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Interstate 81 in Syracuse

Started by The Ghostbuster, May 25, 2016, 03:37:19 PM

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abqtraveler

At its Spring Meeting, AASHTO approved re-designating I-81 through Syracuse as Business Loop 81, and rerouting I-81 along the eastern leg of I-481. Given that, NYSDOT will eventually have to renumber exits along the eastern leg of I-481 after the signing change to I-81 takes place, and for I-81 north of there as well. So the million dollar question:  Given that exits on such a large portion of I-81 will have to be renumbered, will NYSDOT be required to convert exit numbers along the full length of I-81 to mile-based? I would suspect the FHWA might make NYSDOT do so, using the logic, "While we're at it...let's renumber all of the I-81 exits to mile-based."
2-d Interstates traveled:  4, 5, 8, 10, 15, 20, 24, 25, 27, 29, 35, 39, 40, 41, 43, 45, 49, 55, 57, 64, 65, 66, 69, 70, 71, 72, 74, 75, 76(E), 77, 78, 81, 83, 84(W), 85, 87(N), 89, 90, 91, 93, 94, 95

2-d Interstates Clinched:  12, 22, 30, 37, 44, 59, 80, 84(E), 86(E), 238, H1, H2, H3, H201


webny99

Quote from: Rothman on August 23, 2021, 12:47:50 PM
You have to look at the system as a whole.  That reveals why I-81 at I-90 is not as significant as you'd think.  You have I-390, I-86/NY 17, I-88, I-690 and I-481 all detracting from its significance.

I'm referring to the south to west movement in general, which would include both I-81/I-690 AND I-81/I-90. So as far as those routes go in reducing the significance of this movement:

I-88 and I-481 are both alternates between south and east, depending on your start/endpoints. So that would reduce its importance for south/east, but not south/west. I-481 is also viable for north/south through traffic (despite adding a few minutes travel time), but again, not south/west.

I-690 doesn't do anything to reduce the significance of this movement. If anything, it only adds insult to injury by providing two viable routes from Van Buren to downtown Syracuse (I-690 and I-90>I-81), only to cut both of them off at the knees with the grid.

As for I-86/NY 17/I-390, this seems to be a recurring theme here. It's not as good a route between upstate and downstate NY as I-90 to I-81. It's around 10-15 minutes longer from Rochester, and slightly more comparable from the Buffalo/Niagara region, but with some two-lane mileage. And in particular, it's an unsuitable alternate for truck traffic, as trucks are banned from US 20A. So most if not all trucks currently use, and will continue to use, I-81 (to I-690) to I-90. You could argue that this slightly reduces the significance of I-81/I-90 on the fringes, but not in any substantial way, and certainly not in the same way that I-88 does for Binghamton-Albany.

Also, Syracuse is a logistics hub for much of upstate NY because of its central location. A lot of LTL freight from the Rochester area goes to Syracuse, for example. I'm sure it's the same with much of the Finger Lakes region and Binghamton/Watertown. And FedEx has a hub in Syracuse right near the Thruway.

Rothman

#1052
So...where are you taking this, then?  Sounds like there will still be a time savings taking I-690 to I-481 over I-390 to I-86, then.

And, with the logistics centers being out near I-690/I-90 and at Carrier Circle, it still doesn't seem likely the movements to and from the south are as you describe.  Coming from the south, trucks would take I-81 to I-481 to I-90 to get to Carrier Circle (and the upcoming center at Kirkville Road, come to think of it), or I-81 to I-690 to get to the centers at I-690/I-90.  Not seeing why trucks getting to those areas would go through I-81/I-90.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

kalvado

Quote from: Rothman on August 23, 2021, 01:45:28 PM
So...where are you taking this, then?  Sounds like there will still be a time savings taking I-690 to I-481 over I-390 to I-86, then.
Extra 8 miles in a loop... i can see how people are unhappy about that. Not a deal breaker for the single trip, but someone going daily may feel different.

seicer

Quote from: sprjus4 on August 23, 2021, 12:43:20 PM
Quote from: seicer on August 23, 2021, 12:18:28 PM
Also not sure where you are getting your numbers.

