop.
^ God, you're up early...or I'm up real late (I did not come home from work until 3:30 am).
Quote from: amroad17 on September 10, 2016, 06:08:07 AM
^ God, you're up early...or I'm up real late (I did not come home from work until 3:30 am).
Nah I was up real late for that post. Sometimes I do wake up that early for no reason :-D
Speaking of all this Upstate NY talk, I'm not sure how I would place Buffalo/Niagara Falls. It's only two hours away from Erie, Pennsylvania and Toronto, Ontario. I'm thinking of placing it in a separate region, just because of the area being mostly related to Canada. I don't really think it belongs in Upstate New York, nor Western New York, because of the aforementioned proximity to Canada.
Quote from: noelbotevera on September 10, 2016, 01:37:24 PM
Speaking of all this Upstate NY talk, I'm not sure how I would place Buffalo/Niagara Falls. It's only two hours away from Erie, Pennsylvania and Toronto, Ontario. I'm thinking of placing it in a separate region, just because of the area being mostly related to Canada. I don't really think it belongs in Upstate New York, nor Western New York, because of the aforementioned proximity to Canada.
I have never been able to recognize any definition of Upstate that doesn't encompass everything that isn't "downstate". Buffalo is absolutely, unequivocally Upstate for me, because it sure as heck isn't downstate.
iPhone
Quote from: noelbotevera on September 10, 2016, 01:37:24 PM
Quote from: amroad17 on September 10, 2016, 06:08:07 AM
^ God, you're up early...or I'm up real late (I did not come home from work until 3:30 am).
Nah I was up real late for that post. Sometimes I do wake up that early for no reason :-D
Speaking of all this Upstate NY talk, I'm not sure how I would place Buffalo/Niagara Falls. It's only two hours away from Erie, Pennsylvania and Toronto, Ontario. I'm thinking of placing it in a separate region, just because of the area being mostly related to Canada. I don't really think it belongs in Upstate New York, nor Western New York, because of the aforementioned proximity to Canada.
Clinton, Franklin, and St. Lawrence Counties also share a border with Canada. Clinton County (and possibly Franklin County) even share a media market with Montreal. WFFF out of Burlington, VT and Plattsburgh, NY even includes Montreal in its branding.
Buffalo is undeniably the economic hub of Western New York.
Quote from: The Nature Boy on September 10, 2016, 02:44:04 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on September 10, 2016, 01:37:24 PM
Quote from: amroad17 on September 10, 2016, 06:08:07 AM
^ God, you're up early...or I'm up real late (I did not come home from work until 3:30 am).
Nah I was up real late for that post. Sometimes I do wake up that early for no reason :-D
Speaking of all this Upstate NY talk, I'm not sure how I would place Buffalo/Niagara Falls. It's only two hours away from Erie, Pennsylvania and Toronto, Ontario. I'm thinking of placing it in a separate region, just because of the area being mostly related to Canada. I don't really think it belongs in Upstate New York, nor Western New York, because of the aforementioned proximity to Canada.
Clinton, Franklin, and St. Lawrence Counties also share a border with Canada. Clinton County (and possibly Franklin County) even share a media market with Montreal. WFFF out of Burlington, VT and Plattsburgh, NY even includes Montreal in its branding.
Buffalo is undeniably the economic hub of Western New York.
If we're including media markets as part of this, Buffalo and Toronto share one. Buffalo cable typically carries most local Toronto stations and you can get just about every Toronto radio station west of Rochester.
Quote from: The Nature Boy on September 10, 2016, 02:44:04 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on September 10, 2016, 01:37:24 PM
Quote from: amroad17 on September 10, 2016, 06:08:07 AM
^ God, you're up early...or I'm up real late (I did not come home from work until 3:30 am).
Nah I was up real late for that post. Sometimes I do wake up that early for no reason :-D
Speaking of all this Upstate NY talk, I'm not sure how I would place Buffalo/Niagara Falls. It's only two hours away from Erie, Pennsylvania and Toronto, Ontario. I'm thinking of placing it in a separate region, just because of the area being mostly related to Canada. I don't really think it belongs in Upstate New York, nor Western New York, because of the aforementioned proximity to Canada.
Clinton, Franklin, and St. Lawrence Counties also share a border with Canada. Clinton County (and possibly Franklin County) even share a media market with Montreal. WFFF out of Burlington, VT and Plattsburgh, NY even includes Montreal in its branding.
Buffalo is undeniably the economic hub of Western New York.
Talking about Canada influence... Once upon a time I had some official business in Clinton county (thanks to a trooper who patrolled completely empty interstate), and DA was using french as a default speaking language.... Paperwork was, obviously, in english, though.
Western NY is very much like Ontario... just look at all the Tim Hortons locations! When I was clinching some stuff in Western NY and had the radio on 101.3 (for Rochester's station), when I started getting out of range near Arcade the station that started taking over was from either Kitchener or London (that may have been the mountains though; I can pick up Providence stations on parts of the western MassPike but only near Blandford).
I believe there was a push to make signage in Franklin County bilingual not too long ago.
Quote from: cl94 on September 10, 2016, 03:12:00 PM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on September 10, 2016, 02:44:04 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on September 10, 2016, 01:37:24 PM
Quote from: amroad17 on September 10, 2016, 06:08:07 AM
^ God, you're up early...or I'm up real late (I did not come home from work until 3:30 am).
Nah I was up real late for that post. Sometimes I do wake up that early for no reason :-D
Speaking of all this Upstate NY talk, I'm not sure how I would place Buffalo/Niagara Falls. It's only two hours away from Erie, Pennsylvania and Toronto, Ontario. I'm thinking of placing it in a separate region, just because of the area being mostly related to Canada. I don't really think it belongs in Upstate New York, nor Western New York, because of the aforementioned proximity to Canada.
Clinton, Franklin, and St. Lawrence Counties also share a border with Canada. Clinton County (and possibly Franklin County) even share a media market with Montreal. WFFF out of Burlington, VT and Plattsburgh, NY even includes Montreal in its branding.
Buffalo is undeniably the economic hub of Western New York.
If we're including media markets as part of this, Buffalo and Toronto share one. Buffalo cable typically carries most local Toronto stations and you can get just about every Toronto radio station west of Rochester.
I was countering the idea that being close to Canada somehow invalidated Buffalo being in Western or Upstate New York.
Quote from: kalvado on September 10, 2016, 03:38:50 PM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on September 10, 2016, 02:44:04 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on September 10, 2016, 01:37:24 PM
Quote from: amroad17 on September 10, 2016, 06:08:07 AM
^ God, you're up early...or I'm up real late (I did not come home from work until 3:30 am).
Nah I was up real late for that post. Sometimes I do wake up that early for no reason :-D
Speaking of all this Upstate NY talk, I'm not sure how I would place Buffalo/Niagara Falls. It's only two hours away from Erie, Pennsylvania and Toronto, Ontario. I'm thinking of placing it in a separate region, just because of the area being mostly related to Canada. I don't really think it belongs in Upstate New York, nor Western New York, because of the aforementioned proximity to Canada.
Clinton, Franklin, and St. Lawrence Counties also share a border with Canada. Clinton County (and possibly Franklin County) even share a media market with Montreal. WFFF out of Burlington, VT and Plattsburgh, NY even includes Montreal in its branding.
Buffalo is undeniably the economic hub of Western New York.
Talking about Canada influence... Once upon a time I had some official business in Clinton county (thanks to a trooper who patrolled completely empty interstate), and DA was using french as a default speaking language.... Paperwork was, obviously, in english, though.
That's not terribly uncommon in the rural North. There are also some French speaking communities in northern Maine, New Hampshire, and Vermont. The Canadian influence is arguably stronger in those communities than in Buffalo (where you can argue that the influence is both ways).
Quote from: The Nature Boy on September 10, 2016, 03:52:37 PM
Quote from: kalvado on September 10, 2016, 03:38:50 PM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on September 10, 2016, 02:44:04 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on September 10, 2016, 01:37:24 PM
Quote from: amroad17 on September 10, 2016, 06:08:07 AM
^ God, you're up early...or I'm up real late (I did not come home from work until 3:30 am).
Nah I was up real late for that post. Sometimes I do wake up that early for no reason :-D
Speaking of all this Upstate NY talk, I'm not sure how I would place Buffalo/Niagara Falls. It's only two hours away from Erie, Pennsylvania and Toronto, Ontario. I'm thinking of placing it in a separate region, just because of the area being mostly related to Canada. I don't really think it belongs in Upstate New York, nor Western New York, because of the aforementioned proximity to Canada.
Clinton, Franklin, and St. Lawrence Counties also share a border with Canada. Clinton County (and possibly Franklin County) even share a media market with Montreal. WFFF out of Burlington, VT and Plattsburgh, NY even includes Montreal in its branding.
Buffalo is undeniably the economic hub of Western New York.
Talking about Canada influence... Once upon a time I had some official business in Clinton county (thanks to a trooper who patrolled completely empty interstate), and DA was using french as a default speaking language.... Paperwork was, obviously, in english, though.
That's not terribly uncommon in the rural North. There are also some French speaking communities in northern Maine, New Hampshire, and Vermont. The Canadian influence is arguably stronger in those communities than in Buffalo (where you can argue that the influence is both ways).
Completely agree. The influence in Buffalo is weird. Huge Canadian cultural influence there and speaking patterns in some ways reflect GTA colloquialisms. People in Buffalo are, in general, obsessed with ketchup chips, Swiss Chalet and Tim Hortons and you will get people crossing the border just for the first 2. Conversely, people in the Niagara Region are obsessed with Wegmans and it is not uncommon to see the parking lot filled with Ontario plates.
As far as the Quebec border, get north of Saratoga Springs in New York and the French Canadian influence becomes apparent very quickly. Many are of French Canadian ancestry, many speak French and there's quite a bit of cultural influence.
Another good way of determining what's Upstate is whether Cellino & Barnes' number is 888-8888, or 454-2020! :bigass:
Quote from: empirestate on September 12, 2016, 09:20:21 AM
Another good way of determining what's Upstate is whether Cellino & Barnes' number is 888-8888, or 454-2020! :bigass:
I thought they changed all their phone numbers to 888-8888 (Buffalo stations use this number now)? Also wasn't the old number 854-2020 (see below video), Or maybe it varied depending on where you are in the state?
What a great jingle, though I still think the 888-8888 number somewhat ruins it. :-(
Quote from: 7/8 on September 12, 2016, 09:33:00 AM
Quote from: empirestate on September 12, 2016, 09:20:21 AM
Another good way of determining what's Upstate is whether Cellino & Barnes' number is 888-8888, or 454-2020! :bigass:
I thought they changed all their phone numbers to 888-8888 (Buffalo stations use this number now)? Also wasn't the old number 854-2020 (see below video), Or maybe it varied depending on where you are in the state?
What a great jingle, though I still think the 888-8888 number somewhat ruins it. :-(
I'm quite sure it was 454 in Rochester; that's a common local exchange. The area code wasn't in that jingle, so it was a local number. These days I'm sure they just use the toll-free 888-8888 for all markets, and they do sing the area code now.
iPhone
Quote from: empirestate on September 12, 2016, 11:05:09 AM
Quote from: 7/8 on September 12, 2016, 09:33:00 AM
Quote from: empirestate on September 12, 2016, 09:20:21 AM
Another good way of determining what's Upstate is whether Cellino & Barnes' number is 888-8888, or 454-2020! :bigass:
I thought they changed all their phone numbers to 888-8888 (Buffalo stations use this number now)? Also wasn't the old number 854-2020 (see below video), Or maybe it varied depending on where you are in the state?
What a great jingle, though I still think the 888-8888 number somewhat ruins it. :-(
I'm quite sure it was 454 in Rochester; that's a common local exchange. The area code wasn't in that jingle, so it was a local number. These days I'm sure they just use the toll-free 888-8888 for all markets, and they do sing the area code now.
iPhone
Upstate markets use the local area code. NYC uses 800 and it really messes with the jingle, as they say "800-888-8888".
Quote from: cl94 on September 12, 2016, 11:32:14 AM
Upstate markets use the local area code. NYC uses 800 and it really messes with the jingle, as they say "800-888-8888".
Yeah:
Call | four five four twen - ty | twen - tyEight | hund - red eight eight eight eight eight | eight eightAnd the red ones aren't even the same pitch.
In Rochester, they use:
Call | eight eight eight eight - eight | eight - eight
Quote from: vdeane on September 12, 2016, 09:26:04 PM
In Rochester, they use:
Call | eight eight eight eight - eight | eight - eight
Oh, so they've changed it.
Meanwhile, I've got to run down to J&E Grocery, 139 Reynolds St.
Empirestate, not being from there I really don't have any visual experience with anything north of the I-95 corridor through the Bronx. Though I was born and grew up in the midwest, my family roots are in the NYC metro area, to include close in New Jersey and Long Island. For me "Upstate" was always anything north of the line created by I-287 west of the Tappan Zee and across to the NW corner of the NY/CT border.
Why, you ask? Because in my minds eye as a child that was where the suburbs of NYC ended and the rest of the state began. I never thought to ask my older family members to clarify that for me for reasons unknown even to me. I just know that whenever someone in my family said the word "upstate" my mind immediately said north of that line that I mentioned. I now know that I was wrong all these years, that there is more to it than just that line on the map, and that NY is a multifaceted state with many different areas.
Just resurrecting an old thread - but an interesting paper was brought up:
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0166083
They are analyzing "megaregions" and links between communities.
Long story short - look at fig. 5 and 6. Brown area with some adjacent white in adirondacks is pretty much what I would call upstate - although they are calling that "hudson valley" in Fig. 11...
The Hudson Valley is generally upstate. The cultural Hudson Valley runs to approximately Washington County.
Quote from: cl94 on December 06, 2016, 06:54:38 PM
The Hudson Valley is generally upstate. The cultural Hudson Valley runs to approximately Washington County.
Problem is that they use "hudson valley" term very lousy - part of the area they mark has nothing to do with Hudson (for example that small chunk of NH), and most of geographical hudson valley is not within region they marked...
Problem is that they use "hudson valley" term very lousy - part of the area they mark has nothing to do with Hudson (for example that small chunk of NH), and most of geographical hudson valley is not within region they marked...
[/quote]
How is part of New Hampshire in the Hudson Valley?
Quote from: 1 on December 06, 2016, 07:29:44 PM
Problem is that they use "hudson valley" term very lousy - part of the area they mark has nothing to do with Hudson (for example that small chunk of NH), and most of geographical hudson valley is not within region they marked...
How is part of New Hampshire in the Hudson Valley?
[/quote]
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure/image?download&size=large&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0166083.g011
That's a different story. "Western New England" is what most call that region. Vermont, eastern Adirondacks down to Albany.
Quote from: kalvado on December 06, 2016, 05:22:02 PM
Just resurrecting an old thread - but an interesting paper was brought up:
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0166083
They are analyzing "megaregions" and links between communities.
Long story short - look at fig. 5 and 6. Brown area with some adjacent white in adirondacks is pretty much what I would call upstate - although they are calling that "hudson valley" in Fig. 11...
Add the pink bit, and you've got pretty much my definition.
And the names chosen in that paper aren't terribly realistic, as others have discussed. Much of the actual Hudson Valley is in the NYC commuter sphere (what I would consider Downstate).
This map is probably most accurate when referring to Upstate vs. Downstate, in the purposes of this thread.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fak-hdl.buzzfed.com%2Fstatic%2Fenhanced%2Fwebdr06%2F2013%2F7%2F17%2F11%2Fenhanced-buzz-26293-1374076005-17.jpg&hash=57b5a33719bce953338df2f4ff88f2a418c288be)
Quote from: ParrDa on July 15, 2017, 11:04:13 PM
On an outline of New York State (the one above works) find the longest straight line. Extend it east.
Above = upstate, below = downstate.
As far as the actual definition of upstate itself: Amazing. Lots of variety in every aspect. Totally different than anything south of the divide :bigass:
Sorry to revive an old thread but the apparent haze surrounding the subject baffles me :-o
Well, to clear out some of that haze, can you elaborate on how things are different on either side of that line (basically, the 42nd parallel)? How is somebody's life materially different in, say, Hancock than it is in Downsville? Or Kingston, rather than Saugerties? Millerton, versus Copake?
Quote from: ParrDa on July 15, 2017, 11:04:13 PM
On an outline of New York State (the one above works) find the longest straight line. Extend it east.
Above = upstate, below = downstate.
That means I'm upstate while Zaragoza is downstate :bigass:. Except that I'm nowhere near NY.
Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on July 16, 2017, 10:22:48 AM
Quote from: ParrDa on July 15, 2017, 11:04:13 PM
On an outline of New York State (the one above works) find the longest straight line. Extend it east.
Above = upstate, below = downstate.
That means I'm upstate while Zaragoza is downstate :bigass:. Except that I'm nowhere near NY.
Zaragoza is a relatively small mexican store in NYC, so yes - it is really downstate.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnewyork.seriouseats.com%2Fimages%2F2012%2F01%2Fzaragoza.jpg&hash=83168167db88f9b59268d2a1cebe8fd9e4091a24)
Or you meant something else?
Quote from: ParrDa on July 16, 2017, 10:18:42 AM
^ Well, that's just it. There is no tangible, measurable difference.
Similarly, what's different between Salamanca and Bradford? Mansfield and Corning?
By default, shifts in culture/lifestyle are going to be gradual. So if you're looking for a strict line, the 42nd parallel is the obvious (and only IMO) place to put it. It also works in terms of the definitions of "up" and "down"; neatly separating the two.
Well that's what I don't get: if there's no difference to one side or the other of the 42nd parallel, why do you consider it the only possible boundary, when there are other boundaries that do represent a tangible difference?
iPhone
Quote from: kalvado on July 16, 2017, 10:33:00 AMZaragoza is a relatively small mexican store in NYC, so yes - it is really downstate.
Or you meant something else?
I meant the city in Spain (https://www.google.es/maps/place/Zaragoza/@41.6516859,-0.9300004,13z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0xd5914dd5e618e91:0x49df13f1158489a8!8m2!3d41.6488226!4d-0.8890853). It's only 45 miles, and across the 42nd parallel, from were I live.
Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on July 16, 2017, 03:21:33 PM
Quote from: kalvado on July 16, 2017, 10:33:00 AMZaragoza is a relatively small mexican store in NYC, so yes - it is really downstate.
Or you meant something else?
I meant the city in Spain (https://www.google.es/maps/place/Zaragoza/@41.6516859,-0.9300004,13z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0xd5914dd5e618e91:0x49df13f1158489a8!8m2!3d41.6488226!4d-0.8890853). It's only 45 miles, and across the 42nd parall,el from were I live.
Oh,
that one...
For any New Yorkers, anything north of you, in New York (state)
Quote from: JJBers on July 16, 2017, 05:53:46 PM
For any New Yorkers, anything north of you, in New York (state)
Well, that's the cliché, which I pretty much cover straight off in the OP. But the actual question is a little more in depth than that.
iPhone
Quote from: empirestate on July 16, 2017, 07:33:47 PM
Quote from: JJBers on July 16, 2017, 05:53:46 PM
For any New Yorkers, anything north of you, in New York (state)
Well, that's the cliché, which I pretty much cover straight off in the OP. But the actual question is a little more in depth than that.
iPhone
In all seriousness, I consider the I-84 border as the best border you can get.
Quote from: JJBers on July 16, 2017, 05:53:46 PM
For any New Yorkers, anything north of you, in New York (state)
People in the North Country must be asking themselves "what is upstate?"
Quote from: JJBers on July 16, 2017, 07:36:09 PM
Quote from: empirestate on July 16, 2017, 07:33:47 PM
Quote from: JJBers on July 16, 2017, 05:53:46 PM
For any New Yorkers, anything north of you, in New York (state)
Well, that's the cliché, which I pretty much cover straight off in the OP. But the actual question is a little more in depth than that.
iPhone
In all seriousness, I consider the I-84 border as the best border you can get.
I agree that it's pretty close, but the pertinent question is why that happens to be. The idea is that you could decisively win an argument saying that Poughkeepsie is Upstate, whereas Newburgh isn't, and have a concrete reason to back that up beyond just saying that that's where you happen to draw the line.
iPhone
From NJ we call Bear Mountain Upstate. Then again in North Central Jersey we call Toms River South Jersey, but people I know in Salem County say Toms River is North Jersey.
It all depends where you are.
Quote from: empirestate on July 16, 2017, 07:33:47 PM
Quote from: JJBers on July 16, 2017, 05:53:46 PM
For any New Yorkers, anything north of you, in New York (state)
Well, that's the cliché, which I pretty much cover straight off in the OP. But the actual question is a little more in depth than that.
iPhone
I wonder what point it is where the cliche shifts from "everything north of me is upstate" to "everything south of me is downstate".
Quote from: ParrDa on July 17, 2017, 12:46:57 AM
My thought process is not based on differences.
That's fine, although just know that the question may therefore not apply to you, since it specifically wants to be thought of in terms of finding differences. (Or if we conclude that there's genuinely no difference to be found, that's also informative, but since we have identified a few so far, I don't think that's a likely outcome.)
