Inspired by the recent actions by the Minnesota state legislature, what changes wold you make to the other USA state flags that are blue sheets with a seal or other image in the middle. For example, Wisconsin modified its flag around 1980 by adding 'WISCONSIN' and '1848' to the design to make it more identifiable.
Mike
If nothing else, change the flag to use a state color instead of just the common navy blue.
State colors are, of course, up to each state. But pretty much every state has a flagship university that participates in athletics and therefore has specific colors that those athletic teams use. Those could be used as flag colors too.
Remove any text element, obviously.
Just remove the blue bedsheet idea in general. Each flag should be representative of its respective state, not the product of a template. I understand that the state seal is very important for eastern states, so they could implement features from those in the flags.
Quote from: mgk920 on December 21, 2023, 01:12:25 AM
For example, Wisconsin modified its flag around 1980 by adding 'WISCONSIN' and '1848' to the design to make it more identifiable.
That was the worst possible way to "fix" the flag. There are better ways to make flags more identifiable than by putting the state name on them.
Quote from: ran4sh on December 21, 2023, 01:27:49 AM
If nothing else, change the flag to use a state color instead of just the common navy blue.
State colors are, of course, up to each state. But pretty much every state has a flagship university that participates in athletics and therefore has specific colors that those athletic teams use. Those could be used as flag colors too.
Remove any text element, obviously.
I don't see why removing text elements is obvious. In fact, in comparing flags without text to flags with text, I find some with it superior.
So glad some states (First Utah, and now Minnesota) are changing their flags to better ones. It is about time it happens!
I assume it's only a matter of time before the rewriters of history come for Virginia's flag because it has the words "Sic Semper Tyrannis" displayed. The quotation is attributed to Brutus during the assassination of Julius Caesar, but John Wilkes Booth also used it when he shot Lincoln and no doubt some people would be blinded by that association.
No doubt some people at the other extreme end of the political spectrum object to the flag having a bare female breast displayed.
Quote from: Rothman on December 21, 2023, 07:01:49 AM
Quote from: ran4sh on December 21, 2023, 01:27:49 AM
If nothing else, change the flag to use a state color instead of just the common navy blue.
State colors are, of course, up to each state. But pretty much every state has a flagship university that participates in athletics and therefore has specific colors that those athletic teams use. Those could be used as flag colors too.
Remove any text element, obviously.
I don't see why removing text elements is obvious. In fact, in comparing flags without text to flags with text, I find some with it superior.
Traditionally, a flag's design is supposed to be distinct from far away, since it would be carried by a marching army and you need to know whether you should be getting ready to shoot at them or not. A flag that you can only tell who it belongs to when it gets close enough to read the two-inch text at the bottom of it kind of fails at the purpose of a flag.
(Oklahoma's flag originally had no text on it, but then they added the word OKLAHOMA to "improve literacy". Explain to me how that works...)
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 21, 2023, 07:50:39 AM
Quote from: Rothman on December 21, 2023, 07:01:49 AM
Quote from: ran4sh on December 21, 2023, 01:27:49 AM
If nothing else, change the flag to use a state color instead of just the common navy blue.
State colors are, of course, up to each state. But pretty much every state has a flagship university that participates in athletics and therefore has specific colors that those athletic teams use. Those could be used as flag colors too.
Remove any text element, obviously.
I don't see why removing text elements is obvious. In fact, in comparing flags without text to flags with text, I find some with it superior.
Traditionally, a flag's design is supposed to be distinct from far away, since it would be carried by a marching army and you need to know whether you should be getting ready to shoot at them or not. A flag that you can only tell who it belongs to when it gets close enough to read the two-inch text at the bottom of it kind of fails at the purpose of a flag.
(Oklahoma's flag originally had no text on it, but then they added the word OKLAHOMA to "improve literacy". Explain to me how that works...)
Easy: It doesn't.
IMHO,
- You cannot force meaning and history. Some states have great interesting flags because of meaningful issues in the past, some have the state seal on a blue because they don't.
- Yeah, there are 100 YouTubes out there of some person's, often some kid's, basic stereotype of a state (horse for KY, peach for GA, dice for NV, etc.) but that is just silly.
- Minnesota's flag, while they made up some "the blue is for the lakes, and the star is the north star..." ho-ha is meaningless. It could just as easily be the flag of Florida, or Zambia. Same goes for Utah's. Yes, I get the Mormon symbolism of the beehive, but I doubt most people do.
- The Indian and Civil War arguments will never be resolved, in the state seal context or 100 other contexts, so talking about them is pointless.
- Likewise some states have great state seals (Ohio, Virginia, Nebraska), others have one or two allegorical ancients or two 19th century characters shaking hands or the like. It is what it is.
- I am unaware of what a "flagship" university is. One where one studies sailing? If you mean a university named with same word(s) as on your driver's license, then good luck muddling through all the arguments that would cause.
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 21, 2023, 07:50:39 AM
Traditionally, a flag's design is supposed to be distinct from far away, since it would be carried by a marching army and you need to know whether you should be getting ready to shoot at them or not.
This is meaningless in the context of state flags. I don't foresee Kansas and Oklahoma fighting it out on the battlefield anytime soon.
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 21, 2023, 07:50:39 AM
Quote from: Rothman on December 21, 2023, 07:01:49 AM
Quote from: ran4sh on December 21, 2023, 01:27:49 AM
If nothing else, change the flag to use a state color instead of just the common navy blue.
State colors are, of course, up to each state. But pretty much every state has a flagship university that participates in athletics and therefore has specific colors that those athletic teams use. Those could be used as flag colors too.
Remove any text element, obviously.
I don't see why removing text elements is obvious. In fact, in comparing flags without text to flags with text, I find some with it superior.
Traditionally, a flag's design is supposed to be distinct from far away, since it would be carried by a marching army and you need to know whether you should be getting ready to shoot at them or not. A flag that you can only tell who it belongs to when it gets close enough to read the two-inch text at the bottom of it kind of fails at the purpose of a flag.
(Oklahoma's flag originally had no text on it, but then they added the word OKLAHOMA to "improve literacy". Explain to me how that works...)
These are State flags we're talking about. Although I am amused by the idea of a new civil war where armies or battalions go marching into combat with their actual State flags, most flag displays are decorative or even meant to be viewed up close (e.g., in conference rooms).
I still prefer detail to the modern, too-crisp look of the newer flags.
Maybe NY should change its flag to a close-up of the foot kicking the crown...
Quote from: jlam on December 21, 2023, 01:28:09 AM
Just remove the blue bedsheet idea in general. Each flag should be representative of its respective state, not the product of a template. I understand that the state seal is very important for eastern states, so they could implement features from those in the flags.
Quote from: mgk920 on December 21, 2023, 01:12:25 AM
For example, Wisconsin modified its flag around 1980 by adding 'WISCONSIN' and '1848' to the design to make it more identifiable.
That was the worst possible way to "fix" the flag. There are better ways to make flags more identifiable than by putting the state name on them.
But a seal in the middle of the flag results in detail that's much too small to see when the flag is flying. Instead, they should take the most distinctive, recognizable detail from the seal and fill the flag with it. See how the old Canadian red ensign's maple leaf (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Red_Ensign) was enlarged to be a recognizable element on the current Canadian flag.
Quote from: SP Cook on December 21, 2023, 09:17:32 AM
- I am unaware of what a "flagship" university is. One where one studies sailing? If you mean a university named with same word(s) as on your driver's license, then good luck muddling through all the arguments that would cause.
Georgia's new state flag has the symbol of the University of Georgia in its blue ensign.
Mike
Quote from: mgk920 on December 21, 2023, 03:33:44 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on December 21, 2023, 09:17:32 AM
- I am unaware of what a "flagship" university is. One where one studies sailing? If you mean a university named with same word(s) as on your driver's license, then good luck muddling through all the arguments that would cause.