I can't find anything from NYSDOT that pings I-81 at 70,000 AADT or I-481 at 50,000 AADT.
I-81 near Downtown (the part being demolished for a wasteful grid) is 68,999 AADT, I-481 is 46,351 AADT, roughly around the figures I mentioned.

NYSDOT disagrees with your 68,999 AADT numbers for I-81. I'm still not sure where you are getting your figures.

sprjus4

Quote from: Rothman on August 23, 2021, 01:45:28 PM
So...where are you taking this, then?  Sounds like there will still be a time savings taking I-690 to I-481 over I-390 to I-86, then.
Currently a 4 minute, 4 mile trip up I-81. Simple enough.

Now make it 12 minutes, 12 miles. That's what it takes via I-481 and I-690. So look again.

Then factor increased traffic and congestion during peak hours into that figure.

Quote from: seicer on August 23, 2021, 01:51:11 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on August 23, 2021, 12:43:20 PM
Quote from: seicer on August 23, 2021, 12:18:28 PM
Also not sure where you are getting your numbers.

I can't find anything from NYSDOT that pings I-81 at 70,000 AADT or I-481 at 50,000 AADT.
I-81 near Downtown (the part being demolished for a wasteful grid) is 68,999 AADT, I-481 is 46,351 AADT, roughly around the figures I mentioned.

NYSDOT disagrees with your 68,999 AADT numbers for I-81. I'm still not sure where you are getting your figures.
Straight from the NYSDOT AADT map...

https://gisportalny.dot.ny.gov/portalny/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=28537cbc8b5941e19cf8e959b16797b4

seicer

You are confusing actual and estimated. The estimated numbers are wildly different than what was actually generated.

webny99

Quote from: sprjus4 on August 23, 2021, 01:57:44 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 23, 2021, 01:45:28 PM
So...where are you taking this, then?  Sounds like there will still be a time savings taking I-690 to I-481 over I-390 to I-86, then.
Currently a 4 minute, 4 mile trip up I-81. Simple enough.
Now make it 12 minutes, 12 miles. That's what it takes via I-481 and I-690. So look again.
Then factor increased traffic and congestion during peak hours into that figure.

Basically this. It's significant extra time, but not enough to make it worth it to take I-390 to I-86. So the traffic is mostly going to just have to deal with it - which could mean any number of things; depending on the time of day and traffic situation downtown, traffic may try taking  the grid or figuring out some other way to get from I-90/I-690 down to I-81. Either way, the drivers themselves and the suburbs/communities on the alternate routes are not going to be happy about it (and rightly so IMO given the lack of planning with regards to a western bypass).


Quote from: Rothman on August 23, 2021, 01:45:28 PM
And, with the logistics centers being out near I-690/I-90 and at Carrier Circle, it still doesn't seem likely the movements to and from the south are as you describe.  Coming from the south, trucks would take I-81 to I-481 to I-90 to get to Carrier Circle (and the upcoming center at Kirkville Road, come to think of it), or I-81 to I-690 to get to the centers at I-690/I-90.  Not seeing why trucks getting to those areas would go through I-81/I-90.

Carrier Circle won't be impacted as much because of the proximity to I-481, but there's a big impact for trucks going to/from I-90/I-690: they'll have to take the grid or detour all the way out to I-481 just like everyone else, which adds significant time/mileage.


Rothman

The question is if there's enough of an impact to spend $300m more on replacing the viaduct, when that $300m could be spent elsewhere on NYSDOT's program and benefits gained there.

*shrug*

Perhaps the impacts mentioned, even if realized, have simply been deemed tolerable.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

sprjus4

^ So what happens in the future when a western bypass becomes highly desired and an actual need because the new western connection becomes unacceptable? Now we're spending some hundreds of millions on a new freeway facility, acquiring right of way in areas that were previously untouched, etc.

Or congestion grows on I-481 and widening is needed there? There's another some hundred million.

