Arizona Looking to Dump Metric Signage on I-19

[Zonie]

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2014/10/04/arizona-highway-signs-in-metric-units-may-change/16724615/

Arizona highway signs in metric units may change
Associated Press 3 p.m. MST October 4, 2014

TUCSON – North of the U.S.-Mexico border, a relatively barren stretch of an Arizona highway is lined with road signs that tell drivers how many kilometers they are from their destination – not how many miles.

The markers from Nogales to Tucson are a relic of a failed Carter administration pilot program that aimed to convince Americans to adopt the system of measure in use across much of the rest of the world.

The roughly 60-mile stretch (or about 100 kilometers) is the only continuous highway in the U.S. with metric signs, and it's the subject of a long-simmering spat over whether they should be changed back to the standard system.

"When I'm driving, I definitely can't do that math," said Nick Rodriguez, a 24-year-old who lives in Rio Rico.

Some who agree with Rodriguez took a shot at changing the signs four years ago when the state, which oversees them, received $1.5 million in federal stimulus funding.

The Arizona Department of Transportation at the time said the signs were outdated and needed to be replaced with ones that are brighter and easier to read. "You get wear and tear on them. Obviously, they're out in the heat in Arizona. Eventually we're going to have to replace those signs," spokesman Dustin Krugel said.

They also said the new signs would be in miles.

The plan sparked vocal opposition that helped stall the replacement project. Area business owners said new signs in miles would change the exit numbers they advertise. The highway is measured in kilometers, so road markers and exit numbers would change, they said.

"It had a lot of opposition because people felt it was something that relates to tourism," Jim DiGiacomo, president of the Green Valley-Sahuarita Chamber of Commerce, said. "The hotels and businesses would have to change all of their info."

Mexico also uses the metric system and many in the area consider the signs a hospitality measure for Mexican tourists who visit Tucson and Phoenix. The Tucson Hispanic Chamber of Commerce said in August that Mexican nationals spend about $1 billion each year in shopping and tourism in Pima County.

The need to change approximately 400 signs still stands, but the state doesn't have the funds to replace them, Krugel said.

Next time around, however, the department plans on seeking public comment before deciding whether the new signs will still be in kilometers or miles.

"Ultimately we got a lot of feedback from the public that they didn't want the signs replaced. When we re-examine this issue in the future we're gonna get community feedback to find out what the people want through that corridor," Krugel said.

There likely will be a significant group that urges keeping things around I-19 just as they are. "Personally, I think it's neat that my guests ask me why (the signs) are in metric," said Jim Green, owner of The Inn at San Ignacio in Green Valley. "All of the tourists we're talking to, there's never been an instance where they were bothered because they weren't in miles."

Angel Fernandez, in his eclectic furniture and lighting fixture store, La Cucaracha de Tubac, agreed, using an old Spanish expression: "Si no apesta, no la muevas" or "If it doesn't stink, don't move it."

[Chris]

This was even in the news in the Netherlands today.

[triplemultiplex]

Boooooooooooooo!



This stupid country...

[Sonic99]

Could they possibly redo it using miles, but allow the exit numbers themselves to stay the same? Or do the exit numbers HAVE to follow what milepost they are at? Like all actual distance signs use miles, but the exit numbers stay whatever they are.

[Brandon]

Could they possibly redo it using miles, but allow the exit numbers themselves to stay the same? Or do the exit numbers HAVE to follow what milepost they are at? Like all actual distance signs use miles, but the exit numbers stay whatever they are.

Why not?  Delaware 1 has the same thing.  Mileposts along the road and exit numbers in French..er..Metric.

[Don'tKnowYet]

Why not?  Delaware 1 has the same thing.  Mileposts along the road and exit numbers in French..er..Metric.

Oh Lord.  Let's NOT use Delaware as the model agency for anything.  Sequential numbering on I-95, mixing metric (or worse, not removing it) on DE 1, and then integer mileposts using D10-1 signs on say DE 14 between the Maryland State line and Harrington.

