Interstate 87 (NC-VA)

[sprjus4]

I-95 -is- a freeway, and with a 70 mph speed limit.

US-58 is -not- a freeway, and only has a 60 mph rural speed limit, and 45-55 mph in the urban areas with traffic signals.

B A L O N E Y

and you know it.

You can't help yourself. Show your work before you start making false claims. Using existing 55 mph speed limits on US-17 is irrelevant, but is exactly what you're doing, failing to factor in 60+ miles would be increased to 70 mph.

[Beltway]

B A L O N E Y (any way you slice it)
and you know it.

You can't help yourself. Show your work before you start making false claims. Using existing 55 mph speed limits on US-17 is irrelevant, but is exactly what you're doing, failing to factor in 60+ miles would be increased to 70 mph.

20 miles and 20 minutes for you to overcome. 

Did you research the theme of that movie?

[froggie]

I'd agree with the fact it is redundant over US-58 if US-58 was a freeway, but it's not.

Whether US 58 is a freeway or not is immaterial to the point that it is the primary 4-lane corridor utilized by traffic between Hampton Roads and North Carolina.  Routes can be redundant to others regardless of what type of route it is.

By your logic, we should say that Military Hwy isn't redundant to 64 on the Southside because it isn't a freeway.

[plain]

This latest round of discussion (and bickering) actually led me to think about something: what exactly is stopping Chesapeake from increasing VA 168 & the rural part of US 17 in their present state to 60 MPH or more? Is there some kind of quirk in the state or federal law or something as far as city maintained roads go? Do these really need to be interstates for that to happen?

[sprjus4]

By your logic, we should say that Military Hwy isn't redundant to 64 on the Southside because it isn't a freeway.

It isn't redundant... it serves its own purposes for local traffic, and is a major thoroughfare east of US-17.

[sprjus4]

This latest round of discussion (and bickering) actually led me to think about something: what exactly is stopping Chesapeake from increasing VA 168 & the rural part of US 17 in their present state to 60 MPH or more? Is there some kind of quirk in the state or federal law or something as far as city maintained roads go? Do these really need to be interstates for that to happen?

US-17 cannot be higher than 60 mph due to its function not being a freeway but rather an at-grade arterial, but it can be raised to 60 mph. North Carolina raised its stretch about a decade ago, no reason Chesapeake can't. A city official told me over a year ago they were conducting a speed study on that stretch and would look at "raising it south of US-17 Business" , but who knows what happened to that being over a year later and nothing.

If Virginia were to ever extend I-87 up from the state line to I-64, the segment between the state line and US-17 Business could easily be 65 mph (it would drop from 70 mph to 65 mph at the state line) and 60 mph north of there to an improved Oak Grove Interchange at I-64.

As for VA-168, it can legally be as high as 70 mph as its a full freeway, and I would recommend a minimum of 60 mph on the entire thing, maybe 65 mph south of either VA-165 or Hanbury, but no higher than 60 mph north of there. Too much urban traffic, a few sharper curves, and substandard design features especially around the VA-168 Business / VA-190 area.

The only thing preventing it right now is a city ordinance that indicates the maximum allowable speed limit on city maintained roads is 55 mph. That would need to be revised in order to raise the city-maintained VA-168 and US-17.

[The Ghostbuster]

I really don't mind the Interstate 87 designation (although maybe it could have been a southern 97 or 99). I also wouldn't mind if it were Interstate 90210 (although such an Interstate designation would probably be better suited for the Los Angeles Metropolitan Area).

[wdcrft63]

The argument about whether I-87 will have any advantage over I-95/US 58 started about 10 minutes after NC asked for the interstate designation and it has occupied far too much space in this Forum ever since, probably without changing anyone's mind. I-87 may be a great idea or it may be a huge mistake, and if we live long enough we'll probably find out which it is. Meanwhile I-87 is going to get built and there are aspects of that development worth discussing here without any mention of US 58.

