New Jersey Turnpike

[NJRoadfan]

It should be noted that the shoulders of the outer roadway between Exits 6 and 9 is noticeably smaller than the shoulders north of Exit 9. Its likely that they settled for 10 foot paved outer shoulders as opposed to 12 foot.

[vdeane]

To be honest, I've been waiting for Google Maps to update the satellite imagery and street view in the area because I had no clue how they'd be able to fit another lane in while maintaining the shoulder width without tearing the neighborhood down.

Valerie, during the previous 1985-90 widening contract, the right-of-way to accomodate those additional 3 southbound lanes (plus the shoulder) was more than likely already established.  It was just only paved for 2 lanes plus the shoulder until the current widening contract.  Such was done in anticipation for a then-future widening and to avoid any additional (& more costly) land takings.

As I stated previously, the pavement widening for that additional lane has already taken place.  It just needs to be restriped for such.

Long story short, the neighborhood's not be torn down.

Well, it certainly doesn't look it from the street view, but street view has been known to distort distance before (but usually to make something seem further away than it actually is, rather than closer).  It certainly looks like the two lanes plus shoulder abut directly against the sound wall and bridge supports in street view and on the satellite imagery.

[PHLBOS]

To be honest, I've been waiting for Google Maps to update the satellite imagery and street view in the area because I had no clue how they'd be able to fit another lane in while maintaining the shoulder width without tearing the neighborhood down.

Looking at pre-construction era GSV of the area you previously posted more closely; to the best of my knowledge, there is/was enough room to widen the pavement without relocating the sound walls (which are usually erected along the right-of-way limits).  The S. Main St. overpass was replaced with a wider structure since then and the short retaining wall and earth berm were, no doubt, either removed or moved closer to the sound wall.

[Alps]

Hey, I have an idea: the widening has already happened, so let's stop debating it. K?

[Pete from Boston]

GSV to see if they really are adopting MUTCD-standard signage

I look at this and think, my god, it could be frikkin' Iowa.  It's demeaning to reduce the Turnpike to just some... some... road. 

(Sorry, Iowans.  It could also be any other road in any state.)

[jeffandnicole]

To be honest, I've been waiting for Google Maps to update the satellite imagery and street view in the area because I had no clue how they'd be able to fit another lane in while maintaining the shoulder width without tearing the neighborhood down.

Looking at pre-construction era GSV of the area you previously posted more closely; to the best of my knowledge, there is/was enough room to widen the pavement without relocating the sound walls (which are usually erected along the right-of-way limits).  The S. Main St. overpass was replaced with a wider structure since then and the short retaining wall and earth berm were, no doubt, either removed or moved closer to the sound wall.

That former widening project between 8A & 9 was designed with 3 lanes in mind for the outer roadways, but they only went with 2 lanes because of expected traffic volumes (ha).  The Turnpike has stated when they widened the Turnpike from Exit 6 to 8A, traffic volumes between 6 and 7A only necessitated 5 lanes total in each direction (2/3/3/2) as well, but due to their experiences with 2 lanes between 8A to 9, they incorporated 3 lanes from the start.

Early on in the current widening project, they quickly widened the Turnpike NB from 8A to 9 to 3 lanes because there was no reason to keep it at 2 lanes in this stretch (and the width of this area is just like the SB side).  They didn't widen the SB side at the same time as it was already a pain going from 5 lanes to 3 below Exit 8A, and they didn't want to compound it by bringing 6 lanes down to 3 in this area.

[Steve D]

It should be noted that the shoulders of the outer roadway between Exits 6 and 9 is noticeably smaller than the shoulders north of Exit 9. Its likely that they settled for 10 foot paved outer shoulders as opposed to 12 foot.

Which shoulder?  The turnpike's standards are full 12 foot right shoulders and 10 foot left shoulders.  There would be no reason why to do different on the 6 to 9 widening.  I've driven in the new area and reviewed a bunch of pictures and I don't think the right shoulders are less than 12 feet.