QuoteIt is literally impossible to draw a line based on culture shifts alone. So I'm resorting to the definition of the words themselves. The 42nd parallel is the only place where you can neatly separate up from down within the state. So in that sense, there is no argument to be made. But maybe I'm unclear as to what you are actually looking for when you say "differences"?
Well, I lay all that out early on in the thread: starting in the OP, and expanding a bit more in reply #4 (plus a couple of times afterward). But to summarize it here:
The most usual definition of Upstate that I use corresponds to the limits of Metro North railroad service. So the difference there would be that a person who lives Upstate could not regularly and easily commute into NYC, whereas someone who is not Upstate can. And if someone told you that, for example, Poughkeepsie is an Upstate city, the way you'd "win the argument" would be to say, "No way it is–I get on a train to Manhattan every morning for work."
An even more explicit delineation would be that Upstate is everything outside of the Metropolitan Commuter Transportation District. This follows county lines (everything from Dutchess and Orange on down), but within those county lines there are taxes imposed on things like doing business or registering your car that aren't paid by people who live elsewhere. So that's a very real impact on everyday life that could be said to define Upstate vs. downstate. And the argument-winner there is, "I pay over a hundred bucks to register my car while other guys pay 30 or 40. I definitely don't live 'Upstate'."
So those two criteria seem like pretty solid ones to me. A few people have offered others, such as aligning with the NYC media market, or finding where local-born people predominantly have New York accents, but for the most part I don't think we've come up with anything much more convincing than my original ideas.
One of the most interesting new ideas that was mentioned is that Upstate coincides with settlement patterns based on migration from New England, whereas downstate is based on Dutch settlement originating around their colony at New York Harbor. This does seem to aptly describe the visible cultural differences, although the precise boundaries of this definition are necessarily fluid.
QuoteThat said, I'd be interested to know what boundaries do represent tangible differences. Not even any state boundaries come to mind, much less boundaries within a state.
One place you might immediately notice this are things like liquor laws. For example, in Utah you have to join a club to buy a beer, but in Colorado (and 48 other states) you don't. (I'm over-simplifying, but you get my drift.)
For defining "downstate", it would be where the cable TV systems carry NYC TV stations.
For definiing Western NY, it would be where the population drinks "pop".
For defining "upstate", it would be the remainder of the state.
Above I-287.
Quote from: ParrDa on July 17, 2017, 12:46:57 AM
This presents a problem. When you're in the city it makes sense to say "everything north of me is upstate" because 1) north is the only direction you can go to stay in NYS and 2) the state gets continually wider as you head north.
On the other hand, I've never heard "everything south of me is downstate". Obviously, there's no basis for it west of Syracuse anyways but it also just doesn't make sense where the state is hundreds of miles wide, instead of the width of Manhattan. I think the term "downstate" in general is not as widely used, and rarely if ever used to refer to areas north of the 42nd parallel. It's funny that going "down" requires going beneath the 42nd, but going "up" doesn't necessarily require going above it.
I guess that also means that the 42nd parallel is the northernmost possible limit of downstate?
Unless you're from the north country, in which case anything south of the thruway is downstate?
Well, obviously "everything south" is an exaggeration, but the definition of upstate does shift even among places that consider themselves to be upstate. In the North Country, everything south of the Adirondacks is downstate. For Albany, it's south of I-84. For Rochester, it's an extension of long straight part of the Pennsylvania border. So... where is the point where things shift from "downstate is south of me" to "upstate is north of me"?
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 17, 2017, 08:49:01 PM
Above I-287.
Even as a person that doesn't go to NY that that much, that's a little low in the boundary
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 17, 2017, 08:49:01 PM
Above I-287.
Okay, why there? What's different about life in Port Chester or Tarrytown as compared to, say, White Plains?
I say anything north of I-84 as well.
oops, ment I-84.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 18, 2017, 02:35:28 PM
oops, ment I-84.
How do you get I-84 confused with I-287
Quote from: JJBers on July 18, 2017, 03:41:15 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 18, 2017, 02:35:28 PM
oops, ment I-84.
How do you get I-84 confused with I-287
Same way as someone gets brake confused with the throttle...
Quote from: ParrDa on July 18, 2017, 11:38:43 PM
I understand what you're looking for - but it's impossible to draw a clear cut line because every criterion includes and excludes different areas. And since "upstate" and "downstate" are relative anyways it just seems like we're searching for something that's impossible to find.
Normally I wouldn't expect a clear cut line to be possible, so I'd allow that any answer is necessarily going to be nebulous. (How far from a Metro North station represents a practical distance, for example?) But if we take the MCTD as a criterion, that follows county lines and so it would, indeed, be clear cut. Of course, the answer would most likely take in more than just that one criterion, and the question is never meant to presuppose a hard, bright dividing line.
As for the terms being relative, I do address that in my question, too. It seems to me there's a distinction to be made between the relative use of the terms "upstate" and "downstate" and the idea of specific regions called "Upstate" and "Downstate". (For comparison, see also "north", "south", "the North" and "the South".)
QuoteI guess to clear up the haze, the only thing to say is that the definition depends on your location and the criteria your using. It takes both factors to get a complete picture from each point of view. That said, I still think the 42nd parallel is the literal dividing line, and people from out of state would use that to differentiate. I think that's a foregone conclusion aside from the internal state debate.
That describes the status quo pretty well, but the intent of the question, I suppose, is to explore whether it's possible to find criteria
alone that describe Upstate, thus taking out the subjectivity of location.
And I'm not as convinced as you that out-staters would agree on the 42nd parallel. Especially if they're not map-literate, I find it more likely they'd align with the stereotypical NYC-centric view, it being what they're most familiar with through mass media.
QuoteWith regards to liquor laws, I get the general gist but don't think it really applies. The state line, not the law, is the reason the divide exists in that spot.
Then I guess I don't understand your question. You asked for boundaries that "represent tangible differences"...in other words, a place where "the state line, not the law, is the reason the divide exists in that spot." No?
QuoteCenturies ago before state lines were drawn, you couldn't have used such a law to figure out the divide. Similarly, if upstate and downstate split, and one adopted a tougher stance on something like liquor, there would be a clear divide, but that's not any reflection of the differences in the culture/lifestyle of the two places. So I'm still struggling on the whole idea of strict lines separating ways of life.
Ah, maybe that's the issue: I'm not thinking so much about "ways of life"; i.e., broad, fundamental differences in culture, but rather things that demonstrably affect everyday life. A broadly different culture might be an effect of that, but not necessarily the cause.
QuoteFinally, the whole "win the argument" thing doesn't make sense to me. Under what circumstances would an actual argument take place? I think the general population understands that the terms are relative.
Oh, that one's easy, since I believe I initially posted this right after just such an "argument". Don't try to take that too literally–it was really just small talk at a party, and there was no acrimony at all. But as an Upstater transplated to the NYC area, it's a discussion I've had many, many times, where one person or the other will talk about being from "Upstate", but then name a city that is decidedly
not located in the region I'd call Upstate. Or vice versa.
So to "win the argument" is simply to state that difference of opinion, in such a way that the other person might change his view. And believe it or not, I've actually had some success with that–most people aren't holding stubbornly onto their own particular view; they often simply have never thought about it that much. (And actually winning an argument isn't the literal goal here; perhaps just to provide the terms of the argument to be made.)
QuotePerhaps phrasing the question a different way would lead to the type of results you were looking for? (Presuming that the preceding four paragraphs are not the type of results you were looking for :D)
Well, you'll note that I did realize that problem early on, and I've made a bunch of attempts to rephrase–mostly unsuccessful, so far. If I were to ask the question again, I'd actually take out the part about asking
where the line is drawn, and ask
only about the criteria for deciding. The idea being that, if we took everyone's criteria together and drew a fresh line based on them, we could see whether that line happened to fall where people would automatically say they place it.
But for that to work, you would have to accept the idea that there's a line to be drawn at all. Your view seems to be that there isn't, and that's a perfectly valid view–I certainly can't try to tell you you're wrong about that. It simply means that you'd be precluded from being able to answer the question; like if I said, "Here's a question for those of you from Utah" and you were not from Utah. :-)
Quote from: ParrDa on July 18, 2017, 11:50:07 PM
Well, I'd say there's a gray area (the "haze" we've been hashing over) where both are true. I think (or at least hope) we can all agree that anything north of the 42nd parallel is definitely upstate.
Well,
we might agree on that, but then, I was born and raised in Rochester. Someone from Massena might disagree. Many in the North Country consider the Thruway to be "downstate".
That said, I was thinking in terms of "how people in the area see themselves", no "how other people see that area".
I think that Downstate is defined by where the cable TV systems carry NYC TV stations. People living in those areas are New York City oriented; the people in the remainder of the state are not. This is more of a cultural definition than using a certain highway as the boundry or even using Metro North. It would also even devide certain counties, especially on the west side of the river.
Why does everyone want to be living in upstate, other than the intermediate cities to NYC (Yonkers, so on) and Long Island.
Quote from: empirestate on July 18, 2017, 11:13:00 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 18, 2017, 09:01:46 PM
Quote from: JJBers on July 18, 2017, 03:41:15 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 18, 2017, 02:35:28 PM
oops, ment I-84.
How do you get I-84 confused with I-287
I honestly have no clue.
Well, that's fine then...so what makes you pick I-84?
North of that is more rual.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 21, 2017, 10:39:24 PM
Quote from: empirestate on July 18, 2017, 11:13:00 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 18, 2017, 09:01:46 PM
Quote from: JJBers on July 18, 2017, 03:41:15 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 18, 2017, 02:35:28 PM
oops, ment I-84.
How do you get I-84 confused with I-287
I honestly have no clue.
Well, that's fine then...so what makes you pick I-84?
North of that is more rual.
I was on I-84 today, and I've noticed that until the Middletown area, and then after the Hudson, that's true. In the area, it steers north
Quote from: 8.Lug on June 11, 2016, 03:30:37 PM
Upstate used to be everything that's not NYC, but people from out of state still don't know you're not from NYC (or very close to it) when you tell them you're from "upstate" and I think this has a lot to do with all the NYC-themed TV shows. Anytime TV shows refer to "upstate" it's always some county that's only a few miles (relatively) from NYC. Western-NY has seemed to come more into prominence to help people understand that we're not from NYC, we just pay all their bills.
http://www.rockinst.org/observations/wardr/2011
P00I
Quote from: 02 Park Ave on July 19, 2017, 02:13:21 PM
I think that Downstate is defined by where the cable TV systems carry NYC TV stations. People living in those areas are New York City oriented; the people in the remainder of the state are not. This is more of a cultural definition than using a certain highway as the boundry or even using Metro North. It would also even devide certain counties, especially on the west side of the river.
That is pretty consistent with my Upstate/Downstate definition: The 845/518 and 845/607 area code being the northern limits
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 21, 2017, 10:39:24 PM
Quote from: empirestate on July 18, 2017, 11:13:00 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 18, 2017, 09:01:46 PM
Quote from: JJBers on July 18, 2017, 03:41:15 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 18, 2017, 02:35:28 PM
oops, ment I-84.
How do you get I-84 confused with I-287
I honestly have no clue.
Well, that's fine then...so what makes you pick I-84?
North of that is more rual.
Not necessarily; I live in western Putnam County, which is much less densely populated than the areas immediately north of me in Dutchess County, on the other side of I-84. Indeed, there's quite a long stretch of pretty dense suburbia stretching from I-84 clear on up to, and beyond, Poughkeepsie.
But that's OK; I'm actually more interested in what the factors are than where the line is. So, if being rural is what defines a place as Upstate, you've got the obvious issue that Buffalo, Rochester and the other northern cities would then not count as Upstate, and I think you'd have a hard time finding agreement about that!
Quote from: ParrDa on July 21, 2017, 02:50:00 PM
That's what I'm saying. You can certainly draw a line for each criterion alone. But when combined, it's no longer possible due to the resulting "haze" or gray area where one criterion works and another doesn't. I guess I'm thinking of the terms as relative. I personally wouldn't have said there was specific regions - if that was the case, wouldn't a boundary have been established centuries ago?
Yeah, it looks like you simply don't share the presumption that the terms are both relative and specific. And like I say, that's perfectly fine; it just means there isn't really anything for you in this thread, since this thread deals expressly with the
specific use of the terms.
(A boundary wouldn't have been established centuries ago, no. There was nothing in New York other than the Dutch colonies–nothing elsewhere to define as "upstate"!)
QuoteYes; but liquor laws (or any state laws) won't vary between upstate and downstate, so are somewhat irrelevant. I was thinking more along the lines of house prices/taxes/etc, things that could also vary across county or regional boundaries and are therefore applicable.
Sure; and those sorts of differences certainly exist as well. More subtle, perhaps, but you could find those lines if you took the time to chart them out.
QuoteNow, I think I've said my fair share. And I'm not going to start hashing out a dividing line; I'll leave that to those of you with more experience. Good luck :biggrin:
Oh, it's not so much a matter of experience. You've simply got to believe! ;-)
We could also define Upstate as counties that don't pay into the MTA. The 5 New York City counties, Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester, Rockland, Putnam, Orange and Dutchess pay into the MTA. While this line isn't too bad west of the Hudson, northern Dutchess (Rhinebeck, Red Hook, etc.) is generally considered Upstate and I would agree with that. You could argue about where the line falls in Orange as well, as NW Orange County is arguably Upstate.
Quote from: ParrDa on July 22, 2017, 05:54:47 PM
^ I'll accept that. But I will also note that in over seven pages of hashing this out, no real conclusions have been reached. So does that in and of itself not call into question the existence of specific regions? Who gets to determine where the regions are? Someone from Manhattan? Or the North Country? Or Buffalo?
To me, using the word "specific" infers that you already know approximately where the boundary is... and that begins to seem like circular logic.
Again, not denying the existence of regions, just noting that if they do exist, there should without question be an obvious consensus as to their general whereabouts :D Which... there isn't, after over 150 replies.
There certainly isn't, but there isn't any consensus
against specificity, either. I think you're the only one who's written at any length about that view; the vast majority of times, it simply seems that people answer only the first part of the question and never address the second, more important part.
Quote from: cl94 on July 22, 2017, 06:16:24 PM
We could also define Upstate as counties that don't pay into the MTA. The 5 New York City counties, Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester, Rockland, Putnam, Orange and Dutchess pay into the MTA. While this line isn't too bad west of the Hudson, northern Dutchess (Rhinebeck, Red Hook, etc.) is generally considered Upstate and I would agree with that. You could argue about where the line falls in Orange as well, as NW Orange County is arguably Upstate.
Yes, that would be the MCTD I've mentioned throughout.
iPhone
Quote from: cl94 on July 22, 2017, 06:16:24 PM
While this line isn't too bad west of the Hudson, northern Dutchess (Rhinebeck, Red Hook, etc.) is generally considered Upstate and I would agree with that.
My parents wouldn't consider those to be upstate. Just goes to show how little agreement there really is.
Continuing with thel 42nd parallel thing, if it's considered the divide then California is downstate and Oregon is upstate :sombrero:.
Quote from: ParrDa on July 25, 2017, 05:44:14 PM
Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on July 25, 2017, 03:44:48 AM
Continuing with thel 42nd parallel thing, if it's considered the divide then California is downstate and Oregon is upstate :sombrero:.
I don't really have to edit my post, do I?
We all know I meant stop drawing the line when you get to Connecticut...
Uhhhh...wrong side
Quote from: JJBers on July 26, 2017, 10:02:58 AM
Quote from: ParrDa on July 25, 2017, 05:44:14 PM
Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on July 25, 2017, 03:44:48 AM
Continuing with thel 42nd parallel thing, if it's considered the divide then California is downstate and Oregon is upstate :sombrero:.
I don't really have to edit my post, do I?
We all know I meant stop drawing the line when you get to Connecticut...
Uhhhh...wrong side
Also, Pennsylvania's insistence on a piece of Lake Erie means that you stop drawing the line before you reach the end of Pennsylvania.
Quote from: JJBers on July 26, 2017, 10:02:58 AM
Quote from: ParrDa on July 25, 2017, 05:44:14 PM
Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on July 25, 2017, 03:44:48 AM
Continuing with the 42nd parallel thing, if it's considered the divide then California is downstate and Oregon is upstate :sombrero:.
I don't really have to edit my post, do I?
We all know I meant stop drawing the line when you get to Connecticut...
Uhhhh...wrong side
Earlier I extended on that side all the way to my area (which happens to be crossed by the 42nd parallel). I did it as a joke.
Upstate is like Uptown. In Manhattan Uptown is not only the area above 59th Street, but a directional move either on the subway or street. So if you go from 14th Street to 34th Street you are traveling uptown even though you are not arriving there.
So going upstate from New York could mean a drive to Tarrytown or Peekskill or even Poughkeepsie. Or even going from Beacon to Poughkeepsie or from Newburgh to Kingston on the Thruway.
It is more than just a region but a point of direction just like uptown and downtown in the big city.
Quote from: roadman65 on July 27, 2017, 11:42:31 AM
Upstate is like Uptown. In Manhattan Uptown is not only the area above 59th Street, but a directional move either on the subway or street. So if you go from 14th Street to 34th Street you are traveling uptown even though you are not arriving there.
So going upstate from New York could mean a drive to Tarrytown or Peekskill or even Poughkeepsie. Or even going from Beacon to Poughkeepsie or from Newburgh to Kingston on the Thruway.
It is more than just a region but a point of direction just like uptown and downtown in the big city.
Uptown and Downtown are also directions in The Bronx subways.
STV100-2
Quote from: roadman65 on July 27, 2017, 11:42:31 AM
Upstate is like Uptown. In Manhattan Uptown is not only the area above 59th Street, but a directional move either on the subway or street. So if you go from 14th Street to 34th Street you are traveling uptown even though you are not arriving there.
So going upstate from New York could mean a drive to Tarrytown or Peekskill or even Poughkeepsie. Or even going from Beacon to Poughkeepsie or from Newburgh to Kingston on the Thruway.
It is more than just a region but a point of direction just like uptown and downtown in the big city.
That's very true. However, the question here deals only with the use of the term as a specific region. I'm asking how we define "Upstate NY" rather than the relative term "upstate"; a similar question might ask for the definition of "Northern California" even though we already know the definition of the relative term "north".
iPhone
Too bad its not like Delaware where you can split North, Central, and South by the three counties.
Anyway, I was pointing out how ambiguous the use of upstate is. I think you won't get a real definition as everyone has their own opinion as stated here.
Quote from: roadman65 on July 28, 2017, 12:34:58 PM
Too bad its not like Delaware where you can split North, Central, and South by the three counties.
Anyway, I was pointing out how ambiguous the use of upstate is. I think you won't get a real definition as everyone has their own opinion as stated here.
On the contrary,
I've got a definition already. I was wondering whether other people had their own definitions, whether they differ from my own, and whether they can be reconciled into one widely agreed-upon definition. But so far, it looks as if few people have such a specific definition, so there's really isn't much to reconcile. Among those who do accept that there's a definable "Upstate" region, my definition seems to hold up as sound as any!
So...
What's the closest thing we have to a consensus as to what "Upstate" New York is?
Quote from: freebrickproductions on July 31, 2017, 02:16:41 AM
So...
What's the closest thing we have to a consensus as to what "Upstate" New York is?
I was just thinking that. So far, I think we have the following criteria:
-Not served by Metro North
-Not part of the MCTD
-Not served by the NYC media market
-Not typically visited for weekend trips by NYC-area residents
-Marked by an accent/dialect akin to that of the Midwest rather than NYC
-Reflects the culture established by settlement patterns extending westward from New England, rather than originating from the Dutch colonies
Have I missed any major ones? (We have a few people who have said simply that Upstate isn't urban, but that's really hard to reconcile with the location of most of the state's largest cities. Another poster said that Upstate refers to the suburbs of NYC that are directly tied to it economically, which is incompatible with almost everyone else's definition.)
Quote from: empirestate on July 31, 2017, 10:02:44 AM
Quote from: freebrickproductions on July 31, 2017, 02:16:41 AM
So...
What's the closest thing we have to a consensus as to what "Upstate" New York is?
I was just thinking that. So far, I think we have the following criteria:
-Not served by Metro North
-Not part of the MCTD
-Not served by the NYC media market
-Not typically visited for weekend trips by NYC-area residents
-Marked by an accent/dialect akin to that of the Midwest rather than NYC
-Reflects the culture established by settlement patterns extending westward from New England, rather than originating from the Dutch colonies
Have I missed any major ones? (We have a few people who have said simply that Upstate isn't urban, but that's really hard to reconcile with the location of most of the state's largest cities. Another poster said that Upstate refers to the suburbs of NYC that are directly tied to it economically, which is incompatible with almost everyone else's definition.)
Would be great to add vote counts to these.... I actually thought about combining results as a function of distance along I-87. Usually combination would result in some flavor of bell shaped curve, showing both range of opinions and some sort of average.
Quote from: kalvado on July 31, 2017, 10:30:34 AM
Quote from: empirestate on July 31, 2017, 10:02:44 AM
Quote from: freebrickproductions on July 31, 2017, 02:16:41 AM
So...
What's the closest thing we have to a consensus as to what "Upstate" New York is?