End of rant.

[Beltway]

The argument about whether I-87 will have any advantage over I-95/US 58 started about 10 minutes after NC asked for the interstate designation and it has occupied far too much space in this Forum ever since, probably without changing anyone's mind. I-87 may be a great idea or it may be a huge mistake, and if we live long enough we'll probably find out which it is. Meanwhile I-87 is going to get built and there are aspects of that development worth discussing here without any mention of US 58.
End of rant.

If I-86/NY-17 is any indication of the upgrading of a 4-lane arterial corridor, it may well be 50 years or more (if ever) before this one gets built.

[sparker]

The argument about whether I-87 will have any advantage over I-95/US 58 started about 10 minutes after NC asked for the interstate designation and it has occupied far too much space in this Forum ever since, probably without changing anyone's mind. I-87 may be a great idea or it may be a huge mistake, and if we live long enough we'll probably find out which it is. Meanwhile I-87 is going to get built and there are aspects of that development worth discussing here without any mention of US 58.
End of rant.

If I-86/NY-17 is any indication of the upgrading of a 4-lane arterial corridor, it may well be 50 years or more (if ever) before this one gets built.

Well -- it is NC, not NY, so official support for the corridor is likely to remain high; but if funding for statewide freeway projects keeps getting pushed back (as per the last few posts over in the NC state thread), the longer the developmental term is likely to be -- at least in the state that initiated the project (the irony doesn't escape me!).  It just might be that NC has bitten off more than it can chew in one sitting.

[froggie]

Well -- it is NC, not NY, so official support for the corridor is likely to remain high; but if funding for statewide freeway projects keeps getting pushed back (as per the last few posts over in the NC state thread), the longer the developmental term is likely to be -- at least in the state that initiated the project (the irony doesn't escape me!).  It just might be that NC has bitten off more than it can chew in one sitting.

Indeed...

[Beltway]

If I-86/NY-17 is any indication of the upgrading of a 4-lane arterial corridor, it may well be 50 years or more (if ever) before this one gets built.

Well -- it is NC, not NY, so official support for the corridor is likely to remain high; but if funding for statewide freeway projects keeps getting pushed back (as per the last few posts over in the NC state thread), the longer the developmental term is likely to be -- at least in the state that initiated the project (the irony doesn't escape me!).  It just might be that NC has bitten off more than it can chew in one sitting.

Have they been issuing massive amounts of general obligation bonds to help fund all these recent projects in the last 10 years or so?  Rising amounts of debt service taking more and more funding from the TIP?   That is what brought PennDOT's construction program to a screeching halt in the 1970s.

[goobnav]

If I-86/NY-17 is any indication of the upgrading of a 4-lane arterial corridor, it may well be 50 years or more (if ever) before this one gets built.

Well -- it is NC, not NY, so official support for the corridor is likely to remain high; but if funding for statewide freeway projects keeps getting pushed back (as per the last few posts over in the NC state thread), the longer the developmental term is likely to be -- at least in the state that initiated the project (the irony doesn't escape me!).  It just might be that NC has bitten off more than it can chew in one sitting.

Have they been issuing massive amounts of general obligation bonds to help fund all these recent projects in the last 10 years or so?  Rising amounts of debt service taking more and more funding from the TIP?   That is what brought PennDOT's construction program to a screeching halt in the 1970s.

NC is under better Management than PA, the side resurfacing deals that allowed for the piss poor construction, I-81, don't exist here.  Research Adinizo Construction for further reference in the PA debacle.

[sparker]

If I-86/NY-17 is any indication of the upgrading of a 4-lane arterial corridor, it may well be 50 years or more (if ever) before this one gets built.

Well -- it is NC, not NY, so official support for the corridor is likely to remain high; but if funding for statewide freeway projects keeps getting pushed back (as per the last few posts over in the NC state thread), the longer the developmental term is likely to be -- at least in the state that initiated the project (the irony doesn't escape me!).  It just might be that NC has bitten off more than it can chew in one sitting.

