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Do you prefer driving automatics or manuals?

Started by US 41, February 11, 2019, 10:02:23 PM

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Automatic or Manual

Automatic
Manual

kevinb1994

Quote from: jakeroot on February 18, 2019, 05:40:19 PM
Quote from: Brandon on February 18, 2019, 05:03:50 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 18, 2019, 02:20:45 PM
^^
I'm not sure what exactly you mean by that, although I will say that I don't remember any markings indicating the gearbox layout in the Vanagon I drove.

Comment for the Beetle drivers: did you have to push down to go into reverse? The van was like this, as is my modern Golf.

When I drove a Beetle in Mexico (rental) it was push down, left and up to go to reverse.  It was the same as the manual transmission in our 1981 Dodge Aires.  The Caliber I had was down and to the right, no pushing or pulling anything.  The Renegade I have currently has a collar you pull up then go left and up for reverse.

I'm fairly certain that left-and-up is the "proper" European thing to do, although there are some exceptions (a few Audi's, Saab's, and a couple others). Your Renegade is Italian, so it gets the left-and-up treatment. The new Wrangler JL, oddly enough, switched to left-and-up from the JK's right-and-down, despite going from a Mercedes-sourced gearbox to a Japanese (Aisin) gearbox. So it's obviously not always true.

As far as entering reverse, BMW's have always struck me as odd. No lock-out feature requiring pushing or pulling. Just a strong pull to the left, or (what I used to do) going into 2nd, and then pushing left-up in a diagonal direction.

Must be a Bavarian tradition.


catch22

Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 16, 2019, 11:47:01 AM
Just remember, there were 3-speed automatic transmissions on production cars into the mid-90s.. How good or bad were they?

My wife had a 1986 Mercury Lynx station wagon, with the 1.9L engine and a three-speed auto.  I hated driving that car.  The gears were spaced really far apart.  Passing at highway speeds was an adventure.  If you nailed the gas hard, it downshifted into 2nd (like most autos) but that left the engine screaming near red-line (and with little increase in speed).  Stone slug of a car.

In contrast, her current car is a 2018 Ford Escape. 2.0L turbo, with a very smooth six-speed auto.  That thing is a rocket even though it weighs a good 800 pounds more than the Lynx.  Gets better mileage too.



 

yand

Quote from: MikieTimT on February 18, 2019, 10:29:41 AM
Quote from: yand on February 18, 2019, 10:00:17 AM
A 1-speed electric motor or a good cvt-like beats any multi-gear transmission any day.

While an electric motor is probably the best option for the future and certainly can be used in the most power-hungry heavy duty vehicles like they already are in locomotives and huge mining trucks, CVT transmissions are a stopgap measure at best.  When I see them in heavy duty vehicles, I may change my mind about them, but until then, I have longevity and towing capacity concerns about them.

Which is why I specify "cvt-like", as in something that achieves the effect of a CVT (engine rpm independent of wheel rpm), which in my book includes electric transmissions used in locomotives.
I make videos for Full Length Interstates. FullLengthInterstates.com redirects to my channel at youtube.com/FullLengthInterstates

hbelkins

Quote from: kevinb1994 on February 18, 2019, 03:35:07 PM
That's what she said.  :bigass:

This line is getting old, to the point of not being remotely funny anymore.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

abefroman329

Quote from: hbelkins on February 19, 2019, 11:33:44 AM
Quote from: kevinb1994 on February 18, 2019, 03:35:07 PM
That's what she said.  :bigass:

This line is getting old, to the point of not being remotely funny anymore.
That's what she said!  :bigass:

Takumi

Quote from: Rothman on July 15, 2021, 07:52:59 AM
Olive Garden must be stopped.  I must stop them.

Don't @ me. Seriously.

kphoger

My most nerve-racking experiences with roll-back were...

(1) Test-driving a Ford Focus with a stick-shift here in Wichita.  This being a test drive, it was literally the first time I had set foot in the car.  It was parked on a down-slope with a concrete-filled post directly in front of the bumper.  Other than an old Ranger from probably 1990, I'd never even driven a Ford with a stick to know how the clutch would be.  I managed to back out with no problem, but I could just picture myself rolling into the post with the dealer sitting in the passenger seat.

