I-35 just north of OKC is so bad that last year we pulled over thinking we had a flat. It still hasn't been fixed yet.
Plus they insist on not decommissioning US Highways yet they are in even worse shape. I'm not sure why they have such a love for the US highways.
OK's top speed is only 70 unlike Texas & Kansas but there is no enforcement on the road. In Texas from Austin to Gainesville we saw at least 4 speed traps each way.
Couldn't help but thinking of this by the title of the thread:
All we need to do is change "Gotham" to "Oklahoma" and "city" to "roads."
But isn't that kind of always been the case with Oklahoma? I seem to recall things were kind of wonky with road maintenance every time I've been through.
Speed limits in OK are up to 75mph on the turnpikes and if I recall correctly rural stretches of I-40 and I-35 get up to 75mph too. 65mph and 70mph are common on US/State routes.
Oklahoma has only a fraction of the population base and tax base of Texas. The state doesn't put as high a priority on roads as neighboring states, hence issues like it taking over a decade just to piece-meal build an interchange like I-44/I-235 in Oklahoma City. The state has little to no real long term planning for major corridors, letting obvious corridors get covered up with development and then only reacting to disaster. There is a long tradition of "good ole boy network" nonsense going on with how highway funding is directed. They would rather build some turnpikes to nowhere than build new highways where they're most needed. Add to this the fact Oklahoma has hundreds upon hundreds of section line roads, many of which have bridges and other structures that suck money like crazy out of the roads budget.
Regarding OHP and its current level of enforcement, OHP troopers currently have a limit of driving no more than 100 miles per day. That's all thanks to the state's budget being totally busted, suffering major short-falls for the past 3 years. The state's single party government handed out tax cuts like candy to voters. Then oil prices tanked and royalty revenue for the state right along with it. Until gasoline gets back well over $3.00 per gallon Oklahoma isn't going to balance its budget, much have any real money to use on major highway projects.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 20, 2017, 09:50:36 PMOHP troopers currently have a limit of driving no more than 100 miles per day.
Wish more states would do this. Maybe, just maybe, it might mean saturation patrols in crime-ridden areas or parking in front of known drug dealers' homes instead of riding up and down the road looking for people who are driving faster than an arbitrarily-set speed.
no kidding and I was talking about I-35 but yes the roads were all nice and safe without the ridicuolous speed traps.
If OHP can't get you for speeding very easily there are plenty of police that can get you on roads away from the turnpikes. I tend to watch my speed the most whenever I'm driving through areas patrolled by tribal police. For instance OK-49 from the Medicine Park exit on I-44 over to the OK-53 turn to Lake Lawtonka can be really bad for speeders, especially the area just off I-44 by Loves and Burger King. The speed limit changes quickly from 65mph down to 45mph. Tribal police will hide out by the Dollar General and Liberty National Bank looking for anyone coming from the lake, headed back to Lawton that doesn't slow down fast enough.
Oklahoma does decommission pretty much all former alignments, but Texas leaves them on the state highway system.
It is interesting how Oklahoma has the gridded county roads, but here in North Texas, county roads are random and far between
Quote from: hbelkins on February 20, 2017, 10:01:22 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 20, 2017, 09:50:36 PMOHP troopers currently have a limit of driving no more than 100 miles per day.
Wish more states would do this. Maybe, just maybe, it might mean saturation patrols in crime-ridden areas or parking in front of known drug dealers' homes instead of riding up and down the road looking for people who are driving faster than an arbitrarily-set speed.
Not that OHP is going to be doing any of that. That's the city PD's job. If the state has to get involved, it would be OSBI, not OHP.
As far as I can tell OHP exists to write speeding tickets and have awkward relationships with the governor.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 20, 2017, 11:23:24 PM
If OHP can't get you for speeding very easily there are plenty of police that can get you on roads away from the turnpikes. I tend to watch my speed the most whenever I'm driving through areas patrolled by tribal police. For instance OK-49 from the Medicine Park exit on I-44 over to the OK-53 turn to Lake Lawtonka can be really bad for speeders, especially the area just off I-44 by Loves and Burger King. The speed limit changes quickly from 65mph down to 45mph. Tribal police will hide out by the Dollar General and Liberty National Bank looking for anyone coming from the lake, headed back to Lawton that doesn't slow down fast enough.