I was just thinking that. So far, I think we have the following criteria:
-Not served by Metro North
-Not part of the MCTD
-Not served by the NYC media market
-Not typically visited for weekend trips by NYC-area residents
-Marked by an accent/dialect akin to that of the Midwest rather than NYC
-Reflects the culture established by settlement patterns extending westward from New England, rather than originating from the Dutch colonies
Have I missed any major ones? (We have a few people who have said simply that Upstate isn't urban, but that's really hard to reconcile with the location of most of the state's largest cities. Another poster said that Upstate refers to the suburbs of NYC that are directly tied to it economically, which is incompatible with almost everyone else's definition.)
Would be great to add vote counts to these.... I actually thought about combining results as a function of distance along I-87. Usually combination would result in some flavor of bell shaped curve, showing both range of opinions and some sort of average.
I tried, but it doesn't appear that I can allow multiple options to be selected in a poll.
Geez, that is one complex definition of a area that's gonna shrink in a couple decades.
Quote from: JJBers on July 31, 2017, 05:07:09 PM
Geez, that is one complex definition of a area that's gonna shrink in a couple decades.
That's not a definition, that's just a list of the criteria we have so far. Our task is to resolve those criteria into a single definition; not all of them may ultimately make the cut.
Quote from: empirestate on July 31, 2017, 10:02:44 AM
-Not typically visited for weekend trips by NYC-area residents
This one seems like an outlier from the rest and not a good criteria for defining upstate. I bet many NYC-area residents take weekend trips to Lake George; no one can deny that this is upstate.
Quote from: spooky on August 01, 2017, 09:14:50 AM
Quote from: empirestate on July 31, 2017, 10:02:44 AM
-Not typically visited for weekend trips by NYC-area residents
This one seems like an outlier from the rest and not a good criteria for defining upstate. I bet many NYC-area residents take weekend trips to Lake George; no one can deny that this is upstate.
True, and they also have traditionally visited the Berkshires and the Jersey Shore, which aren't even in New York. Still, there is some small influence that is apparent in the Catskill and Shawangunk regions that seems to tie it somehow to Downstate. For me, traveling east on NY 17, I start to get that feeling even as early as Hancock. I wonder if there's a better way to put that into words (even if it doesn't make the eventual list of criteria)?
We are arguing here over stuff that don't really do nothing for anything. Who cares if Alba y is Downstate or Upstate. What difference does it make?
Quote from: roadman65 on August 01, 2017, 08:57:53 PM
We are arguing here over stuff that don't really do nothing for anything. Who cares if Alba y is Downstate or Upstate. What difference does it make?
What difference does it need to make? Were you under the impression that the discussions on this forum are in some way consequential?
iPhone
Quote from: empirestate on August 01, 2017, 10:00:29 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 01, 2017, 08:57:53 PM
We are arguing here over stuff that don't really do nothing for anything. Who cares if Alba y is Downstate or Upstate. What difference does it make?
What difference does it need to make? Were you under the impression that the discussions on this forum are in some way consequential?
fump truck
They matter very much. If we don't speak out against FritzOwlDOT's proposals, then entire cities, mountains, national parks, and coastlines will be destroyed by freeways.
Quote from: roadman65 on August 01, 2017, 08:57:53 PM
We are arguing here over stuff that don't really do nothing for anything. Who cares if Alba y is Downstate or Upstate. What difference does it make?
You must be fun at parties.
I'd say just about everything east of Syracuse and north of I-90.
Quote from: ParrDa on August 02, 2017, 10:41:50 PM
Quote from: csw on August 02, 2017, 10:35:33 PM
I'd say just about everything east of Syracuse and north of I-90.
That creates a rather funny shape... and I assume you mean west?
um...no...
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FC34JLxJ.png&hash=5d6fd774bef5461d314e2548d7b1a6a60938d83a)
this is what I meant
Between Rochester and Syracuse would be in the Finger Lakes region, and west of Rochester is Western NY.
I've only been to New York State once so I'll qualify all of my statements with that
Quote from: csw on August 03, 2017, 07:50:50 AM
Between Rochester and Syracuse would be in the Finger Lakes region, and west of Rochester is Western NY.
I've only been to New York State once so I'll qualify all of my statements with that
Well, if you prefer to go by regions - area you show on a map is pretty much Adirondacks (Adirondack mountains, Adirondack park). Pretty much everyone would agree that this is as upstate as it is humanly possible, but limiting upstate to that region is.. Well, even I would say that definition is too strict - and my definition of upstate is probably the narrowest one within this thread.
For example, there is also Catskill region (once again, lookup catskill mountains or catskill park - although park is a smaller one, not covering entire area) which most people would still accept as upstate..
Quote from: csw on August 02, 2017, 10:35:33 PM
I'd say just about everything east of Syracuse and north of I-90.
Uh, upstate new york is everything north of the NYC metro area.
Quote from: csw on August 02, 2017, 10:35:33 PM
I'd say just about everything east of Syracuse and north of I-90.
OK, why? What's different about day-to-day life on different sides of that boundary?
Quote from: csw on August 03, 2017, 07:50:50 AM
Between Rochester and Syracuse would be in the Finger Lakes region, and west of Rochester is Western NY.
So, Western NY and the Finger Lakes are Downstate? That's the boundary we're examining here.
Quote from: empirestate on August 03, 2017, 09:46:26 AM
Quote from: csw on August 03, 2017, 07:50:50 AM
Between Rochester and Syracuse would be in the Finger Lakes region, and west of Rochester is Western NY.
So, Western NY and the Finger Lakes are Downstate? That's the boundary we're examining here.
He seems to have some regions that are neither Upstate nor Downstate.
When my dad lived in Gouverneur he defined Albany as the divide and like father like son, the southern Albany metro area is downstate, north and a little bit to the west is upstate. East, well that's a whole 'nother country.
Quote from: CapeCodder on August 03, 2017, 01:25:33 PM
When my dad lived in Gouverneur he defined Albany as the divide and like father like son, the southern Albany metro area is downstate, north and a little bit to the west is upstate. East, well that's a whole 'nother country.
I lived in Ulster County for 10+ years, definitely Upstate; anything north of Rockland and Westchester, is Upstate, really. North and west of Sullivan, Greene and Columbia counties are *not* Upstate; that's a whole other region; either the Southern Tier or the Capitol Region/Central NY.
P00I
Quote from: Otto Yamamoto on August 03, 2017, 03:17:38 PM
Quote from: CapeCodder on August 03, 2017, 01:25:33 PM
When my dad lived in Gouverneur he defined Albany as the divide and like father like son, the southern Albany metro area is downstate, north and a little bit to the west is upstate. East, well that's a whole 'nother country.
I lived in Ulster County for 10+ years, definitely Upstate; anything north of Rockland and Westchester, is Upstate, really. North and west of Sullivan, Greene and Columbia counties are *not* Upstate; that's a whole other region; either the Southern Tier or the Capitol Region/Central NY.
P00I
Well, Ulster is pretty much downstate for me...
The most interesting thing is that some people consider anything above Westchester to be Upstate, yet you have Downstate Correctional Facility along the side of I-84 in Fishkill in Dutchess County.
Quote from: CapeCodder on August 03, 2017, 01:25:33 PM
When my dad lived in Gouverneur he defined Albany as the divide and like father like son, the southern Albany metro area is downstate, north and a little bit to the west is upstate. East, well that's a whole 'nother country.
Bethlehem is Downstate? Ridiculous.
If the residents of an area are NYC oriented, it's Downstate; if they aren't, it's Upstate. That is what is different about their day-to-day life. That is the only thing that differentiates Upstaters from Downstaters.
If the residents of an area drink Pop they are in Western New York; if they drink Soda they aren't.
Quote from: Rothman on August 03, 2017, 05:57:13 PM
Quote from: CapeCodder on August 03, 2017, 01:25:33 PM
When my dad lived in Gouverneur he defined Albany as the divide and like father like son, the southern Albany metro area is downstate, north and a little bit to the west is upstate. East, well that's a whole 'nother country.
Bethlehem is Downstate? Ridiculous.
Bethleham is not even in North America.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 03, 2017, 07:51:12 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 03, 2017, 05:57:13 PM
Quote from: CapeCodder on August 03, 2017, 01:25:33 PM
When my dad lived in Gouverneur he defined Albany as the divide and like father like son, the southern Albany metro area is downstate, north and a little bit to the west is upstate. East, well that's a whole 'nother country.
Bethlehem is Downstate? Ridiculous.
Bethleham is not even in North America.
By that logic, neither is Boston.
Quote from: csw on August 03, 2017, 07:58:45 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 03, 2017, 07:51:12 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 03, 2017, 05:57:13 PM
Quote from: CapeCodder on August 03, 2017, 01:25:33 PM
When my dad lived in Gouverneur he defined Albany as the divide and like father like son, the southern Albany metro area is downstate, north and a little bit to the west is upstate. East, well that's a whole 'nother country.
Bethlehem is Downstate? Ridiculous.
Bethleham is not even in North America.
By that logic, neither is Boston.
But Rome and Amsterdam are definitely upstate, as well as Poland. Not so sure about Greece some say it is too far west..
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 03, 2017, 07:51:12 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 03, 2017, 05:57:13 PM
Quote from: CapeCodder on August 03, 2017, 01:25:33 PM
When my dad lived in Gouverneur he defined Albany as the divide and like father like son, the southern Albany metro area is downstate, north and a little bit to the west is upstate. East, well that's a whole 'nother country.
Bethlehem is Downstate? Ridiculous.
Bethleham is not even in North America.
Ever hear of Bethlehem, PA?
Quote from: 02 Park Ave on August 03, 2017, 06:15:26 PM
If the residents of an area are NYC oriented, it's Downstate; if they aren't, it's Upstate. That is what is different about their day-to-day life. That is the only thing that differentiates Upstaters from Downstaters.
Are there any signs of being NYC-oriented we haven't touched upon yet?
Newspapers have not been mentioned yet. Perhaps Albany Times Union availability could be incorporated into the definition of Upstateness.
Quote from: CapeCodder on August 03, 2017, 01:25:33 PM
When my dad lived in Gouverneur he defined Albany as the divide and like father like son, the southern Albany metro area is downstate, north and a little bit to the west is upstate. East, well that's a whole 'nother country.
No it's not, that's Massachusetts. :bigass:
Quote from: TravelingBethelite on August 04, 2017, 04:37:13 PM
Quote from: CapeCodder on August 03, 2017, 01:25:33 PM
When my dad lived in Gouverneur he defined Albany as the divide and like father like son, the southern Albany metro area is downstate, north and a little bit to the west is upstate. East, well that's a whole 'nother country.
No it's not, that's Massachusetts. :bigass:
Or Vermont
Quote from: TravelingBethelite on August 04, 2017, 04:37:13 PM
Quote from: CapeCodder on August 03, 2017, 01:25:33 PM
When my dad lived in Gouverneur he defined Albany as the divide and like father like son, the southern Albany metro area is downstate, north and a little bit to the west is upstate. East, well that's a whole 'nother country.
No it's not, that's Massachusetts. :bigass:
Was referring to the east side of the Hudson, not MA or VT. I should have been more specific.
Quote from: CapeCodder on August 04, 2017, 05:14:11 PM
Quote from: TravelingBethelite on August 04, 2017, 04:37:13 PM
Quote from: CapeCodder on August 03, 2017, 01:25:33 PM
When my dad lived in Gouverneur he defined Albany as the divide and like father like son, the southern Albany metro area is downstate, north and a little bit to the west is upstate. East, well that's a whole 'nother country.
No it's not, that's Massachusetts. :bigass:
Was referring to the east side of the Hudson, not MA or VT. I should have been more specific.
I think they were joking.
Quote from: CapeCodder on August 04, 2017, 05:14:11 PM
Quote from: TravelingBethelite on August 04, 2017, 04:37:13 PM
Quote from: CapeCodder on August 03, 2017, 01:25:33 PM
When my dad lived in Gouverneur he defined Albany as the divide and like father like son, the southern Albany metro area is downstate, north and a little bit to the west is upstate. East, well that's a whole 'nother country.
No it's not, that's Massachusetts. :bigass:
Was referring to the east side of the Hudson, not MA or VT. I should have been more specific.
Still accurate, though. NY frequently takes on the character of its bordering states.
I have heard this, but even along NY 22, it still feels different than in MA. I don't think the borders bleed that much.
I always thought that the Taconics were the gateway to the Berkshires. Past the TSP and it seems like you're in MA.
Quote from: empirestate on August 04, 2017, 11:51:23 PM
Quote from: CapeCodder on August 04, 2017, 05:14:11 PM
Quote from: TravelingBethelite on August 04, 2017, 04:37:13 PM
Quote from: CapeCodder on August 03, 2017, 01:25:33 PM
When my dad lived in Gouverneur he defined Albany as the divide and like father like son, the southern Albany metro area is downstate, north and a little bit to the west is upstate. East, well that's a whole 'nother country.
No it's not, that's Massachusetts. :bigass:
Was referring to the east side of the Hudson, not MA or VT. I should have been more specific.
Still accurate, though. NY frequently takes on the character of its bordering states.
Yeah, Clinton, Essex, and Franklin Counties definitely feel like West Vermont. I'd also argue that Albany feels more similar to Springfield or Worcester than it does Syracuse, Rochester or Buffalo as well. The fact that Albany is a city prevents its northern suburbs from taking on TOO much of a Vermont feel but it's really noticeable as you drive up the Northway.
Quote from: empirestate on August 03, 2017, 09:53:11 PM
Quote from: 02 Park Ave on August 03, 2017, 06:15:26 PM
If the residents of an area are NYC oriented, it's Downstate; if they aren't, it's Upstate. That is what is different about their day-to-day life. That is the only thing that differentiates Upstaters from Downstaters.
Are there any signs of being NYC-oriented we haven't touched upon yet?
If we are operating on the notion that a NYC-oriented area is classified as Downstate, then by technicality Fairfield (and parts of New Haven) County, Connecticut, as well as Bergen, Essex, Hudson, (parts of) Passaic, and Hudson Counties, New Jersey are Downstate New York! Hell, we could classify the whole world as being downstate as the UN is headquartered in Manhattan, NYC. :bigass: (Before you lecture me, yes, I know the United Nations building sits on "international" land...)
Quote from: TravelingBethelite on August 05, 2017, 03:01:33 PM
Quote from: empirestate on August 03, 2017, 09:53:11 PM
Quote from: 02 Park Ave on August 03, 2017, 06:15:26 PM
If the residents of an area are NYC oriented, it's Downstate; if they aren't, it's Upstate. That is what is different about their day-to-day life. That is the only thing that differentiates Upstaters from Downstaters.
Are there any signs of being NYC-oriented we haven't touched upon yet?
If we are operating on the notion that a NYC-oriented area is classified as Downstate, then by technicality Fairfield (and parts of New Haven) County, Connecticut, as well as Bergen, Essex, Hudson, (parts of) Passaic, and Hudson Counties, New Jersey are Downstate New York! Hell, we could classify the whole world as being downstate as the UN is headquartered in Manhattan, NYC. :bigass: (Before you lecture me, yes, I know the United Nations building sits on "international" land...)
Most New Englanders will tell you that Fairfield County, CT is not apart of New England. Downstate NY can have them!
Quote from: The Nature Boy on August 05, 2017, 03:08:52 PM
Quote from: TravelingBethelite on August 05, 2017, 03:01:33 PM
Quote from: empirestate on August 03, 2017, 09:53:11 PM
Quote from: 02 Park Ave on August 03, 2017, 06:15:26 PM
If the residents of an area are NYC oriented, it's Downstate; if they aren't, it's Upstate. That is what is different about their day-to-day life. That is the only thing that differentiates Upstaters from Downstaters.
Are there any signs of being NYC-oriented we haven't touched upon yet?
If we are operating on the notion that a NYC-oriented area is classified as Downstate, then by technicality Fairfield (and parts of New Haven) County, Connecticut, as well as Bergen, Essex, Hudson, (parts of) Passaic, and Hudson Counties, New Jersey are Downstate New York! Hell, we could classify the whole world as being downstate as the UN is headquartered in Manhattan, NYC. :bigass: (Before you lecture me, yes, I know the United Nations building sits on "international" land...)
Most New Englanders will tell you that Fairfield County, CT is not apart of New England. Downstate NY can have them!
Living in Fairfield County, I utmostly agree. You definitely notice the culture shift when you cross the Housatonic (specifically, north of the Shelton area). I must admit though, despite having lived here all my life, I feel more like a New Englander at heart, and less a New Yorker. (I have had the sad distinction of being the only Pats/Red Sox fan in my school for at least 5 years straight...God, I still hate the ending of Super Bowl XLII!)
Quote from: TravelingBethelite on August 05, 2017, 03:01:33 PM
Quote from: empirestate on August 03, 2017, 09:53:11 PM
Quote from: 02 Park Ave on August 03, 2017, 06:15:26 PM
If the residents of an area are NYC oriented, it's Downstate; if they aren't, it's Upstate. That is what is different about their day-to-day life. That is the only thing that differentiates Upstaters from Downstaters.
Are there any signs of being NYC-oriented we haven't touched upon yet?
If we are operating on the notion that a NYC-oriented area is classified as Downstate, then by technicality Fairfield (and parts of New Haven) County, Connecticut, as well as Bergen, Essex, Hudson, (parts of) Passaic, and Hudson Counties, New Jersey are Downstate New York! Hell, we could classify the whole world as being downstate as the UN is headquartered in Manhattan, NYC. :bigass: (Before you lecture me, yes, I know the United Nations building sits on "international" land...)
If you will, there are 2 different entities: state of New York, legally defined as certain area on a map - a very strict definition; and New York City metropolitan area, which also has some definition from Census - but that definition being more lousy and open for discussion. I would say that intersection of these areas is a Downstate, at least most of discussion is focused on demarcation of NYC area. Including out of NY state areas is fun... But does little good towards upstate-downstate discussion
Quote from: TravelingBethelite on August 05, 2017, 03:56:23 PM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on August 05, 2017, 03:08:52 PM
Quote from: TravelingBethelite on August 05, 2017, 03:01:33 PM
Quote from: empirestate on August 03, 2017, 09:53:11 PM
Quote from: 02 Park Ave on August 03, 2017, 06:15:26 PM
If the residents of an area are NYC oriented, it's Downstate; if they aren't, it's Upstate. That is what is different about their day-to-day life. That is the only thing that differentiates Upstaters from Downstaters.
Are there any signs of being NYC-oriented we haven't touched upon yet?
If we are operating on the notion that a NYC-oriented area is classified as Downstate, then by technicality Fairfield (and parts of New Haven) County, Connecticut, as well as Bergen, Essex, Hudson, (parts of) Passaic, and Hudson Counties, New Jersey are Downstate New York! Hell, we could classify the whole world as being downstate as the UN is headquartered in Manhattan, NYC. :bigass: (Before you lecture me, yes, I know the United Nations building sits on "international" land...)
Most New Englanders will tell you that Fairfield County, CT is not apart of New England. Downstate NY can have them!
Living in Fairfield County, I utmostly agree. You definitely notice the culture shift when you cross the Housatonic (specifically, north of the Shelton area). I must admit though, despite having lived here all my life, I feel more like a New Englander at heart, and less a New Yorker. (I have had the sad distinction of being the only Pats/Red Sox fan in my school for at least 5 years straight...God, I still hate the ending of Super Bowl XLII!)
I once had a landlord from Connecticut who was a Yankees/Pats fan. I forgot where in the state he was from.
On the topic of "what is New England?" I dated a girl from eastern Long Island who tired to convince me that the eastern end of Long Island was New England in culture.
Quote from: TravelingBethelite on August 05, 2017, 03:56:23 PM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on August 05, 2017, 03:08:52 PM
Quote from: TravelingBethelite on August 05, 2017, 03:01:33 PM
Quote from: empirestate on August 03, 2017, 09:53:11 PM
Quote from: 02 Park Ave on August 03, 2017, 06:15:26 PM
If the residents of an area are NYC oriented, it's Downstate; if they aren't, it's Upstate. That is what is different about their day-to-day life. That is the only thing that differentiates Upstaters from Downstaters.
Are there any signs of being NYC-oriented we haven't touched upon yet?
If we are operating on the notion that a NYC-oriented area is classified as Downstate, then by technicality Fairfield (and parts of New Haven) County, Connecticut, as well as Bergen, Essex, Hudson, (parts of) Passaic, and Hudson Counties, New Jersey are Downstate New York! Hell, we could classify the whole world as being downstate as the UN is headquartered in Manhattan, NYC. :bigass: (Before you lecture me, yes, I know the United Nations building sits on "international" land...)
Most New Englanders will tell you that Fairfield County, CT is not apart of New England. Downstate NY can have them!
Living in Fairfield County, I utmostly agree. You definitely notice the culture shift when you cross the Housatonic (specifically, north of the Shelton area). I must admit though, despite having lived here all my life, I feel more like a New Englander at heart, and less a New Yorker. (I have had the sad distinction of being the only Pats/Red Sox fan in my school for at least 5 years straight...God, I still hate the ending of Super Bowl XLII!)
We will get revenge on the giants someday!