Georgia's new state flag has the symbol of the University of Georgia in its blue ensign.
Mike
And no one from Georgia Tech minds? (Let alone any smaller state schools and private colleges.)
Try that in Michigan. UM and State fans would go nuts if the flag colors were either of the other school's.
Quote from: GaryV on December 21, 2023, 03:42:18 PM
Try that in Michigan. UM and State fans would go nuts if the flag colors were either of the other school's.
Yet the state highway signs have UM's logo on it.
Quote from: mgk920 on December 21, 2023, 03:33:44 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on December 21, 2023, 09:17:32 AM
- I am unaware of what a "flagship" university is. One where one studies sailing? If you mean a university named with same word(s) as on your driver's license, then good luck muddling through all the arguments that would cause.
Georgia's new state flag has the symbol of the University of Georgia in its blue ensign.
Mike
It's a state symbol, which is why it is appropriate for use both on the flag and at the university.
Quote from: GaryV on December 21, 2023, 03:42:18 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on December 21, 2023, 03:33:44 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on December 21, 2023, 09:17:32 AM
- I am unaware of what a "flagship" university is. One where one studies sailing? If you mean a university named with same word(s) as on your driver's license, then good luck muddling through all the arguments that would cause.
Georgia's new state flag has the symbol of the University of Georgia in its blue ensign.
Mike
And no one from Georgia Tech minds? (Let alone any smaller state schools and private colleges.)
Try that in Michigan. UM and State fans would go nuts if the flag colors were either of the other school's.
Would Michigan Tech's colors do?
Mike
Quote from: mgk920 on December 22, 2023, 02:56:36 PM
Quote from: GaryV on December 21, 2023, 03:42:18 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on December 21, 2023, 03:33:44 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on December 21, 2023, 09:17:32 AM
- I am unaware of what a "flagship" university is. One where one studies sailing? If you mean a university named with same word(s) as on your driver's license, then good luck muddling through all the arguments that would cause.
Georgia's new state flag has the symbol of the University of Georgia in its blue ensign.
Mike
And no one from Georgia Tech minds? (Let alone any smaller state schools and private colleges.)
Try that in Michigan. UM and State fans would go nuts if the flag colors were either of the other school's.
Would Michigan Tech's colors do?
Mike
A flag with a picture of blank and yellow striped overalls?
Maryland doesn't fit this template, as can be clearly seen, so I'll go with Pennsylvania's, which first and foremost must have a keystone front and center.
Quote from: epzik8 on December 22, 2023, 04:01:47 PM
Maryland doesn't fit this template, as can be clearly seen, so I'll go with Pennsylvania's, which first and foremost must have a keystone front and center.
I wonder what New York would use. Ditto New Jersey, even though there's is not a dark blue sheet.
Nike
Quote from: kkt on December 21, 2023, 01:58:04 PM
Quote from: jlam on December 21, 2023, 01:28:09 AM
Just remove the blue bedsheet idea in general. Each flag should be representative of its respective state, not the product of a template. I understand that the state seal is very important for eastern states, so they could implement features from those in the flags.
Quote from: mgk920 on December 21, 2023, 01:12:25 AM
For example, Wisconsin modified its flag around 1980 by adding 'WISCONSIN' and '1848' to the design to make it more identifiable.
That was the worst possible way to "fix" the flag. There are better ways to make flags more identifiable than by putting the state name on them.
But a seal in the middle of the flag results in detail that's much too small to see when the flag is flying. Instead, they should take the most distinctive, recognizable detail from the seal and fill the flag with it. See how the old Canadian red ensign's maple leaf (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Red_Ensign) was enlarged to be a recognizable element on the current Canadian flag.
I fell into the history of Canadian flags thanks to your link, and then this came over the transom:
When Governor Snyder was preparing to assume office, he issued a call for fresh ideas to say that a new day was starting in Michigan. I submitted two proposals to change our state flag. I got no response, and our flag was left unchanged.
In terms of issues, the store where I work was once shipped a case of Minnesota state flags that had been mislabeled as Michigan flags. I mean, it was still a blue flag with a seal on it from a state that started with MI... from a distance, no one would know any better, right? Therein lies the problem with all of these similar flags. From a distance, you just can't tell them apart. If the purpose of a flag is to be identifiable, they fail in their incredible similarity. They do work internally to a state because we're each nominally familiar with our state seal, but few among us are familiar with all of the state seals to start making guesses on the other flag designs. When you have to resort to adding text to a flag, you've failed Vexillology 101. I'm hopefully this redesign trend carries on.
Quote from: kphoger on December 21, 2023, 11:38:21 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 21, 2023, 07:50:39 AM
Traditionally, a flag's design is supposed to be distinct from far away, since it would be carried by a marching army and you need to know whether you should be getting ready to shoot at them or not.
This is meaningless in the context of state flags. I don't foresee Kansas and Oklahoma fighting it out on the battlefield anytime soon.
It wasn't so far in the history of this country that states did fight over borders. If you are not familiar with it, look up the Toledo Strip War between Ohio and Michigan because of a cartographical error. This resulted in Toledo being in Ohio and as compensation, Michigan got the Upper Peninsula which was part of the Wisconsin Territory at the time.
It also goes for local jurisdictions too. Ever wonder why when you look at a map of Downtown Milwaukee the bridges are at odd angles over the Milwaukee River? Before Milwaukee was a unified city, it was made up of 3 rival towns. Juneautown, Kilbourntown and Walker's Point. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milwaukee_Bridge_War
Quote from: Big John on December 21, 2023, 04:44:14 PM
Quote from: GaryV on December 21, 2023, 03:42:18 PM
Try that in Michigan. UM and State fans would go nuts if the flag colors were either of the other school's.
Yet the state highway signs have UM's logo on it.
Compromise. The state highways get the UM logo M and the state flag background becomes Spartan Green.
...And then there's Ohio with their state "pennant" ....
Quote from: hobsini2 on December 27, 2023, 05:01:45 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 21, 2023, 11:38:21 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 21, 2023, 07:50:39 AM
Traditionally, a flag's design is supposed to be distinct from far away, since it would be carried by a marching army and you need to know whether you should be getting ready to shoot at them or not.
This is meaningless in the context of state flags. I don't foresee Kansas and Oklahoma fighting it out on the battlefield anytime soon.
It wasn't so far in the history of this country that states did fight over borders. If you are not familiar with it, look up the Toledo Strip War between Ohio and Michigan because of a cartographical error. This resulted in Toledo being in Ohio and as compensation, Michigan got the Upper Peninsula which was part of the Wisconsin Territory at the time.
It also goes for local jurisdictions too. Ever wonder why when you look at a map of Downtown Milwaukee the bridges are at odd angles over the Milwaukee River? Before Milwaukee was a unified city, it was made up of 3 rival towns. Juneautown, Kilbourntown and Walker's Point. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milwaukee_Bridge_War
A few years ago, the USSupremes settled a dispute between New Jersey and New York regarding where their mutual state line is on Ellis Island.
Mike
Nevada's blue sheet with the "Battle Born" emblem (not the state seal) should be replaced with a flag with a big slot machine on it. Yes, just about all states have slot machines now, but Nevada was the original.
Alternately we could honor the mining history. The general idea of the current flag was adopted in 1929 with some changes in 1991; 100 years ought to be a good time for an overhaul.
Quote from: ran4sh on December 21, 2023, 01:27:49 AM
If nothing else, change the flag to use a state color instead of just the common navy blue.
State colors are, of course, up to each state. But pretty much every state has a flagship university that participates in athletics and therefore has specific colors that those athletic teams use. Those could be used as flag colors too.
Remove any text element, obviously.
Washington uses a green flag with the state seal on it. It's the only US state with green, so it stands out a little bit - but the state seal is still too small for any detail.