[swbrotha100]

There are mile markers posted along I-19 already. They're just installed at a 90 degree angle, with the numbers facing the road. Between Ajo Way and I-10, everything is based on mileage except the exit numbers.

[US 41]

I think the posts and exit numbers should be in standard units just because that is what the United States uses. I don't see mile posts in Mexico on 15D, because Mexico uses the metric system.

Just to prove my point the signs in the US on I-19 aren't in Spanish. They are in English because that is what is spoken in the US. Same for Mexico. They're signs are in Spanish because Spanish is spoken there. An exception to this rule are signs relating directly to tourists. Ex - permit returns. Kilometer posts in the US aren't relating to tourists. They're from a failed metric conversion from years ago. Alto signs at customs is okay because the directly help foreign tourists. (Or stop signs o the Mexican side.)

[corco]

A couple thoughts:

1) While I have no doubt that over the entirety of the US-Mexico border, there are more US tourists going to Mexico than vice versa, and the general flow of dollars is going south, not north, that's absolutely not the case along the I-19 corridor. Tucson is a destination for the fairly large Mexican upper-class. Go to the mall on Saturday in Tucson and you can't find a parking space because the mall is full of Sonora (saw too many to count on any given day when I lived down there), Sinaloa (10ish a day), and even Jalisco (2-3 a day) plates, with wealthy Mexicans inside buying high end goods not easily attainable in Mexico to take back to Hermosillo, Culiacan, and even as far down as Guadalajara. The resort I worked at typically had about 20% of its occupied rooms at any given point occupied by rich Mexicans up to go shopping. It's a huge, huge part of Tucson's economy, and in the case of the I-19/Mexico 15D corridor, it's a place where the money is flowing north, not south by a wide margin. American tourists don't drive to Hermosillo generally- they go to Rocky Point, but not via I-19. There would be no reason to post English unit signs on Mexico 15D, because not many non-Spanish speaking Americans go down there. If local business owners feel that it's welcoming to the Mexican community to have signs in metric, that's something they absolutely want to encourage.

2) Old white people make up the other group of non-residents using I-19 .These folks head down to Tubac or Nogales for lunch, and they're looking for a "Mexico" experience without actually having to go to Mexico, where they are certain they will be immediately robbed and beheaded. Having signs in kilometers adds to that touristy experience, making them feel more like they're on an adventure, without having to risk doing anything they might find scary. The Green Valley and Nogales are heavily dependent on tourism and international trade. There's a little bit of agriculture down there, but tourists are where the easy money is. If local business owners feel that this helps draw tourists to the area, that's something that should absolutely be encouraged.

Now, I'm not sure if I buy the argument that road sign units make a difference in tourism, but this is one of those cases where I think it's fair to defer to local business owners. Tourism is a huge part of the economy down there, and if the leaders of that critical industry down there feel that having signs in metric gives them an advantage, then they absolutely should remain in place. The only compelling argument for changing them is that "we use miles" - but nobody has really demonstrated how not having the signage in miles actively hurts anybody. Obviously we have standards as a country for a reason, but in this case the metric signs are already there, so there's room to allow some leeway.

[jakeroot]

Obviously we have standards as a country for a reason, but in this case the metric signs are already there, so there's room to allow some leeway.

I believe the MUTCD allows metric measurements (believe it or not). But I'm not going to find the specific rule at 2 am.

EDIT: Oh wait, that's not what you were trying to say.    no more posting past 2 am, self.

[roadfro]

FWIW, I couldn't find any text in the MUTCD that says distance measurements have to be in English units (ft, mi) or can't be in metric units.

[J N Winkler]

The Associated Press article quoted in the OP does not contain any new information.  Arizona DOT announced its intention to change I-19 back to metric units in 2004, but all they actually did at the time was to push the start of metric signing down to the SR 86 (Ajo Way) exit as part of the I-10/I-19 trumpet-to-wye conversion.  Then, on March 16, 2012, they awarded a construction contract for a partial sign refurbishment on I-19 (H774101C), which touched only exit direction signs.

