From CNN:
Still love your landline? Phone service providers are getting closer to phasing it outQuoteMore people who are still using telephone landlines will soon need to decide if they want to finally hang up on their service.
Just last week, AT&T applied for a waiver that would allow it to stop servicing traditional landlines in California. AT&T and Verizon previously stated they want to be fully operational on newer infrastructure within the next few years.
That's part of a sweeping move by phone service providers to replace older copper wire-based telephone systems lines, also known as Plain Old Telephone Service (POTS), with faster and more advanced technology that doesn't work with landlines.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2ty)
Quote from: ZLoth on February 06, 2024, 07:14:53 AM
From CNN:
Still love your landline? Phone service providers are getting closer to phasing it outQuoteMore people who are still using telephone landlines will soon need to decide if they want to finally hang up on their service.
Just last week, AT&T applied for a waiver that would allow it to stop servicing traditional landlines in California. AT&T and Verizon previously stated they want to be fully operational on newer infrastructure within the next few years.
That's part of a sweeping move by phone service providers to replace older copper wire-based telephone systems lines, also known as Plain Old Telephone Service (POTS), with faster and more advanced technology that doesn't work with landlines.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2ty)
The CA PUC, before it even considers ATT's request, needs to subpoena ATT for information on how many of their CA landline customers have either just POTS, or POTS combined with slow DSL. If it's at least 500K, the CA PUC needs to mandate a service conversion plan.
In one way, I still have sentimental feelings for landlines attached to cords, but practically speaking, I'm happy to leave them behind.
I kind of like the idea of seeing old telephone wires and poles come down. But, like the article points out, copper's pretty essential in rural areas outside the reach of fiber optic and cell coverage.
When fiber is ubiquitous everywhere that copper traditionally reached, then I'd say it's time. There are still some holdouts in some areas, but generally it's the areas that are underserved by cell and fiber providers. We're nearing the point in which we could mandate that in order for them to shut off service, but they need to pay into a fund that enables the remainder of those not feasibly served by fiber and cell service to get something like Starlink with a cell base station connected to their Internet service. This should only be for pre-existing copper customers, not those choosing to live offgrid somewhere remote. They can connect on their own dime with Starlink or something comparable.
I want mobile-only with my phone service back in December, 2003, and when we moved five years ago, my mother imovied to mobile only. Part of the reason why the telcos want to move away from copper lines is because of the costs associated with such a aging infrastruction and the regulations/tariffs associated with traditional phone lines verses providing phone service via a VoIP adapter.
Quote from: Rothman on February 06, 2024, 08:06:51 AM
I kind of like the idea of seeing old telephone wires and poles come down. But, like the article points out, copper's pretty essential in rural areas outside the reach of fiber optic and cell coverage.
Those poles carry more than just phone lines. They probably won't be going anywhere as they tend to carry electric lines and fiber optic lines.
Anyone I know (self included) that has a landline it is fiber, which technically isn't a landline but for functional purposes it is the same.
Quote from: Rothman on February 06, 2024, 08:06:51 AM
I kind of like the idea of seeing old telephone wires and poles come down
As was just noted, the poles themselves probably carry more than just the old copper (POTS) lines. In many places where fiber has been installed, it seems that if the old copper was above-ground, then the fiber is probably also strung above ground as well - needing the poles, even if they are not shared with any other utility. It is possible they could remove unused/de-activated copper trunks from poles, but if no one (PUC, gov't entities) forces them to, I doubt they'd spend the money on the labor to do that.
Actually, with the FiOS that Verizon has strung in the Pittsburgh metro region, they lashed a lot of it to an existing copper run (though some got new aerial conduit), so even if the copper can be turned off at some point, I doubt they'll restring the fiber to it's own messenger wire.
Of course, some companies in Western PA have done Fiber-To-The-Home stringing fiber to brand new messenger wire, so while they'll obviously still need the poles, at some point they could rip all the copper down.
While copper is a recyclable item that does bring in some money, the labor costs don't make it worthwhile.
Quote from: SectorZ on February 06, 2024, 03:18:11 PM
Anyone I know (self included) that has a landline it is fiber, which technically isn't a landline but for functional purposes it is the same.
Power blackouts. If you have a plain old telephone it will get enough power to operate from the battery power at the exchange. But your fiber to voice adapter needs grid power, and your cell phone needs a tower that has power to connect to.
Quote from: kkt on February 06, 2024, 03:51:55 PMBut your fiber to voice adapter needs grid power, and your cell phone needs a tower that has power to connect to.
The cell tower is often equipped with battery backups, and a UPS for that VoIP adapter and associated Internet gateway isn't that much.
You say there's my retirement copper just hanging out on poles, now?
Quote from: ZLoth on February 06, 2024, 05:14:15 PM
Quote from: kkt on February 06, 2024, 03:51:55 PMBut your fiber to voice adapter needs grid power, and your cell phone needs a tower that has power to connect to.
The cell tower is often equipped with battery backups, and a UPS for that VoIP adapter and associated Internet gateway isn't that much.
I have 12 hrs backup battery for my Fios landline. Any power outage I've had hasn't resulted in my cell service going out. I do miss the convenience of copper phone lines not going out with the power, but the last time I had a lengthy power outage (Fitchburg MA Dec. 2008 with the ice storm) my copper landline was out longer than my electricity.
We have no telephone poles in our immediate area. All of that was buried when they built my neighborhood in the mid '90s. That didn't mean we didn't get power failures from time to time when trees (or a small airplane, about 14 months ago) fell on the above-ground lines that feed us.
Our local power company did a good job over the years of paring back the older trees, and we get power failures far less often than 10-20 years ago.
Yes we still have a landline. No I don't love it, but it comes in handy when I don't want to give people my cell phone number (people who would legitimately need to get ahold of me).
Quote from: ZLoth on February 06, 2024, 03:48:21 PM
While copper is a recyclable item that does bring in some money, the labor costs don't make it worthwhile.
Why not use that copper in jewelry and use it to make some rose gold? Rose gold is an alloy of gold and copper.
Quote from: kkt on February 06, 2024, 03:51:55 PM
Power blackouts. If you have a plain old telephone it will get enough power to operate from the battery power at the exchange. But your fiber to voice adapter needs grid power, and your cell phone needs a tower that has power to connect to.
A POTS telephone will get powered from the exchange only if it's landline all the way back to the exchange.
I was under the impression that increasingly, the landline providers are using fiber, and then converting to traditional copper for the last stretch to the customer. The power is coming from the point where the transition from fiber to copper is made.
I assume that there are backup batteries at those transition points, but....
FWIW, I made the switch from landline to VOIP several years ago. Cell reception at my house is lousy, and I was WFH before pandemic lockdowns shifted business calls to Teams and Zoom, so when I discovered that VOIP was so much cheaper than landline....
Quote from: Pink Jazz on February 06, 2024, 07:09:52 PM
Quote from: ZLoth on February 06, 2024, 03:48:21 PM
While copper is a recyclable item that does bring in some money, the labor costs don't make it worthwhile.
Why not use that copper in jewelry and use it to make some rose gold? Rose gold is an alloy of gold and copper.
Also use the copper a part of the alloys that are needed to make new $2 and $5 coins, as well as enough $1 coins, to replace the same denominations of banknotes that are now in circulation, whenever the current inflation is brought under control.
Mike
From Ars Technica:
"Don't let them drop us!" Landline users protest AT&T copper retirement plan
California hears protests as AT&T seeks end to Carrier of Last Resort obligation.QuoteAT&T's application to end its landline phone obligations in California is drawing protest from residents as state officials consider whether to let AT&T off the hook.
AT&T filed an application to end its Carrier of Last Resort (COLR) obligation in March 2023. The first of several public hearings on the application is being held today by the California Public Utilities Commission (CPUC), which is considering AT&T's request. An evidentiary hearing has been scheduled for April, and a proposed decision is expected in September.
AT&T has said it won't cut off phone service immediately, but ending the COLR obligation would make it easier for AT&T to drop its phone lines later on. AT&T's application said it would provide basic phone service in all areas for at least six months and indefinitely in areas without any alternative voice service.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2024/02/dont-let-them-drop-us-landline-users-protest-att-copper-retirement-plan/)
There are definitely places, even in highly populated areas, where it's not feasible to use a mobile phone as your primary phone because of signal issues. My mother, for example, lives here in Fairfax County a short distance west of the Beltway (that is, not in the more rural-feeling areas further out), but cellular service (voice or data) is almost nonexistent at her house. You can't get a cellular signal indoors for some reason—if you want to make a phone call on a mobile phone, you need to go outside and you might then get one bar. No idea whether it's because she lives at the bottom of a hill or what. But if someone in a heavily populated area like Fairfax County has an issue like that, surely it's considerably more of an issue in other places.
My mother does have Verizon fiber-optic service for her home phone, Internet, and TV, though, so it's not like she's one of the copper-line users. I cite her situation just to emphasize that there are very good practical reasons, unrelated to simple personal preference, why going "mobile-only" is not always viable.
Quote from: ZLoth on February 06, 2024, 03:48:21 PM
While copper is a recyclable item that does bring in some money, the labor costs don't make it worthwhile.
I don't know, thieves in Detroit somehow made money off of stealing copper from street light poles. While the power was live.
Loss of a landline means loss of FAX capability.
Quote from: GaryV on February 07, 2024, 07:56:40 AM
Quote from: ZLoth on February 06, 2024, 03:48:21 PM
While copper is a recyclable item that does bring in some money, the labor costs don't make it worthwhile.
I don't know, thieves in Detroit somehow made money off of stealing copper from street light poles. While the power was live.
Because they effectively got less than minimum wage, without benefits, insurance, or proper safety precautions.