Have they been issuing massive amounts of general obligation bonds to help fund all these recent projects in the last 10 years or so?  Rising amounts of debt service taking more and more funding from the TIP?   That is what brought PennDOT's construction program to a screeching halt in the 1970s.

NC is under better Management than PA, the side resurfacing deals that allowed for the piss poor construction, I-81, don't exist here.  Research Adinizo Construction for further reference in the PA debacle.

Still......the consistent references to "balancing funding" clearly point toward "shortfall", at least in the near term.  The weather-related reconstruction expenses obviously didn't help, either.  Something tells me that NC will be stretching out its backlog of projects for a number of years -- which will, if history/experience has taught anything, will be as much motivated by intrastate politics as anything.  Whether it's I-87, I-42, or the Charlotte-Asheville US 74 (potential I-?) corridor, whoever can make -- and press -- a case for their regional corridor's prioritization will get it moved to the top of the list.  But that race may be equivalent to a turtle being faster than a snail, given the likely funding issues in the next decade or so.

[Beltway]

Have they been issuing massive amounts of general obligation bonds to help fund all these recent projects in the last 10 years or so?  Rising amounts of debt service taking more and more funding from the TIP?   That is what brought PennDOT's construction program to a screeching halt in the 1970s.

NC is under better Management than PA, the side resurfacing deals that allowed for the piss poor construction, I-81, don't exist here.  Research Adinizo Construction for further reference in the PA debacle.

Still......the consistent references to "balancing funding" clearly point toward "shortfall", at least in the near term.  The weather-related reconstruction expenses obviously didn't help, either.  Something tells me that NC will be stretching out its backlog of projects for a number of years -- which will, if history/experience has taught anything, will be as much motivated by intrastate politics as anything.  Whether it's I-87, I-42, or the Charlotte-Asheville US 74 (potential I-?) corridor, whoever can make -- and press -- a case for their regional corridor's prioritization will get it moved to the top of the list.  But that race may be equivalent to a turtle being faster than a snail, given the likely funding issues in the next decade or so.

I still suspect that the main issue is the secretive issuing of massive amounts of general obligation bonds to help fund all these recent projects.  For awhile there every time you turned around there was another contract award in the range of $100 million, $150 million, $200 million, etc. 

That level of debt service payments is what sucked the life out of PennDOT's construction program for at least the next 15 years.

[goobnav]

Have they been issuing massive amounts of general obligation bonds to help fund all these recent projects in the last 10 years or so?  Rising amounts of debt service taking more and more funding from the TIP?   That is what brought PennDOT's construction program to a screeching halt in the 1970s.

NC is under better Management than PA, the side resurfacing deals that allowed for the piss poor construction, I-81, don't exist here.  Research Adinizo Construction for further reference in the PA debacle.

Still......the consistent references to "balancing funding" clearly point toward "shortfall", at least in the near term.  The weather-related reconstruction expenses obviously didn't help, either.  Something tells me that NC will be stretching out its backlog of projects for a number of years -- which will, if history/experience has taught anything, will be as much motivated by intrastate politics as anything.  Whether it's I-87, I-42, or the Charlotte-Asheville US 74 (potential I-?) corridor, whoever can make -- and press -- a case for their regional corridor's prioritization will get it moved to the top of the list.  But that race may be equivalent to a turtle being faster than a snail, given the likely funding issues in the next decade or so.

I still suspect that the main issue is the secretive issuing of massive amounts of general obligation bonds to help fund all these recent projects.  For awhile there every time you turned around there was another contract award in the range of $100 million, $150 million, $200 million, etc. 

That level of debt service payments is what sucked the life out of PennDOT's construction program for at least the next 15 years.

Try like 30 years, remember the gas tax hike that was supposed to pay for bridge and road maintenance was given to the PA State Police. 