(2) Driving my mother-in-law's Ford Mustang across Branson.  The hills in Branson are no joke, and I found myself driving a car with a clutch that was almost completely shot.  I mean, you had to let your foot almost all the way off the pedal before the clutch would grab.  Then I ended up stopped at a red light on one of those Branson uphills and the driver behind me not leaving much room.  Again, though, I pulled it off without a hitch.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

jakeroot

Quote from: yand on February 19, 2019, 07:27:09 AM
Quote from: MikieTimT on February 18, 2019, 10:29:41 AM
Quote from: yand on February 18, 2019, 10:00:17 AM
A 1-speed electric motor or a good cvt-like beats any multi-gear transmission any day.

While an electric motor is probably the best option for the future and certainly can be used in the most power-hungry heavy duty vehicles like they already are in locomotives and huge mining trucks, CVT transmissions are a stopgap measure at best.  When I see them in heavy duty vehicles, I may change my mind about them, but until then, I have longevity and towing capacity concerns about them.

Which is why I specify "cvt-like", as in something that achieves the effect of a CVT (engine rpm independent of wheel rpm), which in my book includes electric transmissions used in locomotives.

I think it would only include electric (or hybrid) vehicles. Gas or diesel vehicles with CVT's are just atrociously loud and, well, not fun at all. It might net you an MPG or two better, but it definitely ain't worth it.

yand

Quote from: jakeroot on February 19, 2019, 11:16:44 PM
Quote from: yand on February 19, 2019, 07:27:09 AM
Quote from: MikieTimT on February 18, 2019, 10:29:41 AM
Quote from: yand on February 18, 2019, 10:00:17 AM
A 1-speed electric motor or a good cvt-like beats any multi-gear transmission any day.

While an electric motor is probably the best option for the future and certainly can be used in the most power-hungry heavy duty vehicles like they already are in locomotives and huge mining trucks, CVT transmissions are a stopgap measure at best.  When I see them in heavy duty vehicles, I may change my mind about them, but until then, I have longevity and towing capacity concerns about them.

Which is why I specify "cvt-like", as in something that achieves the effect of a CVT (engine rpm independent of wheel rpm), which in my book includes electric transmissions used in locomotives.

I think it would only include electric (or hybrid) vehicles. Gas or diesel vehicles with CVT's are just atrociously loud and, well, not fun at all. It might net you an MPG or two better, but it definitely ain't worth it.

If an engine is continuously operating at max power as a CVT allows, then it will naturally be louder than an engine cycling between power levels when going through gear shifts. Giving the driver more control over engine noise by forcing the engine to operate at lower (suboptimal) RPM is just a matter of software.
CVTs deliver more mpg, more power (speed and/or payload) and smoother acceleration. Economy, power and comfort matter a lot to transportation vehicles (most vehicles). "Fun" is somewhat subjective, some people think maximizing power and economy is fun. People who don't share these values can choose toys that do not prioritize efficiency  :sombrero:
I make videos for Full Length Interstates. FullLengthInterstates.com redirects to my channel at youtube.com/FullLengthInterstates

jakeroot

#134
Hey, don't get me wrong. I drive a small diesel hatchback with a 6-speed manual (better fuel economy choice at the time). According to Top Gear, I'm "tighter than two coats of paint" (I usually average around 42-45 mpg). I love getting great fuel economy numbers, saving money, etc. And there's plenty of torque from the diesel engine, and I can hold a gear for more power when necessary. Fun and efficient...two metrics we both agree on.

But, I cannot get behind CVT's. There is a fuel economy advantage, but at least for me, that doesn't overcome it's snowmobile-like noises, unimpressive 0-60 numbers, and difficulty towing (not least without overheating). There's also a reliability issue with CVT's that I'm not sure has been worked out.