I really don't understand why this AP article was published since it doesn't contain any definite indication that ADOT has risen off the fence it sat on in 2012 by not touching any of the metric signs.  The article really needs something that would give an informed reader a clear and precise idea why this issue is surfacing again, such as a quote from an ADOT representative saying categorically that the agency is again planning to dump the metric signs.  What we have now is essentially a "Generalissimo Franco is still dead" piece.

For reference, a few of the past AARoads threads on this topic:

I-19:  should it be metric or not?

Metric Clearview signs on I-19

Arizona freeway guide signing in general (mostly I-40, some discussion of I-19 metric, surviving button copy/Series E Modified, etc.)

[adventurernumber1]

I think the posts and exit numbers should be in standard units just because that is what the United States uses. I don't see mile posts in Mexico on 15D, because Mexico uses the metric system.

Just to prove my point the signs in the US on I-19 aren't in Spanish. They are in English because that is what is spoken in the US. Same for Mexico. They're signs are in Spanish because Spanish is spoken there. An exception to this rule are signs relating directly to tourists. Ex - permit returns. Kilometer posts in the US aren't relating to tourists. They're from a failed metric conversion from years ago. Alto signs at customs is okay because the directly help foreign tourists. (Or stop signs o the Mexican side.)

I second this. Even after hearing what corco said, I believe it would just be for the best if I-19 switched. I personally prefer miles over the metric system by a landslide, not to mention it's what the US uses. And it is indeed possible that it may confuse people who are used to miles.

[jwolfer]

I like the metric system better. Makes more sense to my ADHD brain. But with that being said I still think in miles and Fahrenheit. 33 degrees does not sound hot. Medication  and science are pretty much all metric 5 the OTC dose for ibuprofen is 200 mg etc.  I think of boiling being 100 degrees. and beverages are very metric, we all buy 2L bottles of soda( coke or pop depending on region) or 750 ml of booze.  Speaking of coke illegal drugs are metric for the most part.

When I was in elementary school in the late 70s we learned metric. Because we were changing over in 1980. About the same time as Canada.

There are some metric nazis that want to forbid usage of expressions like "... a million miles away". Most British and Canadians think of things like height in feet and inches from what I have seen.

[US81]

I understand most science and engineering fields are mostly metric although there are some odd inconsistencies to be found.

Aviation uses Celsius temperatures although (in the US) calculates most other quantities in English (Av gas in gal, passenger/cargo wt in lbs, etc)

Healthcare is (usually) metric in body weight and medication dosing but uses English for pressures (mmHg), except for airway pressures (cmH2O). Temp is F in most settings but is C in most critical care units and some Emergency depts.

I'm sure there are other science-types on this forum who know of other instances of inconsistent usage.

[hm insulators]

I like the metric system better. Makes more sense to my ADHD brain. But with that being said I still think in miles and Fahrenheit. 33 degrees does not sound hot. Medication  and science are pretty much all metric 5 the OTC dose for ibuprofen is 200 mg etc.  I think of boiling being 100 degrees. and beverages are very metric, we all buy 2L bottles of soda( coke or pop depending on region) or 750 ml of booze.  Speaking of coke illegal drugs are metric for the most part.

When I was in elementary school in the late 70s we learned metric. Because we were changing over in 1980. About the same time as Canada.

There are some metric nazis that want to forbid usage of expressions like "... a million miles away". Most British and Canadians think of things like height in feet and inches from what I have seen.

I remember the aborted shift to metric; it was much ballyhooed in the mid-70s that the United States was going to go metric. I think that it went by the wayside for two reasons: 1. All the older voters were screaming that by God, they were happy with their inches and feet and miles and pints and that they weren't going on any newfangled metric system, and they kicked their feet and stomped up a storm, and 2. between the oil crises and double-digit inflation and the stench from Watergate, the country really had much more important things to worry about than whether or not we measured the distance from Los Angeles to San Francisco in miles or kilometers. There was a half-hearted effort, and then metric in the US went queep and died.