Quote from: hobsini2 on December 27, 2023, 05:01:45 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 21, 2023, 11:38:21 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 21, 2023, 07:50:39 AM
Traditionally, a flag's design is supposed to be distinct from far away, since it would be carried by a marching army and you need to know whether you should be getting ready to shoot at them or not.
This is meaningless in the context of state flags. I don't foresee Kansas and Oklahoma fighting it out on the battlefield anytime soon.
It wasn't so far in the history of this country that states did fight over borders. If you are not familiar with it, look up the Toledo Strip War between Ohio and Michigan because of a cartographical error. This resulted in Toledo being in Ohio and as compensation, Michigan got the Upper Peninsula which was part of the Wisconsin Territory at the time.
It also goes for local jurisdictions too. Ever wonder why when you look at a map of Downtown Milwaukee the bridges are at odd angles over the Milwaukee River? Before Milwaukee was a unified city, it was made up of 3 rival towns. Juneautown, Kilbourntown and Walker's Point. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milwaukee_Bridge_War
What flags did those armies march under?
Maine is voting next year on a referendum to replace their current "blue sheet with seal" flag with a variation of their 1901 pine tree flag, which has seen a resurgence in popularity. I hope it passes; the old flag is a nice design and much more distinctive.
Quote from: TheCatalyst31 on December 28, 2023, 10:19:52 PM
Maine is voting next year on a referendum to replace their current "blue sheet with seal" flag with a variation of their 1901 pine tree flag, which has seen a resurgence in popularity. I hope it passes; the old flag is a nice design and much more distinctive.
Oh I like this! Found it on google.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/Flag_of_Maine_%281901-1909%29.svg/1200px-Flag_of_Maine_%281901-1909%29.svg.png)
The current flag of the City of Milwaukee, WI has an uninspiring mish-mash of symbolism on a blue sheet, but there is an unofficial 'peoples' flag' that is slowly growing in popularity that did win a local competition for a new city flag design, but has yet to be formally adopted. https://milwaukeeflag.com/ It would look nice side-by-side with the very familiar flag of the nearby City of Chicago.
Mike
Quote from: mgk920 on January 08, 2024, 01:02:11 PM
there is an unofficial 'peoples' flag' that is slowly growing in popularity that did win a local competition for a new city flag design, but has yet to be formally adopted
... but still manages to look like a corporate logo.
If Montana can evolve its flag from its current design to something that still encapsulates what the state represents without the gaudy seal in the middle, it'd be something I'd be willing to display on my wall or have flying in the breeze.
Quote from: kphoger on January 08, 2024, 01:07:31 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on January 08, 2024, 01:02:11 PM
there is an unofficial 'peoples' flag' that is slowly growing in popularity that did win a local competition for a new city flag design, but has yet to be formally adopted
... but still manages to look like a corporate logo.
Specifically, it reminds me of the Minolta logo. Milwaukee's 'peoples' flag would look more at home flying in a corporate business park than at city hall.
So why don't some of the artistic people in this forum come up some designs for the boring "seal on blue" flags? There are some states that can get away with using the state seal because the background is a different color than blue or the seal itself is recognizable.
I would leave the following state flags as they are:
AL, AK, AZ, AR, CA, CO, HI, IL, IN, IA, LA, MD, MA, new MN, MS, MO, NJ, NM, NY, OH, OK, OR reverse side only, RI, SC, TN, TX, new UT, WA, WY, DC
So that leaves 21 states that should get redesigned.
Some of these states should use old designs or elements of the older designs.
Kansas proposed flag from 1916-1917 with just the sunflower in the upper left blue area.
Maine to the 1901-1909 flag (shown above).
Washington is disinct among state flages because the state seal is on a solid green background, true. But the detail in the state seal is still way too small be made out when the flag is flying. I would propose adapting George Washington's arms - on a white field, two red bars with three stars above them, which is familiar as the flag of Washington DC. For Washington State, I'd just use green bars and stars instead of red. Shows our name's origin, and is recognizable from a distance.
Wisconsin's flag is mediocre. Yet I've somehow never come across a redesign I like. There are many on the vexillology subreddit and some are truly awful.
Quote from: kphoger on January 09, 2024, 12:32:06 PM
Quote from: kphoger on January 08, 2024, 01:07:31 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on January 08, 2024, 01:02:11 PM
there is an unofficial 'peoples' flag' that is slowly growing in popularity that did win a local competition for a new city flag design, but has yet to be formally adopted
... but still manages to look like a corporate logo.
Specifically, it reminds me of the Minolta logo. Milwaukee's 'peoples' flag would look more at home flying in a corporate business park than at city hall.
I don't know. I could see this at the UN:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/9e/Flag_of_Japan.svg/800px-Flag_of_Japan.svg.png?20111003030759) (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/20/Flag_of_the_Netherlands.svg/1280px-Flag_of_the_Netherlands.svg.png) (https://i.imgur.com/ffVVRVy.png)
(https://www.konicaminoltaoffer.co.uk/wp/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/flag.jpg) (https://videopostercdn.weigelbroadcasting.com/cbs58news/peoples%20flag%20of%20mke_1530589485-CBS58%20980x551.jpg)
Quote from: kphoger on January 19, 2024, 01:14:10 PM
(https://www.konicaminoltaoffer.co.uk/wp/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/flag.jpg) (https://videopostercdn.weigelbroadcasting.com/cbs58news/peoples%20flag%20of%20mke_1530589485-CBS58%20980x551.jpg)
The only 'ulterior' thing that I can see in that proposed Milwaukee city flag is the colors of the National League's Milwaukee Brewers.
Mike
Quote from: kphoger on January 09, 2024, 12:32:06 PM
Quote from: kphoger on January 08, 2024, 01:07:31 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on January 08, 2024, 01:02:11 PM
there is an unofficial 'peoples' flag' that is slowly growing in popularity that did win a local competition for a new city flag design, but has yet to be formally adopted
... but still manages to look like a corporate logo.
Specifically, it reminds me of the Minolta logo. Milwaukee's 'peoples' flag would look more at home flying in a corporate business park than at city hall.
For cities and states (and countries), flags
are their logo, or at least, the "logo" they represent to the world with broadest distribution.
Like it or not, if you see the US flag you know exactly what it is, what it means to its citizens, and who's flying it.
If you travel to Chicago, their flag is everywhere. It's simple. It's fairly unique. It's easy to identify. It's a source of civic pride.
QuoteThe flag of Chicago consists of two light blue horizontal bars, or stripes, on a field of white, each bar one-sixth the height of the full flag, and placed slightly less than one-sixth of the way from the top and bottom. Four bright red stars, with six sharp points each, are set side by side, close together, in the middle third of the flag's surface.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Chicago (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Chicago)
Someone complained that the flag of Utah is meaningful mostly only if you're from Utah. Well, that's the point. It's meaningful to its residents. If it's not meaningful to you, well, you're probably not the constituency that they're worried about.
Kansas City just redid the city's flag and it's the first version I've seen that I'd be proud to put up at my house.
QuoteThe current flag has meaning in various parts of its design. For example, the red bar on top represents the kindness and warm heartedness of the people of Kansas City. The blue bar on the bottom represents the nearby Missouri River. The white emblem in the center is a fountain, representing how Kansas City is the city of fountains. The emblem also has a vague heart silhouette, showing how Kansas City is the heart of the nation, and again alluding to the compassion of the citizens of Kansas City.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Kansas_City,_Missouri (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Kansas_City,_Missouri)
The colors also happen to be (or nearly be, anyway) the primary colors of the city's MLB and NFL teams.
Missouri's current flag is pretty good, but in honesty I'd remove the seal inside the ring of stars and leave that as a white space. Simple, distinctive enough, and relatively easy to identify from a distance.