It's a little murky (because what isn't with regard to tribal law), but I don't believe tribal police have jurisdiction to write speeding tickets on state highways. In order for tribal governments to have any authority they have to have what's called "consent to jurisdiction". This is usually because 1) you are a member of the tribe 2) you are on tribal land (e.g., you are in a tribally-owned business) 3) you have consented some other way, such as by filing suit in tribal court, being employed by the tribe, etc.
They can pull you over, because they are usually cross-deputized, but at that point I think the most they can do is run your license/plates and call whoever actually has jurisdiction, if needed. Most likely they are watching for speeders in order to have probable cause to check for arrest warrants.
My only interaction with tribal police as a private citizen was after leaving work (I work at a tribal casino). I had a tail light out; tribal police followed me out of the parking lot and pulled me over once we got to the state highway. Upon reaching the car, the officer simply said "Hey, your right side tail light is out. Have a good night" and walked off. Didn't even ask for my license. I'm guessing he probably recognized my uniform and didn't figure there was much point in running my info, as they would have yanked my gaming license if I had any warrants.
Quote from: hbelkins on February 20, 2017, 10:01:22 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 20, 2017, 09:50:36 PMOHP troopers currently have a limit of driving no more than 100 miles per day.
Wish more states would do this. Maybe, just maybe, it might mean saturation patrols in crime-ridden areas or parking in front of known drug dealers' homes instead of riding up and down the road looking for people who are driving faster than an arbitrarily-set speed.
The downside of having no patrols on the road is that if someone has a breakdown, emergency, or accident, there's no cops around for quite a while. If the OHP (you're missing the point of HIGHWAY PATROL) is in front of drug houses, that would mean they're assigned to that area and can't readily leave, or have easy access back to the highway.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 21, 2017, 08:20:55 AM
The downside of having no patrols on the road is that if someone has a breakdown, emergency, or accident, there's no cops around for quite a while.
That's what the cell phone is for. I'd say most situations like these are not just discovered by cops out on patrol. Instead, they're notified by callers.
QuoteIf the OHP (you're missing the point of HIGHWAY PATROL) is in front of drug houses, that would mean they're assigned to that area and can't readily leave, or have easy access back to the highway.
Highway Patrol/State Police is mostly a matter of semantics. They typically serve the same function no matter what they're called. In Kentucky they're called state police.
Quote from: Brian556 on February 21, 2017, 12:35:46 AM
Oklahoma does decommission pretty much all former alignments, but Texas leaves them on the state highway system.
It is interesting how Oklahoma has the gridded county roads, but here in North Texas, county roads are random and far between
I meant like US 77 has to be within a mile of I-35 is the law
Quote from: texaskdog on February 21, 2017, 08:58:55 AM
Quote from: Brian556 on February 21, 2017, 12:35:46 AM
Oklahoma does decommission pretty much all former alignments, but Texas leaves them on the state highway system.
It is interesting how Oklahoma has the gridded county roads, but here in North Texas, county roads are random and far between
I meant like US 77 has to be within a mile of I-35 is the law
Say what??
US-77 is not within a mile of I-35 for most of its path through Oklahoma. What law are you talking about?
I believe when the Interstate system started Oklahoma passed a law that it had to run within a mile of the US highway so the businesses wouldn't suffer. Perhaps others know more about it than I do.
Quote from: hbelkins on February 21, 2017, 08:54:55 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 21, 2017, 08:20:55 AM
The downside of having no patrols on the road is that if someone has a breakdown, emergency, or accident, there's no cops around for quite a while.
That's what the cell phone is for. I'd say most situations like these are not just discovered by cops out on patrol. Instead, they're notified by callers.
And is the State Police going to call the accident victims and conduct their investigation over the phone? No...they still need to respond, which is why they should still out there somewhere.
Quote from: texaskdog on February 21, 2017, 10:09:07 AM
I believe when the Interstate system started Oklahoma passed a law that it had to run within a mile of the US highway so the businesses wouldn't suffer. Perhaps others know more about it than I do.
The physical reality is that they are not typically within a mile of each other. As you can see in the list below, the majority of towns along US-77/US-177 were bypassed by more than a mile.