Quote from: The Nature Boy on August 05, 2017, 07:01:00 PM
Quote from: TravelingBethelite on August 05, 2017, 03:56:23 PM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on August 05, 2017, 03:08:52 PM
Quote from: TravelingBethelite on August 05, 2017, 03:01:33 PM
Quote from: empirestate on August 03, 2017, 09:53:11 PM
Quote from: 02 Park Ave on August 03, 2017, 06:15:26 PM
If the residents of an area are NYC oriented, it's Downstate; if they aren't, it's Upstate. That is what is different about their day-to-day life. That is the only thing that differentiates Upstaters from Downstaters.
Are there any signs of being NYC-oriented we haven't touched upon yet?
If we are operating on the notion that a NYC-oriented area is classified as Downstate, then by technicality Fairfield (and parts of New Haven) County, Connecticut, as well as Bergen, Essex, Hudson, (parts of) Passaic, and Hudson Counties, New Jersey are Downstate New York! Hell, we could classify the whole world as being downstate as the UN is headquartered in Manhattan, NYC. :bigass: (Before you lecture me, yes, I know the United Nations building sits on "international" land...)
Most New Englanders will tell you that Fairfield County, CT is not apart of New England. Downstate NY can have them!
Living in Fairfield County, I utmostly agree. You definitely notice the culture shift when you cross the Housatonic (specifically, north of the Shelton area). I must admit though, despite having lived here all my life, I feel more like a New Englander at heart, and less a New Yorker. (I have had the sad distinction of being the only Pats/Red Sox fan in my school for at least 5 years straight...God, I still hate the ending of Super Bowl XLII!)
I once had a landlord from Connecticut who was a Yankees/Pats fan. I forgot where in the state he was from.
On the topic of "what is New England?" I dated a girl from eastern Long Island who tired to convince me that the eastern end of Long Island was New England in culture.
Historically eastern Long Island was settled by people coming from Connecticut and Rhode Island. Western LI was Dutch.
But since the suburban growth on LI and remnants of " New England" are very hard to discern
Same with south Florida or Washington DC suburbs being "Southern"
LGMS428
Quote from: jwolfer on August 05, 2017, 11:12:06 PM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on August 05, 2017, 07:01:00 PM
Quote from: TravelingBethelite on August 05, 2017, 03:56:23 PM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on August 05, 2017, 03:08:52 PM
Quote from: TravelingBethelite on August 05, 2017, 03:01:33 PM
Quote from: empirestate on August 03, 2017, 09:53:11 PM
Quote from: 02 Park Ave on August 03, 2017, 06:15:26 PM
If the residents of an area are NYC oriented, it's Downstate; if they aren't, it's Upstate. That is what is different about their day-to-day life. That is the only thing that differentiates Upstaters from Downstaters.
Are there any signs of being NYC-oriented we haven't touched upon yet?
If we are operating on the notion that a NYC-oriented area is classified as Downstate, then by technicality Fairfield (and parts of New Haven) County, Connecticut, as well as Bergen, Essex, Hudson, (parts of) Passaic, and Hudson Counties, New Jersey are Downstate New York! Hell, we could classify the whole world as being downstate as the UN is headquartered in Manhattan, NYC. :bigass: (Before you lecture me, yes, I know the United Nations building sits on "international" land...)
Most New Englanders will tell you that Fairfield County, CT is not apart of New England. Downstate NY can have them!
Living in Fairfield County, I utmostly agree. You definitely notice the culture shift when you cross the Housatonic (specifically, north of the Shelton area). I must admit though, despite having lived here all my life, I feel more like a New Englander at heart, and less a New Yorker. (I have had the sad distinction of being the only Pats/Red Sox fan in my school for at least 5 years straight...God, I still hate the ending of Super Bowl XLII!)
I once had a landlord from Connecticut who was a Yankees/Pats fan. I forgot where in the state he was from.
On the topic of "what is New England?" I dated a girl from eastern Long Island who tired to convince me that the eastern end of Long Island was New England in culture.
Historically eastern Long Island was settled by people coming from Connecticut and Rhode Island. Western LI was Dutch.
But since the suburban growth on LI and remnants of " New England" are very hard to discern
Same with south Florida or Washington DC suburbs being "Southern"
LGMS428
South florida is southren, dc is not.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 05, 2017, 11:24:23 PM
Quote from: jwolfer on August 05, 2017, 11:12:06 PM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on August 05, 2017, 07:01:00 PM
Quote from: TravelingBethelite on August 05, 2017, 03:56:23 PM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on August 05, 2017, 03:08:52 PM
Quote from: TravelingBethelite on August 05, 2017, 03:01:33 PM
Quote from: empirestate on August 03, 2017, 09:53:11 PM
Quote from: 02 Park Ave on August 03, 2017, 06:15:26 PM
If the residents of an area are NYC oriented, it's Downstate; if they aren't, it's Upstate. That is what is different about their day-to-day life. That is the only thing that differentiates Upstaters from Downstaters.
Are there any signs of being NYC-oriented we haven't touched upon yet?
If we are operating on the notion that a NYC-oriented area is classified as Downstate, then by technicality Fairfield (and parts of New Haven) County, Connecticut, as well as Bergen, Essex, Hudson, (parts of) Passaic, and Hudson Counties, New Jersey are Downstate New York! Hell, we could classify the whole world as being downstate as the UN is headquartered in Manhattan, NYC. :bigass: (Before you lecture me, yes, I know the United Nations building sits on "international" land...)
Most New Englanders will tell you that Fairfield County, CT is not apart of New England. Downstate NY can have them!
Living in Fairfield County, I utmostly agree. You definitely notice the culture shift when you cross the Housatonic (specifically, north of the Shelton area). I must admit though, despite having lived here all my life, I feel more like a New Englander at heart, and less a New Yorker. (I have had the sad distinction of being the only Pats/Red Sox fan in my school for at least 5 years straight...God, I still hate the ending of Super Bowl XLII!)
I once had a landlord from Connecticut who was a Yankees/Pats fan. I forgot where in the state he was from.
On the topic of "what is New England?" I dated a girl from eastern Long Island who tired to convince me that the eastern end of Long Island was New England in culture.
Historically eastern Long Island was settled by people coming from Connecticut and Rhode Island. Western LI was Dutch.
But since the suburban growth on LI and remnants of " New England" are very hard to discern
Same with south Florida or Washington DC suburbs being "Southern"
LGMS428
South florida is southren, dc is not.
Depending on who you ask, South Florida is either the 6th borough of New York City or 7th New England state.
As an aside, Southeast Florida largely wasn't settled until the 20th century and wasn't settled in large numbers until post-WWII. I'm not sure that South Florida was ever actually culturally "Southern" in the way that the rest of the state was.
Northern Virginia HAS a very distinct Southern heritage. DC's suburban growth has pretty much eradicated local Southern culture though. In my experience in NoVa, finding someone with deep Virginian roots is incredibly rare. Interestingly enough, the current US Senator from Maine, Angus King, IS from an old Virginia family and was raised in Alexandria.
Quote from: The Nature Boy on August 05, 2017, 11:46:25 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 05, 2017, 11:24:23 PM
Quote from: jwolfer on August 05, 2017, 11:12:06 PM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on August 05, 2017, 07:01:00 PM
Quote from: TravelingBethelite on August 05, 2017, 03:56:23 PM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on August 05, 2017, 03:08:52 PM
Quote from: TravelingBethelite on August 05, 2017, 03:01:33 PM
Quote from: empirestate on August 03, 2017, 09:53:11 PM
Quote from: 02 Park Ave on August 03, 2017, 06:15:26 PM
If the residents of an area are NYC oriented, it's Downstate; if they aren't, it's Upstate. That is what is different about their day-to-day life. That is the only thing that differentiates Upstaters from Downstaters.
Are there any signs of being NYC-oriented we haven't touched upon yet?
If we are operating on the notion that a NYC-oriented area is classified as Downstate, then by technicality Fairfield (and parts of New Haven) County, Connecticut, as well as Bergen, Essex, Hudson, (parts of) Passaic, and Hudson Counties, New Jersey are Downstate New York! Hell, we could classify the whole world as being downstate as the UN is headquartered in Manhattan, NYC. :bigass: (Before you lecture me, yes, I know the United Nations building sits on "international" land...)
Most New Englanders will tell you that Fairfield County, CT is not apart of New England. Downstate NY can have them!
Living in Fairfield County, I utmostly agree. You definitely notice the culture shift when you cross the Housatonic (specifically, north of the Shelton area). I must admit though, despite having lived here all my life, I feel more like a New Englander at heart, and less a New Yorker. (I have had the sad distinction of being the only Pats/Red Sox fan in my school for at least 5 years straight...God, I still hate the ending of Super Bowl XLII!)
I once had a landlord from Connecticut who was a Yankees/Pats fan. I forgot where in the state he was from.
On the topic of "what is New England?" I dated a girl from eastern Long Island who tired to convince me that the eastern end of Long Island was New England in culture.
Historically eastern Long Island was settled by people coming from Connecticut and Rhode Island. Western LI was Dutch.
But since the suburban growth on LI and remnants of " New England" are very hard to discern
Same with south Florida or Washington DC suburbs being "Southern"
LGMS428
South florida is southren, dc is not.
Depending on who you ask, South Florida is either the 6th borough of New York City or 7th New England state.
As an aside, Southeast Florida largely wasn't settled until the 20th century and wasn't settled in large numbers until post-WWII. I'm not sure that South Florida was ever actually culturally "Southern" in the way that the rest of the state was.
Northern Virginia HAS a very distinct Southern heritage. DC's suburban growth has pretty much eradicated local Southern culture though. In my experience in NoVa, finding someone with deep Virginian roots is incredibly rare. Interestingly enough, the current US Senator from Maine, Angus King, IS from an old Virginia family and was raised in Alexandria.
Exactly Robert E Lee's home was Arlington, he commanded the Army of Northern Virginia.. Even Maryland was culturally Southern.
Miami was founded in 1896. Its all new. In the 1930s and 40s it was more of a "Southern" city away from the beach. Just proportionally a lot more recent transplants from other Southern states not native Floridians.
Orlando was Deep South until the 1960s/70s. Jacksonville still is Southern for the most part.
LGMS428
Quote from: CapeCodder on August 05, 2017, 09:18:12 AM
I always thought that the Taconics were the gateway to the Berkshires. Past the TSP and it seems like you're in MA.
Nah. Places like Petersburg and Austerlitz still feel like NY rather than MA. Somehow, MA does old and quaint well, whereas NY does old and...how-on-Earth-does-that-place-stay-up?
Quote from: The Nature Boy on August 05, 2017, 07:01:00 PM
On the topic of "what is New England?" I dated a girl from eastern Long Island who tired to convince me that the eastern end of Long Island was New England in culture.
And I quite agree with her; it's another way in which areas of NYS tend to resemble its neighbors. (You'll also notice that both Rockland County and Staten Island resemble New Jersey, while the eastern parts of Westchester and Putnam look much like Connecticut.)
As for Long Island, its eastern settlements do indeed share much with New England, both having roots in the whaling and shipbuilding industries, for example. However, it's also been observed that while Long Island's north shore does recall Connecticut or Rhode Island across the sound, its southern shore also closely resembles the mid-Atlantic coast of Maryland or Delaware.
What? As someone who works with people from all around the state, Albany and Rockland are nothing alike.
If anything, the post shows the danger of misperceptions just from a quick road trip.
Quote from: ParrDa on September 05, 2017, 08:55:23 PM
I wasnt inferring they were alike. I didnt even go through albany. I was just commenting that the area had way more of a nyc "vibe" than i expected, as in, it felt more like the Catskills or Rockland than say old forge. Which I thought was surprising.
I can see that, in a way. One possible explanation is that Saratoga/Lake George was a playground for Albany just as the Catskill were for NYC, and both cities are about equally old. But another, perhaps more likely, possibility is that there are just a lot of people from the NYC area hanging around Lake George these days. :-)
I still don't see how anything around Albany or Saratoga or Lake George could have a NYC vibe. To me, there are striking differences, which is quite evident as Upstaters stick out like sore thumbs in the City. :D
Of course, some upstate hipsters would love to be mistaken for City people...
...but they usually aren't. :D
I can see where some of these thoughts come from. Like the Rockland/Orange/Catskills area, there is a continuous urbanized area all the way from Albany though Lake George (following the Northway, it ends there, but following NY 9N, it continues to Bolton Landing). Plus many people from NYC vacation there. And the Northway doesn't really become scenic until north of there. Lake George itself is a resort town through and through.
And, of course, no Wegmans for over a hundred miles (actually, this will soon be something that differentiates Albany from the lower Hudson Valley!).
I wouldn't call the Capital District downstate, but it is definitely more different from Rochester/Buffalo/Syracuse than those cities are from each other.
Quote from: ParrDa on September 06, 2017, 08:02:14 PM
Quote from: vdeane on September 06, 2017, 01:25:23 PM
I wouldn't call the Capital District downstate, but it is definitely more different from Rochester/Buffalo/Syracuse than those cities are from each other.
Right. That's what I was getting at, with the caveat that the Capital District is different because it has more of an east coast vibe (of which NYC is the ultimate source). So that presents a challenge when trying to group Albany and Buffalo together at the specific exclusion of NYC.
But Albany and Buffalo are different because of the tendency of New York cities to just adopt the traits of the neighboring state not because of any downstate/upstate distinction. If you go north of Albany on the Northway, you're basically in West Vermont.
Albany is more of an east coast city because three hours away from both New York City AND Boston.
Quote from: The Nature Boy on September 06, 2017, 10:29:50 PM
Quote from: ParrDa on September 06, 2017, 08:02:14 PM
Quote from: vdeane on September 06, 2017, 01:25:23 PM
I wouldn't call the Capital District downstate, but it is definitely more different from Rochester/Buffalo/Syracuse than those cities are from each other.
Right. That's what I was getting at, with the caveat that the Capital District is different because it has more of an east coast vibe (of which NYC is the ultimate source). So that presents a challenge when trying to group Albany and Buffalo together at the specific exclusion of NYC.
But Albany and Buffalo are different because of the tendency of New York cities to just adopt the traits of the neighboring state not because of any downstate/upstate distinction. If you go north of Albany on the Northway, you're basically in West Vermont.
Albany is more of an east coast city because three hours away from both New York City AND Boston.
Well, and also because it was settled during the colonial period, like other coastal cities. Buffalo, Rochester and others were founded after independence during the initial stages of westward expansion. You can still see that difference in the fabric of the city today.
The Northway is a section of the direct route connecting two major North American cities, viz. New York and Montreal, so one would expect a more cosmopolitan environment in its vicinity.
Quote from: 02 Park Ave on September 07, 2017, 11:21:33 AM
The Northway is a section of the direct route connecting two major North American cities, viz. New York and Montreal, so one would expect a more cosmopolitan environment in its vicinity.
Northway is pretty empty up there in Adirondack. Traffic viewer shows numbers of 6000 or so - compared to 100k+ across Mohawk. Significant part of it is local traffic, logging truck etc. NYC-Montreal is quite a drive, I doubt that it affects anything.
Northway is a road of heavy commute, with 100k+ daily traffic across Mohawk. It is almost the only road connecting northern suburbs to core cities (all other bridges combined probably have less capacity that single highway), and it is understood that people NEED to travel. 80-85 MPH on 55-65 MPH limit is normal even when police sitting there. And usual "it is only a few seconds difference!" does not apply when we're talking about 15-20-30 miles one way commute. Unfortunately local transportation commetee is old city-heavy, so they officially said there is no need for another bridge - but local bus authority, which moves single digit %% of commuters desperately needs more of those tens millions. I don't know what would happen if I-87 bridges get serious problem.
So - coming back to original question - it may be fair to draw upstate-downstate line along the city of Albany border. town of Colonie, which is a nearest suburb, is already different from old city....
Every state has its own character wherever you go. Florida is no different than NY. Go down to Miami and South Florida and its no longer the classic south, but more implants from Cuba and from the northern US. While many of Central Florida is transplants from NY, NJ, and MI with Latinos from South America. Ocala and rural north Florida have still natives with Southern accents and even Jacksonville, though people moving from the Northeast, still has the South Flavor, Then go to the Panhandle and you would not even think you live in Florida as it differs completely from the Peninsula. There its just like being in Alabama and the customs seem to be more like the state to their north.
I do not think you will have a correct answer for all of this by geography and culture is a different view of a regional name. The term is always where you are in the state IMO.
Quote from: CapeCodder on August 05, 2017, 09:18:12 AM
I always thought that the Taconics were the gateway to the Berkshires. Past the TSP and it seems like you're in MA.
By this logic, they're also the gateway to the Greens, since the Taconics reach as far north as Rutland.
Regarding the OP (and empirestate may be interested), one of our met students lives on the Dutchess/Columbia County line and identifies as Upstate.
Quote from: froggie on September 12, 2017, 10:15:25 AM
Quote from: CapeCodder on August 05, 2017, 09:18:12 AM
I always thought that the Taconics were the gateway to the Berkshires. Past the TSP and it seems like you're in MA.
By this logic, they're also the gateway to the Greens, since the Taconics reach as far north as Rutland.
Regarding the OP (and empirestate may be interested), one of our met students lives on the Dutchess/Columbia County line and identifies as Upstate.
No, Rutland is
in Taconics.
Even NYSDEC has an opinion: "During the spring, [turkey] season is open in all of upstate New York (north of the Bronx)..."
Quote from: Sam on October 01, 2017, 09:14:20 AM
Even NYSDEC has an opinion: "During the spring, [turkey] season is open in all of upstate New York (north of the Bronx)..."
Hmm, but is turkey season open because it's Upstate? Or is it Upstate because turkey season is open? :hmm:
Quote from: empirestate on October 01, 2017, 09:18:48 AM
Quote from: Sam on October 01, 2017, 09:14:20 AM
Even NYSDEC has an opinion: "During the spring, [turkey] season is open in all of upstate New York (north of the Bronx)..."
Hmm, but is turkey season open because it's Upstate? Or is it Upstate because turkey season is open? :hmm:
Maybe it's only open in that part of upstate that's north of the Bronx. That would simplify things.
The NYNJPA intends to rename Stewart International Airport in Orange County as "New York International Airport at Stewart". It looks like Downstate is encroaching on Upstate.
Anywhere that isn't within the NYC metro area.
Quote from: Hurricane Rex on February 19, 2018, 09:31:43 PM
Anywhere that isn't within the NYC metro area.
And how do you define the NYC metro area?
Quote from: 1 on February 19, 2018, 09:43:28 PM
Quote from: Hurricane Rex on February 19, 2018, 09:31:43 PM
Anywhere that isn't within the NYC metro area.
And how do you define the NYC metro area?
Anything south of I-84 (playing it large for development purposes, may be overkill)
And of course I still have spelling issues.
Quote from: Hurricane Rex on February 19, 2018, 09:31:43 PM
Anywhere that isn't within the NYC metro area.
I'm thinking you haven't really been following along with this thread... ;-)
Quote from: empirestate on February 19, 2018, 11:03:47 PM
Quote from: Hurricane Rex on February 19, 2018, 09:31:43 PM
Anywhere that isn't within the NYC metro area.
I'm thinking you haven't really been following along with this thread... ;-)
No I haven't I just thought I'd put my quick thoughts though.
LG-TP260
Quote from: Hurricane Rex on February 19, 2018, 11:12:30 PM
Quote from: empirestate on February 19, 2018, 11:03:47 PM
Quote from: Hurricane Rex on February 19, 2018, 09:31:43 PM
Anywhere that isn't within the NYC metro area.
I'm thinking you haven't really been following along with this thread... ;-)
No I haven't I just thought I'd put my quick thoughts though.
LG-TP260
Ah, OK. I'm just chuckling, because the whole point of the thread is to come up with tangible, real-life aspects that differentiate Upstate from downstate, as contrasted with just "quick thoughts". :-)
It has now been reported in the Times Record Herald that the airport's name will be changed to New York Stewart International Airport. The family won out!
Click-baity, but eminently relevant:
https://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/politics/albany/2018/04/10/11-maps-upstate-new-york-make-you-mad/502540002/
Quote from: empirestate on April 11, 2018, 12:48:59 PM
As I've said before, that first map is the way forward :-P
So, from "most of New York is upstate" to "most of New York is downstate", we have:
1. Anything that's not Manhattan
2. Upstate and Downstate have equal population, using the shortest line (land only) possible that satisfies this condition
3. Anything that's not New York City or Long Island
4. 41st parallel is the boundary
5. I-287 is the boundary
6. Area code 914 is downstate; area code 845 is upstate
7. Congressional districts 1-17 are downstate; 18-27 are upstate
8. Rockland and Westchester counties are downstate; anything north of that is upstate
9. ZIP codes 10001-11999 are downstate; 12000-14999 are upstate
10. I-84 is the boundary
11. Congressional districts 1-18 are downstate; 19-27 are upstate
12. Orange and Putnam counties are downstate; anything north of that is upstate
13. Anything that Metro-North touches is downstate
14. Sullivan, Ulster, and Dutchess counties are downstate; anything north of that is upstate
15. Area code 845 is downstate; anything north is upstate
16. 42nd parallel (CT/MA and NY/PA border)
17. Congressional districts 1-20 are downstate; 21-27 are upstate (this definition puts Albany downstate)
[Anything outside the state of New York is ignored, even if would fit into an above category.]