[Steve D]

To be honest, I've been waiting for Google Maps to update the satellite imagery and street view in the area because I had no clue how they'd be able to fit another lane in while maintaining the shoulder width without tearing the neighborhood down.

Looking at pre-construction era GSV of the area you previously posted more closely; to the best of my knowledge, there is/was enough room to widen the pavement without relocating the sound walls (which are usually erected along the right-of-way limits).  The S. Main St. overpass was replaced with a wider structure since then and the short retaining wall and earth berm were, no doubt, either removed or moved closer to the sound wall.

That former widening project between 8A & 9 was designed with 3 lanes in mind for the outer roadways, but they only went with 2 lanes because of expected traffic volumes (ha).  The Turnpike has stated when they widened the Turnpike from Exit 6 to 8A, traffic volumes between 6 and 7A only necessitated 5 lanes total in each direction (2/3/3/2) as well, but due to their experiences with 2 lanes between 8A to 9, they incorporated 3 lanes from the start.

Early on in the current widening project, they quickly widened the Turnpike NB from 8A to 9 to 3 lanes because there was no reason to keep it at 2 lanes in this stretch (and the width of this area is just like the SB side).  They didn't widen the SB side at the same time as it was already a pain going from 5 lanes to 3 below Exit 8A, and they didn't want to compound it by bringing 6 lanes down to 3 in this area.

The 8a to 9 widening involved building two-lane outer roadways due to compromises made with residents of East Brunswick in the mid-80s (similar to those made here in Virginia in the 1980s to limit I-66 inside the Beltway to two lanes) so they could get the project started.  Another project to widen the western spur during that same time period to outer/inner roadways was killed due to opposition.

The infrastructure for the outer roadway between 8a and 9 was built for later expansion to three lanes.  This included overhead bridges, causeways, and right of way the whole length.  The only work needed in the future was to pave the new lane and move some guard rails.  I think they also did add some new sound walls 2011-2012, not sure if the one that started this thread was new or old.

[jeffandnicole]

It should be noted that the shoulders of the outer roadway between Exits 6 and 9 is noticeably smaller than the shoulders north of Exit 9. Its likely that they settled for 10 foot paved outer shoulders as opposed to 12 foot.

Which shoulder?  The turnpike's standards are full 12 foot right shoulders and 10 foot left shoulders.  There would be no reason why to do different on the 6 to 9 widening.  I've driven in the new area and reviewed a bunch of pictures and I don't think the right shoulders are less than 12 feet.

There are some areas where the left shoulder of the outer roadway is a bit narrow (3 - 5 feet wide), but that occurs north of Exit 8A as well.  In other areas, the left shoulder is a full width shoulder.  Previously, the Turnpike Authority would only install the left shoulder rumble strip a short distance prior to the median u-turns.  On the new section, the rumble strip appears to run the entire length.

As far as the right shoulder goes, there does appear to be some areas where the shoulder is less than 12' wide, but it never gets more narrow than about 10' or so.  When dealt with limited room, the left shoulder would be the one narrowed first.

[roadman65]

Does NJTA ever plan to sign Morristown or Somerville on the Exit 10 guides being those are the control points at other entrances to I-287?  They did add "Clinton" on Exit 14 after many years it was primary control point for I-78 at other places, NJTA took the plunge and made it completely uniform for all I-78 westbound ramp and pull through signs, or at least in the area as now Easton, PA is popping up in Somerset County especially on I-287.

Personally I like Metuchen, but in reality that could be moved to supplemental signs like for the Outerbridge Crossing and it be signed for either Somerville or Morristown and Perth Amboy.

[Steve D]

It should be noted that the shoulders of the outer roadway between Exits 6 and 9 is noticeably smaller than the shoulders north of Exit 9. Its likely that they settled for 10 foot paved outer shoulders as opposed to 12 foot.

Which shoulder?  The turnpike's standards are full 12 foot right shoulders and 10 foot left shoulders.  There would be no reason why to do different on the 6 to 9 widening.  I've driven in the new area and reviewed a bunch of pictures and I don't think the right shoulders are less than 12 feet.