Vexillologically speaking, there are a few simple rules that separate "good" flags from mediocre or just bad. The North American Vexillological Association defines them this way:
QuoteThe Five Principles are:
- Keep It Simple. The flag should be so simple that a child can draw it from memory.
- Use Meaningful Symbolism. The flag's images, colors, or patterns should relate to what it symbolizes.
- Use 2 or 3 Basic Colors. Limit the number of colors on the flag to three which contrast well and come from the standard color set.
- No Lettering or Seals. Never use writing of any kind or an organization's seal.
- Be Distinctive or Be Related. Avoid duplicating other flags, but use similarities to show connections.
https://nava.org/good-flag-bad-flag (https://nava.org/good-flag-bad-flag)
Note that a seal is different from a logo. Kansas City's seal and Kansas City's heart/fountain logo are totally different things. Most seals are highly detailed, which means that those small details show authenticity, but from a distance they become less and less distinct.
Quote from: fhmiii on January 19, 2024, 02:32:36 PM
For cities and states (and countries), flags are their logo, or at least, the "logo" they represent to the world with broadest distribution.
Quote from: fhmiii on January 19, 2024, 02:32:36 PM
Someone complained that the flag of Utah is meaningful mostly only if you're from Utah. Well, that's the point. It's meaningful to its residents. If it's not meaningful to you, well, you're probably not the constituency that they're worried about.
Those two ideas seem contradictory to me. Is a flag's "target audience" supposed to be the world, or is it supposed to be the residents?
Quote from: fhmiii on January 19, 2024, 02:32:36 PM
Vexillologically speaking, there are a few simple rules that separate "good" flags from mediocre or just bad. The North American Vexillological Association defines them this way:
QuoteThe Five Principles are:
- Keep It Simple. The flag should be so simple that a child can draw it from memory.
- Use Meaningful Symbolism. The flag's images, colors, or patterns should relate to what it symbolizes.
- Use 2 or 3 Basic Colors. Limit the number of colors on the flag to three which contrast well and come from the standard color set.
- No Lettering or Seals. Never use writing of any kind or an organization's seal.
- Be Distinctive or Be Related. Avoid duplicating other flags, but use similarities to show connections.
https://nava.org/good-flag-bad-flag (https://nava.org/good-flag-bad-flag)
Because the North American Vexillological Association is the ultimate authority on what makes a good flag? It's one guy's opinions, and the association adopted it, and now everyone holds it up as Gospel.
It's my opinion that taking such a dogmatic approach to flag design tends to take a bad design and replace it with one that's bad for different reasons.
The Milwaukee people's flag's "meaningful symbolism" tells me that they have a sun and some body of water where it either rises or sets. Well, that pretty much describes any city on either coast, plus Chicago. The issue is that there is only so much good symbolism that can be represented when adhering to principles 1, 3, and 4. Trees, stars, water, sun, that kind of thing. And, when every city and state starts changing their flags to adhere to those guidelines, then principle 5 goes out the window: because they all adhere to the same design principles, they begin to all look the same, losing their distinctiveness.
A flag that flies (see what I did there?) in the face of the first principle is
that of Venice (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=34281.msg2893293#msg2893293), and yet it's awesome nonetheless. Good luck getting a child to draw the red dragon of the Welsh flag, but it's also awesome. Same with Sri Lanka. If you removed the shield from the Swazi flag, it would adhere better to the principles but become less awesome.
Or, as I posted in the Minnesota flag discussion, as a summary of JJ McCullough's take (which I generally agree with):
Quote from: kphoger on December 29, 2023, 09:17:39 AM
In the name of eradicating humdrum same-looking flags, but through dogmatic adherence to an arbitrary set of good-flag-making rules, we are instead ending up with differently same-looking flags—and not only is that not actually a real improvement, but in fact disallowing bizarre and quirky flag designs effectively funnels the chosen designs into being stale and un-unique.
I think California's flag is pretty good and it doesn't really hurt that it says California Republic along the bottom.
There's lot of symbolism that can be used. Many real and mythical beasts, birds, and sea creatures. San Francisco's flag is a phoenix rising from the flames. (Many people mistakenly think that's representing the city's rebuilding after the 1906 earthquake and fire, but they had already adopted the phoenix before then. S.F. suffered a whole series of disasterous fires in the 1800s. Fire codes are written in blood.)
Quote from: kphoger on January 19, 2024, 03:06:25 PM
Because the North American Vexillological Association is the ultimate authority on what makes a good flag?
Yes. Yes they are.
Quote from: kkt on January 19, 2024, 03:49:05 PM
it doesn't really hurt that it says California Republic along the bottom
It violates Ted Kaye's Fourth Principle, therefore it is
BAD.
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 19, 2024, 04:02:22 PM
Quote from: kphoger on January 19, 2024, 03:06:25 PM
Because the North American Vexillological Association is the ultimate authority on what makes a good flag?
Yes. Yes they are.
Any system that says Maryland's flag is worse than Samoa's flag is broken from the start.
Quote from: kphoger on January 19, 2024, 03:06:25 PM
Quote from: fhmiii on January 19, 2024, 02:32:36 PM
For cities and states (and countries), flags are their logo, or at least, the "logo" they represent to the world with broadest distribution.
Quote from: fhmiii on January 19, 2024, 02:32:36 PM
Someone complained that the flag of Utah is meaningful mostly only if you're from Utah. Well, that's the point. It's meaningful to its residents. If it's not meaningful to you, well, you're probably not the constituency that they're worried about.
Those two ideas seem contradictory to me. Is a flag's "target audience" supposed to be the world, or is it supposed to be the residents?
Quote from: fhmiii on January 19, 2024, 02:32:36 PM
Vexillologically speaking, there are a few simple rules that separate "good" flags from mediocre or just bad. The North American Vexillological Association defines them this way:
QuoteThe Five Principles are:
- Keep It Simple. The flag should be so simple that a child can draw it from memory.
- Use Meaningful Symbolism. The flag's images, colors, or patterns should relate to what it symbolizes.
- Use 2 or 3 Basic Colors. Limit the number of colors on the flag to three which contrast well and come from the standard color set.
- No Lettering or Seals. Never use writing of any kind or an organization's seal.
- Be Distinctive or Be Related. Avoid duplicating other flags, but use similarities to show connections.
https://nava.org/good-flag-bad-flag (https://nava.org/good-flag-bad-flag)
Because the North American Vexillological Association is the ultimate authority on what makes a good flag? It's one guy's opinions, and the association adopted it, and now everyone holds it up as Gospel.
It's my opinion that taking such a dogmatic approach to flag design tends to take a bad design and replace it with one that's bad for different reasons.
The Milwaukee people's flag's "meaningful symbolism" tells me that they have a sun and some body of water where it either rises or sets. Well, that pretty much describes any city on either coast, plus Chicago. The issue is that there is only so much good symbolism that can be represented when adhering to principles 1, 3, and 4. Trees, stars, water, sun, that kind of thing. And, when every city and state starts changing their flags to adhere to those guidelines, then principle 5 goes out the window: because they all adhere to the same design principles, they begin to all look the same, losing their distinctiveness.
A flag that flies (see what I did there?) in the face of the first principle is that of Venice (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=34281.msg2893293#msg2893293), and yet it's awesome nonetheless. Good luck getting a child to draw the red dragon of the Welsh flag, but it's also awesome. Same with Sri Lanka. If you removed the shield from the Swazi flag, it would adhere better to the principles but become less awesome.
Or, as I posted in the Minnesota flag discussion, as a summary of JJ McCullough's take (which I generally agree with):
Quote from: kphoger on December 29, 2023, 09:17:39 AM
In the name of eradicating humdrum same-looking flags, but through dogmatic adherence to an arbitrary set of good-flag-making rules, we are instead ending up with differently same-looking flags—and not only is that not actually a real improvement, but in fact disallowing bizarre and quirky flag designs effectively funnels the chosen designs into being stale and un-unique.