Quote from: 1 on April 12, 2018, 10:13:45 AM
[Anything outside the state of New York is ignored, even if would fit into an above category.]
This. Otherwise I'd claim per criteria #16 that I'm "upstate" and Zaragoza, Spain is "downstate" :sombrero:. #4 would put both of us "upstate".
Also, per criteria #10 most of Idaho would be "upstate", and the area South of US 30/former US 30S would be "downstate".
Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on April 12, 2018, 01:02:29 PM
Quote from: 1 on April 12, 2018, 10:13:45 AM
[Anything outside the state of New York is ignored, even if would fit into an above category.]
This. Otherwise I'd claim per criteria #16 that I'm "upstate" and Zaragoza, Spain is "downstate" :sombrero:. #4 would put both of us "upstate".
Also, per criteria #10 most of Idaho would be "upstate", and the area South of US 30/former US 30S would be "downstate".
And entire Spain is east of Mississippi river.. Oh well..
Quote from: webny99 on April 12, 2018, 09:37:49 AM
As I've said before, that first map is the way forward :-P
As arbitrary as it is, it does work out to be a fairly good approximation of the actual boundary–whatever that may be. For my purposes, though, it doesn't go far enough in particularizing the actual differences from one side of that imaginary line to the other; it's a good
description of where the boundary lies, but not a good
explanation of why it lies there.
For a similar example, looking toward the west along the actual NY/PA boundary, there is also a notable physiographic shift that happens to coincide with that line. You can describe the location of this shift by saying it falls along the NY/PA line, but the explanation for the shift is that the terrain changes from rounder hills and broader valley influenced primarily by glaciation, to bolder relief and narrower valleys shaped mainly by the erosion of stream waters.
Quote from: 1 on April 12, 2018, 10:13:45 AM
17. Congressional districts 1-20 are downstate; 21-27 are upstate (this definition puts Albany downstate)
I was actually surprised by how many of the maps still continue to claim Albany as downstate (and even a couple people on Facebook who I was discussing this with chose some of those maps). But then I thought again about the idea that Downstate encompasses the limits of Dutch settlement patterns from their colony at New Amsterdam, and remembered that Albany also shares an early Dutch heritage. I wonder if some people are feeling the Downstate vibe from Albany because of similarities it displays from that common heritage (subtle, but they're there)?
Still, New Amsterdam and Beverwijck were very far apart in their time and were outside each other's direct sphere of influence. Since the core meaning of "Upstate" is really "outside the influence of New York City", that excludes Albany by definition, even going back to the earliest days.
The battle rages on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/riley_ludwig/status/988541891242283013
Curious...there again is that idea that Upstate NY is only one of a number of non-NYC-centric regions. But I must say, having been raised and reared there since the late 70s, I never once heard it referred to that way by anyone actually from there. Is this a recent thing? Is it a regional thing; do people from one of the Upstate regions actually believe they're the only Upstate region? Or is this, maybe, people from non-Upstate regions trying to demonstrate their hipness by seeming to acknowledge the variegated nature of their state, but just not quite grasping it?
I, for one, have never thought of Western NY (or any other region outside the NYC metro) as separate from Upstate. Upstate is the all-encompassing "umbrella" term - by definition very nondescript and lacking specificity (and if this thread itself isn't evidence, I don't know what is :-D). Everything else is, by nature, a subset of either upstate or downstate. At least that's how I see it.
But perhaps folks in the North Country think they have exclusive rights to the term? Why this mindset would exist is beyond me, although I suppose it is the UPpermost portion of the state...
Overall, if you're going to use broad, open-ended terms like "up" and "down", you MUST do so with the premise that every location statewide fits into one or the other...
Eh, most of the "multiple regions" stuff is perpetuated by people in Buffalo and Rochester who get quite annoyed whenever you say that is Upstate. Of course, they're also the same people who think Albany is "downstate", so...
I think it's mainly Buffalo. I grew up in Rochester and never heard of the "multiple regions" stuff until college. Plus Rochester doesn't really fit into any region. It's not Western NY. It's not Central NY. It sometimes calls itself Finger Lakes, though the lakes are to the southeast and don't even enter Monroe County. It's Upstate and only Upstate.
The Albany = downstate idea strikes me as a North Country thing.
Quote from: vdeane on April 25, 2018, 02:09:58 PM
I think it's mainly Buffalo. I grew up in Rochester and never heard of the "multiple regions" stuff until college. Plus Rochester doesn't really fit into any region. It's not Western NY. It's not Central NY. It sometimes calls itself Finger Lakes, though the lakes are to the southeast and don't even enter Monroe County. It's Upstate and only Upstate.
Yeah, same here (well, I'm not in college, but this forum was the first place I heard that nonsense :))
Quote from: cl94 on April 25, 2018, 01:45:16 PM
Eh, most of the "multiple regions" stuff is perpetuated by people in Buffalo and Rochester who get quite annoyed whenever you say that is Upstate. Of course, they're also the same people who think Albany is "downstate", so...
But that's the whole thing: Rochester is where I grew up, from toddler-hood. I never once heard anybody claim it was some region distinct from "Upstate".
Quote from: vdeane on April 25, 2018, 02:09:58 PM
I think it's mainly Buffalo. I grew up in Rochester and never heard of the "multiple regions" stuff until college. Plus Rochester doesn't really fit into any region. It's not Western NY. It's not Central NY. It sometimes calls itself Finger Lakes, though the lakes are to the southeast and don't even enter Monroe County. It's Upstate and only Upstate.
It could be Buffalo, I suppose, as they are a little more attached to the "Western NY" moniker. But I'll wager there's still a degree of misinterpretation here, with some analysts thinking that because Buffalovians tend to identify more closely with the western region, they're somehow disavowing the "upstate" side of things.
QuoteThe Albany = downstate idea strikes me as a North Country thing.
Well it is downstate in the relative (small "d" sense of the word). One other reason for thinking of Albany as "Downstate" (large "d") could be because it's the capital, and thus the ostensible center of influence politically. And since the term "Upstate" refers to being outside the center of influence, Albany must not be Upstate. (More likely, though, it's just that people don't know where Albany actually is.) :-)
It's also worth noting that in the tweet being referenced, Albany is actually being considered "Upstate" (and the only part of Upstate, at that).
Do they drink "soda" or "pop" in Rochester?
I've always thought of the Genesee River as the dividing line between pop and soda.
Depending on who you talk to, the soda/pop divide is anywhere from Auburn to Batavia. Syracuse is ALWAYS soda, Buffalo is ALWAYS pop.
Quote from: 02 Park Ave on April 26, 2018, 07:02:23 PM
Do they drink "soda" or "pop" in Rochester?
Pop, if they're locals.
Quote from: vdeane on April 26, 2018, 07:56:31 PM
I've always thought of the Genesee River as the dividing line between pop and soda.
I-81, in my observation. (That's very general though; in reality it's a bit more to the west.)
Quote from: cl94 on April 26, 2018, 09:34:03 PM
Depending on who you talk to, the soda/pop divide is anywhere from Auburn to Batavia. Syracuse is ALWAYS soda, Buffalo is ALWAYS pop.
Wherever it is, it seems to be at about the same longitude as the Pennsylvania "lager line".
This could dredge up an old argument, so while I'm well aware there are plenty of people who disagree with me, there are also others who think everything north of the Bronx is upstate.
http://www.screanews.us/LongIsland/LongIslanderIf.htm
The pop/soda divide seems really interesting to me. Generally it feels like the line between pop and soda should be the dividing line between the Northeast and the Midwest, but I'm from eastern Wisconsin, and we're special in the fact that we say soda despite being clearly in the Midwest.
As someone who's never been to New York, I would probably guess that Upstate NY begins north of the lower Hudson Valley region, i.e. about north of Poughkeepsie.
Quote from: D-Dey65 on September 20, 2018, 11:14:18 PM
This could dredge up an old argument, so while I'm well aware there are plenty of people who disagree with me, there are also others who think everything north of the Bronx is upstate.
Well, that's essentially the premise that this whole thread is based on. But it is, as you say, more of a joke than a serious hypothesis. (Not that many people recognize the distinction, especially from Long Island...) :-D
Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 21, 2018, 01:33:27 PM
As someone who's never been to New York, I would probably guess that Upstate NY begins north of the lower Hudson Valley region, i.e. about north of Poughkeepsie.
And what leads you to that conclusion? After all, the whole point here is not to guess, but to see if a boundary can be objectively and empirically determined.
Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 21, 2018, 01:33:27 PM
As someone who's never been to New York, I would probably guess that Upstate NY begins north of the lower Hudson Valley region, i.e. about north of Poughkeepsie.
And what leads you to that conclusion? After all, the whole point here is not to guess, but to see if a boundary can be objectively and empirically determined.
[/quote]
I just wanted to provide my input. No need to shoot it down.
QuoteQuote
Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 21, 2018, 01:33:27 PM
As someone who's never been to New York, I would probably guess that Upstate NY begins north of the lower Hudson Valley region, i.e. about north of Poughkeepsie.
And what leads you to that conclusion? After all, the whole point here is not to guess, but to see if a boundary can be objectively and empirically determined.
I just wanted to provide my input. No need to shoot it down.
And I am interested in hearing your input; there is no shooting down intended. What, then, are your thoughts?
I once attempted to calculate the exact (2010) population of Upstate NY using the 42nd parallel as the dividing line. It got incredibly complicated at the town level, so I decided to abandon it.
There are actually only four counties which span the 42nd parallel: Delaware, Sullivan, Ulster, and Dutchess. For simplicity, the entirety of Delaware County can count as Upstate, and the entirety of the other three counties can count as Downstate.
It is also questionable as to whether a minuscule corner of Columbia County lies beneath the 42nd parallel - but it is definitely an Upstate County by most standards.
I have also considered the bold proposition of a dividing line that runs between Hancock and Ticonderoga, sort of like this (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Hancock,+New+York+13783/Ticonderoga,+NY+12883/@42.9658444,-75.0284173,7.73z/data=!4m24!4m23!1m15!1m1!1s0x89db6bada2aa0a19:0x316b74fc8596b86d!2m2!1d-75.2804502!2d41.9539754!3m4!1m2!1d-74.5847873!2d42.2644634!3s0x89dc5d62fd67b66f:0x5f6a6f3a4c674b72!3m4!1m2!1d-74.2245816!2d43.4706934!3s0x89df081abcb28b0d:0x5b4fd5336cd944ac!1m5!1m1!1s0x4cb555f8194d2da3:0x30dd863f73829cd8!2m2!1d-73.4234531!2d43.8486707!3e0!5m1!1e1). It may defy geographical expectations, but I personally think it matches the cultural divide fairly well (with apologies to those from the Albany area).
A thought I had regarding empirestate's idea of objectively defining Upstate vs. Downstate: at what point do you have a majority-commuting pattern into the NYC region?
Quote from: froggie on September 24, 2018, 10:51:00 AM
A thought I had regarding empirestate's idea of objectively defining Upstate vs. Downstate: at what point do you have a majority-commuting pattern into the NYC region?
Well, I'm not sure there's a majority in my town that commutes to the city proper. But then again, if my town's in the NYC "region", then even those who work from home would count. :-)
Quote from: D-Dey65 on September 20, 2018, 11:14:18 PM
This could dredge up an old argument, so while I'm well aware there are plenty of people who disagree with me, there are also others who think everything north of the Bronx is upstate.
http://www.screanews.us/LongIsland/LongIslanderIf.htm
Whoever wrote that page is into transportation and middle-aged. I got a kick out of it.
Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 23, 2018, 04:11:24 PM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 21, 2018, 01:33:27 PM
As someone who's never been to New York, I would probably guess that Upstate NY begins north of the lower Hudson Valley region, i.e. about north of Poughkeepsie.
And what leads you to that conclusion? After all, the whole point here is not to guess, but to see if a boundary can be objectively and empirically determined.
I just wanted to provide my input. No need to shoot it down.
[/quote]
Actually, this is another interesting aspect of it: how upstate is understood by people not closely tied to NYS....
Quote from: empirestate on September 23, 2018, 11:55:29 PM
QuoteQuote
Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 21, 2018, 01:33:27 PM
As someone who's never been to New York, I would probably guess that Upstate NY begins north of the lower Hudson Valley region, i.e. about north of Poughkeepsie.
And what leads you to that conclusion? After all, the whole point here is not to guess, but to see if a boundary can be objectively and empirically determined.
I just wanted to provide my input. No need to shoot it down.
And I am interested in hearing your input; there is no shooting down intended. What, then, are your thoughts?
Anything in New York State that has a general association with New York City. If it's within easy reach of New York City (like if a lot of commuters work there for example), then it's Downstate.
Quote from: kalvado on September 24, 2018, 03:49:08 PM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 23, 2018, 04:11:24 PM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 21, 2018, 01:33:27 PM
As someone who's never been to New York, I would probably guess that Upstate NY begins north of the lower Hudson Valley region, i.e. about north of Poughkeepsie.
And what leads you to that conclusion? After all, the whole point here is not to guess, but to see if a boundary can be objectively and empirically determined.
I just wanted to provide my input. No need to shoot it down.
Actually, this is another interesting aspect of it: how upstate is understood by people not closely tied to NYS....
[/quote]
My guess is this. When I was younger, I imagine the border was south of there, but its crept up.
Quote from: webny99 on September 24, 2018, 09:10:58 AM
I once attempted to calculate the exact (2010) population of Upstate NY using the 42nd parallel as the dividing line. It got incredibly complicated at the town level, so I decided to abandon it.
There are actually only four counties which span the 42nd parallel: Delaware, Sullivan, Ulster, and Dutchess. For simplicity, the entirety of Delaware County can count as Upstate, and the entirety of the other three counties can count as Downstate.
Including only entire counties, and using 2017 population figures, the population of Upstate NY is about
6,025,120.
That means it would rank 20th nationwide; putting it within 25,000 of Maryland, similar to Missouri, slightly less than Indiana and Tennessee, and slightly more than Minnesota and Wisconsin.
The funny thing is that even without Upstate - Downstate would
still have a population of over 13 million, meaning it would still rank as the 4th most populous state nationwide -
unchanged from the current ranking of NYS in its entirety!! This is due, of course, to a gap of around 9 million between Florida (3rd at 21.3m) and Pennsylvania (5th at 12.8m), providing a lot of leeway. So NY will rank 4th for the foreseeable future, considering it can lose all of Upstate and still do so!
Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 24, 2018, 04:08:31 PM
Quote from: empirestate on September 23, 2018, 11:55:29 PM
QuoteQuote
Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 21, 2018, 01:33:27 PM
As someone who's never been to New York, I would probably guess that Upstate NY begins north of the lower Hudson Valley region, i.e. about north of Poughkeepsie.
And what leads you to that conclusion? After all, the whole point here is not to guess, but to see if a boundary can be objectively and empirically determined.
I just wanted to provide my input. No need to shoot it down.
And I am interested in hearing your input; there is no shooting down intended. What, then, are your thoughts?
Anything in New York State that has a general association with New York City. If it's within easy reach of New York City (like if a lot of commuters work there for example), then it's Downstate.
Sounds like you'd adopt more or less the same definition that I would. Is there anything you'd tweak (such as, say, measuring the actual number of commuters rather than just their potential for doing so)?
Quote from: empirestate on September 25, 2018, 07:55:42 PM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 24, 2018, 04:08:31 PM
Quote from: empirestate on September 23, 2018, 11:55:29 PM
QuoteQuote
Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 21, 2018, 01:33:27 PM
As someone who's never been to New York, I would probably guess that Upstate NY begins north of the lower Hudson Valley region, i.e. about north of Poughkeepsie.
And what leads you to that conclusion? After all, the whole point here is not to guess, but to see if a boundary can be objectively and empirically determined.
I just wanted to provide my input. No need to shoot it down.
And I am interested in hearing your input; there is no shooting down intended. What, then, are your thoughts?
Anything in New York State that has a general association with New York City. If it's within easy reach of New York City (like if a lot of commuters work there for example), then it's Downstate.
Sounds like you'd adopt more or less the same definition that I would. Is there anything you'd tweak (such as, say, measuring the actual number of commuters rather than just their potential for doing so)?
I wasn't really looking for any actual measurements.
Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 26, 2018, 02:09:06 AM
Quote from: empirestate on September 25, 2018, 07:55:42 PM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 24, 2018, 04:08:31 PM
Quote from: empirestate on September 23, 2018, 11:55:29 PM
QuoteQuote
Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 21, 2018, 01:33:27 PM
As someone who's never been to New York, I would probably guess that Upstate NY begins north of the lower Hudson Valley region, i.e. about north of Poughkeepsie.
And what leads you to that conclusion? After all, the whole point here is not to guess, but to see if a boundary can be objectively and empirically determined.
I just wanted to provide my input. No need to shoot it down.
And I am interested in hearing your input; there is no shooting down intended. What, then, are your thoughts?
Anything in New York State that has a general association with New York City. If it's within easy reach of New York City (like if a lot of commuters work there for example), then it's Downstate.
Sounds like you'd adopt more or less the same definition that I would. Is there anything you'd tweak (such as, say, measuring the actual number of commuters rather than just their potential for doing so)?
I wasn't really looking for any actual measurements.
Well, the idea is to find something fairly concrete, to be able to draw a specific line and be able to definitively say, on one side of this line is Upstate, and on the other is not, because of such-and-such observable difference. Commutation is also what I use to draw my line, and I particularize it by saying that areas with Metro North service are not Upstate (or, alternately, that those whole counties that are within the Metropolitan Commuter Tax District are not Upstate).
Since you haven't previously thought of a way to measure this, would you just take that as an appropriate definition, or would you look for something more precise?
Quote from: empirestate on September 26, 2018, 11:05:08 AM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 26, 2018, 02:09:06 AM
Quote from: empirestate on September 25, 2018, 07:55:42 PM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 24, 2018, 04:08:31 PM
Quote from: empirestate on September 23, 2018, 11:55:29 PM
QuoteQuote
Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 21, 2018, 01:33:27 PM
As someone who's never been to New York, I would probably guess that Upstate NY begins north of the lower Hudson Valley region, i.e. about north of Poughkeepsie.
And what leads you to that conclusion? After all, the whole point here is not to guess, but to see if a boundary can be objectively and empirically determined.
I just wanted to provide my input. No need to shoot it down.
And I am interested in hearing your input; there is no shooting down intended. What, then, are your thoughts?
Anything in New York State that has a general association with New York City. If it's within easy reach of New York City (like if a lot of commuters work there for example), then it's Downstate.
Sounds like you'd adopt more or less the same definition that I would. Is there anything you'd tweak (such as, say, measuring the actual number of commuters rather than just their potential for doing so)?
I wasn't really looking for any actual measurements.
Well, the idea is to find something fairly concrete, to be able to draw a specific line and be able to definitively say, on one side of this line is Upstate, and on the other is not, because of such-and-such observable difference. Commutation is also what I use to draw my line, and I particularize it by saying that areas with Metro North service are not Upstate (or, alternately, that those whole counties that are within the Metropolitan Commuter Tax District are not Upstate).
Since you haven't previously thought of a way to measure this, would you just take that as an appropriate definition, or would you look for something more precise?
Sounds about right.
Beautiful and Scenic
Quote from: MattCollopy on October 03, 2018, 08:24:29 AM
Beautiful and Scenic
Thank you for the (deserved) kind words!
Bumping this thread because the coronavirus regional reopening provides another interesting new way to look at the subject. If you go to the site for NY's reopening plan (https://forward.ny.gov/) and click on the Regional Monitoring Dashboard, as I post this, there are four regions that don't meet the new hospitalizations (under 2 per 100k residents) standard: NYC, Long Island, Mid-Hudson, and Western NY. NYC and the two adjacent regions could thus be termed "downstate", the regions that currently meet all 7 criteria and will be beginning to reopen tomorrow "upstate", with Western NY and the Capital District separate. Now, I've never really subscribed to having the Capital District and Western NY be separate before... but this makes a case for it.
Fun fact: it looks like there's an actual, official definition - if you click on "COVID-19 tracker: testing & fatalities", there's a "show downstate counties only" button under the map, which reduces it to NYC, Long Island, Westchester County, and Rockland County (in MPO terms, it's the NYMTC area minus Putnam County). Note that these are also the counties that would remain NY in the various upstate secession proposals that have come and gone. In his briefings, Cuomo has always seemed to refer to upstate as everything that isn't downstate, so it would seem that this is the closest we'll ever see to "this is definitively what upstate NY is".
Quote from: vdeaneIn his briefings, Cuomo has always seemed to refer to upstate as everything that isn't downstate
I'd say he's really going out on a limb with his definition. :P
Quote from: vdeane on May 14, 2020, 09:55:10 PM
Fun fact: it looks like there's an actual, official definition - if you click on "COVID-19 tracker: testing & fatalities", there's a "show downstate counties only" button under the map, which reduces it to NYC, Long Island, Westchester County, and Rockland County (in MPO terms, it's the NYMTC area minus Putnam County).
And the MCTD minus Putnam, Orange, and Dutchess, where I now live.
