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NY 17/"I-86"

Started by newyorker478, October 27, 2011, 07:54:53 PM

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dzheng35

Quote from: amroad17 on February 27, 2023, 11:35:20 PM
Quote from: vdeane on February 26, 2023, 08:33:06 PM
^
Quote
Enhance interchange 67 on Route 17 to
achieve Interstate standards in the towns
of Vestal and Union, Broome County.
I thought the main reason NY 17 is not signed as I-86 through Vestal and Endwell, and to a larger extent between Waverly and Johnson City*, was the non-Interstate standard bridges over the Susquehanna east of Exit 68, over Vestal Road, over N. Main St., and over Choconut Creek.  I agree that Exit 67 could use some improvement, however, those bridges have very little room as far as shoulder width.

*-on GSV and on "Full Length Interstates'" videos, I see that I-86 is somewhat signed between Exit 70 and I-81.  I also see that I-86 is posted at Exit 67, even though it is not considered "official" at that point.

I mean, given how narrow the shoulders are, don't you think that they should replace it with bridges with standard shoulder width just for a safety thing in the event a truck carrying an oversized load crosses those bridges. Is it even possible for oversized load trucks to fit on those bridges. Besides those bridges are outdated and will probably be due for replacement sooner or later.

Also, what's the issue with exit 67 the cloverleaf interchange there.


vdeane

There is a bridge replacement project listed in the freight plan project wish list, but not as part of the I-86 upgrade.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

dzheng35

#702
Quote from: vdeane on March 02, 2023, 12:28:28 PM
There is a bridge replacement project listed in the freight plan project wish list, but not as part of the I-86 upgrade.

Not part of the I-86 upgrade, but the bridges do have a substandard shoulder width. Since it's not part of the upgrade, who knows whether the substandard bridges would actually keep that section from getting an interstate designation?

Take this bridge on I-86 over the Cohocton River a little west of Corning for example.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.1880088,-77.1575925,3a,75y,117.86h,77.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1h8KnIrmXgVzOyXJiKkq6g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1

Also, I'm not too familiar with interchange standards, so do you have any ideas about what the issue with exit 67 is?




vdeane

I'm afraid I'm not an engineer.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

roadman65

I see at NY 17K's western terminus I-86 shields are erected.
https://goo.gl/maps/8mZwXyk2wkrLzDqR8

From I-84 only Westbound is signed. Yet Wikipedia don't acknowledge it being a route east of Windsor, NY.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

dantheman

A question about interstate standards for the DOT crowd and others who know something about the topic...

I got thinking about I-86 in NY vs. I-476 in Pennsylvania. 476 was similarly re-signed as an interstate after decades as PA 9. It seems to me that a lot of the work that's being done to convert NY 17 to I-86 was never done on I-476. For one thing, 476 has no left shoulders, and the lanes feel like they're narrower than most interstates if I'm not crazy. I would also guess that at least some of the curves wouldn't pass muster for a brand-new interstate built today.

How did Pennsylvania get away with calling 476 an interstate, but New York is getting stuck with some pretty costly upgrades before putting interstate shields on the remaining pieces of I-86? I'm not suggesting that the interstate shields should go up while there are still at-grade intersections - that's a reasonable standard. But there are other things standing in the way (exit spacing, vertical curvature) that seem more minor. And the I-81/I-86 junction seems like it cost a fortune, just to get some curves to a wider radius.

Is Pennsylvania more willing to request waivers of interstate standards for things like this? Or have the standards really changed that much in the 20-ish years after PA 9 became I-476?

Rothman

Quote from: dantheman on April 11, 2023, 05:46:32 PM
A question about interstate standards for the DOT crowd and others who know something about the topic...

I got thinking about I-86 in NY vs. I-476 in Pennsylvania. 476 was similarly re-signed as an interstate after decades as PA 9. It seems to me that a lot of the work that's being done to convert NY 17 to I-86 was never done on I-476. For one thing, 476 has no left shoulders, and the lanes feel like they're narrower than most interstates if I'm not crazy. I would also guess that at least some of the curves wouldn't pass muster for a brand-new interstate built today.