I think what you're misunderstanding is that the Five Principles are meant as
guidelines, not
laws. It's generally better to adhere to them than not, but each flag will do some parts of those principles better than others. Really bad flags will ignore most or all of them. And occasionally a really good flag will emerge from ignoring them, too.
I'm not keen on many of the flags that are being adopted today as, you're quite right, some of them do look a little "too corporate" and many of them do look alike. I think that's more to do with lack of imagination from civic leaders (i.e. they want to use the flag on stationery as a formal logo) than it does with adhering to the Five Principles. For example, I don't think the final Utah flag was the best version as it looks more like a corporate logo than a flag, but I did like the general concept. Meanwhile while I actually fairly like the adopted new Minnesota flag. As I stated before, I like Missouri's flag if we just drop the state seal out of the center, but it's a lot better than many flags already.
Maryland's flag is a very good flag even though it would be difficult for a child to draw it accurately and is by no means "simple." It's distinctive, has a basic color set, uses no lettering or seals, and has meaningful symbolism (Maryland was a Catholic colony that was friendly to French immigrants and much of the flag's iconography is French and/or Catholic).
The Welsh Dragon you mentioned would be difficult for a child to draw, but the
impression of the red dragon on a green-white bi-color is not. That they could remember and replicate the concept, not the exact format, is more what the Five Principles is talking about in Principle 1. Plus it's unique enough such that even if you saw it from a distance, you're not going to confuse it with some other country's dragon on a bi-color (Principle 5).
When looking at Principle 1, think of Canada's flag. A three-field bi-color with a maple leaf in the center. Is a child going to get the maple leaf, color, and proportionality exactly right? Probably not, but what they'll draw will almost certainly be identifiable as a red leaf, and it will have red fields flanking a white center.
Regarding Venice's flag, I differ on your opinion of it being "awesome." I don't particularly care for it, but to each his own. And yet! It generally meets the principles of basic coloring (mostly gold on red, except in those detail areas that violate Principle 1), useful symbolism, and it's
very distinctive. It's not terribly simple (though it does have some identifiable "broad strokes," conceptually speaking, that could be boiled down to a small icon) and the lettering it contains is fairly small. The areas with intense detail are tasteful and interesting, while most flags with seals or other detail areas really aren't tasteful or interesting. 3 out of 5 ain't bad, considering how really bad a lot of other flags are, and the 2 that don't meet the Principles are at least either artful or minimized.
As a last point, NAVA is not "one guy." It's an association of many people. "One guy" just wrote the GF/BF pamphlet. There's an international association for people with the same interests ("FIAV" I think).
Quote from: kphoger on January 19, 2024, 03:06:25 PM
Good luck getting a child to draw the red dragon of the Welsh flag, but it's also awesome. Same with Sri Lanka. If you removed the shield from the Swazi flag, it would adhere better to the principles but become less awesome.
I don't think the principle of, "The flag should be so simple that a child can draw it from memory," means the same thing as being easy to draw. It just needs to be able to see in your head. For Wales that would be: white top half, green bottom half and big red dragon in the middle. The flag of Kentucky, say, with this system is: blue background with circle of stuff in the middle, and so is New Hampshire and Nebraska, and so on, and so in practice they're the same.
Quote from: kphoger on January 19, 2024, 04:13:41 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 19, 2024, 04:02:22 PM
Quote from: kphoger on January 19, 2024, 03:06:25 PM
Because the North American Vexillological Association is the ultimate authority on what makes a good flag?
Yes. Yes they are.
Any system that says Maryland's flag is worse than Samoa's flag is broken from the start.
There was no system in place that made all of the kids in my fourth grade class avoid picking Maryland for their report about one of the states...they did that because part of the presentation involved drawing the flag and nobody wanted to get stuck with drawing Maryland's.
I managed to avoid getting stuck with drawing it then, and then had to do a Maryland welcome sign for work, so I got stuck drawing it at age 32. It wasn't any more fun then.
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 19, 2024, 04:39:36 PM
Quote from: kphoger on January 19, 2024, 04:13:41 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 19, 2024, 04:02:22 PM
Quote from: kphoger on January 19, 2024, 03:06:25 PM
Because the North American Vexillological Association is the ultimate authority on what makes a good flag?
Yes. Yes they are.
Any system that says Maryland's flag is worse than Samoa's flag is broken from the start.
There was no system in place that made all of the kids in my fourth grade class avoid picking Maryland for their report about one of the states...they did that because part of the presentation involved drawing the flag and nobody wanted to get stuck with drawing Maryland's.
I like the geometric countercharges in the flag, but having two of them doubled is too much. I would use just one quarter, the gold and black one, if only because the other one was used by Confederate sympathizers during the Civil War.
QuoteThose two ideas seem contradictory to me. Is a flag's "target audience" supposed to be the world, or is it supposed to be the residents?
Missed this before. The flag is a representation to
interested parties, the vast majority of whom are going to be the citizens of the country/residents of the political subdivision. To put it another way:
- The iconography has to be meaningful to the constituents.
- It should be distinct enough to easily identify the polity to the outside world.
Quote from: fhmiii on January 19, 2024, 04:33:12 PM
Maryland's flag is a very good flag even though it would be difficult for a child to draw it accurately and is by no means "simple." It's distinctive, has a basic color set, uses no lettering or seals, and has meaningful symbolism (Maryland was a Catholic colony that was friendly to French immigrants and much of the flag's iconography is French and/or Catholic).
The Welsh Dragon you mentioned would be difficult for a child to draw, but the impression of the red dragon on a green-white bi-color is not. That they could remember and replicate the concept, not the exact format, is more what the Five Principles is talking about in Principle 1. Plus it's unique enough such that even if you saw it from a distance, you're not going to confuse it with some other country's dragon on a bi-color (Principle 5).
You're right. Principle #1 works a lot better if we decide that it means something other than what it says. And also, limiting flags to two or three colors works a lot better if we decide that "two of three" means "four or five". A lot of my issue is with these two principles. A lot of my favorite flags could not be drawn by a child from memory because they contain something that even an
adult couldn't draw. And some of my favorite flags have more than three colors: Maryland, for example, and South Africa for another.
Quote from: fhmiii on January 19, 2024, 04:33:12 PM
When looking at Principle 1, think of Canada's flag. A three-field bi-color with a maple leaf in the center. Is a child going to get the maple leaf, color, and proportionality exactly right? Probably not, but what they'll draw will almost certainly be identifiable as a red leaf, and it will have red fields flanking a white center.
Yes, Canada's flag is amazing in its simplicity, subtly unique proportions, and meaningful symbolism. And yeah, a kid can draw a leaf, even if all the angles aren't quite right. It's a winner, in my opinion.
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 19, 2024, 04:02:22 PM
Quote from: kphoger on January 19, 2024, 03:06:25 PM
Because the North American Vexillological Association is the ultimate authority on what makes a good flag?
Yes. Yes they are.
And why is that? Is flag design not something inherently artistic and subjective?
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 19, 2024, 04:39:36 PM
There was no system in place that made all of the kids in my fourth grade class avoid picking Maryland for their report about one of the states...they did that because part of the presentation involved drawing the flag and nobody wanted to get stuck with drawing Maryland's.
I managed to avoid getting stuck with drawing it then, and then had to do a Maryland welcome sign for work, so I got stuck drawing it at age 32. It wasn't any more fun then.
I agree that Maryland's flag is difficult to draw, especially by children. And I still maintain that it's an awesome flag.
Quote from: fhmiii on January 19, 2024, 04:52:08 PM
- The iconography has to be meaningful to the constituents.
- It should be distinct enough to easily identify the polity to the outside world.
And I'm saying that adherence to such a dogmatic list of design principles limits the pool of useable iconography and limits flags' ability to be distinctive.