I do agree that the pandemic has reinforced the connectivity between regions. The fact the southern Dutchess is still very much within the NYC sphere of influence has a big effect on our perceptions of potential reopening.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on May 14, 2020, 11:26:58 PM
Quote from: vdeaneIn his briefings, Cuomo has always seemed to refer to upstate as everything that isn't downstate
I'd say he's really going out on a limb with his definition. :P
Everyone's forgetting about midstate New York. :sombrero:
The Illinois map is very much like the New York one .Not surprising because our Gov is watching them. The Downstate Illinois epidemic is still slaughterhouses and nursing homes.The lockdown has limited community spread.compare Iowa population 2.9 million to at 15083 to downstate Illinois at 9826 4.5 million.
From what I understand you can have it and never get the symptoms, but spread it. That is old news of course, but new news is that OneBlood is now screening blood donations and those that have had it and built up antibodies in the blood, are being considered for one who has been diagnosed with COVID19 in an attempt to build antibodies up in the receiver's blood stream.
Quote from: 3467 on May 18, 2020, 11:35:15 PM
The Illinois map is very much like the New York one .Not surprising because our Gov is watching them. The Downstate Illinois epidemic is still slaughterhouses and nursing homes.The lockdown has limited community spread.compare Iowa population 2.9 million to at 15083 to downstate Illinois at 9826 4.5 million.
I always felt "downstate" essentially refereed to anything outside I-90, even west/northwest of Rockford.
Cold.
... oh, you meant location. Eh, my family was from Rockland - a stone's throw from the NJ border. For us, upstate NY was "Not NY City or Anything Attached to It" (sorry, Westchester County).
Quote from: J3ebrules on May 20, 2020, 12:14:24 AM
Cold.
... oh, you meant location. Eh, my family was from Rockland - a stone's throw from the NJ border. For us, upstate NY was "Not NY City or Anything Attached to It" (sorry, Westchester County).
All of New York is cold, state and city.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 20, 2020, 12:26:19 AM
All of New York is cold, state and city.
Upstate is colder, because it's both inland and further north. In fact upstate is famous for snow, while snow is a big deal in NYC.
Quote from: J3ebrules on May 20, 2020, 12:14:24 AM
... oh, you meant location. Eh, my family was from Rockland - a stone's throw from the NJ border. For us, upstate NY was "Not NY City or Anything Attached to It" (sorry, Westchester County).
Well, actually I meant observable or measurable differences, not merely location. Was there something about life on the west shore of the Hudson that was distinct from that on the east shore? Or another way to think about it is, if you were randomly dropped somewhere in New York, and had no way to find your location on the map, could you look around at something in the world and definitively say "Oh, I'm somewhere Upstate"?
(As an aside, it's interesting that your family's definition also places Suffolk County Upstate.)
Quote from: J3ebrules on May 20, 2020, 12:14:24 AM
Cold.
... oh, you meant location. Eh, my family was from Rockland - a stone's throw from the NJ border. For us, upstate NY was "Not NY City or Anything Attached to It" (sorry, Westchester County).
What does "attached to NYC" mean?
Having been to NY several times since 2015, I think I can give more concrete answer to this question.
The point at which Upstate begins would be the Croton Reservoir.
Population density at this point reaches a sharp drop off, and Hudson River tolls significantly decrease north of this point. Gas stations off I-84 tend to be smaller, more common, and less integrated into restaurants (unlike gas stations in the NYC area or along major roads like the Hutch or Merritt in CT). This area is also the midst of the Catskills, the traditional vacation country for NYC folk, and also where major utilities such as power and water are sourced (near the Croton Aqueduct, which supplied the city for a century). It's also the area where phrases referring to Upstate originate; going "up the river" referred to going to Sing Sing Correctional.
Another point of interest is Metro North passenger data (see PDF pages 49-50) (http://web.mta.info/mta/planning/data/MTA_MNR-Survey-Final-Report.pdf) (okay, a survey, but Metro-North info is oddly hard to find). Drawing the Upstate-Downstate dividing line at Katonah (Harlem line) and Cortlandt (Hudson line) - both at roughly the same latitude, you'll notice that far less passengers board north of these stations.
Quote from: noelbotevera on May 20, 2020, 05:12:03 PM
Having been to NY several times since 2015, I think I can give more concrete answer to this question.
The point at which Upstate begins would be the Croton Reservoir.
Do you mean the New Croton Reservoir, in mid-northern Westchester?
QuoteThis area is also the midst of the Catskills, the traditional vacation country for NYC folk, and also where major utilities such as power and water are sourced (near the Croton Aqueduct, which supplied the city for a century).
Westchester County is in no way in even the fringes of the Catskills, much less the midst. At the very least, that region lies entirely west of the Hudson. Maybe you're thinking of the Ashokan Reservoir, or one of the others up that way?
QuoteAnother point of interest is Metro North passenger data (see PDF pages 49-50) (http://web.mta.info/mta/planning/data/MTA_MNR-Survey-Final-Report.pdf) (okay, a survey, but Metro-North info is oddly hard to find). Drawing the Upstate-Downstate dividing line at Katonah (Harlem line) and Cortlandt (Hudson line) - both at roughly the same latitude, you'll notice that far less passengers board north of these stations.
But there are, of course, still passengers...and the proportion of them who are commuting to and from NYC still vastly outweighs those traveling intra-regionally. To me, the fact that there's this kind of inter-connectivity to the city is the very defining characteristic of the non-Upstate region. (You also mentioned earlier the connection of the Catskill to the city, as a prominent vacation retreat. Even that connectivity, to me, suggest the possibility that the Catskills are a Downstate region.)
It's true there is a certain shift in the character of the area as you cross that approximate point, but I'd consider it more of a suburban/exurban divide, rather than Downstate/Upstate. To me, it's less about the number of people making trips to and from the city, but rather the fact that such trips are even feasible.
Quote from: empirestate on May 20, 2020, 06:53:45 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on May 20, 2020, 05:12:03 PM
Having been to NY several times since 2015, I think I can give more concrete answer to this question.
The point at which Upstate begins would be the Croton Reservoir.
Do you mean the New Croton Reservoir, in mid-northern Westchester?
QuoteThis area is also the midst of the Catskills, the traditional vacation country for NYC folk, and also where major utilities such as power and water are sourced (near the Croton Aqueduct, which supplied the city for a century).
Westchester County is in no way in even the fringes of the Catskills, much less the midst. At the very least, that region lies entirely west of the Hudson. Maybe you're thinking of the Ashokan Reservoir, or one of the others up that way?
QuoteAnother point of interest is Metro North passenger data (see PDF pages 49-50) (http://web.mta.info/mta/planning/data/MTA_MNR-Survey-Final-Report.pdf) (okay, a survey, but Metro-North info is oddly hard to find). Drawing the Upstate-Downstate dividing line at Katonah (Harlem line) and Cortlandt (Hudson line) - both at roughly the same latitude, you'll notice that far less passengers board north of these stations.
But there are, of course, still passengers...and the proportion of them who are commuting to and from NYC still vastly outweighs those traveling intra-regionally. To me, the fact that there's this kind of inter-connectivity to the city is the very defining characteristic of the non-Upstate region. (You also mentioned earlier the connection of the Catskill to the city, as a prominent vacation retreat. Even that connectivity, to me, suggest the possibility that the Catskills are a Downstate region.)
It's true there is a certain shift in the character of the area as you cross that approximate point, but I'd consider it more of a suburban/exurban divide, rather than Downstate/Upstate. To me, it's less about the number of people making trips to and from the city, but rather the fact that such trips are even feasible.
I'm referring to the New Croton Reservoir, adjacent to Harriman State Park. Also: I'm dumb. Yes, the Catskills are farther north.
I also consider utility sources to be significant; it means that there's (generally) fewer people who live there and less likely to be inconvenienced. For example, the Quabbin Reservoir supplies most of Boston's water; would you consider that area to be part of the Boston metro area?
The Metro-North connection you refer to could also be chalked up to a lack of rail transit in the area (no E-W lines) but also intent of Metro-North (get passengers from the suburbs to the city). When you put it that way, there is a definite connection to NYC. But I think the fact that there's few passengers north of either point means more car ownership and thus characteristics similar to rural areas (say, the Southern Tier). Perhaps housing prices might be another possible dividing line; whether prices in Peekskill are significantly lower than Yonkers or White Plains might signify a looser connection to NYC.
Quote from: empirestate on May 20, 2020, 01:42:06 PM
Quote from: J3ebrules on May 20, 2020, 12:14:24 AM
... oh, you meant location. Eh, my family was from Rockland - a stone's throw from the NJ border. For us, upstate NY was "Not NY City or Anything Attached to It" (sorry, Westchester County).
Well, actually I meant observable or measurable differences, not merely location. Was there something about life on the west shore of the Hudson that was distinct from that on the east shore? Or another way to think about it is, if you were randomly dropped somewhere in New York, and had no way to find your location on the map, could you look around at something in the world and definitively say "Oh, I'm somewhere Upstate"?
(As an aside, it's interesting that your family's definition also places Suffolk County Upstate.)
HA! Long Island would have not counted as upstate because it's physically attached to NYC (through Brooklyn/Queens). But there was always this sense in Rockland that the easternmost counties were somehow different from the rest of "Upstate" NY - for some reason, I never considered Westchester County as fitting in, somehow. Maybe because they are geographically south of the NJ northern border of NY, or somehow... some how distinctly ($$$?) closer to CT culturally? I couldn't imagine a Rockland County person arguing that White Plains isn't part of that "Upstate" designation.
When it comes down to it, I believe that Upstate New York is always simply North of where that New Yorker is from (And sometimes inclusive of where that New Yorker lives, depending on the person), until you get somewhere around the Adirondacks. They know they're in Upstate NY and there's not much NY left to go!
Gah, for someone who has been unthinkingly referring to “Upstate New York” literally my entire life, with family in Rockland and being born and raised in Hudson County, NJ as a child, this is really twisting my head at how elusive this definition is to pin down!!
Talk about taking a concept for granted!
Quote from: J3ebrules on May 20, 2020, 11:48:26 PM
Quote from: empirestate on May 20, 2020, 01:42:06 PM
Quote from: J3ebrules on May 20, 2020, 12:14:24 AM
... oh, you meant location. Eh, my family was from Rockland - a stone's throw from the NJ border. For us, upstate NY was "Not NY City or Anything Attached to It" (sorry, Westchester County).
Well, actually I meant observable or measurable differences, not merely location. Was there something about life on the west shore of the Hudson that was distinct from that on the east shore? Or another way to think about it is, if you were randomly dropped somewhere in New York, and had no way to find your location on the map, could you look around at something in the world and definitively say "Oh, I'm somewhere Upstate"?
(As an aside, it's interesting that your family's definition also places Suffolk County Upstate.)
HA! Long Island would have not counted as upstate because it's physically attached to NYC (through Brooklyn/Queens). But there was always this sense in Rockland that the easternmost counties were somehow different from the rest of "Upstate" NY - for some reason, I never considered Westchester County as fitting in, somehow. Maybe because they are geographically south of the NJ northern border of NY, or somehow... some how distinctly ($$$?) closer to CT culturally? I couldn't imagine a Rockland County person arguing that White Plains isn't part of that "Upstate" designation.
When it comes down to it, I believe that Upstate New York is always simply North of where that New Yorker is from (And sometimes inclusive of where that New Yorker lives, depending on the person), until you get somewhere around the Adirondacks. They know they're in Upstate NY and there's not much NY left to go!
Do people in Poughkeepsie and Kingston really think they are downstate? Even Albany?
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 20, 2020, 11:51:28 PM
Quote from: J3ebrules on May 20, 2020, 11:48:26 PM
Quote from: empirestate on May 20, 2020, 01:42:06 PM
Quote from: J3ebrules on May 20, 2020, 12:14:24 AM
... oh, you meant location. Eh, my family was from Rockland - a stone's throw from the NJ border. For us, upstate NY was "Not NY City or Anything Attached to It" (sorry, Westchester County).
Well, actually I meant observable or measurable differences, not merely location. Was there something about life on the west shore of the Hudson that was distinct from that on the east shore? Or another way to think about it is, if you were randomly dropped somewhere in New York, and had no way to find your location on the map, could you look around at something in the world and definitively say "Oh, I'm somewhere Upstate"?
(As an aside, it's interesting that your family's definition also places Suffolk County Upstate.)
HA! Long Island would have not counted as upstate because it's physically attached to NYC (through Brooklyn/Queens). But there was always this sense in Rockland that the easternmost counties were somehow different from the rest of "Upstate" NY - for some reason, I never considered Westchester County as fitting in, somehow. Maybe because they are geographically south of the NJ northern border of NY, or somehow... some how distinctly ($$$?) closer to CT culturally? I couldn't imagine a Rockland County person arguing that White Plains isn't part of that "Upstate" designation.
When it comes down to it, I believe that Upstate New York is always simply North of where that New Yorker is from (And sometimes inclusive of where that New Yorker lives, depending on the person), until you get somewhere around the Adirondacks. They know they're in Upstate NY and there's not much NY left to go!
Do people in Poughkeepsie and Kingston really think they are downstate? Even Albany?
No.
Quote from: Rothman on May 21, 2020, 07:33:03 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 20, 2020, 11:51:28 PM
Do people in Poughkeepsie and Kingston really think they are downstate? Even Albany?
No.
Westchester and Rockland: Definitely yes.
Poughkeepsie and Kingston: Questionable. To me, they are downstate, and I would think being closer to the *real* upstate would give them a more balanced perspective, but who knows? :)
Albany: Definitely no.
How about using electric utilities' service areas? ConEdison, Orange & Rockland, and LILCO are downstate while Central Hudson and Niagara Mohawk are upstate.
Quote from: webny99 on May 21, 2020, 09:39:04 AM
Quote from: Rothman on May 21, 2020, 07:33:03 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 20, 2020, 11:51:28 PM
Do people in Poughkeepsie and Kingston really think they are downstate? Even Albany?
No.
Westchester and Rockland: Definitely yes.
Poughkeepsie and Kingston: Questionable. To me, they are downstate, and I would think being closer to the *real* upstate would give them a more balanced perspective, but who knows? :)
Albany: Definitely no.
If you define upstate as anything that isn't downstate, then Albany is upstate. However, my impression is that downstate is somewhere down there, upstate is somewhere in up there, and Albany is in between.
Quote from: noelbotevera on May 20, 2020, 08:18:30 PM
I'm referring to the New Croton Reservoir, adjacent to Harriman State Park.
But the two are not adjacent; again, we're talking opposite sides of the river here. However, I could see how you might draw a boundary connecting the two areas, although the exact location of a line across the river itself is a litte unclear.
QuoteI also consider utility sources to be significant; it means that there's (generally) fewer people who live there and less likely to be inconvenienced. For example, the Quabbin Reservoir supplies most of Boston's water; would you consider that area to be part of the Boston metro area?
Probably not on its own, as I'd look for something more directly applicable to the everyday lives of people. However, the presence of such a link could be one indicator that there are other ties between the two areas, so even if it's not by itself a defining factor, it may be one piece of the evidence puzzle.
QuoteThe Metro-North connection you refer to could also be chalked up to a lack of rail transit in the area (no E-W lines) but also intent of Metro-North (get passengers from the suburbs to the city). When you put it that way, there is a definite connection to NYC. But I think the fact that there's few passengers north of either point means more car ownership and thus characteristics similar to rural areas (say, the Southern Tier).
There's a difference, for sure, but again I'd qualify that as a suburban/exurban divide. If you're in a suburb or an exurb, then by definition you're somewhere in reference to an "urb"–i.e., the city. So if you're in such an area, you're in some way defined by having that urban connection, even if it's in the context of being a remote connection. The fact that a commuter rail system exists in an area, I think, unequivocally places that area into a sphere of connectivity to the urban center that necessitates it.
QuotePerhaps housing prices might be another possible dividing line; whether prices in Peekskill are significantly lower than Yonkers or White Plains might signify a looser connection to NYC.
They might, indeed, but as a recent homeowner and property tax payer in that very area, I can tell you for sure that those things bear a stronger resemblance to the NYC side of things than the Upstate side. Even now, living here in southern Dutchess, the market is much more a big-city affair than a small-town one. You really don't start to see an Upstate-style housing market until you get to the northerly side of the Catskills, and west of the Hudson (to the east, you have to go still farther north, because of the Berkshire influence).
Quote from: J3ebrules on May 20, 2020, 11:48:26 PM
HA! Long Island would have not counted as upstate because it's physically attached to NYC (through Brooklyn/Queens).
Then that, of course, would also exclude Westchester, Putnam, Dutchess, St. Lawrence...all of the North American mainland, really. ;-)
QuoteBut there was always this sense in Rockland that the easternmost counties were somehow different from the rest of "Upstate" NY - for some reason, I never considered Westchester County as fitting in, somehow. Maybe because they are geographically south of the NJ northern border of NY, or somehow... some how distinctly ($$$?) closer to CT culturally? I couldn't imagine a Rockland County person arguing that White Plains isn't part of that "Upstate" designation.
Of course, I don't think anyone seriously considers Nassau or Suffolk to be Upstate, but that's really the whole reason for the question. Once you articulate what you thought the definition was, you often find yourself stuck in just such a logical trap, and it got me wondering if there wasn't really an objective way to determine the answer, beyond just where you always assumed the line was on the map.
Yes, there is a noticeable resemblance between the eastern counties and the states they border–CT, MA, VT–and you'll find that's also true along the Southern Tier with respect to PA, and yes, in Rockland County with respect to NJ. (And as for Long Island, the north shore most closely resembles New England, while the south feels like the Mid-Atlantic.)
QuoteWhen it comes down to it, I believe that Upstate New York is always simply North of where that New Yorker is from (And sometimes inclusive of where that New Yorker lives, depending on the person), until you get somewhere around the Adirondacks. They know they're in Upstate NY and there's not much NY left to go!
And of course, as someone from Rochester, I "know" that Upstate is actually much larger than that, including most of the state–but certainly not those areas down near NYC. :-)
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 20, 2020, 11:51:28 PM
Do people in Poughkeepsie and Kingston really think they are downstate? Even Albany?
Not for the most part; a few more in Poughkeepsie, perhaps, but definitely not Albany. But of course, that's the whole point of asking–is there a way to determine it objectively, rather than by where people "think" they are?
Quote from: 02 Park Ave on May 21, 2020, 10:16:17 AM
How about using electric utilities' service areas? ConEdison, Orange & Rockland, and LILCO are downstate while Central Hudson and Niagara Mohawk are upstate.
Not a bad idea, although CenHud has some service in Downstate territory as well. In that same region (where I live), we also can choose between TV and radio stations from New York or from Albany. Our NWS forecast office is that of Albany, and in one recent storm warning issued by the New York office, the southern corner of Dutchess was noticably and humorously clipped out of harm's way, because it happens to lie outside their forecast area. (Ended up getting a heck of a gust front come through, anyway!) :-D
The southern half of Dutchess County, to be sure, is the one area I'd consider to be the most debatable. It certainly is a mixture of Upstate and Downstate culturally, and while I still tend to place anything with rail service firmly in the Downstate category, I would certainly not argue with placing the rest of the county outside of it.
NYSDOT regions 8, 10 and 11 are downstate, everything else is upstate in my opinion. (One way of looking at it.)
(https://www.dot.ny.gov/rexdesign/design/regionsmap.png)
Quote from: steviep24 on May 22, 2020, 02:23:43 PM
NYSDOT regions 8, 10 and 11 are downstate, everything else is upstate in my opinion. (One way of looking at it.)
(https://www.dot.ny.gov/rexdesign/design/regionsmap.png)
Region 8 stretches a bit too far north.
The economic development map doesn't have the county jogs in Regions 8 and 9 that make the DOT map a bit odd for upstate/downstate. Mid-Hudson, NYC, and Long Island are downstate (as it happens, those are the three regions that are still "on pause").
https://www.governor.ny.gov/sites/governor.ny.gov/files/atoms/files/RegionalCouncilMap.pdf
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 22, 2020, 02:43:50 PM
Quote from: steviep24 on May 22, 2020, 02:23:43 PM
NYSDOT regions 8, 10 and 11 are downstate, everything else is upstate in my opinion. (One way of looking at it.)
(https://www.dot.ny.gov/rexdesign/design/regionsmap.png)
Region 8 stretches a bit too far north.
Eh. NYSDOT still considers it a downstate region.
Quote from: Rothman on May 22, 2020, 09:23:10 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 22, 2020, 02:43:50 PM
Quote from: steviep24 on May 22, 2020, 02:23:43 PM
NYSDOT regions 8, 10 and 11 are downstate, everything else is upstate in my opinion. (One way of looking at it.)
(https://www.dot.ny.gov/rexdesign/design/regionsmap.png)
Region 8 stretches a bit too far north.
Eh. NYSDOT still considers it a downstate region.
Well, different DOT region practices could certainly qualify for the question, if they have a demonstrable effect. Is there something specific that NYSDOT does in its "downstate" regions that a casual observer could point to and say, "See? Because of that, we're definitely not Upstate; rather, we're in the region defined by the influence of New York City"?
Personally, I agree that Columbia County and even much of Dutchess (in Region 8) don't fit the Downstate bill, whereas Sullivan (not in Region 8) is at least a closer match. On the other hand, pretty much anything on the tidewater Hudson (so, up to Troy and the Mohawk confluence) has a least a little inkling of the big city in its blood. That's hard to quantify, though; it's sort of a combination of cultural cues and the built environment–certain areas just "look" and "feel" more Upstate than others. Finding a way to measure that is what I'm after.