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 07, 2024, 07:46:18 AMThere are definitely places, even in highly populated areas, where it's not feasible to use a mobile phone as your primary phone because of signal issues. My mother, for example, lives here in Fairfax County a short distance west of the Beltway (that is, not in the more rural-feeling areas further out), but cellular service (voice or data) is almost nonexistent at her house. You can't get a cellular signal indoors for some reason—if you want to make a phone call on a mobile phone, you need to go outside and you might then get one bar. No idea whether it's because she lives at the bottom of a hill or what. But if someone in a heavily populated area like Fairfax County has an issue like that, surely it's considerably more of an issue in other places.
One option here is to go into the settings of the mobile phone and activate the "WiFi Calling" option. In addition, she may want to call her carrier and ask if they can supply her with a device that acts as a mobile access point for mobile devices.
POTS is way more reliable than cellphone service where I live. That is why I keep it.
Quote from: 02 Park Ave on February 07, 2024, 08:45:29 AM
Loss of a landline means loss of FAX capability.
Only if you use a standalone fax machine. There are various e-fax workarounds that serve well enough for most purposes, though there are certainly exceptions.
We still have a landline for my mom-in-law who shares the house with us. It's more for convenience for her when we are off at work.
It's bad enough she barely knows how to work the cordless phone as she is 83. Giving her a cellphone and showing her how to work it is nearly impossible.
Quote from: 02 Park Ave on February 07, 2024, 08:45:29 AM
Loss of a landline means loss of FAX capability.
Dang I thought fax machines were phased out back in the early/mid 2000's once DSL and Cable internet access started to become widespread.
Quote from: bing101 on February 07, 2024, 11:20:25 AM
Quote from: 02 Park Ave on February 07, 2024, 08:45:29 AM
Loss of a landline means loss of FAX capability.
Dang I thought fax machines were phased out back in the early/mid 2000's once DSL and Cable internet access started to become widespread.
Some US government agencies are absolutely adamant about using faxes if you don't want to mail them something.
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 07, 2024, 11:28:57 AM
Quote from: bing101 on February 07, 2024, 11:20:25 AM
Quote from: 02 Park Ave on February 07, 2024, 08:45:29 AM
Loss of a landline means loss of FAX capability.
Dang I thought fax machines were phased out back in the early/mid 2000's once DSL and Cable internet access started to become widespread.
Some US government agencies are absolutely adamant about using faxes if you don't want to mail them something.
And banks. If you want to see an entity other than the government use antiquated systems, look at banks.
Quote from: nexus73 on February 07, 2024, 10:22:35 AM
POTS is way more reliable than cellphone service where I live. That is why I keep it.
It may certainly be the case. question is about aging infrastructure and increasing maintenance cost with dropping coverage. Are you willing to pay full price of an operation of landline? It was certainly easier when landlines were everywhere and costs were divided between larger groups.
Smart approach would be to have cell coverage as a condition of dropping landline, waived if community doesn't want any towers
Quote from: GaryV on February 07, 2024, 07:56:40 AM
Quote from: ZLoth on February 06, 2024, 03:48:21 PM
While copper is a recyclable item that does bring in some money, the labor costs don't make it worthwhile.
I don't know, thieves in Detroit somehow made money off of stealing copper from street light poles. While the power was live.
That happens a lot in OKC too. It's super noticeable because then the city and OG&E pass the buck back and forth forever on whose job it is to fix it and the streets stay dark.
How about a compromise? Still require the companies to have wired service to every home, but allow them to phase out the ancient copper in favor of modern fiber (which would also carry broadband). This would let the phone companies stop maintaining two systems, make broadband more accessible, and continue to keep service other than wireless available.
We still have a fax in my office. It mainly prints off spam once a week or so.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 07, 2024, 11:31:55 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 07, 2024, 11:28:57 AM
Quote from: bing101 on February 07, 2024, 11:20:25 AM
Quote from: 02 Park Ave on February 07, 2024, 08:45:29 AM
Loss of a landline means loss of FAX capability.
Dang I thought fax machines were phased out back in the early/mid 2000's once DSL and Cable internet access started to become widespread.
Some US government agencies are absolutely adamant about using faxes if you don't want to mail them something.
And banks. If you want to see an entity other than the government use antiquated systems, look at banks.
And medical offices.
Quote from: ZLoth on February 06, 2024, 05:14:15 PM
Quote from: kkt on February 06, 2024, 03:51:55 PMBut your fiber to voice adapter needs grid power, and your cell phone needs a tower that has power to connect to.
The cell tower is often equipped with battery backups, and a UPS for that VoIP adapter and associated Internet gateway isn't that much.
Cell sites have always had battery backup, at the very least, inside the equipment shelters, and I know from experience that all Verizon and T-Mobile cell sites have backup generators. So these days there is very little risk of a cell site power outage during a long term loss of commercial power (assuming the fuel tank is regularly filled up).
Despite all of this, I still feel nostalgic about POTS lines and wish there were a way to keep them running forever. The power systems inside telco central offices that keep the lines up and running are simply amazing. Working around all of this equipment for the past 25+ years has certainly given me a different perspective than most of the general public. Sure, those same power systems are used for all of the newer fiber optic equipment, which is also super reliable, but the old POTS equipment was simply built during a different time and built to last.
Quote from: ClassicHasClass on February 07, 2024, 12:59:13 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 07, 2024, 11:31:55 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 07, 2024, 11:28:57 AM
Quote from: bing101 on February 07, 2024, 11:20:25 AM
Quote from: 02 Park Ave on February 07, 2024, 08:45:29 AM
Loss of a landline means loss of FAX capability.
Dang I thought fax machines were phased out back in the early/mid 2000's once DSL and Cable internet access started to become widespread.
Some US government agencies are absolutely adamant about using faxes if you don't want to mail them something.
And banks. If you want to see an entity other than the government use antiquated systems, look at banks.
And medical offices.
It beats some of the modern alternatives. My wife and I potentially had our bank accounts compromised so we've been in a bit of a scramble this past week closing the accounts, opening new ones at a different bank, and updating all our automatic bill payments. One of the latter is a monthly transfer to my investment provider. They sent me a secure e-mail with the updated withdrawal agreement that I was supposed to digitally sign and then click a button to securely send it back to them. Clicking the button to set up a digital signature took me to a completely different website. So there's the height of irony: In the course of recovering from a muck-up caused by a breach, my financial advisor expects I'm supposed to trust this unknown website with my personal data as part of the fix. Screw that; let me print out the form on a dead tree, sign it in ink, and fax it to you. Better yet, I'll drive out there to hand-deliver it.
Quote from: wriddle082 on February 07, 2024, 01:24:42 PMDespite all of this, I still feel nostalgic about POTS lines and wish there were a way to keep them running forever. The power systems inside telco central offices that keep the lines up and running are simply amazing. Working around all of this equipment for the past 25+ years has certainly given me a different perspective than most of the general public. Sure, those same power systems are used for all of the newer fiber optic equipment, which is also super reliable, but the old POTS equipment was simply built during a different time and built to last.
Oh yes. Unless you are dealing with "last mile" technology, the communications at the telco backends is all digital so that they can squeeze multiple conversations onto a single fiber link.
I'm also aware of Internet Fax services which allow you to send/receive faxes over the Internet. One such service has, for $84 per year, allows you to send/receive 200 pages per month with unlimited fax storage (https://www.fax.plus/pricing) on their most basic plan.
Quote from: kkt on February 06, 2024, 03:51:55 PM
Power blackouts. If you have a plain old telephone it will get enough power to operate from the battery power at the exchange. But your fiber to voice adapter needs grid power, and your cell phone needs a tower that has power to connect to.
From my perspective working for a phone company... Only if (a) your plain old telephone service is analog signal coming into your house via NIU, or (b) your plain old telephone is digital signal coming into your house via coax and your eMTA has a battery backup. In my neck of the woods, for example, Cox has already phased out all NIUs as of a couple of years ago, and they haven't provided battery backup for eMTAs except by special request for years. (I don't even think the most recent gateways even have a slot for a battery at all.)
Quote from: ZLoth on February 07, 2024, 01:48:51 PM
Quote from: wriddle082 on February 07, 2024, 01:24:42 PMDespite all of this, I still feel nostalgic about POTS lines and wish there were a way to keep them running forever. The power systems inside telco central offices that keep the lines up and running are simply amazing. Working around all of this equipment for the past 25+ years has certainly given me a different perspective than most of the general public. Sure, those same power systems are used for all of the newer fiber optic equipment, which is also super reliable, but the old POTS equipment was simply built during a different time and built to last.
Oh yes. Unless you are dealing with "last mile" technology, the communications at the telco backends is all digital so that they can squeeze multiple conversations onto a single fiber link.
I'm also aware of Internet Fax services which allow you to send/receive faxes over the Internet. One such service has, for $84 per year, allows you to send/receive 200 pages per month with unlimited fax storage (https://www.fax.plus/pricing) on their most basic plan.
This is me clearly not fully understanding the intricacies of faxing, but isn't an "internet fax" an email with an attachment?
Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 07, 2024, 03:25:04 PM
Quote from: ZLoth on February 07, 2024, 01:48:51 PM
I'm also aware of Internet Fax services which allow you to send/receive faxes over the Internet. One such service has, for $84 per year, allows you to send/receive 200 pages per month with unlimited fax storage (https://www.fax.plus/pricing) on their most basic plan.
This is me clearly not fully understanding the intricacies of faxing, but isn't an "internet fax" an email with an attachment?
Some financial and legal firms won't accept documents via email due to it being not secure enough (or it could be inertia). Several times I've had to use an "internet fax service" to "fax" what should be an email attachment of a PDF to another Fax recipient.
Quote from: zzcarp on February 07, 2024, 03:31:53 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 07, 2024, 03:25:04 PM
Quote from: ZLoth on February 07, 2024, 01:48:51 PM
I'm also aware of Internet Fax services which allow you to send/receive faxes over the Internet. One such service has, for $84 per year, allows you to send/receive 200 pages per month with unlimited fax storage (https://www.fax.plus/pricing) on their most basic plan.
This is me clearly not fully understanding the intricacies of faxing, but isn't an "internet fax" an email with an attachment?