Do keep in mind that there are other ways of achieving good fuel economy figures, such as advanced engine technology (turbo-diesel, hybrid, full-electric, etc).

yand

CVTs do have some issues, which is why in the quoted post I specify "cvt-like".
Examples of transmissions that have similar effects to CVTs without the downsides of belt-driven cvts include
"Non-direct" electric transmissions, which use the engine as a generator to power electric traction motors, and
"power split" or "electric variable" transmissions, eg. the planetary gearset transmission used in toyota hybrids

Of course, both electric transmissions and power-split transmissions can be implemented in hybrid vehicles. Turbochargers can be used to improve efficiency by allowing the use of a smaller engine. Diesel have the advantage of 1) better mpg/lower co2, and 2) biodiesel is better than ethanol. The best fuel economy is achieved by combining methods to improve fuel economy, including using cvts.

Cars equipped with CVTs typically have better 0-60 numbers than n-speed transmission variants using the same engine. re: the "snowmobile" noises, if you're referring to the droning engine noise that's just how an engine continuously operating at optimal power levels sounds like.
I make videos for Full Length Interstates. FullLengthInterstates.com redirects to my channel at youtube.com/FullLengthInterstates

PHLBOS

FWIW, I saw this on-line car and Driver article that might be worth a read for anyone interested in buying a new 2019 car but wants a manual.
Every Car You Can Still Buy with a Manual Transmission in 2019

The article shows 41 models.
GPS does NOT equal GOD

jakeroot

#137
Quote from: PHLBOS on February 20, 2019, 04:27:23 PM
FWIW, I saw this on-line car and Driver article that might be worth a read for anyone interested in buying a new 2019 car but wants a manual.
Every Car You Can Still Buy with a Manual Transmission in 2019

The article shows 41 models.

They forgot more than a few models:

* Subaru Crosstrek (hatchback)
* Mitsubishi Outlander Sport (raised hatchback, really the last SUV with a manual)
* Mazda3 (sedan/hatchback)
* Mazda6 (sedna)

The Kia Forte5 has not been updated for 2019 just yet, but it continues to be available for the 2018 model year with a 6-speed manual (which is available only in the upscale SX trim as $2k option). Given that the new Veloster and Soul (Hyundai/Kia) both have manual transmissions available, I don't see any reason that the 2019 Forte5 would drop its manual gearbox, especially since the 2019 sedan has one as standard.

There are several losses that I can think of:

* Fiat 500x and 500L
* RAM 2500/3500 (last HD truck with manual)
* Ford Focus (altogether)
* Chevy Cruze (plus its diesel variant!! NOOO!)
* Kia Rio (kill me now)




The Canadian manual transmission market continues to be a bit larger, with (among others) VW, Hyundai, and Kia all offering more manual transmission options across various trim levels, but there were a few losses for 2019 or 2018:

* Mk6 Subaru Outback is now auto-only (manual was still available in Canada)
* Mazda CX-5 lost its base-model 6-speed manual (as above, manual was still available in Canada with the introduction of the KF generation)

The Nissan Micra is the only Canada-exclusive car with a manual transmission that I can think of. The only other ones in recent memory were the Kia Rondo (Carens) and the Mazda5, both of which have been dropped in the last year or two.

PHLBOS

#138
Quote from: jakeroot on February 20, 2019, 04:59:57 PM* Ford Focus (altogether)
I guess you didn't check the The Ford truck company thread too carefully (Reply #233 in particular) prior to it morphing into a general CVT discussion.  Ford has dropped the Focus from the US retail market completely for 2019.
Disregard the above.
GPS does NOT equal GOD

formulanone

#139
Quote from: PHLBOS on February 21, 2019, 09:37:14 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 20, 2019, 04:59:57 PM* Ford Focus (altogether)
I guess you didn't check the The Ford truck company thread too carefully (Reply #233 in particular) prior to it morphing into a general CVT discussion.  Ford has dropped the Focus from the US retail market completely for 2019.

Plenty of new Foci and Fiestas still remaining.

Edit: it's one "i"

Takumi

They kept the Fiesta for 2019, but I think any leftover Focii are 2018s.
Quote from: Rothman on July 15, 2021, 07:52:59 AM
Olive Garden must be stopped.  I must stop them.

Don't @ me. Seriously.