Since the state rivalries thread, I got to thinking, and I think I've come up with a definition of Upstate NY that actually is tied to a definable criteria:
Start at the Tri-States Monument in Port Jervis, and head more or less due northeast until you hit the CT/MA/NY Tri-Point near Boston Corner. Pretty straightforward, and gives you a nice triangle of "downstate" north of NYC that passes just south of Kingston and Ellenville.
Here's where the definable criteria comes in:
Downstate NY is defined by New Jersey being to the west and Connecticut being to the east; such is very much a part of the NYC region's "Tri-State" identity.
So if you're from downstate, Pennsylvania is simply "west of Jersey", and Massachusetts is simply "north of Connecticut".
Whereas if you're from upstate, Jersey is not relevant in identifying the location of Pennsylvania, and Connecticut is not relevant in identifying the location of Massachusetts.
Thus, downstate is the area that does not share a border with PA or MA (instead relating all other states to their directionality from Jersey or Connecticut), and upstate is the area that does share a border with PA and MA, thus distinguishing it from downstate, which does not.
I'm not sure if this is a true consensus answer, but I think I'm definitely onto something here, at least culturally/socially and in terms of one's perspective of the surrounding states. Thoughts?
Quote from: webny99 on August 24, 2021, 12:18:44 PM
I'm not sure if this is a true consensus answer, but I think I'm definitely onto something here, at least culturally/socially and in terms of one's perspective of the surrounding states. Thoughts?
That's a very interesting way to look at it. While defining Upstate and Downstate purely according to borders is too abstract for the spirit of this thread, you're right that it does speak to the identity of the tri-state region as being indicative of the NYC sphere of influence, which is tangible culturally.
I can't help but notice, also, that your boundary line almost perfectly encompasses the reach of Metro North service (my principal definition), while also bisecting Orange and Dutchess Counties in such a way that the more "upstate" parts of them fall on the appropriate side of the line. (For example, I've observed the "downstateness" of Dutchess County to extend well up the NY 22 corridor, certainly to Amenia if not Millerton.) So as a line on a map, it's perhaps more accurate than more commonly used ones like I-84.
Also interesting, especially as a Mid-Hudson Valley resident, is that this line separates Poughkeepsie and Newburgh from Kingston and Hudson, which is apt but also not apt, as the Mid-Hudson region is pretty cohesive among itself while still also having distinct "upstate" and "downstate" characteristics. And yes, it very accurately places New Paltz right in the midst of a split personality crisis, which is also very apt to real life. :)
Quote from: empirestate on August 24, 2021, 06:15:30 PM
That's a very interesting way to look at it. While defining Upstate and Downstate purely according to borders is too abstract for the spirit of this thread, you're right that it does speak to the identity of the tri-state region as being indicative of the NYC sphere of influence, which is tangible culturally.
Too abstract? I would think it's not abstract enough, given that there's not many things that are more concrete than a hard line. :)
Quote from: empirestate on August 24, 2021, 06:15:30 PM
I can't help but notice, also, that your boundary line almost perfectly encompasses the reach of Metro North service (my principal definition), while also bisecting Orange and Dutchess Counties in such a way that the more "upstate" parts of them fall on the appropriate side of the line. (For example, I've observed the "downstateness" of Dutchess County to extend well up the NY 22 corridor, certainly to Amenia if not Millerton.) So as a line on a map, it's perhaps more accurate than more commonly used ones like I-84.
The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of an angled boundary. The points you describe are part of the reason why: it makes more sense when looking at the urbanized areas, and "downstate" certainly does seem to extend further north on the east side of the Hudson.
When you look at the triangle formed by the 42nd parallel, the Delaware River, and my proposed boundary - which would include Sullivan County and much of Ulster County - I think most of it really does fit better with upstate than it does downstate. This would put places such as Ellenville, Liberty, and Woodstock, in addition to much of the Catskills, squarely on the upstate side of the line, which I think is entirely appropriate. And the angled line makes even more sense when looked at in conjunction with the New Jersey and Connecticut lines - as contrasted with with the straighter lines like the 42nd parallel or I-84, which tend to skew a bit too heavily north/westward relative to NYC.
And I really don't think downstate should share a border with Pennsylvania - that's about as "upstate" a thing as you can get. So assigning the aforementioned triangle to upstate helps even things off a bit, while also preserving the Pennsylvania state line as an upstate specialty.
Quote from: webny99 on August 24, 2021, 09:51:13 PM
The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of an angled boundary. The points you describe are part of the reason why: it makes more sense when looking at the urbanized areas, and "downstate" certainly does seem to extend further north on the east side of the Hudson.
Part of that may be due to the trend of the coastline and of the Northeast Corridor in general, but a much larger part is probably that this is where the Shawangunk Ridge intercedes. Farther south, the Hudson Highlands also form a natural cultural barrier–one that was pushed through eventually, but not all that long ago in the scheme of things. To this day, passing through the Breakneck Tunnel is my cue to switch the radio between WNYC and WAMC. :)
QuoteWhen you look at the triangle formed by the 42nd parallel, the Delaware River, and my proposed boundary - which would include Sullivan County and much of Ulster County - I think most of it really does fit better with upstate than it does downstate. This would put places such as Ellenville, Liberty, and Woodstock, in addition to much of the Catskills, squarely on the upstate side of the line, which I think is entirely appropriate.
And yet...somehow those areas still inhabit some semblance of a "downstate" vibe, too. When I follow route 17, it's frankly not until I hit Binghamton that the last vestige of downstateness really seems to drop away.
QuoteAnd I really don't think downstate should share a border with Pennsylvania - that's about as "upstate" a thing as you can get. So assigning the aforementioned triangle to upstate helps even things off a bit, while also preserving the Pennsylvania state line as an upstate specialty.
I don't disagree here, but I will note that the areas of PA that are adjacent to New Jersey–the Poconos, in essence–are really similar to it in a way that no other part of PA is. And while that part of north Jersey doesn't feel like downstate NY, it does feel like metro NYC–and thus, by definition, not Upstate.
(But that part of PA isn't the part that borders NY, so we're safe.)
Anywhere north the Tappen Zee bridge area.
Quote from: on_wisconsin on August 25, 2021, 09:52:34 AM
Anywhere north the Tappen Zee bridge area.
Okay, why there? What's different about ordinary life for residents of, say, Ardsley versus Ossining?
Quote from: empirestate on August 25, 2021, 12:23:53 AM
To this day, passing through the Breakneck Tunnel is my cue to switch the radio between WNYC and WAMC. :)
Interesting. I was not aware of the tunnel there.
Quote from: empirestate on August 25, 2021, 12:23:53 AM
And yet...somehow those areas still inhabit some semblance of a "downstate" vibe, too. When I follow route 17, it's frankly not until I hit Binghamton that the last vestige of downstateness really seems to drop away.
Yeah, the area between Hancock and Middletown is kind of a "transition" zone - more upstate than down in my opinion, but not quite the same as further north.
Maybe we can think of the boundary I proposed (corner of NJ to corner of CT) as the
start of the transition zone, and then other end of the transition zone would run from Hale Eddy to the NY/MA/VT tripoint? That would put most of the Catskills and some of Albany's southern suburbs in the said transition zone, which seems reasonable, especially given the Hudson Valley's historical and cultural ties to NYC.
Quote from: empirestate on August 25, 2021, 12:23:53 AM
... the areas of PA that are adjacent to New Jersey–the Poconos, in essence–are really similar to it in a way that no other part of PA is. And while that part of north Jersey doesn't feel like downstate NY, it does feel like metro NYC–and thus, by definition, not Upstate.
(But that part of PA isn't the part that borders NY, so we're safe.)
Interesting. I suppose you could also call that part of PA a "transition" zone into NYC's sphere of influence, but it certainly is a different dynamic since it's New Jersey, not New York, that lies between there and NYC. It's sort of like the original NYC phenomenon, but in reverse: from the Poconos, downstate NY lies beyond NJ, so if you're crossing
directly into NY, it must be upstate. :)
Quote from: webny99 on August 25, 2021, 12:40:39 PM
Quote from: empirestate on August 25, 2021, 12:23:53 AM
To this day, passing through the Breakneck Tunnel is my cue to switch the radio between WNYC and WAMC. :)
Interesting. I was not aware of the tunnel there.
It is, in fact, the only perterranean road tunnel in all of New York.
Yeah, the area between Hancock and Middletown is kind of a "transition" zone - more upstate than down in my opinion, but not quite the same as further north.
Maybe we can think of the boundary I proposed (corner of NJ to corner of CT) as the
start of the transition zone, and then other end of the transition zone would run from Hale Eddy to the NY/MA/VT tripoint? That would put most of the Catskills and some of Albany's southern suburbs in the said transition zone, which seems reasonable, especially given the Hudson Valley's historical and cultural ties to NYC.
[/quote]
The transition zone is real, and quite wide, and that's as reasonable as any a place to draw the line. The key element that keeps it Upstate, to me, is that its connectivity to New York City is occasional and transitory, not fixed into the daily fabric as it is in the commutable regions.
Quote from: empirestate on August 25, 2021, 04:11:47 PM
The transition zone is real, and quite wide, and that's as reasonable as any a place to draw the line. The key element that keeps it Upstate, to me, is that its connectivity to New York City is occasional and transitory, not fixed into the daily fabric as it is in the commutable regions.
I actually might go so far as to say the bolded phrase defines the
transition zone, while once you get beyond that into solid upstate territory, the connectivity to NYC is even
less than that - almost strictly road trip/vacation range.
I've been starting to consider the Capital District to be downstate, or at least transition zone. We're just a two hour train ride from NYC here (and the trains run regularly and reasonably on time, unlike the rest of the Empire corridor). Culturally I feel like we have a lot more in common with the NYC area and the Hudson Valley than with Rochester/Buffalo/Syracuse, much less the more rural parts of upstate.
Quote from: vdeane on August 25, 2021, 08:59:10 PM
I've been starting to consider the Capital District to be downstate, or at least transition zone. We're just a two hour train ride from NYC here (and the trains run regularly and reasonably on time, unlike the rest of the Empire corridor). Culturally I feel like we have a lot more in common with the NYC area and the Hudson Valley than with Rochester/Buffalo/Syracuse, much less the more rural parts of upstate.
Albany is in no way downstate by any stretch of the imagination. Albany is one of the first cities I think about when I think "upstate".
Quote from: vdeane on August 25, 2021, 08:59:10 PM
I've been starting to consider the Capital District to be downstate, or at least transition zone. We're just a two hour train ride from NYC here (and the trains run regularly and reasonably on time, unlike the rest of the Empire corridor). Culturally I feel like we have a lot more in common with the NYC area and the Hudson Valley than with Rochester/Buffalo/Syracuse, much less the more rural parts of upstate.
Yes, it's palpable. (Which of course is the whole point of the question.)
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 25, 2021, 09:42:52 PM
Albany is in no way downstate by any stretch of the imagination. Albany is one of the first cities I think about when I think "upstate".
No stretching of the imagination is necessary—one can observe it directly from life. Ultimately, no, Albany will not objectively fall into the "downstate" category*, but there is undeniably some common DNA. If nothing else, it goes back to the time when New York and Albany were essentially the only European settlements in this new province. That in itself sets them apart from those areas that were originally beyond the frontier.
(And don't forget that for many people, White Plains or even Yonkers are among the first "upstate" cities they think of—but I think we've long ruled those out categorically.)
*One purely semantic reason for this is that the capital, by design, is not in the metropolis. This very fact places it in opposition to New York City and thus, by definition, in some category other than that which is defined by its association with New York City.
Quote from: vdeane on August 25, 2021, 08:59:10 PM
I've been starting to consider the Capital District to be downstate, or at least transition zone. We're just a two hour train ride from NYC here (and the trains run regularly and reasonably on time, unlike the rest of the Empire corridor). Culturally I feel like we have a lot more in common with the NYC area and the Hudson Valley than with Rochester/Buffalo/Syracuse, much less the more rural parts of upstate.
Wha...? Nah. Hudson Valley and NYC are very different from the Capital District. Albany shares more with Utica and Syracuse or Saratoga.
The Albany area certainly has a lot more East Coast influence than anything west of I-81. Part of that might come from being the capital and getting a lot of seasonal traffic from the more traditional "downstate" areas, but I also think it's at the fringe of a kind of transition zone out of the Bos-Wash corridor (as distinct from just NYC specifically) on both the north/south and east/west axes given the interstate connectivity to NYC and Boston.
There's definitely something distinct about the regions inland enough to feel separate from the true East Coast, but still within vacation/daytrip/extended commute range of the Bos-Wash corridor. You can also feel it with Harrisburg and Allentown, and to a lesser extent, Scranton. The drivers tend to be faster, there's more traffic, you see more out-of-state plates, and so on.
Quote from: Rothman on August 25, 2021, 11:58:08 PM
Quote from: vdeane on August 25, 2021, 08:59:10 PM
I've been starting to consider the Capital District to be downstate, or at least transition zone. We're just a two hour train ride from NYC here (and the trains run regularly and reasonably on time, unlike the rest of the Empire corridor). Culturally I feel like we have a lot more in common with the NYC area and the Hudson Valley than with Rochester/Buffalo/Syracuse, much less the more rural parts of upstate.
Wha...? Nah. Hudson Valley and NYC are very different from the Capital District. Albany shares more with Utica and Syracuse or Saratoga.
Daytrips to NYC are easy and common from the Capital District. They are unthinkable from Rochester/Buffalo/Syracuse.
Last year, people would wear masks on the sidewalk in the Capital District. Such was unthinkable in Buffalo, even when there was no room for social distancing. People here took longer to take off their masks, too; in Rochester, about half the people in Wegmans were mask-less within a week of the mandate lifting.
Here, a vast majority were still wearing masks in Hannaford until Cuomo declared "mission accomplished" with fireworks and giving up his emergency powers. Additionally, of the economic development regions that are not NYC/Long Island/Mid-Hudson, the Capital District was dead last in beginning to reopen.
Until recently, the Capital District was the only part of the state where any county was consistently blue outside of NYC/Westchester.
I know of upstate secessionists in most of the state (even in urban areas) - but not the Capital District, except perhaps the most rural areas.
Our decentralized land use patterns have more in common with the Hudson Valley and Long Island than with Rochester/Buffalo/Syracuse.
Heck, the very fact that I constantly use the phrase "Rochester/Buffalo/Syracuse" when talking about the metro areas of upstate - and have for all my life - excluding Albany, shows that there's a divide. Heck, prior to college, I could count of one hand the number of times I had been significantly east of I-81 on one hand with fingers left over. Heck, my parents and I didn't even know that I-890 even
existed until I spotted it on an insert map of the Albany/Schenectady/Troy area on a AAA map of the state, despite being aware of all the other "90s" in the state.
Rochester/Buffalo/Syracuse are Erie Canal towns that grew up after the American Revolution, with settlement in those areas made
illegal by the British. They were American since incorporation. Albany was founded by the Dutch a century or two earlier (and continuously incorporated since that time, passing to the British and later the US), and despite being on the Canal, is not defined by it to the same extent due to being on the Hudson.
Let's face it, Rochester/Buffalo/Syracuse and the Capital District don't have nearly as much in common as one would think.
Quote from: vdeane on August 26, 2021, 09:58:01 PM
Let's face it, Rochester/Buffalo/Syracuse and the Capital District don't have nearly as much in common as one would think.
But that doesn't necessarily mean they aren't both "upstate", right?
Quote from: kphoger on August 27, 2021, 11:45:10 AM
Quote from: vdeane on August 26, 2021, 09:58:01 PM
Let's face it, Rochester/Buffalo/Syracuse and the Capital District don't have nearly as much in common as one would think.
But that doesn't necessarily mean they aren't both "upstate", right?
I would still argue that there is more downstatedness in Albany than in Syracuse
^^This is an excellent run-down of exactly the kind of tangible factors I had in mind when posing the question.
Quote from: kphoger on August 27, 2021, 11:45:10 AM
But that doesn't necessarily mean they aren't both "upstate", right?
Right, I would say. So now the question is, if we still agree that the Capital District is not downstate, what are the significant
differences between those two regions that indicate that this is so? (And by extension, where do we draw the dividing line to most accurately delineate where those differences lie?)
Quote from: empirestate on August 27, 2021, 11:46:51 AM
^^This is an excellent run-down of exactly the kind of tangible factors I had in mind when posing the question.
Quote from: kphoger on August 27, 2021, 11:45:10 AM
But that doesn't necessarily mean they aren't both "upstate", right?
Right, I would say. So now the question is, if we still agree that the Capital District is not downstate, what are the significant differences between those two regions that indicate that this is so? (And by extension, where do we draw the dividing line to most accurately delineate where those differences lie?)
We sort-of talked about it in the beginning of the thread. Is there a line or a transition band? I would say a band is more realistic, and I would say that band includes Albany at the northern limit.
Coming from a native NYer, one of the first posters in this thread got it right. Upstate is anywhere that's not NYC, Long Island, or Westchester County. These places have the most socioeconomic connection to the city in the state, which I think is a good defining factor for what counts as "upstate" or "downstate" .
Quote from: interstatefan990 on August 27, 2021, 02:10:55 PM
Coming from a native NYer, one of the first posters in this thread got it right. Upstate is anywhere that's not NYC, Long Island, or Westchester County. These places have the most socioeconomic connection to the city in the state, which I think is a good defining factor for what counts as "upstate" or "downstate" .
Native NYCer, I assume?
Quote from: kalvado on August 27, 2021, 02:21:30 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on August 27, 2021, 02:10:55 PM
Coming from a native NYer, one of the first posters in this thread got it right. Upstate is anywhere that's not NYC, Long Island, or Westchester County. These places have the most socioeconomic connection to the city in the state, which I think is a good defining factor for what counts as "upstate" or "downstate" .
Native NYCer, I assume?
Close. Lower Westchester County. And no, my opinion isn't formed off a desire to be classified as a downstate resident. :-D
Quote from: interstatefan990 on August 27, 2021, 02:30:23 PM
Quote from: kalvado on August 27, 2021, 02:21:30 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on August 27, 2021, 02:10:55 PM
Coming from a native NYer, one of the first posters in this thread got it right. Upstate is anywhere that's not NYC, Long Island, or Westchester County. These places have the most socioeconomic connection to the city in the state, which I think is a good defining factor for what counts as "upstate" or "downstate" .
Native NYCer, I assume?
Close. Lower Westchester County. And no, my opinion isn't formed off a desire to be classified as a downstate resident. :-D
I'd say Rockland, most of Orange, and Putnam are pretty definitively downstate.
Quote from: vdeane on August 26, 2021, 09:58:01 PM
Daytrips to NYC are easy and common from the Capital District. They are unthinkable from Rochester/Buffalo/Syracuse.
I guess I am not your average person, but a day trip to the NYC area from Rochester isn't unthinkable to me. In fact, I've done such several times - granted, not to Manhattan, but to Rockland/Westchester and various parts of northern Jersey. With that said, more often than not I do end up staying overnight for at least one night when destined for somewhere in the NYC area.
I might also note that the southern Finger Lakes, especially the Watkins Glen and Ithaca areas, do get some seasonal tourist traffic from downstate and New Jersey; of course nowhere near as much as the areas north of Albany, but ironically enough it's actually pretty comparable time-wise (currently 3h 40 from NYC to Lake George and an even 4h from NYC to Ithaca).
Quote from: vdeane on August 26, 2021, 09:58:01 PM
Last year, people would wear masks on the sidewalk in the Capital District. Such was unthinkable in Buffalo, even when there was no room for social distancing. People here took longer to take off their masks, too; in Rochester, about half the people in Wegmans were mask-less within a week of the mandate lifting.
Not to open up this can of worms again, but I can confirm this as well. Western NY basically never wore masks outdoors, even at the height of the pandemic. It was really surprising (and almost kind of baffling, to be honest) to see that it was so commonplace further east.
Quote from: vdeane on August 26, 2021, 09:58:01 PM
Heck, the very fact that I constantly use the phrase "Rochester/Buffalo/Syracuse" when talking about the metro areas of upstate - and have for all my life - excluding Albany, shows that there's a divide. ...
Let's face it, Rochester/Buffalo/Syracuse and the Capital District don't have nearly as much in common as one would think.
I totally agree with your point here, but I think part of what others have been getting at is that they can be that different and still both be upstate. The difference between Western NY and the Capital District is plenty stark, but still in line with the type of variation you might see in other states. NYC, however, is truly just in a league of its own.
By that definition, one could say that NYC's suburbs have more in common with upstate than with NYC.
Quote from: interstatefan990 on August 27, 2021, 02:30:23 PM
Quote from: kalvado on August 27, 2021, 02:21:30 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on August 27, 2021, 02:10:55 PM
Coming from a native NYer, one of the first posters in this thread got it right. Upstate is anywhere that's not NYC, Long Island, or Westchester County. These places have the most socioeconomic connection to the city in the state, which I think is a good defining factor for what counts as "upstate" or "downstate" .
Native NYCer, I assume?