These are things not being considered with the immediate saving of "$300 million" .

kalvado

Quote from: sprjus4 on August 23, 2021, 03:53:15 PM
^ So what happens in the future when a western bypass becomes highly desired and an actual need because the new western connection becomes unacceptable? Now we're spending some hundreds of millions on a new freeway facility, acquiring right of way in areas that were previously untouched, etc.

Or congestion grows on I-481 and widening is needed there? There's another some hundred million.

These are things not being considered with the immediate saving of "$300 million" .
Some southwest bypass may be a good idea regardless, IMHO. I-390 is a good one, but finger lakes area  and southern tier may benefit from more N-S connectivity.

machias

Quote from: abqtraveler on August 23, 2021, 01:13:45 PM
At its Spring Meeting, AASHTO approved re-designating I-81 through Syracuse as Business Loop 81, and rerouting I-81 along the eastern leg of I-481. Given that, NYSDOT will eventually have to renumber exits along the eastern leg of I-481 after the signing change to I-81 takes place, and for I-81 north of there as well. So the million dollar question:  Given that exits on such a large portion of I-81 will have to be renumbered, will NYSDOT be required to convert exit numbers along the full length of I-81 to mile-based? I would suspect the FHWA might make NYSDOT do so, using the logic, "While we're at it...let's renumber all of the I-81 exits to mile-based."

Yes, NYSDOT Region 3 will be coordinating with Regions 9 and 7 to renumber all the interchanges on I-81 to distance based numbers. I'm thinking they'll fudge current Exit 36 (Pulaski) to Exit 122 for both directions. Might as well start the "exit numbering fudging" discussions.  :)

Rothman



Quote from: sprjus4 on August 23, 2021, 03:53:15 PM
^ So what happens in the future when a western bypass becomes highly desired and an actual need because the new western connection becomes unacceptable? Now we're spending some hundreds of millions on a new freeway facility, acquiring right of way in areas that were previously untouched, etc.

Or congestion grows on I-481 and widening is needed there? There's another some hundred million.

These are things not being considered with the immediate saving of "$300 million" .

Jeramiads didn't work for Jeremiah, either.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

webny99

Quote from: Rothman on August 23, 2021, 12:53:58 PM
Just a reminder as to where the project stands:  There are two remaining viable alternatives, the grid and replacing the viaduct, with NYSDOT choosing the grid as its preferred alternative.  The Draft Environmental Impact Statement has been released and comments are due by September 14th.  The public hearing was held last week and neighborhood meetings will be held around Syracuse over the next couple of weeks.

Construction is tentatively set to start in April 2022 (perhaps somewhat quixotically).

So, any desires and wishes outside of these parameters are actually moot at this point.

With this in mind, and out of curiosity ... has there ever been a case historically (in any state, not just NY) where the preferred alternative was NOT what ultimately came to fruition?

Rothman

Quote from: webny99 on August 23, 2021, 10:03:43 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 23, 2021, 12:53:58 PM
Just a reminder as to where the project stands:  There are two remaining viable alternatives, the grid and replacing the viaduct, with NYSDOT choosing the grid as its preferred alternative.  The Draft Environmental Impact Statement has been released and comments are due by September 14th.  The public hearing was held last week and neighborhood meetings will be held around Syracuse over the next couple of weeks.

Construction is tentatively set to start in April 2022 (perhaps somewhat quixotically).

So, any desires and wishes outside of these parameters are actually moot at this point.

With this in mind, and out of curiosity ... has there ever been a case historically (in any state, not just NY) where the preferred alternative was NOT what ultimately came to fruition?
Pretty sure, yes.  Might be headed in that direction on another project I'm aware of.  However, it takes massive public and political opposition rather than the split situation in Syracuse on I-81.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

vdeane

Quote from: machias on August 23, 2021, 06:13:23 PM
Quote from: abqtraveler on August 23, 2021, 01:13:45 PM
At its Spring Meeting, AASHTO approved re-designating I-81 through Syracuse as Business Loop 81, and rerouting I-81 along the eastern leg of I-481. Given that, NYSDOT will eventually have to renumber exits along the eastern leg of I-481 after the signing change to I-81 takes place, and for I-81 north of there as well. So the million dollar question:  Given that exits on such a large portion of I-81 will have to be renumbered, will NYSDOT be required to convert exit numbers along the full length of I-81 to mile-based? I would suspect the FHWA might make NYSDOT do so, using the logic, "While we're at it...let's renumber all of the I-81 exits to mile-based."