Some financial and legal firms won't accept documents via email due to it being not secure enough (or it could be inertia). Several times I've had to use an "internet fax service" to "fax" what should be an email attachment of a PDF to another Fax recipient.
Encrypted email no good either?
Quote from: zzcarp on February 07, 2024, 03:31:53 PMSome financial and legal firms won't accept documents via email due to it being not secure enough (or it could be inertia).
Some of the more senior partners tend to be technological "dinosaurs" because they can afford to be technological dinosaurs.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 07, 2024, 03:33:58 PM
Quote from: zzcarp on February 07, 2024, 03:31:53 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 07, 2024, 03:25:04 PM
Quote from: ZLoth on February 07, 2024, 01:48:51 PM
I'm also aware of Internet Fax services which allow you to send/receive faxes over the Internet. One such service has, for $84 per year, allows you to send/receive 200 pages per month with unlimited fax storage (https://www.fax.plus/pricing) on their most basic plan.
This is me clearly not fully understanding the intricacies of faxing, but isn't an "internet fax" an email with an attachment?
Some financial and legal firms won't accept documents via email due to it being not secure enough (or it could be inertia). Several times I've had to use an "internet fax service" to "fax" what should be an email attachment of a PDF to another Fax recipient.
Encrypted email no good either?
Do most people even know that's a thing and how to do it? Or even that regular email isn't secure?
Quote from: vdeane on February 07, 2024, 09:27:16 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 07, 2024, 03:33:58 PM
Quote from: zzcarp on February 07, 2024, 03:31:53 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 07, 2024, 03:25:04 PM
Quote from: ZLoth on February 07, 2024, 01:48:51 PM
I'm also aware of Internet Fax services which allow you to send/receive faxes over the Internet. One such service has, for $84 per year, allows you to send/receive 200 pages per month with unlimited fax storage (https://www.fax.plus/pricing) on their most basic plan.
This is me clearly not fully understanding the intricacies of faxing, but isn't an "internet fax" an email with an attachment?
Some financial and legal firms won't accept documents via email due to it being not secure enough (or it could be inertia). Several times I've had to use an "internet fax service" to "fax" what should be an email attachment of a PDF to another Fax recipient.
Encrypted email no good either?
Do most people even know that's a thing and how to do it? Or even that regular email isn't secure?
I mean, if people can explain how to e-fax things, they can explain encrypted email.
If the phone companies are so hellbent on ending landline services forever, then why are we getting commercials for closed-captioning phones? Something doesn't seem right to me.
A LOT of businesses still use some form of hard-wired phones.
Mike
Sounds like phone service providers are getting farther away from phasing unless they're just shooting to stun.
Quote from: mgk920 on February 08, 2024, 01:21:07 AM
A LOT of businesses still use some form of hard-wired phones.
Mike
The vast majority of which are IP based...
Quote from: MikieTimT on February 06, 2024, 08:27:05 AM
This should only be for pre-existing copper customers, not those choosing to live offgrid somewhere remote. They can connect on their own dime with Starlink or something comparable.
Why should there even be a distinction. I agree that people shouldn't be discriminated against based on where they are from, but freedom of movement is also important - someone who was born in and stayed in place X their whole lives should not be given government advantages over someone who was born in and/or stayed outside place X and now wants to move to place X .
Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 07, 2024, 03:25:04 PM
Quote from: ZLoth on February 07, 2024, 01:48:51 PM
Quote from: wriddle082 on February 07, 2024, 01:24:42 PMDespite all of this, I still feel nostalgic about POTS lines and wish there were a way to keep them running forever. The power systems inside telco central offices that keep the lines up and running are simply amazing. Working around all of this equipment for the past 25+ years has certainly given me a different perspective than most of the general public. Sure, those same power systems are used for all of the newer fiber optic equipment, which is also super reliable, but the old POTS equipment was simply built during a different time and built to last.
Oh yes. Unless you are dealing with "last mile" technology, the communications at the telco backends is all digital so that they can squeeze multiple conversations onto a single fiber link.
I'm also aware of Internet Fax services which allow you to send/receive faxes over the Internet. One such service has, for $84 per year, allows you to send/receive 200 pages per month with unlimited fax storage (https://www.fax.plus/pricing) on their most basic plan.
This is me clearly not fully understanding the intricacies of faxing, but isn't an "internet fax" an email with an attachment?
From what I understand, that's a bit of an oversimplification. Suppose I had an e-fax number and I needed to deal with the IRS, which is one of the government agencies that is into faxes. If I needed to send them a fax, I could use my e-fax account and it would send it to their fax machine, where it prints out on paper. If they were to send me a fax (which they don't normally do), it would go to the e-fax server and then be e-mailed to me. At least, that's my understanding from someone I know who has used one of those services in the past. The time I did need to send a fax to the IRS, I went to the nearest UPS Store. While I had a fax machine at home (I no longer do), it was an inkjet, the ink had dried up, and it was cheaper to pay the UPS Store to send even a 30-page fax than it was to buy a new ink cartridge.
Quote from: ran4sh on February 08, 2024, 07:13:07 AM
Quote from: MikieTimT on February 06, 2024, 08:27:05 AM
This should only be for pre-existing copper customers, not those choosing to live offgrid somewhere remote. They can connect on their own dime with Starlink or something comparable.
Why should there even be a distinction. I agree that people shouldn't be discriminated against based on where they are from, but freedom of movement is also important - someone who was born in and stayed in place X their whole lives should not be given government advantages over someone who was born in and/or stayed outside place X and now wants to move to place X .
Because most industries have the concept of "Grandfathering" where they slowly phase out services that long time customers rely on. If someone relocates, unless it's within the same service area, by definition they cease to be a long time customer. IP desk phones and mobile should suffice for nearly all use cases nowadays for residential usage. I have business clients in the medical and legal industries that still have POTS lines to keep the fax portion of their copiers going, but eFax is used with much more regularity when dealing with other doctors offices or the IRS. It's all due to inertia more than actual security nowadays. A fax machine does not encrypt anything, rather just sends a TIFF file via an analog signal, which in all likelihood gets converted to digital and encrypted for some portion of transit before decryption and reconversion to analog, or just becomes an attachment in an email if eFaxing is what's actually used on the other end, so tell me how that's any better than an email sent SSL/TLS between the 2 email systems?
Quote from: ran4sh on February 08, 2024, 07:13:07 AM
Quote from: MikieTimT on February 06, 2024, 08:27:05 AM
This should only be for pre-existing copper customers, not those choosing to live offgrid somewhere remote. They can connect on their own dime with Starlink or something comparable.
Why should there even be a distinction. I agree that people shouldn't be discriminated against based on where they are from, but freedom of movement is also important - someone who was born in and stayed in place X their whole lives should not be given government advantages over someone who was born in and/or stayed outside place X and now wants to move to place X .
Except for there is genuine society's interest in keeping certain businesses in remote areas. This includes agriculture, mining, logging, maintenance of long haul communication (rail, road, pipelines) etc.
Saying those people may just move and not provide them basic services isn't in anyone's interest.
Quote from: on_wisconsin on February 08, 2024, 03:52:11 AM
Quote from: mgk920 on February 08, 2024, 01:21:07 AM
A LOT of businesses still use some form of hard-wired phones.
The vast majority of which are IP based...
For what it's worth, the company I work for does contract work for the phone company, and our office phones are all VoIP. The mainline was converted to fiber a year or two ago, but the drop from there to the office is still coax, and each desk phone basically functions as a modem. We haven't used traditional landline phone service here at the office in years.
(Actually... hmmmmm... I see now that we still have two active phone lines on an old four-port eMTA for some reason. I just asked the owner of the company, and he doesn't know why, and nobody who would actually have the answer is in right now. Maybe we need it for the security system, maybe it saves us money as part of a bundle, or who knows what. Definitely going to ask about that.)
From Wired:
Landline Phone Owners Are Protesting AT&T's Plans to Drop Service
In California, AT&T is designated as the Carrier of Last Resort. The fight is on to keep it that way.QuoteAT&T's application to end its landline phone obligations in California is drawing protest from residents as state officials consider whether to let AT&T off the hook.
AT&T filed an application to end its Carrier of Last Resort (COLR) obligation in March 2023. The first of several public hearings on the application is being held today by the California Public Utilities Commission (CPUC), which is considering AT&T's request. An evidentiary hearing has been scheduled for April, and a proposed decision is expected in September.
AT&T has said it won't cut off phone service immediately, but ending the COLR obligation would make it easier for AT&T to drop its phone lines later on. AT&T's application said it would provide basic phone service in all areas for at least six months, and indefinitely in areas without any alternative voice service.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://www.wired.com/story/att-landline-california-complaints/)
Quote from: kkt on February 06, 2024, 03:51:55 PMPower blackouts. If you have a plain old telephone it will get enough power to operate from the battery power at the exchange. But your fiber to voice adapter needs grid power, and your cell phone needs a tower that has power to connect to.
It also comes down to costs and convenience. How much of a price premium are you willing to pay for that POTS service in comparison to VoIP as an addition to your Internet service? I can currently add VoIP phone service to my internet plan for $25 per month including "Unlimited nationwide calling within the U.S. and to Canada, Mexico, Puerto Rico, the U.S. Virgin Islands, Guam, and the Northern Marianas", while an additional $10 per month gives you "Unlimited calling to over 50 countries including Canada and Mexico". Also, in August 2022, the FCC issued an order that no longer requires providers to offer landline service. I just tried searching for traditional landline service for my area... and failed.
Quote from: ZLoth on February 09, 2024, 02:21:20 PM
I just tried searching for traditional landline service for my area... and failed.
Your location says Richardson, TX. Doesn't Spectrum offer home phone service there?
Quote from: kphoger on February 09, 2024, 02:42:00 PM
Quote from: ZLoth on February 09, 2024, 02:21:20 PM
I just tried searching for traditional landline service for my area... and failed.