Braman - bypassed by ¾ mile
Blackwell - bypassed by 3 miles
Tonkawa - bypassed by 3 miles
Perry - bypassed by 2 miles
Orlando - bypassed by 5 miles
Mulhall - bypassed by 4 miles
Guthrie - bypassed by 1½ miles
Edmond - bypassed by 3 miles
Norman - bypassed by 2 miles
Noble - completely severed
Purcell - still close to I-35, with a good business loop
Wayne - bypassed by 2 miles
Paoli - bypassed by 2½ miles
Pauls Valley - bypassed by 2½ miles
Wynnewood - bypassed by 3 miles
Davis - bypassed by 3 miles
Springer - bypassed by 1½ miles
Ardmore - bypassed by 1 miles
Marietta - bypassed by ½ mile
Thackerville - bypassed by ½ mile
In contrast, I-35 in Texas goes within a mile of the center of most towns it passes through–Denton and Hillsboro being notable exceptions. Unlike most of the country, Texas viewed the construction of Interstates not merely as a means of getting Joe Traveler from A to Z, but also as a means of getting Joe Farmer from E to F to G to H along the way. So, in contrast to Oklahoma, there are usually frontage roads with frequent interchanges, and the path usually goes closer to town. So there is less need to keep both highways on the books, whereas towns in Oklahoma are less well-served by the nearby Interstate, so it makes more sense to keep the routes between them on the books.
Quote from: Scott5114It's a little murky (because what isn't with regard to tribal law), but I don't believe tribal police have jurisdiction to write speeding tickets on state highways. In order for tribal governments to have any authority they have to have what's called "consent to jurisdiction". This is usually because 1) you are a member of the tribe 2) you are on tribal land (e.g., you are in a tribally-owned business) 3) you have consented some other way, such as by filing suit in tribal court, being employed by the tribe, etc.
What ever the case may be, tribal police will ticket you on that part of OK-49 if they get a chance. I think that bit of road qualifies as a speed trap.
Quote from: kphoger on February 21, 2017, 10:50:05 AM
Quote from: texaskdog on February 21, 2017, 10:09:07 AM
I believe when the Interstate system started Oklahoma passed a law that it had to run within a mile of the US highway so the businesses wouldn't suffer. Perhaps others know more about it than I do.
The physical reality is that they are not typically within a mile of each other. As you can see in the list below, the majority of towns along US-77/US-177 were bypassed by more than a mile.
Braman - bypassed by ¾ mile
Blackwell - bypassed by 3 miles
Tonkawa - bypassed by 3 miles
Perry - bypassed by 2 miles
Orlando - bypassed by 5 miles
Mulhall - bypassed by 4 miles
Guthrie - bypassed by 1½ miles
Edmond - bypassed by 3 miles
Norman - bypassed by 2 miles
Noble - completely severed
Purcell - still close to I-35, with a good business loop
Wayne - bypassed by 2 miles
Paoli - bypassed by 2½ miles
Pauls Valley - bypassed by 2½ miles
Wynnewood - bypassed by 3 miles
Davis - bypassed by 3 miles
Springer - bypassed by 1½ miles
Ardmore - bypassed by 1 miles
Marietta - bypassed by ½ mile
Thackerville - bypassed by ½ mile
In contrast, I-35 in Texas goes within a mile of the center of most towns it passes through—Denton and Hillsboro being notable exceptions. Unlike most of the country, Texas viewed the construction of Interstates not merely as a means of getting Joe Traveler from A to Z, but also as a means of getting Joe Farmer from E to F to G to H along the way. So, in contrast to Oklahoma, there are usually frontage roads with frequent interchanges, and the path usually goes closer to town. So there is less need to keep both highways on the books, whereas towns in Oklahoma are less well-served by the nearby Interstate, so it makes more sense to keep the routes between them on the books.
Okay you are arguing semantics instead of my point. US 81 was decommissioned in most of Texas. US 77 lives on and I-35 was built to hug US 77.
Quote from: texaskdog on February 21, 2017, 01:30:36 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 21, 2017, 10:50:05 AM
Quote from: texaskdog on February 21, 2017, 10:09:07 AM
I believe when the Interstate system started Oklahoma passed a law that it had to run within a mile of the US highway so the businesses wouldn't suffer. Perhaps others know more about it than I do.
The physical reality is that they are not typically within a mile of each other. As you can see in the list below, the majority of towns along US-77/US-177 were bypassed by more than a mile.
[...list...]