NC redid it's priority list and got the BS paving of a rep's driveway scheme flushed down the toilet when the General Assembly flipped and despite reports, it won't be flipping back anytime soon, not enough Yankees bringing the northern and western politics to override those either that left that BS behind or the natives and their families.

[sprjus4]

Interstates could mean business: Main highways to become I-87, I-587

Bracketed by soon-to-be interstate highways, Bailey, Middlesex and Spring Hope should see unprecedented growth in the coming years, but the drive for retail businesses will be more manual than automatic, according to state and local officials.

"We have to find a way to yank those motorists off the interstates,"  said state Sen. Rick Horner, a Nash County Republican who also represents part of Johnston County.

Horner said Johnston officials have figured out how to make the best of the interstates running through their towns, and Nash folks should be taking notes.

"Johnston County knows how to milk the interstate,"  Horner said. "People shop at those outlets, dumping all that sales tax, and drive away without requiring services and schools."

Smithfield has a shopping center on I-95 with more than 75 outlet stores. With the right development, the three southern Nash County towns could see the same type of growth, but it won't happen without hard work, Horner said.

The area is teeming with possibility.

Bailey and Middlesex have exits on U.S. 264, which is set to become I-587 from Zebulon to Greenville.

Bailey Mayor Thomas Richards said there's talk of Hardee's relocating to the U.S. 264 and N.C. 581 exchange. Having the popular fast-food restaurant at the interstate exchange, along with accompanying stores, would be a big boon to Bailey, Richards said.

Spring Hope has an exit on U.S. 64, which is set to become I-87 from Raleigh to Norfolk, Virginia. Signs along U.S. 64 already read "Future I-87."

Nash County Retail Economic Developer Susan Phelps said having interstates running past all three southern Nash municipalities should increase economic development.

Planned years ago, a Bojangles' restaurant at U.S. 64 and N.C. 581 just outside Spring Hope could finally become a reality.

Phelps said the project stalled because it needed other businesses at the multi-development site, which the restaurant franchise still owns.

The interstate just might bring enough traffic for developers to move forward.

"Infrastructure will help with all of that,"  Phelps said.

Horner said the area already needs another ABC store.

"Maybe that will pull in folks,"  Horner said.

The real question is whether the new interstates will create more traffic, Horner said.

"The question: What is the economic impact of an interstate designation? The answer: I have no idea,"  Horner said.

The interstate upgrade and any business growth won't happen overnight.

The completed project, which includes widening traffic lanes and shoulders for both highways, is expected to take two decades, said Andrew Barksdale, a spokesman for the N.C. Department of Transportation's Division 4, which includes Nash, Johnston and Wilson counties.

"Bottom line: We have to widen the paved shoulders and do other minor work to U.S. 264 in Wilson County before it can become I-587,"  Barksdale said. "However, there is no such project currently planned in the STIP (state transportation improvement plan) from 2020 to 2029 construction. But, this stretch of U.S. 264 is already fully controlled limited access with interchanges."

The newly christened highway will connect Wake County to Greenville, the largest city in North Carolina without interstate access.

"Interstate connectivity plays a key role in business recruitment and retention. This new designation will support greater economic development, improve access to East Carolina University and its medical center, and strengthen regional mobility,"  then-Gov. Pat McCrory said when he first announced the interstate designation in 2016.

Also in the works is turning U.S. 70, which runs through Johnston County, into I-42 from I-40 to Morehead City.

Southern Nash County doesn't have a specific project on the state transportation books, but Johnston County is well represented.

Bailey Chamber of Commerce President Cecil Hawley said that's because southern Nash didn't have real representation until Horner became its state senator.

Horner won re-election to a second term in the state senate in 2018 to represent a redrawn District 11, which is now made up of Nash County and the northern part of Johnston County. Horner represented Wilson County in his first term.

Horner said Johnston County has several projects happening due to its surging growth.