Your location says Richardson, TX. Doesn't Spectrum offer home phone service there?
I keep getting ads for bundled cable TV/internet/voice service from Spectrum, several mailings per week, but I have always had zero interest in signing up with them (How much $$$ have they wasted so far trying to get me to go with them???). I don't even know if AT&T still offers new 'legacy' landline service here (Appleton, WI) , but their rate pricing in recent years points to them actively trying to get out of that business.
Mike
Quote from: ZLoth on February 09, 2024, 01:53:36 PM
From Wired:
Landline Phone Owners Are Protesting AT&T's Plans to Drop Service
In California, AT&T is designated as the Carrier of Last Resort. The fight is on to keep it that way.QuoteAT&T's application to end its landline phone obligations in California is drawing protest from residents as state officials consider whether to let AT&T off the hook.
AT&T filed an application to end its Carrier of Last Resort (COLR) obligation in March 2023. The first of several public hearings on the application is being held today by the California Public Utilities Commission (CPUC), which is considering AT&T's request. An evidentiary hearing has been scheduled for April, and a proposed decision is expected in September.
AT&T has said it won't cut off phone service immediately, but ending the COLR obligation would make it easier for AT&T to drop its phone lines later on. AT&T's application said it would provide basic phone service in all areas for at least six months, and indefinitely in areas without any alternative voice service.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://www.wired.com/story/att-landline-california-complaints/)
Yes the article says rural areas are affected by this landline POTS issue. However in California we have Comcast, Charter, Cox, Verizon and T-Mobile step in as alternatives but they are not affected by the Carrier of Last Resort issue like AT&T is dealing with.
Quote from: kphoger on February 09, 2024, 02:42:00 PMQuote from: ZLoth on February 09, 2024, 02:21:20 PMI just tried searching for traditional landline service for my area... and failed.
Your location says Richardson, TX. Doesn't Spectrum offer home phone service there?
As I stated, "traditional" landline service aka POTS which is a line from my home to the switching office. Spectrum does offer Internet and Mobile phone service, but not VoIP service. Also, their gigabit service only offers gigabit download, not upload. That's important when you upload backups while you are sleeping. That's one of the reasons I switched from Spectrum to AT&T Internet, the other is that AT&T Fiber was cheaper.
Yes, I'm late to this tangent....
Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 07, 2024, 09:29:30 PM
I mean, if people can explain how to e-fax things, they can explain encrypted email.
The problem with encrypted email is that you either have to exchange keys (assuming compatible email programs), or you're left with the recipient being asked to click a link, opening the door to the email being intercepted and there not being enough security around who can access the material OR your link being confused with phishing/spam.
An eFax mostly Just Works. You still have to know how to send it, but on the recipient's side...it's uniform-to-them and set up however their tech folks have set it up.
I keep an eFax account live mostly for medical and insurance purposes, although as my/my wife's doctors have mostly moved to MyChart, and the last couple of interactions I've had with insurance have offered their own secure sites to upload communications/documents to, I think even eFax's days are numbered.
Two things are clear to me.
- There are lots of places where neither "good" internet (or any internet) service, nor a cell phone service exist.
- No one, in either party, at any level, anywhere, gives a d*** about the people that live there.
Quote from: SP Cook on February 10, 2024, 12:39:36 PM
Two things are clear to me.
- There are lots of places where neither "good" internet (or any internet) service, nor a cell phone service exist.
- No one, in either party, at any level, anywhere, gives a d*** about the people that live there.
One piece of the puzzle you are missing: US is no longer a rich country which could afford building and maintaining copper spaghetti.
Correct approach is, of course, not trying to maintain ancient things but consider how new technology can work. Which possibly may include installation of towers on high points in the area. Communities getting heart attack from such an assault on the scenic view should be allowed to pay full maintenance price for copper lines.
Quote from: kalvado on February 10, 2024, 01:36:54 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on February 10, 2024, 12:39:36 PM
Two things are clear to me.
- There are lots of places where neither "good" internet (or any internet) service, nor a cell phone service exist.
- No one, in either party, at any level, anywhere, gives a d*** about the people that live there.
One piece of the puzzle you are missing: US is no longer a rich country which could afford building and maintaining copper spaghetti.
Enlighten us on which 'rich countries' still string copper wiring around.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 10, 2024, 02:52:49 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 10, 2024, 01:36:54 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on February 10, 2024, 12:39:36 PM
Two things are clear to me.
- There are lots of places where neither "good" internet (or any internet) service, nor a cell phone service exist.
- No one, in either party, at any level, anywhere, gives a d*** about the people that live there.
One piece of the puzzle you are missing: US is no longer a rich country which could afford building and maintaining copper spaghetti.
Enlighten us on which 'rich countries' still string copper wiring around.
USA in 70s and 80s, for example.
Quote from: kalvado on February 10, 2024, 02:56:20 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 10, 2024, 02:52:49 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 10, 2024, 01:36:54 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on February 10, 2024, 12:39:36 PM
Two things are clear to me.
- There are lots of places where neither "good" internet (or any internet) service, nor a cell phone service exist.
- No one, in either party, at any level, anywhere, gives a d*** about the people that live there.
One piece of the puzzle you are missing: US is no longer a rich country which could afford building and maintaining copper spaghetti.
Enlighten us on which 'rich countries' still string copper wiring around.
USA in 70s and 80s, for example.
So, the technology of the time.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 07, 2024, 03:33:58 PM
Quote from: zzcarp on February 07, 2024, 03:31:53 PM
Some financial and legal firms won't accept documents via email due to it being not secure enough (or it could be inertia). Several times I've had to use an "internet fax service" to "fax" what should be an email attachment of a PDF to another Fax recipient.
Encrypted email no good either?
It's generally allowed, but some places have not invested in setting it up. Most likely because they don't want to spend money on a new system that most of their customers probably don't know how to use. And it just makes messes if a customer sends something via unencrypted email that they're not supposed to. Requiring they fax it prevents such mistakes.
As far as ripping out telephone lines, it is worth noting that this does not mean no more landlines, it just means you need to switch to VoIP. The drawback of this, as others have pointed out, is that service uptime takes a hit because a VoIP phone won't still work during a power outage unless you have a local source of backup power. But, pragmatically speaking, it's not really worth the expense of maintaining a redundant legacy system that the most people already don't use anymore anyway just for that marginal benefit.
Quote from: Duke87 on February 10, 2024, 03:20:51 PM
As far as ripping out telephone lines, it is worth noting that this does not mean no more landlines, it just means you need to switch to VoIP. The drawback of this, as others have pointed out, is that service uptime takes a hit because a VoIP phone won't still work during a power outage unless you have a local source of backup power. But, pragmatically speaking, it's not really worth the expense of maintaining a redundant legacy system that the most people already don't use anymore anyway just for that marginal benefit.
Especially if said benefit is probably oversold these days. If the utility pole carrying your electricity and phone service goes down, the landline won't save you. If the phone network has been replaced with fiber for everything but the "last mile" and the converter doesn't have backup power, the landline won't save you. The circumstances in which the power would be out but the POTS phone would still work feels increasingly niche.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 10, 2024, 03:14:15 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 10, 2024, 02:56:20 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 10, 2024, 02:52:49 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 10, 2024, 01:36:54 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on February 10, 2024, 12:39:36 PM
Two things are clear to me.
- There are lots of places where neither "good" internet (or any internet) service, nor a cell phone service exist.
- No one, in either party, at any level, anywhere, gives a d*** about the people that live there.
One piece of the puzzle you are missing: US is no longer a rich country which could afford building and maintaining copper spaghetti.
Enlighten us on which 'rich countries' still string copper wiring around.
USA in 70s and 80s, for example.
So, the technology of the time.
No. Combination of labor efficiency, regulatiory climate, availability of resources
Same as electric connections went from <10% in 1900 to about 70% in 1930 and sub-100% by 1955. It was a novel technology, it required expensive equipment and manual installation. Yet it happened
Today fiber installation is not limited by endpoint equipment - it's manual labor to install it which became unaffordable. Along with regulatory costs.
At my wife's shop, we switched from a traditional landline to a VoIP service several years ago, due to increasing issues with the outside wiring. However, turns out she was at the 'end of the line' for the VoIP service from its hub, and it was constantly cutting out, preventing her from making or receiving any phone calls. For her business which relies on reservations, this was not acceptable. The numerous repairmen we had come to the shop all agreed this wasn't the appropriate connection for her. We switched back to the landline (which was a nightmare in itself due to numerous issues with Verizon, although in the long run they did compensate us for it).
There's still issues with the landline, especially with static during/after a rain. And it turns out, many of Verizon's repairmen don't know didley about working on landline wiring. We've made enough phone calls, and had enough guys come out, that we've found one guy that works weekends in our area that knows his shit and knows the issue. We purposely time our service appointment to try to get him. He's a little limited on what really needs to be done due to Verizon not really wanting to service landline wiring anymore, but he can get the issue resolved for several months before the problem starts up again.
Quote from: kalvado on February 10, 2024, 05:52:57 PM
No. Combination of labor efficiency, regulatiory climate, availability of resources
Same as electric connections went from <10% in 1900 to about 70% in 1930 and sub-100% by 1955. It was a novel technology, it required expensive equipment and manual installation. Yet it happened
Today fiber installation is not limited by endpoint equipment - it's manual labor to install it which became unaffordable. Along with regulatory costs.
You're confusing 'unaffordable' with 'unprofitable'.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 10, 2024, 06:54:51 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 10, 2024, 05:52:57 PM
No. Combination of labor efficiency, regulatiory climate, availability of resources
Same as electric connections went from <10% in 1900 to about 70% in 1930 and sub-100% by 1955. It was a novel technology, it required expensive equipment and manual installation. Yet it happened
Today fiber installation is not limited by endpoint equipment - it's manual labor to install it which became unaffordable. Along with regulatory costs.
You're confusing 'unaffordable' with 'unprofitable'.