[Bickendan]

I think the posts and exit numbers should be in standard units just because that is what the United States uses. I don't see mile posts in Mexico on 15D, because Mexico uses the metric system.

Just to prove my point the signs in the US on I-19 aren't in Spanish. They are in English because that is what is spoken in the US. Same for Mexico. They're signs are in Spanish because Spanish is spoken there. An exception to this rule are signs relating directly to tourists. Ex - permit returns. Kilometer posts in the US aren't relating to tourists. They're from a failed metric conversion from years ago. Alto signs at customs is okay because the directly help foreign tourists. (Or stop signs o the Mexican side.)

Careful with that fallacy: The US does not have an official language. It just happens that the large majority of US residents speak English, which makes it seem as though English is the official language.

It reminds me of the joke of the guy who's standing in line at the store behind a woman speaking a foreign language on her cell phone. She ends the call, and the guy says,
"I didn't want to be rude, but really, if you want to speak Spanish, you should go back to Mexico."
She sizes him up, and replies, "Sir, I was speaking Navajo. If you want to speak English, you should go back to England."

[1995hoo]

I like the metric system better. Makes more sense to my ADHD brain. But with that being said I still think in miles and Fahrenheit. 33 degrees does not sound hot. Medication  and science are pretty much all metric 5 the OTC dose for ibuprofen is 200 mg etc.  I think of boiling being 100 degrees. and beverages are very metric, we all buy 2L bottles of soda( coke or pop depending on region) or 750 ml of booze.  Speaking of coke illegal drugs are metric for the most part.

When I was in elementary school in the late 70s we learned metric. Because we were changing over in 1980. About the same time as Canada.

There are some metric nazis that want to forbid usage of expressions like "... a million miles away". Most British and Canadians think of things like height in feet and inches from what I have seen.

I remember the aborted shift to metric; it was much ballyhooed in the mid-70s that the United States was going to go metric. I think that it went by the wayside for two reasons: 1. All the older voters were screaming that by God, they were happy with their inches and feet and miles and pints and that they weren't going on any newfangled metric system, and they kicked their feet and stomped up a storm, and 2. between the oil crises and double-digit inflation and the stench from Watergate, the country really had much more important things to worry about than whether or not we measured the distance from Los Angeles to San Francisco in miles or kilometers. There was a half-hearted effort, and then metric in the US went queep and died.

I have a feeling a lot of people out there who objected to it didn't seem to realize that there was nothing prohibiting you from continuing to use the old units in your day-to-day life if you so choose, except for out on the highway–and even there, what's so hard about a metric speed limit?

Consider how many cookbooks were (and are) written in the old units. It's ludicrous to think anyone would throw those away. Yes, the package you buy at the store would be in grams or kilograms instead of ounces or pounds, but so what? If the recipe calls for 8 ounces of something, you just use your existing kitchen scale to measure out 8 ounces of whatever it is. (If it's the typical American recipe that uses volume for dry ingredients instead of weight, you just scoop out two cups or whatever.) About the only time it would really matter at the store would be when you have to have an employee give you a certain amount of something, like today when I asked for a pound of sockeye at the seafood counter, but even then, I've been to quite a few grocery stores in Canada where the meat counter had a conversion chart posted for employees for when someone asks for a pound or whatever.

(Heh. My digital kitchen scale uses either ounces or grams. I often convert recipes to grams because it's more precise.)

[jwolfer]

I think the posts and exit numbers should be in standard units just because that is what the United States uses. I don't see mile posts in Mexico on 15D, because Mexico uses the metric system.