There are some areas where the left shoulder of the outer roadway is a bit narrow (3 - 5 feet wide), but that occurs north of Exit 8A as well.  In other areas, the left shoulder is a full width shoulder.  Previously, the Turnpike Authority would only install the left shoulder rumble strip a short distance prior to the median u-turns.  On the new section, the rumble strip appears to run the entire length.

As far as the right shoulder goes, there does appear to be some areas where the shoulder is less than 12' wide, but it never gets more narrow than about 10' or so.  When dealt with limited room, the left shoulder would be the one narrowed first.

I'm aware of some very narrow left shoulders on old major structures (Passaic River, Hackensack River, Rancocas Creek bridges) but are there specific examples of where the right shoulder is small, especially in the 6 to 9 widening area?   Not to be anal but this is, afterall, the agency that lowered the entire turnpike roadway (eastern route) under the Pualski Skyway about 10 years ago for millions of dollars just to add the right shoulders for the 20 feet or so they had been lacking.

[PHLBOS]

That former widening project between 8A & 9 was designed with 3 lanes in mind for the outer roadways

Thank you, I figured as such.

[02 Park Ave]

So, will the southbound outer lanes be increased to three from Exit 9 down to Exit 8A eventually?

[mtantillo]

So, will the southbound outer lanes be increased to three from Exit 9 down to Exit 8A eventually?

Yes, once the "temporary merge" construction wraps up. Right now, it is safer for the right lane to end where it always has with permanent signs than to end abruptly at the temporary merge point north of 8A with temporary signing. Once the temporary merge point is obliterated and new guardrail installed, they will open everything up.

[jeffandnicole]

It should be noted that the shoulders of the outer roadway between Exits 6 and 9 is noticeably smaller than the shoulders north of Exit 9. Its likely that they settled for 10 foot paved outer shoulders as opposed to 12 foot.

Which shoulder?  The turnpike's standards are full 12 foot right shoulders and 10 foot left shoulders.  There would be no reason why to do different on the 6 to 9 widening.  I've driven in the new area and reviewed a bunch of pictures and I don't think the right shoulders are less than 12 feet.

There are some areas where the left shoulder of the outer roadway is a bit narrow (3 - 5 feet wide), but that occurs north of Exit 8A as well.  In other areas, the left shoulder is a full width shoulder.  Previously, the Turnpike Authority would only install the left shoulder rumble strip a short distance prior to the median u-turns.  On the new section, the rumble strip appears to run the entire length.

As far as the right shoulder goes, there does appear to be some areas where the shoulder is less than 12' wide, but it never gets more narrow than about 10' or so.  When dealt with limited room, the left shoulder would be the one narrowed first.

I'm aware of some very narrow left shoulders on old major structures (Passaic River, Hackensack River, Rancocas Creek bridges) but are there specific examples of where the right shoulder is small, especially in the 6 to 9 widening area?   Not to be anal but this is, afterall, the agency that lowered the entire turnpike roadway (eastern route) under the Pualski Skyway about 10 years ago for millions of dollars just to add the right shoulders for the 20 feet or so they had been lacking.

I know it gets a bit tight in the area between 6 & 7 for example, even though there's plenty of land in that area - must've been a slight issue with getting the extra land they needed at an agreeable price.  But, don't confuse tight with lacking shoulders - the shoulders are just a bit more narrow than what would be preferred.  You could still get a car, or even a truck, on the shoulder, but they better get it close to the concrete wall.  (Edited:  Actually, where I thought there was a concrete wall there was just a guardrail.  I was on the inner roadway today and couldn't get a perfect view of the area. I know somewhere around there, the shoulder becomes a bit more narrow.)

And that concrete wall: it's not jersey barriers, but rather a prefab outer wall that agencies seem to like to use when they use the 90 degree wall for a raised section of highway, rather than a sloped embankment.