Well, if customers cannot afford the price of infrastructure neither via rates nor taxes , it is unaffordable.
Quote from: kalvado on February 10, 2024, 01:36:54 PM
One piece of the puzzle you are missing: US is no longer a rich country which could afford building and maintaining copper spaghetti.
I call BS. The US is a rich country that invests its money in feeding the war machine and enriching the folks who are already rich. Everything else, including food, education, and infrastructure, is done as cheap as possible, charging as much as possible for it, without inspiring the populace to stage a bloody coup.
AT&T isn't exactly honoring its "Carrier of Last Resort" obligations, as one example. Before their electric co-op got grants to run fiber-optic internet to their home, my parents' only phone option was POTS from AT&T. It was unusable about 50% of the time due to AT&T's lack of maintenance. They routinely got back 1/2 to 3/4 of their phone bill from AT&T for this state (instead of actually fixing it properly).
Once the co-op built out and lit its fiber network, my folks went from well over $200/mo in phone and internet charges to $100/mo with far superior service. It's been 3 or 4 years now with only one notable outage in that time. Needless to say, everyone on their street switched to the new service and AT&T now serves nobody there.
Quote from: JREwing78 on February 11, 2024, 01:48:03 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 10, 2024, 01:36:54 PM
One piece of the puzzle you are missing: US is no longer a rich country which could afford building and maintaining copper spaghetti.
I call BS. The US is a rich country that invests its money in feeding the war machine and enriching the folks who are already rich. Everything else, including food, education, and infrastructure, is done as cheap as possible, charging as much as possible for it, without inspiring the populace to stage a bloody coup.
AT&T isn't exactly honoring its "Carrier of Last Resort" obligations, as one example. Before their electric co-op got grants to run fiber-optic internet to their home, my parents' only phone option was POTS from AT&T. It was unusable about 50% of the time due to AT&T's lack of maintenance. They routinely got back 1/2 to 3/4 of their phone bill from AT&T for this state (instead of actually fixing it properly).
Once the co-op built out and lit its fiber network, my folks went from well over $200/mo in phone and internet charges to $100/mo with far superior service. It's been 3 or 4 years now with only one notable outage in that time. Needless to say, everyone on their street switched to the new service and AT&T now serves nobody there.
Just curious, who ended up paying for fiber work?
I hear a few of similar stories, and there are different ways to cover those costs, rates are not part of the list.
Quote from: kalvado on February 11, 2024, 02:08:05 PM
Just curious, who ended up paying for fiber work?
I hear a few of similar stories, and there are different ways to cover those costs, rates are not part of the list.
Government grants. The co-op was created when the Rural Electrification Act was enacted to service areas that had not yet received electrical power, funding low-interest loans to help fund the build-out. In the late 2010s, they received grants to run a fiber build-out along its electric delivery footprint.
Quote from: JREwing78 on February 11, 2024, 03:23:19 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 11, 2024, 02:08:05 PM
Just curious, who ended up paying for fiber work?
I hear a few of similar stories, and there are different ways to cover those costs, rates are not part of the list.
Government grants. The co-op was created when the Rural Electrification Act was enacted to service areas that had not yet received electrical power, funding low-interest loans to help fund the build-out. In the late 2010s, they received grants to run a fiber build-out along its electric delivery footprint.
Which basically means a small area got commercially unviable product. Which is what the government should do, honestly speaking, but asking companies to fund that would be inefficient. Exactly as you described with copper lines. I wonder how the maintenance would be funded...
And if everyone in need of fiber would ask for a grant, that will quickly deplete available funds.
Quote from: ZLoth on February 10, 2024, 09:31:18 AM
Quote from: kphoger on February 09, 2024, 02:42:00 PM
Quote from: ZLoth on February 09, 2024, 02:21:20 PMI just tried searching for traditional landline service for my area... and failed.
Your location says Richardson, TX. Doesn't Spectrum offer home phone service there?
As I stated, "traditional" landline service aka POTS which is a line from my home to the switching office. Spectrum does offer Internet and Mobile phone service, but not VoIP service. Also, their gigabit service only offers gigabit download, not upload. That's important when you upload backups while you are sleeping. That's one of the reasons I switched from Spectrum to AT&T Internet, the other is that AT&T Fiber was cheaper.
OK. I thought they also had POTS phone service in your area. I used to dispatch for contracted Time Warner cable techs in the Dallas area.
Quote from: SP Cook on February 10, 2024, 12:39:36 PMTwo things are clear to me.
- There are lots of places where neither "good" internet (or any internet) service, nor a cell phone service exist.
- No one, in either party, at any level, anywhere, gives a d*** about the people that live there.
Are you talking about the majority of people who live in the Mountain Standard Time zone which has just 6.7% of the total United States population?
Quote from: kphoger on February 12, 2024, 12:41:17 PMOK. I thought they also had POTS phone service in your area. I used to dispatch for contracted Time Warner cable techs in the Dallas area.
Honestly, I don't know if Frontier services my area or not. Just because I just wanted to compare the pricing of "traditional" verses "VoIP" landline service, including the dialing areas. I don't doubt that "traditional" POTS service exists, but only for legacy customers.
It is always... amusing... when I her the excuses and resistance from people when moving from older, somewhat out-of-date, technology and into modern technology where, in the long run, it offers more functionality and is cheaper to operate. Once upon a time, AMPS (Analog Mobile Phone Service) was commonplace, but consumed a entire audio frequency, so we switched to digital service for more efficient use of the radio spectrum, yet people complained. More recently, 3G digital technology which was initially deployed in 2002 was decomissioned by the United States mobile providers during 2022 in favor of the more spectrum-efficient 4G and 5G. There was plenty of complaining even though the mobile providers even provided free (low end) phone replacements. We gave away free digital-to-analog converters for those people who wanted to hang on to their old analog televisions.
Heck, Electronic Toll Collection is more efficient and helps with traffic flow much better than having manned toll booths. Do you keep manned toll booths in place for the 1% who refuse that toll stricker and doesn't want to use that "bill-by-plate" option?
https://www.att.com/internet/availability/ (https://www.att.com/internet/availability/)
AT&T puts out a list on where Fiber optic Internet and phone service is currently available and in in the planning stages.
Quote from: ZLoth on February 14, 2024, 09:19:30 AM
It is always... amusing... when I her the excuses and resistance from people when moving from older, somewhat out-of-date, technology and into modern technology where, in the long run, it offers more functionality and is cheaper to operate. Once upon a time, AMPS (Analog Mobile Phone Service) was commonplace, but consumed a entire audio frequency, so we switched to digital service for more efficient use of the radio spectrum, yet people complained. More recently, 3G digital technology which was initially deployed in 2002 was decomissioned by the United States mobile providers during 2022 in favor of the more spectrum-efficient 4G and 5G. There was plenty of complaining even though the mobile providers even provided free (low end) phone replacements. We gave away free digital-to-analog converters for those people who wanted to hang on to their old analog televisions.
Heck, Electronic Toll Collection is more efficient and helps with traffic flow much better than having manned toll booths. Do you keep manned toll booths in place for the 1% who refuse that toll stricker and doesn't want to use that "bill-by-plate" option?
In this particular case, people are afraid of getting old one discontinued, and new one remain promised... and promised... and still waiting...
I cannot say this is an unfounded fear.
Quote from: ZLoth on February 14, 2024, 09:19:30 AM
It is always... amusing... when I her the excuses and resistance from people when moving from older, somewhat out-of-date, technology and into modern technology where, in the long run, it offers more functionality and is cheaper to operate. Once upon a time, AMPS (Analog Mobile Phone Service) was commonplace, but consumed a entire audio frequency, so we switched to digital service for more efficient use of the radio spectrum, yet people complained. More recently, 3G digital technology which was initially deployed in 2002 was decomissioned by the United States mobile providers during 2022 in favor of the more spectrum-efficient 4G and 5G. There was plenty of complaining even though the mobile providers even provided free (low end) phone replacements. We gave away free digital-to-analog converters for those people who wanted to hang on to their old analog televisions.
Heck, Electronic Toll Collection is more efficient and helps with traffic flow much better than having manned toll booths. Do you keep manned toll booths in place for the 1% who refuse that toll stricker and doesn't want to use that "bill-by-plate" option?
What free low-end replacement phone? I never got or was offered a free anything. Just, "Guess what! Your phone is now a paperweight! Thank you for choosing our wireless service."
Quote from: kkt on February 16, 2024, 01:13:08 AM
Quote from: ZLoth on February 14, 2024, 09:19:30 AM
It is always... amusing... when I her the excuses and resistance from people when moving from older, somewhat out-of-date, technology and into modern technology where, in the long run, it offers more functionality and is cheaper to operate. Once upon a time, AMPS (Analog Mobile Phone Service) was commonplace, but consumed a entire audio frequency, so we switched to digital service for more efficient use of the radio spectrum, yet people complained. More recently, 3G digital technology which was initially deployed in 2002 was decomissioned by the United States mobile providers during 2022 in favor of the more spectrum-efficient 4G and 5G. There was plenty of complaining even though the mobile providers even provided free (low end) phone replacements. We gave away free digital-to-analog converters for those people who wanted to hang on to their old analog televisions.
Heck, Electronic Toll Collection is more efficient and helps with traffic flow much better than having manned toll booths. Do you keep manned toll booths in place for the 1% who refuse that toll stricker and doesn't want to use that "bill-by-plate" option?
What free low-end replacement phone? I never got or was offered a free anything. Just, "Guess what! Your phone is now a paperweight! Thank you for choosing our wireless service."
I think I got A12 at a deep discount offered. But it's a paperweight with some basic calling functions...
Quote from: kalvado on February 16, 2024, 07:47:40 AM
Quote from: kkt on February 16, 2024, 01:13:08 AM
What free low-end replacement phone? I never got or was offered a free anything. Just, "Guess what! Your phone is now a paperweight! Thank you for choosing our wireless service."