"It's all that crazy growth in Johnston County,"  Horner said. "It's a lot of road work the state was ill prepared for. Five miles of 42 will cost $50 million, including a bridge over the Neuse River."

And in case you didn't know, the two I-87's, NJ-87, or NC-87 are not currently planned to be connected.

Live Wire: Roads named '87′ will not link up in New Jersey (or NC)

Q: Will DOT be connecting the southern tip of Interstate 87 with the northern tip of I-87 in New Jersey? If so what cities will be affected? – D.W., Fayetteville

A: After speaking with a contractor from the New Jersey Department of Transportation's traffic engineering team, we learned that Interstate 87, also known as the Major Deegan Expressway, only runs through New York state.

According to the U.S. Department of Transportation staff, Interstate 87 runs from New York City north to the Canadian border in Champlain, New York. This piece of interstate passes Yankee Stadium and runs along the New York side of the Hudson River, ending at the Robert F. Kennedy Bridge. As stated by NJDOT staff, it is important not to get this Interstate 87 confused with Route 87, a state highway located in Atlantic City, New Jersey, or with the partially completed interstate highway 87 through North Carolina, which currently runs from Raleigh east to Wendell with plans to extend northeast toward Norfolk, Virginia. To add to the confusion, N.C. 87, a state highway, runs from Southport in a generally northwest direction into Virginia, near Eden.

Interstate 87 in New York has no plans to connect with the partially completed interstate highway 87 in the state of North Carolina, nor with Route 87 in New Jersey. I-87 in New York does not plan on a corridor purchase in the foreseeable future and there are no plans to extend it farther south. Motorists on I-87 can connect to multiple highways to travel south into the mid-Atlantic states or east into New England.

[Beltway]

Rah rah rah business league boosterism...

[Jim]

I can imagine the conversation on that second one.  Reporter calls New Jersey DOT to ask about their I-87 and the person has to explain that the road doesn't even go to NJ...  The person must have wanted to respond "So did you look at a map at all before calling me?"  Then they somehow get the idea that the whole thing's called the MDE.  Just about anyone on this forum could have written a better response without contacting anyone in any DOT...

[tolbs17]

I-87 should go to NJ... Make the existing I-87 in Yonkers I-287 and have I-87 end on the NJ turnpike. There is no reason for I-87 to go to New York, they already have I-95. I'm not sure if you can extend I-80 to New York!

This is more fictional than southeast, but i wanted to post it since that comment above wants I-87 in NJ.

[The Ghostbuster]

Never going to happen. Like the two 76s, 84s, 86s, and 88s, the two Interstate 87s will forever remain discontinuous. Given the situation, I think it would be almost impossible to connect Interstate 87 (future) in Norfolk with Interstate 87 in New York City.

[tolbs17]

Never going to happen. Like the two 76s, 84s, 86s, and 88s, the two Interstate 87s will forever remain discontinuous. Given the situation, I think it would be almost impossible to connect Interstate 87 (future) in Norfolk with Interstate 87 in New York City.

Unless the route was changed to I-97.

[goobnav]

Never going to happen. Like the two 76s, 84s, 86s, and 88s, the two Interstate 87s will forever remain discontinuous. Given the situation, I think it would be almost impossible to connect Interstate 87 (future) in Norfolk with Interstate 87 in New York City.

Out of all of them, 87 actually has a better chance, if routed over the CBBT, once four laned, and up US 13 to the NJTP, NJ 700, co sign with the I-95 portion of the NJTP across the GWB and connect with the existing I-87.

[froggie]

Anyone who thinks that "87 has a chance" really doesn't understand the Eastern Shore...

[tolbs17]

Anyone who thinks that "87 has a chance" really doesn't understand the Eastern Shore...

97 and 99 are in use but it should really be a 99 if we find a way how to take the existing 99 out of PA. I doubt the two I87s will ever be connected unless the interstate was changed to a different number that's greater than 95 of course.