[storm2k]

Does NJTA ever plan to sign Morristown or Somerville on the Exit 10 guides being those are the control points at other entrances to I-287?  They did add "Clinton" on Exit 14 after many years it was primary control point for I-78 at other places, NJTA took the plunge and made it completely uniform for all I-78 westbound ramp and pull through signs, or at least in the area as now Easton, PA is popping up in Somerset County especially on I-287.

Personally I like Metuchen, but in reality that could be moved to supplemental signs like for the Outerbridge Crossing and it be signed for either Somerville or Morristown and Perth Amboy.

Easton PA has been on the signage for Exit 21B since 1997 when those signs were erected.

NJTA does its own thing. I doubt you'll ever see the destinations on their signs changed.

[Alps]

So, will the southbound outer lanes be increased to three from Exit 9 down to Exit 8A eventually?

Very soon. They have to get rid of the construction near 8A to fix the temporary merge. I'll say that unless you're a daily user, it will be 3 lanes the next time you travel.

[02 Park Ave]

Will the third lane be open by Thanksgiving?

[Alps]

Will the third lane be open by Thanksgiving?

That is the next time most people travel it.

[J Route Z]

Does NJTA ever plan to sign Morristown or Somerville on the Exit 10 guides being those are the control points at other entrances to I-287?  They did add "Clinton" on Exit 14 after many years it was primary control point for I-78 at other places, NJTA took the plunge and made it completely uniform for all I-78 westbound ramp and pull through signs, or at least in the area as now Easton, PA is popping up in Somerset County especially on I-287.

Personally I like Metuchen, but in reality that could be moved to supplemental signs like for the Outerbridge Crossing and it be signed for either Somerville or Morristown and Perth Amboy.

It would be nice. If you list all of those locations, the sign would be 8 miles long. But hey, they have the "Exit XX For ___ Twp, Boro, Six Flags, etc" signs, such as Exit 10 for Edison Twp and Outerbridge Crossing, as well as the 1 and 2 mile advance signs, which list Metuchen and Perth Amboy. Somerville and Mahwah or Morristown would be great to include. I had no idea that Clinton was added later on at Exit 14. It does happen to look like a newer sign, as well.

[roadman65]

You could actually rename the exit "Exit 10 I-287 & NJ 440 Perth Amboy- Morristown" on all the main guides.  Then have one supplemental (the one that is there already ) remain "Edison Twp- Outerbridge Crossing" and add a second one that states "Raritan Center- Metuchen" somewhere in the mix.

To me I personally do not have a problem with the original 3 destination signs that NJ always used.  I am guessing the FHWA did which may be why the NJT is doing away with them as many exit guides did use them.  Exit 13's one mile had Elizabeth- Goethals Bridge- Verrazano Bridge, and the Exit 10 at exit had Perth Amboy- Metuchen- Edison Twp. as well as the 2 mile for Exit 8 being Hightstown- Freehold- East Windsor.   There was even Exit 8A with four destinations "Jamesburg- Cranbury- Monroe- S. Brunswick" on one of the advanced guides, but from what I have seen in OK Roads photos is that it is now gone.  Four destinations is pushing it as that is too much information. Three is just fine if it is done properly.

Easton, PA is correct.  The major sign overhall in 1997 changed all of that.  I-287 was the last freeway in NJ of the interstates to get exit numbers due to the Somerset Freeway.  If it had been built then all the numbers would be 4 less.  However, NJDOT did not want to number them before they planned to build the proposed Somerset Freeway because the exits for Durham Avenue, CR 501, NJ 27, and US 1 all would have not been in I-287's numbering scheme throwing all the motorists off as Exit 1 would have been CR 529 four miles prior to its signed terminus at the NJ Turnpike at that time.  NJDOT was holding off until they thought that they would build the Somerset Freeway where I-95 would have been the section of I-287 from Durham Avenue to the NJ Turnpike explaining the change in exit numbering.  However, in Morris County I-287 did get exit numbers, but that was most likely because it was far enough away from the zero point, that nobody even noticed a difference of four miles.