Just to prove my point the signs in the US on I-19 aren't in Spanish. They are in English because that is what is spoken in the US. Same for Mexico. They're signs are in Spanish because Spanish is spoken there. An exception to this rule are signs relating directly to tourists. Ex - permit returns. Kilometer posts in the US aren't relating to tourists. They're from a failed metric conversion from years ago. Alto signs at customs is okay because the directly help foreign tourists. (Or stop signs o the Mexican side.)

Careful with that fallacy: The US does not have an official language. It just happens that the large majority of US residents speak English, which makes it seem as though English is the official language.

It reminds me of the joke of the guy who's standing in line at the store behind a woman speaking a foreign language on her cell phone. She ends the call, and the guy says,
"I didn't want to be rude, but really, if you want to speak Spanish, you should go back to Mexico."
She sizes him up, and replies, "Sir, I was speaking Navajo. If you want to speak English, you should go back to England."

No we do not have a de jure official language. English is the de facto official language. Our laws, media, public discourse etc are all in English. Knowing English is vital to be fully engaged in the USA, just as Portuguese is vital in Brazil. If I were to emigrate to Brazil, I would learn Portuguese and not expect them to learn English.

There were various indigenous languages there before Portugal colonized . also there are large numbers of immigrants there, they learned Portuguese and their dependents are now native speakers. I am not sure if Portuguese is codified as official but it does not matter, the reality is Portuguese is the language of Brazil.

And just to clarify I am not one of those " speak 'merican" types. I speak write and read Spanish fluently. I think everyone should learn a second language at the very least, it broadens mind and outlook.

To bring this discussion back to the metric system. Metric is the official measurement system of the United States. And if I remember correctly it has been since 1837. Pounds, miles ounces etc  all of those are legally defined in metric values

[algorerhythms]

I think the posts and exit numbers should be in standard units just because that is what the United States uses. I don't see mile posts in Mexico on 15D, because Mexico uses the metric system.

Just to prove my point the signs in the US on I-19 aren't in Spanish. They are in English because that is what is spoken in the US. Same for Mexico. They're signs are in Spanish because Spanish is spoken there. An exception to this rule are signs relating directly to tourists. Ex - permit returns. Kilometer posts in the US aren't relating to tourists. They're from a failed metric conversion from years ago. Alto signs at customs is okay because the directly help foreign tourists. (Or stop signs o the Mexican side.)

Careful with that fallacy: The US does not have an official language. It just happens that the large majority of US residents speak English, which makes it seem as though English is the official language.

It reminds me of the joke of the guy who's standing in line at the store behind a woman speaking a foreign language on her cell phone. She ends the call, and the guy says,
"I didn't want to be rude, but really, if you want to speak Spanish, you should go back to Mexico."
She sizes him up, and replies, "Sir, I was speaking Navajo. If you want to speak English, you should go back to England."

No we do not have a de jure official language. English is the de facto official language. Our laws, media, public discourse etc are all in English. Knowing English is vital to be fully engaged in the USA, just as Portuguese is vital in Brazil. If I were to emigrate to Brazil, I would learn Portuguese and not expect them to learn English.

There were various indigenous languages there before Portugal colonized . also there are large numbers of immigrants there, they learned Portuguese and their dependents are now native speakers. I am not sure if Portuguese is codified as official but it does not matter, the reality is Portuguese is the language of Brazil.

And just to clarify I am not one of those " speak 'merican" types. I speak write and read Spanish fluently. I think everyone should learn a second language at the very least, it broadens mind and outlook.

To bring this discussion back to the metric system. Metric is the official measurement system of the United States. And if I remember correctly it has been since 1837. Pounds, miles ounces etc  all of those are legally defined in metric values

Interesting that you bring up Brazil and Portuguese. The lab I work in collaborates with a lab in Brazil, and I've visited Brazil a couple times over the past few years. I learned some Portuguese. I wouldn't call myself fluent, but apparently I've got a good enough accent that our collaborator told me I sound like a redneck rather than a foreigner to the Brazilians.