Yes, NYSDOT Region 3 will be coordinating with Regions 9 and 7 to renumber all the interchanges on I-81 to distance based numbers. I'm thinking they'll fudge current Exit 36 (Pulaski) to Exit 122 for both directions. Might as well start the "exit numbering fudging" discussions.  :)
Not just I-81 either.  I posted about this a few pages back; from the signage plans in the appendix for the DEIS, it appears that all roads NYSDOT Region 3 maintains that have exit numbers will be converted.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

yakra

The entirety of the roads, or just within Region 3?
Serious question.
"Officer, I'm always careful to drive the speed limit no matter where I am and that's what I was doin'." Said "No, you weren't," she said, "Yes, I was." He said, "Madam, I just clocked you at 22 MPH," and she said "That's the speed limit," he said "No ma'am, that's the route numbah!"  - Gary Crocker

webny99

Quote from: yakra on August 24, 2021, 11:24:38 AM
The entirety of the roads, or just within Region 3?
Serious question.

The entirety of I-81, but just within Region 3 for everything else (seeing as nothing else spans beyond Region 3 anyways).

There's actually not much besides I-81: just NY/I-690, NY 481, and presumably the new Business 81 Loop. NY 5 is unnumbered, but it would be nice to see it numbered based on its actual mileage from the PA line.

machias

Quote from: webny99 on August 24, 2021, 11:47:55 AM
Quote from: yakra on August 24, 2021, 11:24:38 AM
The entirety of the roads, or just within Region 3?
Serious question.

The entirety of I-81, but just within Region 3 for everything else (seeing as nothing else spans beyond Region 3 anyways).

There's actually not much besides I-81: just NY/I-690, NY 481, and presumably the new Business 81 Loop. NY 5 is unnumbered, but it would be nice to see it numbered based on its actual mileage from the PA line.

I'd been trying R3 to correct the mileposts on the NY 5 expressway; it has the mileposts from the beginning of the expressway instead of from the PA line.  R5 did the same thing on the Skyway, they either removed them or corrected them (I can't remember).

I'm of the belief all interchanges should have a distance based number, regardless of whether the roadway is an interstate or not. R3 has been inconsistent (no exit numbers on NY 690, but exit numbers on NY 481)

Rothman



Quote from: machias on August 24, 2021, 04:41:18 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 24, 2021, 11:47:55 AM
Quote from: yakra on August 24, 2021, 11:24:38 AM
The entirety of the roads, or just within Region 3?
Serious question.

The entirety of I-81, but just within Region 3 for everything else (seeing as nothing else spans beyond Region 3 anyways).

There's actually not much besides I-81: just NY/I-690, NY 481, and presumably the new Business 81 Loop. NY 5 is unnumbered, but it would be nice to see it numbered based on its actual mileage from the PA line.

I'd been trying R3 to correct the mileposts on the NY 5 expressway; it has the mileposts from the beginning of the expressway instead of from the PA line.  R5 did the same thing on the Skyway, they either removed them or corrected them (I can't remember).

I'm of the belief all interchanges should have a distance based number, regardless of whether the roadway is an interstate or not. R3 has been inconsistent (no exit numbers on NY 690, but exit numbers on NY 481)

I'd love to see the responses you got and from whom from your "trying."
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

seicer

Roundabout worries, Destiny's big reveal, spillover traffic: 6 takeaways from I-81 hearings in Syracuse

More than 600 people attended four public hearings last week to comment on a $2 billion plan that would remove part of Interstate 81 from the city and reimagine the highway system here.

Many of those who spoke had common themes. Move the traffic roundabout away from Dr. King Elementary School. Do more to keep vehicles — especially trucks -- from spilling into city neighborhoods and rural roads west of Syracuse. Shrink the boulevard that will replace I-81. Provide more time to allow people to study the massive plan. Prioritize construction jobs for local residents.