I think I got A12 at a deep discount offered. But it's a paperweight with some basic calling functions...
Per CNBC (https://www.cnbc.com/2022/07/08/verizons-giving-free-phones-to-customers-still-using-its-3g-network-.html) published July 8th, 2022:
QuoteAccording to its website, (Verizon) customers can receive the Orbic Journey V, TCL FLIP Pro or Nokia 2720 V Flip. Each is priced at about $80 and has one or two-star customer reviews.
An out-of-date cell phone isn't necessarily a paperweight.
For the first time the other day, we left our middle son home alone for the evening while the rest of us were elsewhere. We left him with my wife's old phone, which can't hold a charge and is no longer even part of our cellular plan. But it still has Facebook Messenger installed and can connect to our home Wi-Fi. So he was able to simply keep it plugged in and use Facebook Messenger to both text and call us while we were out.
Quote from: kphoger on February 16, 2024, 12:29:09 PM
An out-of-date cell phone isn't necessarily a paperweight.
For the first time the other day, we left our middle son home alone for the evening while the rest of us were elsewhere. We left him with my wife's old phone, which can't hold a charge and is no longer even part of our cellular plan. But it still has Facebook Messenger installed and can connect to our home Wi-Fi. So he was able to simply keep it plugged in and use Facebook Messenger to both text and call us while we were out.
There are quite a few possible use scenarios of old cell use. wi-fi tablet, some smart controller, what not.
But having to buy a new phone here and now - especially without warning - is less than ideal.
I'm actually quite unimpressed with the way 5G was introduced in general.
I suspect why that happened - but it is pretty high level politics, which isn't really welcomed in friendly discussions.
Having to buy a new phone would be a lot easier to stomach if they were more affordable.
Quote from: kphoger on February 16, 2024, 01:26:42 PM
Having to buy a new phone would be a lot easier to stomach if they were more affordable.
Compared to cars...
My current phone is reasonable from my perspective, not a flagship but a value for money. I paid $99 on black Friday and it was often $149 other times. Not exactly a pocket change, but not that bad
Cars are easier to buy than cell phones now.
Quote from: Rothman on February 16, 2024, 02:42:24 PM
Cars are easier to buy than cell phones now.
why?? do you mean choice-wise?
Quote from: kalvado on February 16, 2024, 03:33:36 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 16, 2024, 02:42:24 PM
Cars are easier to buy than cell phones now.
why?? do you mean choice-wise?
Time-wise. Went into a car dealership and walked out with a car in short order. Walked into an AT&T store and spent way too much time unraveling way too much paperwork just get phones.
Quote from: Rothman on February 16, 2024, 03:51:27 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 16, 2024, 03:33:36 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 16, 2024, 02:42:24 PM
Cars are easier to buy than cell phones now.
why?? do you mean choice-wise?
Time-wise. Went into a car dealership and walked out with a car in short order. Walked into an AT&T store and spent way too much time unraveling way too much paperwork just get phones.
well, not sure I do agree. My phone buying experience is pressing 2 buttons online, getting it delivered 2 days later.
Yeah, I don't want to go into the cell phone store for any reason other than just picking up the thing I already ordered online.
Oh, but then there was AT&T's trade-in any phone-get-spiffy-phone order. Did that online. Still took longer than buying my car.
Is that all carriers since AT&T is known for ridiculously bad customer service?
Quote from: Big John on February 16, 2024, 05:30:05 PM
Is that all carriers since AT&T is known for ridiculously bad customer service?
Let us compare to Verizon...Constant battles with them overcharging me when I was with them.
Quote from: Rothman on February 16, 2024, 05:40:22 PM
Quote from: Big John on February 16, 2024, 05:30:05 PM
Is that all carriers since AT&T is known for ridiculously bad customer service?
Let us compare to Verizon...Constant battles with them overcharging me when I was with them.
I once worked for An AT&T-owned store.
In our area, some of the "quotas" that were assigned to us were damn near impossible to hit, or very shady. (Example: having to push the HELL out of DirecTV to everyone entering the door -- DESPITE DirecTV not offering the LOCAL market channels (we are one of 3-7 smaller TV markets that DTV doesn't carry, Instead they carry the stations in Denver). To make up for that omission.we gave each customer a set of 'rabbit ears' for the local channels.
One of the numerous reasons why I left after only 6 months.
I still have my old iPhone 7 and an even-older old-school Nokia phone plugged in, although both are in a walk-in closet with an outlet. Both are still charging, but I'm sure they will die quickly with their batteries so old.
The old iPhone has a cracked screen because it fell out of my pocket at work, but it still worked until it became too hard to type. So I had to update to a 13 a year ago. I still hear the old phone alert from time to time, as it is on my mobile hotspot.
The Nokia is there just to look up an old number or for nostalgia purposes only. (You could text but the letter C was made by typing AAA, etc.) The nice thing about that phone was I could crudely (heh heh) program my ringtones in with tone and length of notes. I did "Boomer Sooner," and the "Evil Empire" tune for my boss on it. :)
Other than a stolen BlackBerry, I still have all the cellphones I ever owned stored somewhere. I canned my POTS line in 2014 because I found it way cheaper to use my hotspot and cellphone themselves than also pay for a land line and DSL, which by that point was approaching a Benjamin. Jeez.
I ended my last landline telephone service back in 2003, which was about the time that cellular began to replace landline in general. That said, I wonder if landline service will truly disappear. Perhaps if rural broadband takes off?
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on February 17, 2024, 05:11:25 AM
I ended my last landline telephone service back in 2003, which was about the time that cellular began to replace landline in general. That said, I wonder if landline service will truly disappear. Perhaps if rural broadband takes off?
Rural broadband
must take off, the question is in what form.
I would bet on long range 5G (like 600 MHz 5G T-Mobile has) or HaLow WiFi.
I'll just share this Newsweek article (https://markholtz.info/2u2) where a real estate agent, when questioned by a young adult purchasing a home, was stumped by the sight of a shelving unit in the hallway and was told that the shelf was where they put the home phone and answering machine.
Quote from: ZLoth on February 18, 2024, 06:10:27 PM
I'll just share this Newsweek article (https://markholtz.info/2u2) where a real estate agent, when questioned by a young adult purchasing a home, was stumped by the sight of a shelving unit in the hallway and was told that the shelf was where they put the home phone and answering machine.
That lower shelf in the photo that accompanies the article is where the big metro area phone books (printed directories) went.
We had one of those phone nooks that was set into a divider wall between the kitchen and formal dining room, accessible from both sides, in the house when I was young. I thought that it was über-handy at the time.
Mike
I'm sure that a good electrician could retrofit that jack to carry ethernet, power, and/or the Internet line for whole-house Internet connectivity.
Quote from: ZLoth on February 18, 2024, 09:05:42 PM
I'm sure that a good electrician could retrofit that jack to carry ethernet, power, and/or the Internet line for whole-house Internet connectivity.
Retrofit... How? Jack is the easiest part of network setup. And unlike landline phone, most of network equipment can be out of site, not in the most visible spot of the house.
Whatever new data connection would be used, it would be entering the house elsewhere, and there are few reasons to follow old phone wires.
Oh, and the story about "save button looks like vending machine, but why?" Comes to mind
Quote from: kalvado on February 11, 2024, 04:18:11 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on February 11, 2024, 03:23:19 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 11, 2024, 02:08:05 PM
Just curious, who ended up paying for fiber work?
I hear a few of similar stories, and there are different ways to cover those costs, rates are not part of the list.
Government grants. The co-op was created when the Rural Electrification Act was enacted to service areas that had not yet received electrical power, funding low-interest loans to help fund the build-out. In the late 2010s, they received grants to run a fiber build-out along its electric delivery footprint.
Which basically means a small area got commercially unviable product. Which is what the government should do, honestly speaking, but asking companies to fund that would be inefficient. Exactly as you described with copper lines. I wonder how the maintenance would be funded...
And if everyone in need of fiber would ask for a grant, that will quickly deplete available funds.
OEC did the same sort of program, and now rural McClain County OK has better Internet than Norman and OKC proper do. The part of Norman I lived in was supposed to get OEC fiber at some point, but it was the lowest priority part of the buildout since Cox already offered cable internet there. So it still hasn't been built.
Quote from: Rothman on February 16, 2024, 05:09:23 PM
Oh, but then there was AT&T's trade-in any phone-get-spiffy-phone order. Did that online. Still took longer than buying my car.
There was one year where for my birthday I asked my wife to deal with AT&T for me. I knew exactly what phone and everything I wanted, I just wanted her to handle the business of actually getting it for me to be the present.
I also feel about as likely to get screwed over going into AT&T as I am a slimy car dealership. So many instances of being told that X deal was being run, not seeing the promotional price on the bill, and going back in to be told that because the Europa was closer to Earth than Io at the time I signed my contract, and the date my SIM card was made was more than three days after the governor of Wyoming had last eaten lettuce, the deal somehow didn't apply to me and I was to pay full price.
Quote from: kalvado on February 18, 2024, 09:19:45 PMQuote from: ZLoth on February 18, 2024, 09:05:42 PMI'm sure that a good electrician could retrofit that jack to carry ethernet, power, and/or the Internet line for whole-house Internet connectivity.
Retrofit... How? Jack is the easiest part of network setup. And unlike landline phone, most of network equipment can be out of site, not in the most visible spot of the house.
Whatever new data connection would be used, it would be entering the house elsewhere, and there are few reasons to follow old phone wires.
shrug I dunno. I personally have my network equipment in a closet myself as it has my AT&T Fiber Internet model, my route/wireless gateway/WiFi mesh node, a 24 port gigabit switch, and a file server running 24⨯7. Since I have a generalized photo, I have no idea what the age of the house or what type of electrical box is attached. The bottom shelf can be repurposed for a charging station for your accessories.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 19, 2024, 12:28:12 AMI also feel about as likely to get screwed over going into AT&T as I am a slimy car dealership.