How did Pennsylvania get away with calling 476 an interstate, but New York is getting stuck with some pretty costly upgrades before putting interstate shields on the remaining pieces of I-86? I'm not suggesting that the interstate shields should go up while there are still at-grade intersections - that's a reasonable standard. But there are other things standing in the way (exit spacing, vertical curvature) that seem more minor. And the I-81/I-86 junction seems like it cost a fortune, just to get some curves to a wider radius.

Is Pennsylvania more willing to request waivers of interstate standards for things like this? Or have the standards really changed that much in the 20-ish years after PA 9 became I-476?
FHWA got pickier over the 30 years since I-476 came to be.  That's the short of it.  Also, to this day, every division of FHWA enforces regulations differently.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

cl94

Quote from: roadman65 on April 05, 2023, 01:45:07 AM
I see at NY 17K's western terminus I-86 shields are erected.
https://goo.gl/maps/8mZwXyk2wkrLzDqR8

From I-84 only Westbound is signed. Yet Wikipedia don't acknowledge it being a route east of Windsor, NY.

Those shields have been there for a decade. In many cases, the covers fell off. Still not official yet.
Please note: All posts represent my personal opinions and do not represent those of my employer or any of its partner agencies.

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abqtraveler

Quote from: cl94 on April 13, 2023, 11:29:11 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on April 05, 2023, 01:45:07 AM
I see at NY 17K's western terminus I-86 shields are erected.
https://goo.gl/maps/8mZwXyk2wkrLzDqR8

From I-84 only Westbound is signed. Yet Wikipedia don't acknowledge it being a route east of Windsor, NY.

Those shields have been there for a decade. In many cases, the covers fell off. Still not official yet.
Because the FHWA and AASHTO have not yet approved the I-86 designation between I-84 and NY-17K (at least I can't find any record of that). The I-86 signs were installed and covered, pending that approval, but apparently the covers have fallen off at least some of the signs on that stretch.
2-d Interstates traveled:  4, 5, 8, 10, 15, 20, 24, 25, 27, 29, 35, 39, 40, 41, 43, 45, 49, 55, 57, 64, 65, 66, 69, 70, 71, 72, 74, 75, 76(E), 77, 78, 81, 83, 84(W), 85, 87(N), 89, 90, 91, 93, 94, 95

2-d Interstates Clinched:  12, 22, 30, 37, 44, 59, 80, 84(E), 86(E), 238, H1, H2, H3, H201

dantheman

Quote from: Rothman on April 11, 2023, 05:49:34 PM
FHWA got pickier over the 30 years since I-476 came to be.  That's the short of it.  Also, to this day, every division of FHWA enforces regulations differently.
Thanks. I didn't realize that there was that much regional variation... that does explain a lot.

roadman65

Quote from: cl94 on April 13, 2023, 11:29:11 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on April 05, 2023, 01:45:07 AM
I see at NY 17K's western terminus I-86 shields are erected.
https://goo.gl/maps/8mZwXyk2wkrLzDqR8

From I-84 only Westbound is signed. Yet Wikipedia don't acknowledge it being a route east of Windsor, NY.

Those shields have been there for a decade. In many cases, the covers fell off. Still not official yet.

Then why also is the future overlap with I-81 not signed as if I-81 already an interstate?
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

Rothman



Quote from: roadman65 on April 16, 2023, 01:39:28 PM
Quote from: cl94 on April 13, 2023, 11:29:11 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on April 05, 2023, 01:45:07 AM
I see at NY 17K's western terminus I-86 shields are erected.
https://goo.gl/maps/8mZwXyk2wkrLzDqR8

From I-84 only Westbound is signed. Yet Wikipedia don't acknowledge it being a route east of Windsor, NY.

Those shields have been there for a decade. In many cases, the covers fell off. Still not official yet.