--

Key:

  • Nobody wants a roundabout that would be 120' from Dr. King Elementary. Some have suggested moving the roundabout to open up the original (and beautiful) entrance to Oakwood Cemetery that would, unfortunately, remain buried in this plan.
  • Potential spillover traffic concerns city and town residents
  • Grid opponents want (even) more time
  • This is about more than a highway
  • Destiny USA is showing its hand: "They've hired a former top lawyer for the Federal Highway Administration — the same agency that's leading the I-81 project alongside state DOT."
  • Grid-lovers and grid-haters agree on one thing: "Despite their disagreements, most people speaking out about the project agree on this: Nobody wants another Erie Boulevard at the foot of University Hill.With I-81 gone, the state is proposing to rebuild Almond Street as a four-lane boulevard. Plans show a wide median, turn lanes and big sidewalks. It's possible it could take two light changes to walk all the way across it. Even people who want to see the highway gone are worried about this."

Rothman

Quote from: seicer on August 24, 2021, 07:29:14 PM
Roundabout worries, Destiny's big reveal, spillover traffic: 6 takeaways from I-81 hearings in Syracuse

More than 600 people attended four public hearings last week to comment on a $2 billion plan that would remove part of Interstate 81 from the city and reimagine the highway system here.

Many of those who spoke had common themes. Move the traffic roundabout away from Dr. King Elementary School. Do more to keep vehicles — especially trucks -- from spilling into city neighborhoods and rural roads west of Syracuse. Shrink the boulevard that will replace I-81. Provide more time to allow people to study the massive plan. Prioritize construction jobs for local residents.

--

Key:

  • Nobody wants a roundabout that would be 120' from Dr. King Elementary. Some have suggested moving the roundabout to open up the original (and beautiful) entrance to Oakwood Cemetery that would, unfortunately, remain buried in this plan.
  • Potential spillover traffic concerns city and town residents
  • Grid opponents want (even) more time
  • This is about more than a highway
  • Destiny USA is showing its hand: "They've hired a former top lawyer for the Federal Highway Administration — the same agency that's leading the I-81 project alongside state DOT."
  • Grid-lovers and grid-haters agree on one thing: "Despite their disagreements, most people speaking out about the project agree on this: Nobody wants another Erie Boulevard at the foot of University Hill.With I-81 gone, the state is proposing to rebuild Almond Street as a four-lane boulevard. Plans show a wide median, turn lanes and big sidewalks. It's possible it could take two light changes to walk all the way across it. Even people who want to see the highway gone are worried about this."
An apt summary, speaking from my attendance.  The MLK neighborhood meeting will be interesting.

Notably, attendance was lower than in 2019.  Heard people blaming the bad weather and the general feeling to "get on with the project."
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

machias

Quote from: Rothman on August 24, 2021, 06:45:41 PM


Quote from: machias on August 24, 2021, 04:41:18 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 24, 2021, 11:47:55 AM
Quote from: yakra on August 24, 2021, 11:24:38 AM
The entirety of the roads, or just within Region 3?
Serious question.

The entirety of I-81, but just within Region 3 for everything else (seeing as nothing else spans beyond Region 3 anyways).

There's actually not much besides I-81: just NY/I-690, NY 481, and presumably the new Business 81 Loop. NY 5 is unnumbered, but it would be nice to see it numbered based on its actual mileage from the PA line.

I'd been trying R3 to correct the mileposts on the NY 5 expressway; it has the mileposts from the beginning of the expressway instead of from the PA line.  R5 did the same thing on the Skyway, they either removed them or corrected them (I can't remember).

I'm of the belief all interchanges should have a distance based number, regardless of whether the roadway is an interstate or not. R3 has been inconsistent (no exit numbers on NY 690, but exit numbers on NY 481)

I'd love to see the responses you got and from whom from your "trying."