One of the things I hear from the "speak 'merican" types is complaints about accommodations made for foreign language speakers (e.g. "Press 1 for English", and signs in both languages). While I was in Brazil, I noticed that despite most of the people there being monolingual Portuguese speakers, it's very common for signage to be in English, Spanish, and Portuguese. In fact in the São Paulo airport, some of the signage was in English first, then Spanish, then Portuguese.

[corco]

I think the posts and exit numbers should be in standard units just because that is what the United States uses. I don't see mile posts in Mexico on 15D, because Mexico uses the metric system.

Just to prove my point the signs in the US on I-19 aren't in Spanish. They are in English because that is what is spoken in the US. Same for Mexico. They're signs are in Spanish because Spanish is spoken there. An exception to this rule are signs relating directly to tourists. Ex - permit returns. Kilometer posts in the US aren't relating to tourists. They're from a failed metric conversion from years ago. Alto signs at customs is okay because the directly help foreign tourists. (Or stop signs o the Mexican side.)

Careful with that fallacy: The US does not have an official language. It just happens that the large majority of US residents speak English, which makes it seem as though English is the official language.

It reminds me of the joke of the guy who's standing in line at the store behind a woman speaking a foreign language on her cell phone. She ends the call, and the guy says,
"I didn't want to be rude, but really, if you want to speak Spanish, you should go back to Mexico."
She sizes him up, and replies, "Sir, I was speaking Navajo. If you want to speak English, you should go back to England."

No we do not have a de jure official language. English is the de facto official language. Our laws, media, public discourse etc are all in English. Knowing English is vital to be fully engaged in the USA, just as Portuguese is vital in Brazil. If I were to emigrate to Brazil, I would learn Portuguese and not expect them to learn English.

There were various indigenous languages there before Portugal colonized . also there are large numbers of immigrants there, they learned Portuguese and their dependents are now native speakers. I am not sure if Portuguese is codified as official but it does not matter, the reality is Portuguese is the language of Brazil.

And just to clarify I am not one of those " speak 'merican" types. I speak write and read Spanish fluently. I think everyone should learn a second language at the very least, it broadens mind and outlook.

To bring this discussion back to the metric system. Metric is the official measurement system of the United States. And if I remember correctly it has been since 1837. Pounds, miles ounces etc  all of those are legally defined in metric values

Is English really the de jure official language in Southern Arizona? Tucson has been not part of the United States a lot longer than it has been part of the United States. I liken that area to pre-bill 101 Montreal. You can certainly get by just fine in English in Tucson, but you're going to miss an awful lot if you don't at least know a little Spanish. In large pockets of Tucson, business is mainly conducted in Spanish. Nogales, Arizona is definitely primarily Spanish speaking.

And I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

[jwolfer]

No it is de jure.. Miami is the same.. English is a second language in south Florida. Southern AZ is right on the border with Mexico and it was mexico until the 1850s

[jwolfer]

No it is de jure.. Miami is the same.. English is a second language in south Florida. Southern AZ is right on the border with Mexico and it was mexico until the 1850s

It is not de jure nor de facto in some parts. It has been part of the USA longer than Mexico. Mexico was not independent from Spain until 1848
Nothing is wrong with anyone speaking Spanish or conducting business in whatever language they desire. In any frontier there is mix of languages.

[J N Winkler]

By my count we now have 10 posts in a 22-post thread that deal with the merits of metric units and bilingualism in general, not on I-19 specifically.  Is Generalissimo Franco still dead?

[corco]

No it is de jure.. Miami is the same.. English is a second language in south Florida. Southern AZ is right on the border with Mexico and it was mexico until the 1850s

It is not de jure nor de facto in some parts. It has been part of the USA longer than Mexico. Mexico was not independent from Spain until 1848
Nothing is wrong with anyone speaking Spanish or conducting business in whatever language they desire. In any frontier there is mix of languages.

There has been a permanent Spanish population in Tucson since 1692 though. The US bought it in the Gadsden Purchase, but there weren't really English speakers there until after 1900, and not en masse until about 1950 when air conditioning became reasonable.