Close. Lower Westchester County. And no, my opinion isn't formed off a desire to be classified as a downstate resident. :-D
Well, you're definitely not upstate if you aren't calling downstate where "those other people" are. In fact, the further north/west one is, the further north one tends to consider the line. And "just NYC/Long Island/Westchester" is one of the more restrictive definitions I've ever seen. Even Cuomo put Rockland County in his definition of downstate.
Quote from: vdeane on August 27, 2021, 10:13:04 PM
By that definition, one could say that NYC's suburbs have more in common with upstate than with NYC.
I've spent quite a bit of time in NYC's suburbs, especially Rockland County, and I don't think I'd go quite that far. There's a distinct downstate feel once you get past Middletown, and NYC's influence start to feel almost palpable once you get past Harriman, from the rude drivers, to the terrible traffic, to the expensive cars, to the quaint neighborhoods.
Just like NYSDOT is OneDOT, NY is OneNY.
I'm not sure if anyone else has thought of this, but I like to divide the state by zip code ranges as follows:
10xxx, 11xxx: Downstate
12xxx, 13xxx, 14xxx: Upstate
Reckoning by this, the boundary would be around West Point - right in between Newburgh and the Bear Mountain Bridge. Seems about right.
Quote from: webny99 on August 27, 2021, 10:56:35 PM
Quote from: vdeane on August 27, 2021, 10:13:04 PM
By that definition, one could say that NYC's suburbs have more in common with upstate than with NYC.
I've spent quite a bit of time in NYC's suburbs, especially Rockland County, and I don't think I'd go quite that far. There's a distinct downstate feel once you get past Middletown, and NYC's influence start to feel almost palpable once you get past Harriman, from the rude drivers, to the terrible traffic, to the expensive cars, to the quaint neighborhoods.
NYC is pretty unique, though, and its vibe doesn't really extend into the suburbs (bar the southernmost parts of Westchester and westernmost parts of Nassau). The suburbs are definitely part of the metro area, but they're still suburbs not unlike any other suburb in the country (most especially other suburbs on the NEC).
Quote from: KCRoadFan on August 28, 2021, 01:08:08 AM
I'm not sure if anyone else has thought of this, but I like to divide the state by zip code ranges as follows:
10xxx, 11xxx: Downstate
12xxx, 13xxx, 14xxx: Upstate
Reckoning by this, the boundary would be around West Point - right in between Newburgh and the Bear Mountain Bridge. Seems about right.
That would fit with the Beat Mountain Compact the politicians have (what happens north of Bear Mountain stays north of Bear Mountain).
Quote from: vdeane on August 28, 2021, 11:04:42 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 27, 2021, 10:56:35 PM
Quote from: vdeane on August 27, 2021, 10:13:04 PM
By that definition, one could say that NYC's suburbs have more in common with upstate than with NYC.
I've spent quite a bit of time in NYC's suburbs, especially Rockland County, and I don't think I'd go quite that far. There's a distinct downstate feel once you get past Middletown, and NYC's influence start to feel almost palpable once you get past Harriman, from the rude drivers, to the terrible traffic, to the expensive cars, to the quaint neighborhoods.
NYC is pretty unique, though, and its vibe doesn't really extend into the suburbs (bar the southernmost parts of Westchester and westernmost parts of Nassau). The suburbs are definitely part of the metro area, but they're still suburbs not unlike any other suburb in the country (most especially other suburbs on the NEC).
That's fair, but the question isn't exactly whether NYC's suburbs are different than any other suburbs. It's whether they are within NYC's immediate sphere of influence such that you can identify you're in the NYC area, which I would say they certainly are.
Quote from: webny99 on August 29, 2021, 10:43:49 AM
That's fair, but the question isn't exactly whether NYC's suburbs are different than any other suburbs. It's whether they are within NYC's immediate sphere of influence such that you can identify you're in the NYC area, which I would say they certainly are.
Now it feels like we're looking at two different standards based on distance. For example, here is part of your reply where I went over how the Capital District is more influenced by NYC and different from (the rest of?) Upstate:
Quote from: webny99 on August 27, 2021, 08:20:41 PM
I totally agree with your point here, but I think part of what others have been getting at is that they can be that different and still both be upstate. The difference between Western NY and the Capital District is plenty stark, but still in line with the type of variation you might see in other states. NYC, however, is truly just in a league of its own.
So I guess we're using one standard for "immediate" sphere of influence and another for places further away. For what it's worth, Middletown and Harriman aren't even in the same MPO as NYC (OCTC vs. NYMTC).
Quote from: interstatefan990 on August 27, 2021, 02:10:55 PM
Coming from a native NYer, one of the first posters in this thread got it right. Upstate is anywhere that's not NYC, Long Island, or Westchester County. These places have the most socioeconomic connection to the city in the state, which I think is a good defining factor for what counts as "upstate" or "downstate" .
For this thread, in order for an answer to be "right" it has to be basically an argument-winner, and furthermore should be something more tangible than just "upstate is in this county but not in that county." So, if Westchester is more in the NYC sphere of influence than Rockland, for example, what's different about one side of the Tappan Zee than the other? What does Jefferson Valley have that Mahopac doesn't? (And I'm not suggesting there aren't perfectly valid answers to these questions–just that the whole idea here is to identify them.)
Quote from: vdeane on August 29, 2021, 04:03:58 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 29, 2021, 10:43:49 AM
That's fair, but the question isn't exactly whether NYC's suburbs are different than any other suburbs. It's whether they are within NYC's immediate sphere of influence such that you can identify you're in the NYC area, which I would say they certainly are.
Now it feels like we're looking at two different standards based on distance. For example, here is part of your reply where I went over how the Capital District is more influenced by NYC and different from (the rest of?) Upstate:
Quote from: webny99 on August 27, 2021, 08:20:41 PM
I totally agree with your point here, but I think part of what others have been getting at is that they can be that different and still both be upstate. The difference between Western NY and the Capital District is plenty stark, but still in line with the type of variation you might see in other states. NYC, however, is truly just in a league of its own.
So I guess we're using one standard for "immediate" sphere of influence and another for places further away. For what it's worth, Middletown and Harriman aren't even in the same MPO as NYC (OCTC vs. NYMTC).
To be completely clear here, while I originally supported using the 42nd parallel as the dividing line, I've now completely sold myself on the idea I proposed above, which is a line running from Port Jervis to the CT/MA/NY tri-point. That basically puts all the truly rural areas upstate, while keeping Westchester, Rockland, Putnam, most of Orange and Dutchess, and a sliver of Ulster downstate.
And correct me if I'm wrong, but I think everyone is in agreement that there
is a transition zone where you can find features of both upstate and downstate. I think of my definition above as the far
southern boundary of the transition zone, where anything south of said boundary is unambiguously downstate, but you can still find some downstate features north of there.
I think you could argue that the Albany area, or at least parts of it, are at the far
northern fringes of the transition zone, but for the purposes of this thought exercise, I'm classifying the entire transition zone as upstate regardless of where one thinks it's northern boundary is, so I don't think that's inconsistent with what I've said previously. I'm not sure if that sufficiently addresses your concern about there being two standards, but that's where I stand, anyway. :)
As 2020 census data has come out, here's some other metrics to measure a dividing line:
-Population growth/loss: As the trend of dwindling rural population continues, we can use which counties lost population as a measure. Using this marks Putnam, Ulster, and Dutchess as upstate (all lost population, but Ulster lost 845 people or 0.46%), but Orange and Sullivan as downstate (both gained population, though Sullivan gained a mere 1077 people or 0.9% growth). This is also assuming that Upstate is decidedly rural in nature, which has been debated in the past.
-Density: According to the Census Bureau, an urbanized area is defined as a place with 1000 or more people per square mile. It seems that 2020 census tract data for New York isn't published yet, so I'm using an image based on 2010 data. This data suggests that much of Rockland and Westchester is urbanized, with a pocket of urbanization in Newburgh-Beacon and Poughkeepsie. If we use this definition, downstate ends at Peekskill and the Harriman State Park boundary, with Poughkeepsie and Newburgh-Beacon being its own metro area. In terms of county lines, this actually marks Orange and Putnam counties as upstate.
-Demographics: Other factors such as housing prices or racial makeup could also determine where upstate begins. Assuming that upstate is mostly white (80+%, and I'm using the "white, alone" definition) with cheap housing (less than $300k), Ulster and Dutchess meet that definition. It also depends on what you consider "mostly" white and "cheap" housing. Orange almost makes the racial cut (79.8%) and meets the cheap housing cut. Putnam makes the racial cut, but not the cheap housing cut. Rockland and Westchester are definitely downstate, with a greater minority population and more expensive housing.
To conclude:
Rockland and Westchester are definitely downstate (duh, we've concluded that already)
Orange and Putnam are a transition zone, but are likely going to be part of downstate in a few years; though Putnam might take a while to catch up
Ulster and Dutchess are definitely upstate, having stagnated or lost people in the recent census due to rural flight
To me I-84 is the dividing line and there is just upstate and downstate. For most people not from New York, like myself, I think upstate NY defines everything that is not in the NYC metro area or on Long Island.
Quote from: noelbotevera on August 31, 2021, 07:14:08 PM
As 2020 census data has come out, here's some other metrics to measure a dividing line:
-Population growth/loss: As the trend of dwindling rural population continues, we can use which counties lost population as a measure. Using this marks Putnam, Ulster, and Dutchess as upstate (all lost population, but Ulster lost 845 people or 0.46%), but Orange and Sullivan as downstate (both gained population, though Sullivan gained a mere 1077 people or 0.9% growth). This is also assuming that Upstate is decidedly rural in nature, which has been debated in the past.
-Density: According to the Census Bureau, an urbanized area is defined as a place with 1000 or more people per square mile. It seems that 2020 census tract data for New York isn't published yet, so I'm using an image based on 2010 data. This data suggests that much of Rockland and Westchester is urbanized, with a pocket of urbanization in Newburgh-Beacon and Poughkeepsie. If we use this definition, downstate ends at Peekskill and the Harriman State Park boundary, with Poughkeepsie and Newburgh-Beacon being its own metro area. In terms of county lines, this actually marks Orange and Putnam counties as upstate.
-Demographics: Other factors such as housing prices or racial makeup could also determine where upstate begins. Assuming that upstate is mostly white (80+%, and I'm using the "white, alone" definition) with cheap housing (less than $300k), Ulster and Dutchess meet that definition. It also depends on what you consider "mostly" white and "cheap" housing. Orange almost makes the racial cut (79.8%) and meets the cheap housing cut. Putnam makes the racial cut, but not the cheap housing cut. Rockland and Westchester are definitely downstate, with a greater minority population and more expensive housing.
To conclude:
Rockland and Westchester are definitely downstate (duh, we've concluded that already)
Orange and Putnam are a transition zone, but are likely going to be part of downstate in a few years; though Putnam might take a while to catch up
Ulster and Dutchess are definitely upstate, having stagnated or lost people in the recent census due to rural flight
You failed to apply your measure to the entire state.
Quote from: noelbotevera on August 31, 2021, 07:14:08 PM
To conclude:
Rockland and Westchester are definitely downstate (duh, we've concluded that already)
Orange and Putnam are a transition zone, but are likely going to be part of downstate in a few years; though Putnam might take a while to catch up
Ulster and Dutchess are definitely upstate, having stagnated or lost people in the recent census due to rural flight
I don't think I could be persuaded that any of these metrics can be defining factors, because they could be used to measure proximity to any city, not just New York. And I think this has come up before in the thread–if we use population, urbanization or density based measures, you always end up including parts of Buffalo and other cities in the "downstate" category. (And depending on the exact measure, you might
exclude parts of NYC itself.)
Quote from: US 41 on August 31, 2021, 08:10:17 PM
To me I-84 is the dividing line and there is just upstate and downstate. For most people not from New York, like myself, I think upstate NY defines everything that is not in the NYC metro area or on Long Island.
Right, that's probably the assumption for many people. The purpose of this thread, though, is to take it beyond just an assumption and see if there are actual, observable characteristics–and indeed, to be able to explain to those not from New York what it actually means to be "upstate" or "downstate" in absolute terms.
Quote from: noelbotevera on August 31, 2021, 07:14:08 PM
As 2020 census data has come out, here's some other metrics to measure a dividing line:
-Population growth/loss: As the trend of dwindling rural population continues, we can use which counties lost population as a measure. Using this marks Putnam, Ulster, and Dutchess as upstate (all lost population, but Ulster lost 845 people or 0.46%), but Orange and Sullivan as downstate (both gained population, though Sullivan gained a mere 1077 people or 0.9% growth). This is also assuming that Upstate is decidedly rural in nature, which has been debated in the past.
Below is part of one of my posts from the 2020 Census thread, which provides an overview of which New York counties gained/lost population in the 2010's:
Quote from: webny99 on August 12, 2021, 10:09:53 PM
To get a bit more granular, since 2010:
-All five of NYC's boroughs grew by at least 5%
-The Long Island counties, Nassau and Suffolk, grew by 4.2% and 2.2% respectively
-Westchester County grew by 5.8%, Orange by 7.6%, and Rockland by 8.5%
-Of the remaining 52 counties, only 13 gained population, of which 10 are pretty obvious: Erie (Buffalo), Monroe (Rochester), Ontario (Rochester suburbs/exurbs), Onondaga (Syracuse), Jefferson (Watertown), Tompkins (Ithaca), Albany, Schenectady, Saratoga, Rensselaer (Albany area). The remaining 3 are oddballs: Warren (north of Albany, mostly rural, broke even with a +30 numeric increase), Hamilton (smallest county in the state with only 5,107 residents, likely a variation in seasonal residents), and Sullivan (mostly rural, but borderline NYC exurbia).
-Overall, 14 of the 15 most populous counties gained population. Dutchess is the only exception with a -0.5% loss.
With that in mind, I don't think you can say that just because a county lost population, it must be upstate; nor can you say that just because a county is rural, it must be upstate. I do, however, think that the urban/rural divide is more relevant than the population growth here, given that we tend to think of NYC's sphere of influence as extending to urbanized and suburban areas, but not the truly rural areas. Case in point: I think Sullivan County is upstate even though it grew in population. Similarly, I think Putnam and Dutchess counties are downstate even though they lost population. Ulster is a more interesting case - more on that below.
Quote from: noelbotevera on August 31, 2021, 07:14:08 PM
To conclude:
Rockland and Westchester are definitely downstate (duh, we've concluded that already)
Orange and Putnam are a transition zone, but are likely going to be part of downstate in a few years; though Putnam might take a while to catch up
Ulster and Dutchess are definitely upstate, having stagnated or lost people in the recent census due to rural flight
Yes, I think there is broad agreement about Rockland and Westchester (except maybe from people from Long Island, but they just need to get beyond NYC more often :)).
I suppose Orange could be considered somewhat of a transition zone, but much of it is fairly suburban. I'd say it's pretty solidly downstate; the Port Jervis to Boston Corner line that I've been using (as discussed upthread) puts nearly all of Orange County downstate except for Port Jervis and the town of Deerpark.
Putnam County is the one I disagree with most strongly. It's definitely downstate despite the fact that it lost population. It's east of the Hudson, which has been noted as contributing to a downstate feel, and much of it is even south of I-84, another traditional dividing line. Sure, it's not as dense as Rockland or Westchester, but it's also decidedly more developed than parts of Orange and Ulster, even in its most sparsely populated areas. And towns like Brewster and Carmel are basically just an extension of Westchester County - definitely part of the greater NYC area especially given that they're served by I-684.
I also disagree with Dutchess as an upstate county. I think anyone who has been there or spent significant time there would recognize that it is very much within NYC's sphere of influence, and Poughkeepsie in particular feels very much like a downstate city. It's got a lot more in common with the towns and cities further down the Hudson than it does with anything upstate. And even though parts of the county are very rural, contributing to its stagnant population, it's also got plenty of areas that I'd classify as suburban. The dividing line I proposed above would put (roughly) the towns of Red Hook, Rhinebeck, Milan, and Pine Plains upstate, and the rest of the county downstate. Overall, I think it's a fairly solid downstate county.
Lastly, for the big fish: Ulster County. It's definitely the most challenging to place accurately because it's so varied - extremely rural in the north and west, but suburbanized and inextricably linked to NYC in the south and east. You could think of it as part of the Hudson Valley, a downstate region
or as part of the Catskills, an upstate region. Because of that, I very tentatively classify it as upstate, given its size and how much of it is rural in nature, but it's the one county that I am most convinced should be split. Once again looking at the dividing line I proposed above, the towns of Plattekill, Marlborough, and Lloyd (Highland) would be considered downstate, and another four towns - New Paltz, Gardiner, Esopus, and Shawangunk - are right on the line; I lean toward considering those four downstate as well given their growth/development patterns, proximity to the Hudson, and suburban/exurban nature. Those seven towns combined have a 2020 population of about 73,000, so that would put the remaining 110k residents (and most of the county's land area) in upstate territory.
So I guess all of that is a long-winded way of saying that I really can't find too many holes to poke in the Port Jervis to Boston Corner dividing line, even though it doesn't neatly follow county lines (but then again, no good definition does). But if I was forced to divide by counties, I guess I'd say Suffolk, Nassau, NYC, Rockland, Westchester, Putnam, Orange and Dutchess are downstate and the other 50 counties are upstate, and if you cared to get more granular than that then you could flip the southeastern and northwestern corners of Ulster and Dutchess, respectively.
I mean, if I were to use the same criteria, I would also find that Suffolk is an upstate county, since it's not dense and isolated from the city. But that's stupid, and the only people who think it'd be upstate would be people who live in Tottenville or something.
Also, obviously including Buffalo, Syracuse, or Rochester as downstate is similarly foolish. Since the contention is the Catskills area, I might as well study the statistics behind those counties and see what the Census thinks. My analysis is far from scientific since I just threw up and defined random criteria (housing price, race, population growth).
Personally I think we've exhausted most of the approaches to define the divide: cultural, social, economic, political, etc. I believe there is no line and instead the upstate-downstate transition is gradual; it's not like I could walk into a mall in Middletown and proclaim everyone there works in the city.
Quote from: webny99 on August 31, 2021, 10:01:45 PM
Yes, I think there is broad agreement about Rockland and Westchester (except maybe from people from Long Island, but they just need to get beyond NYC more often :)).
Well, we can't always cross the East River as much as we'd like to. We're not all from the Hamptons. :-/
As for the idea of everything north of the Bronx being upstate to us Long Islanders, there's one other factor -- geology. The terrain of Westchester and Rockland (especially Rockland) counties is far more mountainous than Long Island and most of NYC, I say most, because it does spread into the Bronx, and Upper Manhattan. But it's more noticeable once you cross the Bronx County line, even in Yonkers.... make that
especially in Yonkers. I once helped some FedEx guy carry something up my driveway for a neighbor, which happens to be on a hill, and I reassured the guy he could do worse if he had lugged that item through San Francisco or Yonkers. I should've added Pittsburg to my list.
Finally in April 2019, I actually walked through the Park Hill section of Yonkers so I could capture some former Funicular railroad stations there, and I damn near killed myself just by walking up Underhill Avenue between US 9 and Alta Avenue! The hills turned out to be steeper than I ever thought they were in past drives through the city with my family!
A girl at my college said that she was from a small town in upstate New York. That town... https://www.google.com/maps/place/Pearl+River,+NY/@41.1096777,-74.1230192,9.51z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x89c2e890c570b993:0x7bd3be6686111d9b!8m2!3d41.0589855!4d-74.0218063
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on September 08, 2021, 01:51:43 PM
A girl at my college said that she was from a small town in upstate New York. That town... https://www.google.com/maps/place/Pearl+River,+NY/@41.1096777,-74.1230192,9.51z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x89c2e890c570b993:0x7bd3be6686111d9b!8m2!3d41.0589855!4d-74.0218063
The other interesting thing is the tendency of many people to refer to very large towns as small ones. Having visited many places with populations in the hundreds or a couple thousand, it never occurs to me to call any town with tens of thousands of residents "small"!
I mean come one the town is below I-287, that's for sure downstate! It borders New Jersey ffs.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on September 08, 2021, 01:51:43 PM
A girl at my college said that she was from a small town in upstate New York. That town... Pearl River, NY (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Pearl+River,+NY/@41.1096777,-74.1230192,9.51z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x89c2e890c570b993:0x7bd3be6686111d9b!8m2!3d41.0589855!4d-74.0218063)
Interesting. I have friends right in that same area and it's dense suburbia, definitely not "small" nor "upstate".
My guess is that she has ties to NYC and/or Long Island, so she's just used to hearing people call Rockland "upstate".
yet another article on the topic:
https://www.timesunion.com/hudsonvalley/travel/article/Where-does-upstate-New-York-begin-17459400.php
In addition to all the usual suspects, from 14th st to Mohawk river, there is an interesting new opinion: "Stewart's meridian"
https://locations.stewartsshops.com/
There are 3 locations south of I-84..
Saw this the other day and couldn't help but think of this thread. :sombrero:
https://twitter.com/clubmoss_/status/1772327557217566831
I'm just glad Alabama's in the top 10 for something for a good reason for once! :sombrero:
Alabama beating Tennessee on tree coverage is kind of a minor upset.