I understand your sentiment, however, where I live, AT&T Internet was cheaper than Spectrum Internet for gigabit Internet and by $30 before promotional pricing. In addition, the fiber upload speeds are near gigabit verses the cable upload speeds of 35 Mbps.
Quote from: ZLoth on February 19, 2024, 03:29:32 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 18, 2024, 09:19:45 PM
Quote from: ZLoth on February 18, 2024, 09:05:42 PMI'm sure that a good electrician could retrofit that jack to carry ethernet, power, and/or the Internet line for whole-house Internet connectivity.
Retrofit... How? Jack is the easiest part of network setup. And unlike landline phone, most of network equipment can be out of site, not in the most visible spot of the house.
Whatever new data connection would be used, it would be entering the house elsewhere, and there are few reasons to follow old phone wires.
shrug I dunno. I personally have my network equipment in a closet myself as it has my AT&T Fiber Internet model, my route/wireless gateway/WiFi mesh node, a 24 port gigabit switch, and a file server running 24⨯7. Since I have a generalized photo, I have no idea what the age of the house or what type of electrical box is attached. The bottom shelf can be repurposed for a charging station for your accessories.
Not having even bothered to look at the generalized photo, but working in the telecom industry... Every house is different, and there are myriad reasons for [1] following or not following old existing lines, [2] changing or not changing the point of entry into the house (but changing it is actually relatively rare), and [3] locating a piece of CPE in this or that room (especially if the whole-house internet connectivity is provided over Wi-Fi).
This morning's A T & T outage demonstrated the fragility of the mobile phone system.
Quote from: 02 Park Ave on February 22, 2024, 05:37:48 PMThis morning's A T & T outage demonstrated the fragility of the mobile phone system.
I very much disagree. Unless it's a last mile, the backbone of the phone network is all digital, and it's all network routing at that point.
Yeah, there are network outages all the time with terrestrial service; it's a little annoying, but whatever. In contrast, when a cellular outage happens, the nation practically explodes, and I think it's chiefly because it's such a rare occurrence.
Quote from: kphoger on February 22, 2024, 08:33:36 PMYeah, there are network outages all the time with terrestrial service; it's a little annoying, but whatever. In contrast, when a cellular outage happens, the nation practically explodes, and I think it's chiefly because it's such a rare occurrence.
It was the scope of impact and areas impacted that got attention in addition to how long the impact was. The FCC will want to know what happened.
This will go over like a wet fart in chuch in Colorado. Half the state has no cell service, unless you hike to the top of a hill.
I will never understand how a town like Grand Lake can get internet via cable or DSL, and it's out in the middle of bleeping nowhere. I'm 30 minutes out of the 4th largest city in the state.
The same half of the state, the only connectivity options available are satellite. If you're on Hughes or Viasat, using a VOIP phone on these is an exercise in hair-ripping. The lag makes it more of a two-way radio.
If one goes 20 miles FURTHER up the canyon from Fort Collins, DSL service is available through the telco. But, where I sit, it's satellite, 4G (from a doohickey some neighbor hooked up to theoir satellite internet, so the same laggy phone calls), or suffer with dialup.
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on February 23, 2024, 09:46:30 AM
This will go over like a wet fart in chuch in Colorado. Half the state has no cell service, unless you hike to the top of a hill.
I will never understand how a town like Grand Lake can get internet via cable or DSL, and it's out in the middle of bleeping nowhere. I'm 30 minutes out of the 4th largest city in the state.
The same half of the state, the only connectivity options available are satellite. If you're on Hughes or Viasat, using a VOIP phone on these is an exercise in hair-ripping. The lag makes it more of a two-way radio.
If one goes 20 miles FURTHER up the canyon from Fort Collins, DSL service is available through the telco. But, where I sit, it's satellite, 4G (from a doohickey some neighbor hooked up to theoir satellite internet, so the same laggy phone calls), or suffer with dialup.
This reads like a message in a bottle from the 20th Century.
Quote from: Rothman on February 23, 2024, 09:56:55 AM
This reads like a message in a bottle from the 20th Century.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMCZqKowlzM
Quote from: Rothman on February 23, 2024, 09:56:55 AM
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on February 23, 2024, 09:46:30 AM
This will go over like a wet fart in chuch in Colorado. Half the state has no cell service, unless you hike to the top of a hill.
I will never understand how a town like Grand Lake can get internet via cable or DSL, and it's out in the middle of bleeping nowhere. I'm 30 minutes out of the 4th largest city in the state.
The same half of the state, the only connectivity options available are satellite. If you're on Hughes or Viasat, using a VOIP phone on these is an exercise in hair-ripping. The lag makes it more of a two-way radio.
If one goes 20 miles FURTHER up the canyon from Fort Collins, DSL service is available through the telco. But, where I sit, it's satellite, 4G (from a doohickey some neighbor hooked up to theoir satellite internet, so the same laggy phone calls), or suffer with dialup.
This reads like a message in a bottle from the 20th Century.
Chunks of Colorado are pretty much a return to the past in certain ways.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 23, 2024, 12:43:27 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 23, 2024, 09:56:55 AM
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on February 23, 2024, 09:46:30 AM
This will go over like a wet fart in chuch in Colorado. Half the state has no cell service, unless you hike to the top of a hill.
I will never understand how a town like Grand Lake can get internet via cable or DSL, and it's out in the middle of bleeping nowhere. I'm 30 minutes out of the 4th largest city in the state.
The same half of the state, the only connectivity options available are satellite. If you're on Hughes or Viasat, using a VOIP phone on these is an exercise in hair-ripping. The lag makes it more of a two-way radio.
If one goes 20 miles FURTHER up the canyon from Fort Collins, DSL service is available through the telco. But, where I sit, it's satellite, 4G (from a doohickey some neighbor hooked up to theoir satellite internet, so the same laggy phone calls), or suffer with dialup.
This reads like a message in a bottle from the 20th Century.
Chunks of Colorado are pretty much a return to the past in certain ways.
Yeah, I saw that Spike Lee movie.
I'm surprised the amount of Americans with landlines is still more than one in four.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 23, 2024, 12:43:27 PMChunks of Colorado are pretty much a return to the past in certain ways.
One of the maps that I like to share is this population density map of the 48 states broken down by time zone (https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fexternal-preview.redd.it%2FcM-B3tIBNQj6ufc0vn_YPdSt7onkNU-jLOPq6s9pm6k.png%3Fwidth%3D1080%26crop%3Dsmart%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D1d47ad1c06931e65dca1484260932f615fb8c3f2). Of the four time zones, the least populated is the Mointain Standard Time Zone with about 6.7% of the United States population as of 2015... and I would
love to see an updated version.
Another interesting site is https://coveragemap.com/ which shows the coverage areas for the major providers, and the data is from December, 2023. Again, there are more coverage holes in the western half of the United States verses the eastern half. I'm actually surprised at the I-70 coverage between Salina and Green River, Utah and the ION highway.
From ABC News:
This week's cellphone outage makes it clear: In the United States, landlines are languishing
When some people's cellphone service went down for a while because of an AT&T network outage, among the alternatives suggested were using landlinesQuoteWhen her cellphone's service went down this week because of an AT&T network outage, Bernice Hudson didn't panic. She just called the people she wanted to talk to the old-fashioned way — on her landline telephone, the kind she grew up with and refuses to get rid of even though she has a mobile phone.
Having a working landline puts her in select company. In an increasingly digital United States, they're more and more a remnant of a time gone by, an anachronism of a now-unfathomable era when leaving your house meant being unavailable to callers.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2u4)
Quote from: ZLoth on February 26, 2024, 01:44:50 PM
From ABC News:
This week's cellphone outage makes it clear: In the United States, landlines are languishing
When some people's cellphone service went down for a while because of an AT&T network outage, among the alternatives suggested were using landlinesQuoteWhen her cellphone's service went down this week because of an AT&T network outage, Bernice Hudson didn't panic. She just called the people she wanted to talk to the old-fashioned way — on her landline telephone, the kind she grew up with and refuses to get rid of even though she has a mobile phone.
Having a working landline puts her in select company. In an increasingly digital United States, they're more and more a remnant of a time gone by, an anachronism of a now-unfathomable era when leaving your house meant being unavailable to callers.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2u4)
That's probably a stretch based on a single social media post (they said it was an example, so maybe there were more):
QuoteThough as Thursday's outage shows, sometimes they can come in handy. They were suggested as part of the alternatives when people's cellphones weren't working. The San Francisco Fire Department, for example, said on social media that people unable to get through to 911 on their mobile devices because of the outage should try using landlines.
Why didn't they bring up: "If you can't use your cell phone, use a Payphone". Or, "Locate an emergency callbox on the street corner". Or, "Ask a neighbor"?
Technologies come and go. There was once a time when 911 didn't exist and one had to use the local phone book to locate the emergency numbers, which were separate for Fire, Police & Ambulance.
So, yes, since landlines still exist, they're an option. But we can't hold onto old technologies forever.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 26, 2024, 03:04:52 PM
Technologies come and go. There was once a time when 911 didn't exist and one had to use the local phone book to locate the emergency numbers, which were separate for Fire, Police & Ambulance.
So, yes, since landlines still exist, they're an option. But we can't hold onto old technologies forever.
The wheel says otherwise.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 26, 2024, 03:04:52 PMWhy didn't they bring up: "If you can't use your cell phone, use a Payphone". Or, "Locate an emergency callbox on the street corner". Or, "Ask a neighbor"?
What is this "pay phone" that you are talking about? I already pay to use my phone. Is this something that you would put quarters into? Can't they use debit or credit cards? It is, after all, the 21st century.
Payphones do exist, but the phone companies have gotten out of the pay phone business leaving them to third party providers. New York City used to have 30,000 payphones, but the last one was removed from service in 2022. I honestly didn't even see a payphone at DFW International or Fourt Lauderdale, but I wasn't looking for one either.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 26, 2024, 03:04:52 PM
Why didn't they bring up: "If you can't use your cell phone, use a Payphone". Or, "Locate an emergency callbox on the street corner". Or, "Ask a neighbor"?