How about using SVG size as a benchmark? Maryland's is 880 bytes, much lower than Massachusetts's 125 KB or New Hampshire's 103 KB. Even Wales's dragon is lower than MA or NH at 15 KB, and for a different dragon, Bhutan is 36 KB. Sri Lanka has a lion similar to the dragons, and it's 19 KB. Venice's flag is 4.43 MB.
Minnesota drops from 166 KB to 539 bytes, and Utah drops from 127 KB to 2 KB.
Quote from: kphoger on January 19, 2024, 04:56:14 PM
You're right. Principle #1 works a lot better if we decide that it means something other than what it says. And also, limiting flags to two or three colors works a lot better if we decide that "two of three" means "four or five". A lot of my issue is with these two principles. A lot of my favorite flags could not be drawn by a child from memory because they contain something that even an adult couldn't draw. And some of my favorite flags have more than three colors: Maryland, for example, and South Africa for another.
I'm not saying it means anything other than exactly what it says, because once again
they are guidelines. If you want to be pedantic about it (and I am always ready to be pedantic!), I can point out that white and black are not technically "colors." So therefore I can state that Maryland's flag meets Principle 3 perfectly by having only two actual colors.
Of course, if all you want to do is argue because
Someone Is Wrong On The Internet, it's easy to ignore the meaning of the word "guideline."
Or just take it from the NAVA webpage, directly below where they list the Five Principles:
QuoteOf course there are exceptions to every rule, but depart from these five principles only with caution and purpose.
SIWOTI reference: https://xkcd.com/386/ (https://xkcd.com/386/)
* * * * *
As for the original topic of this post, the flags with a blue field and a state seal... I think the reason most of us don't like them is actually in Principle 5, with their general lack of originality. The failure to adhere to Principles 1, 2, and 4 just make the violation of Principle 5 feel so much worse. If it were just Pennsylvania and Kansas with a blue field/state seal design, and not 19 other states doing the same thing (and historically many more than that), I don't think people would mind it nearly as much.
Quote from: fhmiii on January 19, 2024, 04:33:12 PM
Maryland's flag is a very good flag even though it would be difficult for a child to draw it accurately and is by no means "simple." It's distinctive, has a basic color set, uses no lettering or seals, and has meaningful symbolism (Maryland was a Catholic colony that was friendly to French immigrants and much of the flag's iconography is French and/or Catholic).
To me, Maryland's flag looks like it's made out of discarded horse jockey silks. Yes, I know there's iconography. But that doesn't make it pleasing to me.
Quote from: fhmiii on January 19, 2024, 02:32:36 PM
Vexillologically speaking, there are a few simple rules that separate "good" flags from mediocre or just bad. The North American Vexillological Association defines them this way:
QuoteThe Five Principles are:
- Keep It Simple. The flag should be so simple that a child can draw it from memory.
- Use Meaningful Symbolism. The flag's images, colors, or patterns should relate to what it symbolizes.
- Use 2 or 3 Basic Colors. Limit the number of colors on the flag to three which contrast well and come from the standard color set.
- No Lettering or Seals. Never use writing of any kind or an organization's seal.
- Be Distinctive or Be Related. Avoid duplicating other flags, but use similarities to show connections.
https://nava.org/good-flag-bad-flag (https://nava.org/good-flag-bad-flag)
Quote from: fhmiii on January 19, 2024, 05:17:13 PM
If you want to be pedantic about it (and I am always ready to be pedantic!), I can point out that white and black are not technically "colors." So therefore I can state that Maryland's flag meets Principle 3 perfectly by having only two actual colors.
Did you even read the booklet you quoted?
Regarding Principle #3, it specifically states: "The basic flag colors are red, blue, green,
black, yellow, and
white."
(By the way, it also calls Maryland's flag "memorable and distinctive". This is under the "All rules have exceptions" section. But that only makes me wonder. If one of the Union's best flags breaks more than one of the Five Principles, then why are so many people so adamant that the principles be adhered to?)
Quote from: fhmiii on January 19, 2024, 05:17:13 PM
Of course, if all you want to do is argue because Someone Is Wrong On The Internet, ...
If only this stayed on the internet.
I'm not opposed to redesigning bad flags. If we really do need to swap out seal-on-a-bedsheet flags in favor of more graphical ones—and I'm personally rather ambivalent about that need—then what I don't want is to swap them out for bland, predictable, unremarkable flags. I'd rather leave room for the quirky, the weird, and the garish. Unfortunately, I've found recent flag redesigns to tend in the bland direction. And I think part of the problem is holding up the Five Principles with religious zeal. Perhaps, as you say, I'm refusing to treat guidelines as guidelines, but apparently so are the people in charge of these things.
Yeah, I think the Vexillogical Society's guidelines are trying to make the subjective objective and they fail to do so, resulting in new flags that I find boring and too "crisp."
There's no accounting for taste and the Vexillogical Society needs to stop trying to hold it accountable.
Big fan of Maryland's flag and New York's seal-on-a-bedsheet, complete with EXCELSIOR on it. MN's new flag? Blech. Ambivalent towards Utah's new flag, which looks like it belongs on a hockey jersey.
And, if anyone disagrees with my opinions, then they are wrong and everyone is right.
Quote from: Rothman on January 19, 2024, 06:12:53 PM
And, if anyone disagrees with my opinions, then they are wrong and everyone is right.
only nine bucks (https://www.northstarflags.com/olive-garden-8in-x-12in.html)
Quote from: kphoger on January 19, 2024, 06:17:14 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 19, 2024, 06:12:53 PM
And, if anyone disagrees with my opinions, then they are wrong and everyone is right.
only nine bucks (https://www.northstarflags.com/olive-garden-8in-x-12in.html)
The flag of a scourge from which the world should be cleansed.
Quote from: kphoger on January 19, 2024, 06:17:14 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 19, 2024, 06:12:53 PM
And, if anyone disagrees with my opinions, then they are wrong and everyone is right.
only nine bucks (https://www.northstarflags.com/olive-garden-8in-x-12in.html)
If it's the Olive Garden's flag, why doesn't it have, you know, Olives on it instead of grapes?
Quote from: kkt on January 19, 2024, 08:05:33 PM
Quote from: kphoger on January 19, 2024, 06:17:14 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 19, 2024, 06:12:53 PM
And, if anyone disagrees with my opinions, then they are wrong and everyone is right.
only nine bucks (https://www.northstarflags.com/olive-garden-8in-x-12in.html)
If it's the Olive Garden's flag, why doesn't it have, you know, Olives on it instead of grapes?
What are the chances real olives are used at Olive Garden?
Oh, there's probably some. Olive oil is unmistakable, and not that expensive if you buy lower grades wholesale.
Quote from: kphoger on January 19, 2024, 04:56:14 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 19, 2024, 04:02:22 PM
Quote from: kphoger on January 19, 2024, 03:06:25 PM
Because the North American Vexillological Association is the ultimate authority on what makes a good flag?
Yes. Yes they are.
And why is that? Is flag design not something inherently artistic and subjective?
No, not really.
I mean, yes, there's artistry to it, as much as there's art to anything else. But when you are designing a thing for a practical purpose, then your art is necessarily curtailed by the purpose you're designing it for. A salt shaker would look a lot nicer without all the holes in the top, and it might be part of some artistic statement to make such a thing. But it'd be a pretty sucky salt shaker.
Even in fully-artistic endeavors, there are some general rules to design that are more or less inviolable. For example, elements of a design should generally either be centered or justified to one of the edges, as doing so communicates intentionality in the design; placing the elements partway between, say, left and center justification makes it feel like little thought was put into the design, so it comes off as amateurish, and such placement should normally be avoided as a result. (Violation of such basic design rules is normally the sin committed by Oklahoma DOT signs that we make fun of here.) There's also some degree of parallel between the "flag rules" and the MUTCD—there is a corpus of rules established for what makes a good sign, and most of the time, a sign that violates these rules will be ineffective and/or just look distractingly "incorrect".