It's been a few years since I contacted anyone at NYSDOT (since I don't live in New York anymore), but Region 3 was the most pleasant in that regard. We went back and forth in the early 2000s for "Albany Buffalo" to appear on the guide panels approaching the Thruway on the Syracuse area interstates, and they decided to do it with the following sign rehabs. I pointed out the mileposts on NY 5 being wrong, and the engineer that contacted me said "you're absolutely right" but never followed up on it. They also told me that NYSDOT didn't require interchange numbers on non-interstates. Probably the last thing we talked about was the distance based numbering for the Syracuse rebuild and that was before they decided on the grid, but it's been at least five years since that discussion.

Region 2 was tolerant but cooperative, I knew folks that worked in Utica and I actually interviewed there. They knew who I was before the interview. My bugging them probably didn't help the situation.


vdeane

Quote from: machias on August 24, 2021, 04:41:18 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 24, 2021, 11:47:55 AM
Quote from: yakra on August 24, 2021, 11:24:38 AM
The entirety of the roads, or just within Region 3?
Serious question.

The entirety of I-81, but just within Region 3 for everything else (seeing as nothing else spans beyond Region 3 anyways).

There's actually not much besides I-81: just NY/I-690, NY 481, and presumably the new Business 81 Loop. NY 5 is unnumbered, but it would be nice to see it numbered based on its actual mileage from the PA line.

I'd been trying R3 to correct the mileposts on the NY 5 expressway; it has the mileposts from the beginning of the expressway instead of from the PA line.  R5 did the same thing on the Skyway, they either removed them or corrected them (I can't remember).

I'm of the belief all interchanges should have a distance based number, regardless of whether the roadway is an interstate or not. R3 has been inconsistent (no exit numbers on NY 690, but exit numbers on NY 481)
NY 5 near the Skyway has milemarkers based on its mileage within Erie County (matching the milepoint system NYSDOT uses for some inventory purposes).  Meanwhile, the NY 33 milemarkers are for just the freeway portion, omitting the half mile or so to the west.  Given that as well as NY 104 and NY 7, I think milemarkers for just the freeway portion seems to be NYSDOT standard practice.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

cl94

Quote from: machias on August 24, 2021, 08:11:31 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 24, 2021, 06:45:41 PM


Quote from: machias on August 24, 2021, 04:41:18 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 24, 2021, 11:47:55 AM
Quote from: yakra on August 24, 2021, 11:24:38 AM
The entirety of the roads, or just within Region 3?
Serious question.

The entirety of I-81, but just within Region 3 for everything else (seeing as nothing else spans beyond Region 3 anyways).

There's actually not much besides I-81: just NY/I-690, NY 481, and presumably the new Business 81 Loop. NY 5 is unnumbered, but it would be nice to see it numbered based on its actual mileage from the PA line.

I'd been trying R3 to correct the mileposts on the NY 5 expressway; it has the mileposts from the beginning of the expressway instead of from the PA line.  R5 did the same thing on the Skyway, they either removed them or corrected them (I can't remember).

I'm of the belief all interchanges should have a distance based number, regardless of whether the roadway is an interstate or not. R3 has been inconsistent (no exit numbers on NY 690, but exit numbers on NY 481)

I'd love to see the responses you got and from whom from your "trying."

It's been a few years since I contacted anyone at NYSDOT (since I don't live in New York anymore), but Region 3 was the most pleasant in that regard. We went back and forth in the early 2000s for "Albany Buffalo" to appear on the guide panels approaching the Thruway on the Syracuse area interstates, and they decided to do it with the following sign rehabs. I pointed out the mileposts on NY 5 being wrong, and the engineer that contacted me said "you're absolutely right" but never followed up on it. They also told me that NYSDOT didn't require interchange numbers on non-interstates. Probably the last thing we talked about was the distance based numbering for the Syracuse rebuild and that was before they decided on the grid, but it's been at least five years since that discussion.

Region 2 was tolerant but cooperative, I knew folks that worked in Utica and I actually interviewed there. They knew who I was before the interview. My bugging them probably didn't help the situation.

Meanwhile, R1 has basically told me to F off when I contacted them in the past, to the point where I've given up on contacting them. I caught most of the sign errors R1 has installed in the past 5 years in the plan stage, but they refuse to issue change orders.
Please note: All posts represent my personal opinions and do not represent those of my employer or any of its partner agencies.

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