In contrast, I-35 in Texas goes within a mile of the center of most towns it passes through–Denton and Hillsboro being notable exceptions. Unlike most of the country, Texas viewed the construction of Interstates not merely as a means of getting Joe Traveler from A to Z, but also as a means of getting Joe Farmer from E to F to G to H along the way. So, in contrast to Oklahoma, there are usually frontage roads with frequent interchanges, and the path usually goes closer to town. So there is less need to keep both highways on the books, whereas towns in Oklahoma are less well-served by the nearby Interstate, so it makes more sense to keep the routes between them on the books.
Okay you are arguing semantics instead of my point. US 81 was decommissioned in most of Texas. US 77 lives on and I-35 was built to hug US 77.
No, I'm arguing that...
<1> the phrase "has to be within a mile of I-35 is the law" is nonsense, which should be obvious by just looking at a map;
<2> I-35, not going through or very near most towns in Okla., did not truly replace US-77, so US-77 deserves to remain a state highway; and
<3> I-35 did truly replace US-81 in Texas by virtue of going through or very near most towns, so US-81's decommissioning was reasonable.
Okay well I didn't make it up! And you do see that the Interstate does hug the us highway.
Quote from: texaskdog on February 21, 2017, 02:51:09 PM
Okay well I didn't make it up! [citation needed] And you do see that the Interstate does hug [vague] the us highway.
My point, in fact, was that I
do not see it hug the US highway. Not any more than I-70 "hugs" US-40 through Illinois or Ohio, not any more than I-80 "hugs" US-30 through Nebraska, not any more than I-79 "hugs" US-19 through Pennsylvania, no more than I-87 "hugs" US-6 through New York, etc...
Quote from: kphoger on February 21, 2017, 03:43:16 PM
Quote from: texaskdog on February 21, 2017, 02:51:09 PM
Okay well I didn't make it up! [citation needed] And you do see that the Interstate does hug [vague] the us highway.
My point, in fact, was that I do not see it hug the US highway. Not any more than I-70 "hugs" US-40 through Illinois or Ohio, not any more than I-80 "hugs" US-30 through Nebraska, not any more than I-79 "hugs" US-19 through Pennsylvania, no more than I-87 "hugs" US-6 through New York, etc...
(edited)
Do you consider I-91 and US 5 to "hug"?
Also, you meant US 9, not US 6.
My working definition of "hugging" in this discussion is that the Interstate runs close enough to the towns that traffic going between said towns no longer has much use for the US Highway anymore. I'd say that is the case with US-81 in Texas (decommissioned) but not in the examples I cited–or at least most of them. The US Highways still serve as important links between the towns they go through.
I just saw a notice that the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority will raise tolls roughly 12% to help pay for the $939 million Driving Forward program of turnpike improvements.
Quote from: 1 on February 21, 2017, 03:49:55 PM
(edited)
Do you consider I-91 and US 5 to "hug"?
Also, you meant US 9, not US 6.
In New Hampshire and Massachusetts at least, yes. Connecticut, I could go either way. So yes, I think it would be reasonable to wonder why US-5 is still commissioned through there.
Wow, how did I put 6 instead of 9? They don't even run the same direction!
There was, in fact, a law passed by the Oklahoma legislature requiring I-35 to be built within a certain distance of US-77 in order to be eligible for state road funding. I have always seen it quoted as one mile, though the above measurements makes me wonder if that is the case (or if there is some sort of provision for topography considerations, or perhaps an average divergence of one mile over a certain distance). Also, as far as I know, the law only applied to southern Oklahoma (probably the segment south of I-40).
In any case, local interests in Wayne, Paoli, and Wynnewood were able to secure this legislation with the help of Governor Henry Bellmon. Bellmon at one point threatened to build a toll road rather than an I-35 that was too far away from US-77.
(Source for this is The Roads That Built America by Dan McNichol. I haven't looked up or read the original law.)
Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 20, 2017, 09:50:36 PMSpeed limits in OK are up to 75mph on the turnpikes and if I recall correctly rural stretches of I-40 and I-35 get up to 75mph too. 65mph and 70mph are common on US/State routes.
I don't know about I-40, but I can verify that as of last February 13, I-35 had no sections signed for more than 70.
Quote from: Brian556 on February 21, 2017, 12:35:46 AMIt is interesting how Oklahoma has the gridded county roads, but here in North Texas, county roads are random and far between.