However, in general design rules, the flag rules, and the MUTCD, there are rare instances where a designer has very intentionally violated the rules in a skillful way that actually makes the design
stronger. One could argue that the Welsh dragon and the Maryland flag are examples of this—they are both very complex designs, but in the case of the Maryland flag, this pays tribute to the state's founding history and is mostly a building-up of a large number of simple geometric designs, and in the Welsh case, it's a large, bold element that is unquestionably the main focus of the otherwise-simple flag. (Nobody would argue the Welsh flag was any good if the dragon appeared above the words "Balch o Fod Cymru" in four different font sizes with a copyright notice at the bottom.)
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 20, 2024, 07:57:34 PM
Even in fully-artistic endeavors, there are some general rules to design that are more or less inviolable. For example, elements of a design should generally either be centered or justified to one of the edges, as doing so communicates intentionality in the design; placing the elements partway between, say, left and center justification makes it feel like little thought was put into the design, so it comes off as amateurish, and such placement should normally be avoided as a result.
And yet "Good Flag, Bad Flag" hails the flag of Bangladesh, with its red circle "slightly offset to the hoist" as a design that "succeeds admirably". Apparently, the Flag Experts didn't get your memo about that inviolable rule.
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 20, 2024, 07:57:34 PM
But when you are designing a thing for a practical purpose, then your art is necessarily curtailed by the purpose you're designing it for.
I don't think we agree about what purpose state/city flags are designed for.
It's my opinion that a state flag's purpose
isn't to be easily distinguished on a battlefield, to let a person easily determine where he or she is by looking up at it, or anything like that. Originally, state flags were just—well, just a big rectangle to put the state shield on, because the state shield was what mattered.
It seems that purpose has shifted over time, to the point that state flags now represent the states "identity" to the wider nation. I'd argue that that's not necessarily true: Texas' flag certainly embodies its identity, as does New Mexico's, and likewise California's to a lesser degree, but I haven't been convinced that Maryland's flag—for all we've said about it—actually embodies that state's identity and declares it to the rest of the nation. Maybe I'm wrong, and it does.
Switching to city flags, if its purpose is to declare its identity to the wider world, then shouldn't that identity be able to come through in the flag's design? If, for example, people in Austin (TX) are encouraged to "Keep Austin Weird", then why are so many of its potential flag redesigns just boring rectangles of red and blue? I'm not sure what the Flag Experts' opinion of the Roswell (NM) city flag, but I suspect they wouldn't like it; I, on the other hand, think it represents Roswell nicely.
Quote from: Rothman on January 19, 2024, 08:26:12 PM
What are the chances real olives are used at Olive Garden?
What do you think those black things are in the salad? Moldy dates?
Quote from: kkt on January 19, 2024, 08:05:33 PM
If it's the Olive Garden's flag, why doesn't it have, you know, Olives on it instead of grapes?
I guess you must have been encouraged when they changed their logo in 2014, to include an olive branch instead.
Quote from: kphoger on January 23, 2024, 01:04:42 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 20, 2024, 07:57:34 PM
Even in fully-artistic endeavors, there are some general rules to design that are more or less inviolable. For example, elements of a design should generally either be centered or justified to one of the edges, as doing so communicates intentionality in the design; placing the elements partway between, say, left and center justification makes it feel like little thought was put into the design, so it comes off as amateurish, and such placement should normally be avoided as a result.
And yet "Good Flag, Bad Flag" hails the flag of Bangladesh, with its red circle "slightly offset to the hoist" as a design that "succeeds admirably". Apparently, the Flag Experts didn't get your memo about that inviolable rule.
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 20, 2024, 07:57:34 PM
But when you are designing a thing for a practical purpose, then your art is necessarily curtailed by the purpose you're designing it for.
I don't think we agree about what purpose state/city flags are designed for.
It's my opinion that a state flag's purpose isn't to be easily distinguished on a battlefield, to let a person easily determine where he or she is by looking up at it, or anything like that. Originally, state flags were just—well, just a big rectangle to put the state shield on, because the state shield was what mattered.
It seems that purpose has shifted over time, to the point that state flags now represent the states "identity" to the wider nation. I'd argue that that's not necessarily true: Texas' flag certainly embodies its identity, as does New Mexico's, and likewise California's to a lesser degree, but I haven't been convinced that Maryland's flag—for all we've said about it—actually embodies that state's identity and declares it to the rest of the nation. Maybe I'm wrong, and it does.
Switching to city flags, if its purpose is to declare its identity to the wider world, then shouldn't that identity be able to come through in the flag's design? If, for example, people in Austin (TX) are encouraged to "Keep Austin Weird", then why are so many of its potential flag redesigns just boring rectangles of red and blue? I'm not sure what the Flag Experts' opinion of the Roswell (NM) city flag, but I suspect they wouldn't like it; I, on the other hand, think it represents Roswell nicely.
Quote from: Rothman on January 19, 2024, 08:26:12 PM
What are the chances real olives are used at Olive Garden?
What do you think those black things are in the salad? Moldy dates?
Quote from: kkt on January 19, 2024, 08:05:33 PM
If it's the Olive Garden's flag, why doesn't it have, you know, Olives on it instead of grapes?
I guess you must have been encouraged when they changed their logo in 2014, to include an olive branch instead.
I got a time machine and all I used it for was a slightly improved logo for a mediocre restaurant? What was I thinking!
Quote from: kkt on January 23, 2024, 01:11:31 PM
I got a time machine and all I used it for was a slightly improved logo for a mediocre restaurant
Did you at least get
this lousy tee shirt (https://www.teepublic.com/t-shirt/2793845-when-youre-here-youre-here)?
Quote from: kphoger on January 23, 2024, 01:04:42 PM
It's my opinion that a state flag's purpose isn't to be easily distinguished on a battlefield, to let a person easily determine where he or she is by looking up at it, or anything like that. Originally, state flags were just—well, just a big rectangle to put the state shield on, because the state shield was what mattered.
At one time really it was meant to quickly identify location and to be easily identified on a battlefield, especially in the days when the vast majority of most armies weren't part of the nation's "standing army," but rather were made up of volunteer militia or the levy of the local lord. Ironically, during the American Civil War a "blue field with the state seal" would have been somewhat more unique than it eventually became.
Today, making flags unique is more about making it be identifiable in a crowded field of 50 (or potentially more) flags on a stage, during a parade, or at a monument.
QuoteSwitching to city flags, if its purpose is to declare its identity to the wider world, then shouldn't that identity be able to come through in the flag's design?
It should, but that identity won't always be easily identifiable to an outside observer.
Kansas City has the most operating public fountains of any city in the world. We call ourselves "the city of fountains," and so our flag has an impression of a fountain on it. Most people wouldn't understand that design without it being explained to them. They may just see a stylized heart (we're also supposedly the "heart[land] of America").
Each of the four stars on the Chicago flag represent important events in Chicago's history, but you'd probably have to grow up there (or just be interested, like me) to know what those mean, or to understand why they have six points each (hint: it's got nothing to do with a certain religion). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Chicago#/media/File:History_and_Meaning_of_The_Chicago_Flag.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Chicago#/media/File:History_and_Meaning_of_The_Chicago_Flag.png)
QuoteI'm not sure what the Flag Experts' opinion of the Roswell (NM) city flag, but I suspect they wouldn't like it; I, on the other hand, think it represents Roswell nicely.
I'd guess that they'd appreciate it for its (relative) simplicity and (relatively) limited color palette (even if it has 4 colors plus a white dot). The colors aren't used to create an overly detailed design, but are principally used in broad strokes or fields. Some might object to the rainbow-like bottom, but the overall design isn't too complex (might be difficult for a five year old, but no problem to a ten year old) and it's mountain/sunset motif is recognizably southwest US (and, thanks to the New Mexico flag, recognizably New Mexico). So, some might dock it a couple of points, but I think overall most vexillologists and vexillophiles you show would like it.