Then why also is the future overlap with I-81 not signed as if I-81 already an interstate?

Wut?  Last I checked, it was:

I-81
https://maps.app.goo.gl/noVLve6Du53BrrFG9
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

dzheng35

After wondering for so many years why the segment in Orange County between I-84 and NY 17K with the covered I-86 shields is still covered and not officially signed yet, here's why. This was from the draft PEL report during the PEL study, and someone brought this up. The explanation is vague but it mentioned something. Go to page 947 and zoom in.
https://www.dot.ny.gov/portal/page/portal/content/delivery/region8/projects/806509-Home/806509-Repository/8065.09_PEL%20Report%20Draft_Attachment%205_Public%20Involvement%20Documents_Sept2021.pdf

It mentioned that it's still not interstate standards unfortunately despite the reconstruction and upgrade years ago.

Rothman

Quote from: dzheng35 on April 21, 2023, 03:40:58 AM
After wondering for so many years why the segment in Orange County between I-84 and NY 17K with the covered I-86 shields is still covered and not officially signed yet, here's why. This was from the draft PEL report during the PEL study, and someone brought this up. The explanation is vague but it mentioned something. Go to page 947 and zoom in.
https://www.dot.ny.gov/portal/page/portal/content/delivery/region8/projects/806509-Home/806509-Repository/8065.09_PEL%20Report%20Draft_Attachment%205_Public%20Involvement%20Documents_Sept2021.pdf

It mentioned that it's still not interstate standards unfortunately despite the reconstruction and upgrade years ago.
For so many years?  All you had to do was read this thread. :D
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

abqtraveler

Quote from: Rothman on April 21, 2023, 06:55:58 AM
Quote from: dzheng35 on April 21, 2023, 03:40:58 AM
After wondering for so many years why the segment in Orange County between I-84 and NY 17K with the covered I-86 shields is still covered and not officially signed yet, here's why. This was from the draft PEL report during the PEL study, and someone brought this up. The explanation is vague but it mentioned something. Go to page 947 and zoom in.
https://www.dot.ny.gov/portal/page/portal/content/delivery/region8/projects/806509-Home/806509-Repository/8065.09_PEL%20Report%20Draft_Attachment%205_Public%20Involvement%20Documents_Sept2021.pdf

It mentioned that it's still not interstate standards unfortunately despite the reconstruction and upgrade years ago.
For so many years?  All you had to do was read this thread. :D
It's ridiculous that they spent (wasted) all that money on reconstructing NY-17 around the I-84 interchange, yet they failed to bring that stretch up to interstate standards. SMH.
2-d Interstates traveled:  4, 5, 8, 10, 15, 20, 24, 25, 27, 29, 35, 39, 40, 41, 43, 45, 49, 55, 57, 64, 65, 66, 69, 70, 71, 72, 74, 75, 76(E), 77, 78, 81, 83, 84(W), 85, 87(N), 89, 90, 91, 93, 94, 95

2-d Interstates Clinched:  12, 22, 30, 37, 44, 59, 80, 84(E), 86(E), 238, H1, H2, H3, H201

Rothman

Quote from: abqtraveler on April 21, 2023, 09:06:55 AM
Quote from: Rothman on April 21, 2023, 06:55:58 AM
Quote from: dzheng35 on April 21, 2023, 03:40:58 AM
After wondering for so many years why the segment in Orange County between I-84 and NY 17K with the covered I-86 shields is still covered and not officially signed yet, here's why. This was from the draft PEL report during the PEL study, and someone brought this up. The explanation is vague but it mentioned something. Go to page 947 and zoom in.
https://www.dot.ny.gov/portal/page/portal/content/delivery/region8/projects/806509-Home/806509-Repository/8065.09_PEL%20Report%20Draft_Attachment%205_Public%20Involvement%20Documents_Sept2021.pdf

It mentioned that it's still not interstate standards unfortunately despite the reconstruction and upgrade years ago.
For so many years?  All you had to do was read this thread. :D
It's ridiculous that they spent (wasted) all that money on reconstructing NY-17 around the I-84 interchange, yet they failed to bring that stretch up to interstate standards. SMH.
I believe there was a mentality for a few years that converting to full Interstate standards was a waste of funding, so the idea of "make it look Interstate-ish" was followed -- limited and necessary mobility improvements, but not going whole hog in pursuing the conversion.