Oklahoma is a PLSS state, though surveyed on its own meridian (the Indian Meridian), which does not quite line up with the Sixth Principal Meridian that is used for Kansas, Nebraska, and much of several other states to the north and west. Texas came into the United States already tentatively surveyed, though on a crazy patchwork quilt of rectilinear survey patterns tilted varying angles off true north to line up with riverbanks in various areas, so it is excluded from the PLSS.
Quote from: texaskdog on February 21, 2017, 10:09:07 AMI believe when the Interstate system started Oklahoma passed a law that it had to run within a mile of the US highway so the businesses wouldn't suffer. Perhaps others know more about it than I do.
There was a decision, made comparatively early on, that I-35 would be routed closer to US 77 than to US 177, as is indeed the case the entire way south of the US 60 dogleg overlap between Tonkawa and Ponca City where US 77 and US 177 "change places."
Quote from: texaskdog on February 20, 2017, 07:21:41 PM
I-35 just north of OKC is so bad that last year we pulled over thinking we had a flat. It still hasn't been fixed yet.
Which segment are you thinking of, exactly? I-35 is pretty rough along the I-44 overlap, but the length between Guthrie and the Stillwater exit (which includes what I think is the longest gap between exits on the untolled Oklahoma freeway network) was repaved last year and is still in good condition.
Quote from: sparker on February 23, 2017, 03:54:49 PM
Unless there's a pressing need, railroads -- both national carriers and local servers -- aren't in any hurry to lay more new-alignment trackage; they're more prone to double-track existing lines if the traffic is there to support that expense.
... and even to
un-double-track existing lines if the traffic is
not there to justify the maintenance costs.
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 23, 2017, 03:00:31 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 20, 2017, 09:50:36 PMSpeed limits in OK are up to 75mph on the turnpikes and if I recall correctly rural stretches of I-40 and I-35 get up to 75mph too. 65mph and 70mph are common on US/State routes.
I don't know about I-40, but I can verify that as of last February 13, I-35 had no sections signed for more than 70.
Quote from: Brian556 on February 21, 2017, 12:35:46 AMIt is interesting how Oklahoma has the gridded county roads, but here in North Texas, county roads are random and far between.
Oklahoma is a PLSS state, though surveyed on its own meridian (the Indian Meridian), which does not quite line up with the Sixth Principal Meridian that is used for Kansas, Nebraska, and much of several other states to the north and west. Texas came into the United States already tentatively surveyed, though on a crazy patchwork quilt of rectilinear survey patterns tilted varying angles off true north to line up with riverbanks in various areas, so it is excluded from the PLSS.
Quote from: texaskdog on February 21, 2017, 10:09:07 AMI believe when the Interstate system started Oklahoma passed a law that it had to run within a mile of the US highway so the businesses wouldn't suffer. Perhaps others know more about it than I do.
There was a decision, made comparatively early on, that I-35 would be routed closer to US 77 than to US 177, as is indeed the case the entire way south of the US 60 dogleg overlap between Tonkawa and Ponca City where US 77 and US 177 "change places."
Quote from: texaskdog on February 20, 2017, 07:21:41 PM
I-35 just north of OKC is so bad that last year we pulled over thinking we had a flat. It still hasn't been fixed yet.
Which segment are you thinking of, exactly? I-35 is pretty rough along the I-44 overlap, but the length between Guthrie and the Stillwater exit (which includes what I think is the longest gap between exits on the untolled Oklahoma freeway network) was repaved last year and is still in good condition.
The part of 35 just north of DT OKC and the split, northbound. Atrocious.
The stretch of I-35 in Oklahoma City between I-40 and I-44 is a very old road with lots of obsolete bridges that don't comply with modern Interstate design standards. The whole things needs a complete re-build.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 24, 2017, 12:29:23 AMThe stretch of I-35 in Oklahoma City between I-40 and I-44 is a very old road with lots of obsolete bridges that don't comply with modern Interstate design standards. The whole things needs a complete re-build.
Actually, I had the impression he was talking about the I-44 overlap, which is the next segment north. The part between I-40 and I-44 does have serious geometric inadequacies, but the asphalt overlay is still pretty smooth. The I-44 overlap is Portland cement concrete with asphalt shoulders: the concrete has bad spalling and D-cracking, while the right-hand shoulder has a more or less continuous pothole right at the fog line.
Both segments would benefit from reconstruction (certainly expansion between I-40 and I-44), but the traffic volumes are such that I think I would avoid OKC altogether for the two or three years it would take.