PHLBOS

Quote from: Takumi on February 21, 2019, 11:19:44 AMThey kept the Fiesta for 2019, but I think any leftover Focii are 2018s.
Correct, plus the earlier-posted Car and Driver article was specifically referring to the 2019 models.
GPS does NOT equal GOD

jakeroot

#142
Quote from: PHLBOS on February 21, 2019, 09:37:14 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 20, 2019, 04:59:57 PM* Ford Focus (altogether)
I guess you didn't check the The Ford truck company thread too carefully (Reply #233 in particular) prior to it morphing into a general CVT discussion.  Ford has dropped the Focus from the US retail market completely for 2019.

What exactly did you think I meant when I said "altogether"? I mean the Focus is DOA, along with its 6-speed manual and excellent 1-litre ecoboost, for 2019. 2018 models are all that's left.

Hot Rod Hootenanny

Quote from: PHLBOS on February 20, 2019, 04:27:23 PM
FWIW, I saw this on-line car and Driver article that might be worth a read for anyone interested in buying a new 2019 car but wants a manual.
Every Car You Can Still Buy with a Manual Transmission in 2019

The article shows 41 models.

That same article showed up on my FB feed tonight. Team AAroads; who's feeding my road forum info to Zuckerburg?!  :poke: :popcorn:  :ninja: :hmm: :whip:
Please, don't sue Alex & Andy over what I wrote above

PHLBOS

Quote from: jakeroot on February 21, 2019, 07:25:29 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on February 21, 2019, 09:37:14 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 20, 2019, 04:59:57 PM* Ford Focus (altogether)
I guess you didn't check the The Ford truck company thread too carefully (Reply #233 in particular) prior to it morphing into a general CVT discussion.  Ford has dropped the Focus from the US retail market completely for 2019.
Disregard the above.

What exactly did you think I meant when I said "altogether"? I mean the Focus is DOA, along with its 6-speed manual and excellent 1-litre ecoboost, for 2019. 2018 models are all that's left.
Earlier quote has since been modified.  My bad & apologies.
GPS does NOT equal GOD

Zeffy

After driving a manual for almost a year now, I have no doubt I enjoy manuals far more. My car completely cheats because it rev matches downshifts for me, so I can downshift without a care in the world and it'll be smooth*. The CVT in my previous Civic was not bad by any means necessary, but as I figured, a manual is just far more fun.

Heavy traffic... it's annoying, but it gives your legs a good workout.
Life would be boring if we didn't take an offramp every once in a while

A weird combination of a weather geek, roadgeek, car enthusiast and furry mixed with many anxiety related disorders

jakeroot

Quote from: Zeffy on February 26, 2019, 06:19:27 PM
Heavy traffic... it's annoying, but it gives your legs a good workout.

I personally appreciate the advantages of manual shifting in traffic. Does it get tiring after a couple hours? I suppose, though I rarely sit in traffic that long (not if I can help it). Being able to lock into second and coast along, or slow down without having the brake lights come on, is pretty nice.

Zeffy

#147
Probably depends on how light your clutch is to determine how quickly it gets old when you're stuck in heavy traffic. My clutch is fairly light, but it does require some exertion to depress, and having to do it repeatedly starts to get to you after about 15 minutes. On the flip side, it's not too hard to get rolling just using the clutch so long as there isn't a hill.

Edit: Someone asked about Honda Civics having 6 speeds and the newest generation does (which is 2016 MY and up). This is what mine looks like in my car (2018 Type R):

Life would be boring if we didn't take an offramp every once in a while

A weird combination of a weather geek, roadgeek, car enthusiast and furry mixed with many anxiety related disorders

ClassicHasClass

So *you're* one of the Type Rs. I like the engine, but that wing is just too ugly to drive to work. So it's another Si for me. (I saw a Type R in downtown San Diego the other day with the license plate "SI LOL." Hey! I resemble that remark!  :pan: )

The Si has been six speed since 7th gen.

jakeroot

^^
My only issue with the Si is the body style. No hatchback availability, which is a walk-away moment personally. It's a hot hatch, not hot...sedan. Never mind the obvious practical benefits with the entire rear-end lifting up. Hence why I drive a Golf now. I can fit massive things in my car with the entire back-end opening up.

I'd be stuck with either the regular Civic hatchback, or the Type-R. Probably would go for the regular Civic hatch (with the 6-speed, of course), if only because I drive Lyft and would prefer to keep my passengers from getting sick. Well, and myself.



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