Are you implying that asking a neighbor is outdated technology? That's exactly what we've told our boys to do in case of an emergency if using a cell phone isn't an option.
Quote from: Rothman on February 26, 2024, 03:19:10 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 26, 2024, 03:04:52 PM
Technologies come and go. There was once a time when 911 didn't exist and one had to use the local phone book to locate the emergency numbers, which were separate for Fire, Police & Ambulance.
So, yes, since landlines still exist, they're an option. But we can't hold onto old technologies forever.
The wheel says otherwise.
Still carving your own wooden wheels? The wheel, just like a phone, remains. Today's wheels ain't like yesteryear's wheels though.
Quote from: ZLoth on February 26, 2024, 03:52:24 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 26, 2024, 03:04:52 PMWhy didn't they bring up: "If you can't use your cell phone, use a Payphone". Or, "Locate an emergency callbox on the street corner". Or, "Ask a neighbor"?
What is this "pay phone" that you are talking about? I already pay to use my phone. Is this something that you would put quarters into? Can't they use debit or credit cards? It is, after all, the 21st century.
Payphones do exist, but the phone companies have gotten out of the pay phone business leaving them to third party providers. New York City used to have 30,000 payphones, but the last one was removed from service in 2022. I honestly didn't even see a payphone at DFW International or Fourt Lauderdale, but I wasn't looking for one either.
I know of a few in various parking lots in my area. I haven't picked them up to see if they actually work though.
Quote from: kphoger on February 26, 2024, 04:24:11 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 26, 2024, 03:04:52 PM
Why didn't they bring up: "If you can't use your cell phone, use a Payphone". Or, "Locate an emergency callbox on the street corner". Or, "Ask a neighbor"?
Are you implying that asking a neighbor is outdated technology? That's exactly what we've told our boys to do in case of an emergency if using a cell phone isn't an option.
In many cases, it's the unfortunate truth. Many people are so secluded from the outside world they don't know their neighbors, or have minor issues that they now don't talk to each other. Then the question also is - why didn't the social media post say - hey, your neighbor may have a different carrier that's unaffected, so try asking them if you don't have access to a landline.
I didn't know the names of any of my neighbors in Oklahoma. Couldn't tell you one thing about any of them, other than the lady across the street having a little dog that she took out to use the bathroom in the front yard late at night.
The only reason I know that the guy that lives above me in Nevada is named Josh is because we ran into each other coming and going and he went out of his way to introduce himself.
There is a yeah but there is more to this story. You will still be able to have a home phone. It would just need to be connected via the internet. Except when the power is off, you could never even notice the difference.
POTS (single line copper wires) may be going by the wayside, but it will not be that complicated. Last year, the folks I worked with went to a more modern (and far less expensive) VOIP system. The buyer talked about it like it was a dramatic change. We had been on VOIP over a T1 connection since 2001. It just connected through a box in the back room with individual phone wires going to the individual phones as opposed to having a cat5 /6 cable hooked to each phone.
Grandma can keep her house phone as she is familiar with it even after the transition. It WILL require a more resilient and widespread network of DSL, fiber, and wireless that can provide a reliable high speed internet to the places where it is lacking today.
Quote from: bwana39 on February 26, 2024, 11:20:47 PM
There is a yeah but there is more to this story. You will still be able to have a home phone. It would just need to be connected via the internet. Except when the power is off, you could never even notice the difference.
The internet's takeover of the world is nearing completion...
Boston Globe had an article today about folks who are holding on to their landlines. Many skew older, and (perhaps unsurprisingly) the Northeast tends to have a higher proportion of landline customers. Also unsurprisingly, a few are holding on to landlines to memorialize past generations of relatives (i.e. keeping their parents or grandparents numbers). Kind of like low-number license plates.
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on February 27, 2024, 05:39:31 PM
Boston Glove had an article today about folks who are holding on to their landlines. Many skew older, and (perhaps unsurprisingly) the Northeast tends to have a higher proportion of landline customers. Also unsurprisingly, a few are holding on to landlines to memorialize past generations of relatives (i.e. keeping their parents or grandparents numbers). Kind of like low-number license plates.
I thought you can transfer any number to a cell if you choose so?
Quote from: ZLoth on February 06, 2024, 12:36:11 PM
I want mobile-only with my phone service back in December, 2003, and when we moved five years ago, my mother imovied to mobile only. Part of the reason why the telcos want to move away from copper lines is because of the costs associated with such a aging infrastruction and the regulations/tariffs associated with traditional phone lines verses providing phone service via a VoIP adapter.
And not at all because telcos can charge more for service every month, and sell you a new phone every few years?
Quote from: kkt on February 27, 2024, 08:30:10 PM
Quote from: ZLoth on February 06, 2024, 12:36:11 PM
I want mobile-only with my phone service back in December, 2003, and when we moved five years ago, my mother imovied to mobile only. Part of the reason why the telcos want to move away from copper lines is because of the costs associated with such a aging infrastruction and the regulations/tariffs associated with traditional phone lines verses providing phone service via a VoIP adapter.
And not at all because telcos can charge more for service every month, and sell you a new phone every few years?
Google specifically said they want to move to cloud services to reduce handset turnover.
But I agree, that's why publishers want paper newspapers
Quote from: kkt on February 27, 2024, 08:30:10 PM
Quote from: ZLoth on February 06, 2024, 12:36:11 PM
I want mobile-only with my phone service back in December, 2003, and when we moved five years ago, my mother imovied to mobile only. Part of the reason why the telcos want to move away from copper lines is because of the costs associated with such a aging infrastruction and the regulations/tariffs associated with traditional phone lines verses providing phone service via a VoIP adapter.
And not at all because telcos can charge more for service every month, and sell you a new phone every few years?
As someone who works in the telecom industry, let me say... you may be grossly underestimating the cost of maintaining the infrastructure related to copper wire last-mile telephony—especially when video and internet are already steadily switching to from HFC to PON.
The big MSO here in Wichita had been working toward eliminating all non-digital phone (outdoor or indoor NIU) equipment at least since I moved here, and I've lived here for 16 years now. They finally upgraded everyone a couple of years ago. The primary motivation for the change was the fact that such equipment was antique, was expensive to replace, and had a zillion little parts inside that could go wrong. And, with the Go All Digital switch several years ago, every household was already going to be getting digital signal anyway for their video and internet. The only possible reason to not use HFC into the home would be a customer's having landline phone but no video or internet service: an increasingly rare type of customer, and an end result of poorer telephone sound quality. The number of customers not needing to use coax to carry digital signal for something other than phone is so low as to be trivial, so it makes total sense to use that same POE for phone service as well by means of an eMTA gateway. With the further march toward fiber, it's only more so.
Quote from: kphoger on February 28, 2024, 09:50:17 AM
As someone who works in the telecom industry, let me say... you may be grossly underestimating the cost of maintaining the infrastructure related to copper wire last-mile telephony—especially when video and internet are already steadily switching to from HFC to PON.
The big MSO here in Wichita had been working toward eliminating all non-digital phone (outdoor or indoor NIU) equipment at least since I moved here, and I've lived here for 16 years now. They finally upgraded everyone a couple of years ago. The primary motivation for the change was the fact that such equipment was antique, was expensive to replace, and had a zillion little parts inside that could go wrong. And, with the Go All Digital switch several years ago, every household was already going to be getting digital signal anyway for their video and internet. The only possible reason to not use HFC into the home would be a customer's having landline phone but no video or internet service: an increasingly rare type of customer, and an end result of poorer telephone sound quality. The number of customers not needing to use coax to carry digital signal for something other than phone is so low as to be trivial, so it makes total sense to use that same POE for phone service as well by means of an eMTA gateway. With the further march toward fiber, it's only more so.
Can you repost your reply in English rather than Acronym?
Quote from: ZLoth on February 28, 2024, 11:51:55 AM
Quote from: kphoger on February 28, 2024, 09:50:17 AM
As someone who works in the telecom industry, let me say... you may be grossly underestimating the cost of maintaining the infrastructure related to copper wire last-mile telephony—especially when video and internet are already steadily switching to from HFC to PON.
The big MSO here in Wichita had been working toward eliminating all non-digital phone (outdoor or indoor NIU) equipment at least since I moved here, and I've lived here for 16 years now. They finally upgraded everyone a couple of years ago. The primary motivation for the change was the fact that such equipment was antique, was expensive to replace, and had a zillion little parts inside that could go wrong. And, with the Go All Digital switch several years ago, every household was already going to be getting digital signal anyway for their video and internet. The only possible reason to not use HFC into the home would be a customer's having landline phone but no video or internet service: an increasingly rare type of customer, and an end result of poorer telephone sound quality. The number of customers not needing to use coax to carry digital signal for something other than phone is so low as to be trivial, so it makes total sense to use that same POE for phone service as well by means of an eMTA gateway. With the further march toward fiber, it's only more so.
Can you repost your reply in English rather than Acronym?
HFC = Hybrid Fiber–Coaxial. This means that the plant is all fiber, from the headend to your node. From the node to the tap, it might be fiber or coax. From the tap to your house, it's coax.
PON = Passive Optical Network. This means that the last leg from the tap to your house is also fiber, and that your modem is probably an ONT (Optical Network Terminal) that converts the fiber signal into coax signal for your devices to use.
MSO = Multi-System Operator. So, Cox or Spectrum or AT&T or whatever.
NIU = Network Interface Unit. This was the junction box between the service drop to your house and the copper phone wires inside. It put out some electrical current to help push your phone call through, with a current limiter out at the tap. With digital telephone, this has been replaced with a proper modem.
POE = Point of Entry. The hole in your wall that the wires come in through.
eMTA = Embedded Multimedia Terminal Adapter. This is a modem that can handle digital telephone as well as plain internet. Many of them have a built-in router, but not all do.