Quote from: kphoger on January 23, 2024, 02:19:58 PM
Quote from: kkt on January 23, 2024, 01:11:31 PM
I got a time machine and all I used it for was a slightly improved logo for a mediocre restaurant
Did you at least get this lousy tee shirt (https://www.teepublic.com/t-shirt/2793845-when-youre-here-youre-here)?
No, at least not in this timeline I didn't.
Quote from: fhmiii on January 23, 2024, 04:15:51 PM
At one time really it was meant to quickly identify location and to be easily identified on a battlefield, especially in the days when the vast majority of most armies weren't part of the nation's "standing army," but rather were made up of volunteer militia or the levy of the local lord.
At what point in US history were (1) states going to war with each other; (2) those states had adopted unique and easily identifiable state flags; and (3) armies were largely flying those unique and easily identifiable state flags in battle, rather than [a] non-standing-army militia flags, [
.b] individual battalion or other military unit flags, or [c] national flags such as the Confederate flag or the Stars & Bars?
Quote from: fhmiii on January 23, 2024, 04:15:51 PM
It should, but that identity won't always be easily identifiable to an outside observer.
Kansas City has the most operating public fountains of any city in the world. We call ourselves "the city of fountains," and so our flag has an impression of a fountain on it. Most people wouldn't understand that design without it being explained to them. They may just see a stylized heart (we're also supposedly the "heart[land] of America").
Each of the four stars on the Chicago flag represent important events in Chicago's history, but you'd probably have to grow up there (or just be interested, like me) to know what those mean, or to understand why they have six points each (hint: it's got nothing to do with a certain religion).
That's fine. My point was that imposing a short list of design standards inherently limits the "identity" or "branding" that a city/state flag can accomplish—whether that identity or branding is easily interpreted in the broader world or not. This is why so many of the recent redesigns all look quite a bit the same to me, and why I think that's a bad thing.
Quote from: fhmiii on January 23, 2024, 04:15:51 PM
... even if it has 4 colors plus a white dot
As I said earlier, it's a lot easier to accept the
rules guidelines if we rework them to mean something they don't say. Demanding that flags "use 2–3 basic colors" is a lot easier if we allow them to use 5 colors instead.
To say Maryland's flag doesn't embody its state spirit is ridiculous given how ubiquitous the flag is. As a former Maryland resident myself, the flag is certainly tied to the State's and its citizens' identities.
Quote from: Rothman on January 23, 2024, 05:27:42 PM
To say Maryland's flag doesn't embody its state spirit is ridiculous given how ubiquitous the flag is. As a former Maryland resident myself, the flag is certainly tied to the State's and its citizens' identities.
Thanks. I stand corrected.
Quote from: kphoger on January 23, 2024, 04:39:17 PM
or [c] national flags such as the Confederate flag or the Stars & Bars?
The Stars and Bars was not the "national flag" of the Confederacy. One version (the one most people see today) was the battle flag of the Army of the Tennessee (river). The other version (which is a 1:1 square instead of a 5:3 rectangle) was for the Army of Northern Virginia (Lee's army). Regardless of version, it flew beside regimental flags, which were frequently and usually an adaptation of the regiment's respective state flag.
Since the peacetime US Army was very small until World War II, most of the time even during conflict it was made up of State Militia (and later, National Guard) units. When regiments were not attached to a specific US Army formation, they would fly their state colors. They also carried state colors in earlier wars (e.g. War of 1812, Mexican-American War), during parades, official functions, during training, and at many other times.
QuoteAs I said earlier, it's a lot easier to accept the rules guidelines if we rework them to mean something they don't say. Demanding that flags "use 2–3 basic colors" is a lot easier if we allow them to use 5 colors instead.
Since we apparently differ on our definition of the word "guideline," here's a definition that matches the one in my head, from Oxford:
Quoteguide·line
/ˈɡīdˌlīn/
noun
plural noun: guidelines
a general rule, principle, or piece of advice.
If that's not your definition of guideline, then replace it with "rule of thumb," "recommendation," "suggestion," or whatever term allows for creative flexibility within an established framework. Do not confuse the word "guideline" with the words "law," "commandment," or "demand" in this instance. As myself and now at least three other people have stated in this thread, bending or outright violating the Principles
can work, and following all 5 of them to the detail is quite difficult. Most final products contain many compromises in their design to make them practical. Hence, most of what we consider "well-designed flags" will follow two or three of Principles very well but will compromise to some degree on the rest.
When someone decides to use more than 3 colors, it should be a conscious decision made with intent, and they should try to closely adhere to the rest of the Principles--unless there is a good reason to stray from another one. Following the Principles doesn't
guarantee a good flag, and straying from the Principles doesn't
guarantee a bad flag. Still, the more Principles that are followed when designing a flag, the more likely it will be a good one. Meanwhile the fewer Principles that are followed, the more likely it will end up as a garish mess or muddled blob.
In the case of the Roswell, NM flag, it follows four of the five Principles reasonably well, and its violation of the 2-3 colors Principle is done tastefully. It's not a bad flag. Minnesota's new flag violates the standard color set, but otherwise follows the Principles reasonably well. I kind of like it. Utah's new flag has 4 colors (including white), but largely follows the Five Principles. I don't really like it, but I also don't hate it. Kansas City's new flag follows all 5 Principles. It's not the best flag I think they could have come up with (I'd have designed a more simplified heart-fountain), but it's far and away better than the previous two versions.
Quote from: fhmiii on January 24, 2024, 09:37:09 AM
The Stars and Bars was not the "national flag" of the Confederacy. One version (the one most people see today) was the battle flag of the Army of the Tennessee (river). The other version (which is a 1:1 square instead of a 5:3 rectangle) was for the Army of Northern Virginia (Lee's army).
The flag you are describing was/is not the "stars and bars". The "stars and bars" was the first national flag of the CSA, consisting of three stripes, or bars, and a blue canton with a circle of stars representing various numbers of states. It looks a lot like the new flag of Georgia.
The later flag with the St. Andrew's cross covered in stars, is not the "stars and bars". Note that it doesn't have any bars on it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULBCuHIpNgU
TIIRC, that 'flag' was a battle banner that was only used by one unit in an obscure battle.
Mike
Quote from: fhmiii on January 24, 2024, 09:37:09 AM
When someone decides to use more than 3 colors, it should be a conscious decision made with intent, and they should try to closely adhere to the rest of the Principles--unless there is a good reason to stray from another one.
Nah.
Quote from: mgk920 on January 24, 2024, 11:14:43 AM
TIIRC, that 'flag' was a battle banner that was only used by one unit in an obscure battle.
Still a traitor flag.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on January 25, 2024, 11:25:23 AM
Quote from: mgk920 on January 24, 2024, 11:14:43 AM
TIIRC, that 'flag' was a battle banner that was only used by one unit in an obscure battle.
Still a traitor flag.
Still not the point. My point (if it were the flag I had referred to, which it isn't, because it isn't the Stars and Bars) was that it's a non-state flag that armies marched under.
Quote from: kphoger on January 25, 2024, 12:03:49 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on January 25, 2024, 11:25:23 AM
Quote from: mgk920 on January 24, 2024, 11:14:43 AM
TIIRC, that 'flag' was a battle banner that was only used by one unit in an obscure battle.
Still a traitor flag.
Still not the point. My point (if it were the flag I had referred to, which it isn't, because it isn't the Stars and Bars) was that it's a non-state flag that armies marched under.
Unfortunately, a lot of time, some flags that have good designs are symbolic for very bad things. I'm not advocating the use of them because of what they have come to represent but the Gadsden, "Stars and Bars", and the German Reich flags were quite distinctive yet simple. Just saying.