(personal opinion emphasized)
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

abqtraveler

Quote from: Rothman on April 21, 2023, 09:32:24 AM
Quote from: abqtraveler on April 21, 2023, 09:06:55 AM
Quote from: Rothman on April 21, 2023, 06:55:58 AM
Quote from: dzheng35 on April 21, 2023, 03:40:58 AM
After wondering for so many years why the segment in Orange County between I-84 and NY 17K with the covered I-86 shields is still covered and not officially signed yet, here's why. This was from the draft PEL report during the PEL study, and someone brought this up. The explanation is vague but it mentioned something. Go to page 947 and zoom in.
https://www.dot.ny.gov/portal/page/portal/content/delivery/region8/projects/806509-Home/806509-Repository/8065.09_PEL%20Report%20Draft_Attachment%205_Public%20Involvement%20Documents_Sept2021.pdf

It mentioned that it's still not interstate standards unfortunately despite the reconstruction and upgrade years ago.
For so many years?  All you had to do was read this thread. :D
It's ridiculous that they spent (wasted) all that money on reconstructing NY-17 around the I-84 interchange, yet they failed to bring that stretch up to interstate standards. SMH.
I believe there was a mentality for a few years that converting to full Interstate standards was a waste of funding, so the idea of "make it look Interstate-ish" was followed -- limited and necessary mobility improvements, but not going whole hog in pursuing the conversion.

(personal opinion emphasized)
In that case it looks like NYSDOT made "modest" spot improvements in the vicinity of I-84, assuming the FHWA would simply grant a waiver for any remaining design deficiencies along that stretch. NYSDOT clearly failed to take into account that, in recent years, the FHWA has been very stingy in granting "design exceptions" that would allow a highway with some substandard elements to receive an interstate designation. In other words, the FHWA is requiring a highway to fully meet interstate design standards, with extremely limited exceptions, before they will allow it to be signed as an interstate.
2-d Interstates traveled:  4, 5, 8, 10, 15, 20, 24, 25, 27, 29, 35, 39, 40, 41, 43, 45, 49, 55, 57, 64, 65, 66, 69, 70, 71, 72, 74, 75, 76(E), 77, 78, 81, 83, 84(W), 85, 87(N), 89, 90, 91, 93, 94, 95

2-d Interstates Clinched:  12, 22, 30, 37, 44, 59, 80, 84(E), 86(E), 238, H1, H2, H3, H201

Rothman

#717
Quote from: abqtraveler on April 21, 2023, 10:17:05 AM
Quote from: Rothman on April 21, 2023, 09:32:24 AM
Quote from: abqtraveler on April 21, 2023, 09:06:55 AM
Quote from: Rothman on April 21, 2023, 06:55:58 AM
Quote from: dzheng35 on April 21, 2023, 03:40:58 AM
After wondering for so many years why the segment in Orange County between I-84 and NY 17K with the covered I-86 shields is still covered and not officially signed yet, here's why. This was from the draft PEL report during the PEL study, and someone brought this up. The explanation is vague but it mentioned something. Go to page 947 and zoom in.
https://www.dot.ny.gov/portal/page/portal/content/delivery/region8/projects/806509-Home/806509-Repository/8065.09_PEL%20Report%20Draft_Attachment%205_Public%20Involvement%20Documents_Sept2021.pdf

It mentioned that it's still not interstate standards unfortunately despite the reconstruction and upgrade years ago.
For so many years?  All you had to do was read this thread. :D
It's ridiculous that they spent (wasted) all that money on reconstructing NY-17 around the I-84 interchange, yet they failed to bring that stretch up to interstate standards. SMH.
I believe there was a mentality for a few years that converting to full Interstate standards was a waste of funding, so the idea of "make it look Interstate-ish" was followed -- limited and necessary mobility improvements, but not going whole hog in pursuing the conversion.