The fact is that Clinton was done prior to that, but it was widely used on most guide signs for I-78 Westbound then, so the NJT began to use it at Exit 14 because of it at the time.  I cannot remember if the "Cliinton" signs were added to Exit 14 before I moved to Florida or after I moved in 1990.  However, I know it was before 1997 for sure.

[AMLNet49]

The thing is, the Turnpike used to be like it's own separate world, with it's own signage, it's own restaurants, it's own taxes and it's own rules. The it wasn't just a "Roadway" as the new sign says, it was "The Turnpike", the ONLY road that mattered. Hell it's hard to think of one thing they didn't do differently, from the insanely long lane stripes, to the dual-dual setup, to the two spurs, to the signage, to the presidential service plazas, to the weird VMS/Speed boards, to the sequential exit numbering. There are plenty of other little details that made it like it's own world, and it always felt different driving on it, because as the sign said, you were driving the Turnpike, and that fact mattered above everything else. The funniest part may have been those signs posted when you exit the Turnpike, and there's a sign that says "You are leaving the NJTP system, obey local speed laws", as if the Turnpike had it's own set of laws that was above every other road. With the standardization of not only design of the signs, but the wording too, that factor is quickly disappearing

[roadman65]

Oh yes it is disappearing.  It is another piece of history going just like the Garden State Parkway abandoning the Number Only exit tabs for the new and current MUTCD tabs, as well as the removal of other things that gave the Parkway an identity of its own.

Anyway, sad, but at the same time some needed to be up to date anyway.  Like adding NJ 495 to the Exit 16E guide which is long overdue.  However, the Turnpike still could have incorporated these things in their own way.

I am sad and happy at the same time for all of this as the pros and the cons are equal for me.  I do miss the original 10 miles on the tenth mileage signs for New York going NB and for Trenton, Camden, and the Delaware Memorial Bridge going SB as that was a unique feature that other roads did not do.  Then you forgot to mention the overhead exit signs as another feature most other roads do not do as well along with their style arrows on the overhead guides.

[motorway]

On a semi-related note, I have often thought that the NJ Turnpike shouldn't necessarily post the same destinations northbound and southbound as they [mostly] do. For example, why post Camden as a destination for Exit 4 heading northbound when Exit 3 is much more convenient for Camden, especially since  Route 73 doesn't even come particularly close to entering Camden? (I'd go for Tacony Bridge instead like on 295) To a lesser extent, I also don't really see why Exit 10 heading south is signed for Perth Amboy when one can get off at Exit 11 for direct access to Pond Rd. (or a short distance to Route 440) into Perth Amboy. I remember in the old days (i.e., the glory days of my youth in the early to mid '90s) that the 1 mile advance sign for Exit 9 heading south was non-reflective and button copy that read "New Brunswick / Shore Resorts" (with the latter now on a separate supplemental advance sign along with Rutgers) rather than the usual "East Brunswick," although the "New / East" sign is there nowadays; it makes sense that they signed the Shore southbound only.

So, yeah, for the Exit 9-11 series, I would sign it as follows. Similar to roadman65, I am personally not averse to three-destination signage either.

Northbound
Exit 9: New Brunswick / East Brunswick / Somerville (once the Route 18 freeway is completed all the way to 287, at least)
Exit 10: Edison / Perth Amboy
Exit 11: Woodbridge / Paterson (with something about the NYS Thruway/Upstate NY on a supplemental guide sign)

Southbound
Exit 11: Woodbridge / Perth Amboy / Shore Points
Exit 10: Edison / Somerville
Exit 9: New Brunswick / East Brunswick

[AMLNet49]

Then you forgot to mention the overhead exit signs as another feature most other roads do not do as well along with their style arrows on the overhead guides.

I was including all aspects or guide signage under "unique signage". My main point was about the Turnpike being it's own little world, that was more of an attitude they showed, which was reflected in all of the oddities, including signage.