(personal opinion emphasized)
In that case it looks like NYSDOT made "modest" spot improvements in the vicinity of I-84, assuming the FHWA would simply grant a waiver for any remaining design deficiencies along that stretch. NYSDOT clearly failed to take into account that, in recent years, the FHWA has been very stingy in granting "design exceptions" that would allow a highway with some substandard elements to receive an interstate designation. In other words, the FHWA is requiring a highway to fully meet interstate design standards, with extremely limited exceptions, before they will allow it to be signed as an interstate.
Nah.  NYSDOT has known FHWA demands for the conversion.  My point was that I believe not meeting those demands in the case of I-84/NY 17 was a deliberate money-saving decision by NYSDOT at the time.

FHWA is picky about non-standard justifications -- just that item has held up many-a-project as FHWA has insisted on justifications being tweaked to their desire.

Therefore, this would not be NYSDOT justifying non-standard features in hopes of FHWA just approving the conversion, but rather just to keep the interchange as-is with the spot improvements.

(personal opinion emphasized)
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Rothman

If consultants are to be believed, design for Hale Eddy to Hancock is progressing.  Had a meeting with the prime consultant today.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

dzheng35

Quote from: Rothman on July 26, 2023, 04:10:26 PM
If consultants are to be believed, design for Hale Eddy to Hancock is progressing.  Had a meeting with the prime consultant today.

Any rough ideas of what they plan on doing with hale eddy in terms of right of way or interchanges, including where the interchange will be and the type of interchange that will be built? All I recall is the STIP website stating that it would be a diamond interchange.

The Ghostbuster

When upgrades finally do come to Hale Eddy, will they be on-alignment upgrades, or could a northern bypass of the existing alignment be constructed?

Rothman

Quote from: dzheng35 on July 26, 2023, 05:53:25 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 26, 2023, 04:10:26 PM
If consultants are to be believed, design for Hale Eddy to Hancock is progressing.  Had a meeting with the prime consultant today.

Any rough ideas of what they plan on doing with hale eddy in terms of right of way or interchanges, including where the interchange will be and the type of interchange that will be built? All I recall is the STIP website stating that it would be a diamond interchange.
My meeting with them wasn't specifically on Hale Eddy.  They mentioned it tangentially to our main topic. However, they did say there were two main interchanges they were working on for the stretch.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

cockroachking

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 26, 2023, 07:22:59 PM
When upgrades finally do come to Hale Eddy, will they be on-alignment upgrades, or could a northern bypass of the existing alignment be constructed?
Due to the topography of the area, it is probably cheaper to buy out all of the properties along the existing ROW and upgrade the substandard geometry, rather than blast a new alignment through the mountains like in Parksville. The renderings from 10+ years ago seemed to concur with this sentiment, though things can change over such a time period.

seicer

There are fewer active properties along the highway than 15 or so years ago.

abqtraveler

Quote from: seicer on July 26, 2023, 10:19:08 PM
There are fewer active properties along the highway than 15 or so years ago.
Thanks to the population shifting from the rural to the urban areas. Seems like everyone wants to live in or very near a big city nowadays.
2-d Interstates traveled:  4, 5, 8, 10, 15, 20, 24, 25, 27, 29, 35, 39, 40, 41, 43, 45, 49, 55, 57, 64, 65, 66, 69, 70, 71, 72, 74, 75, 76(E), 77, 78, 81, 83, 84(W), 85, 87(N), 89, 90, 91, 93, 94, 95

2-d Interstates Clinched:  12, 22, 30, 37, 44, 59, 80, 84(E), 86(E), 238, H1, H2, H3, H201



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