Proposed US 412 Upgrade

[MikieTimT]

I also submitted an inquiry to ARDOT's website to hopefully get in front of Lorie Tudor, who is the director of ARDOT and on AASHTO that stated the following:

US-412 is currently being studied to upgrade to interstate status per the legislative mandate from Arkansas' and Oklahoma's sponsored legislation and I recently saw that the application was withdrawn.  I am hoping that the reason is because the designation for I-42 has already been proposed for a facility in North Carolina that will never have a logical connection to any of US-412.  Since Lori Tudor is an AASHTO representative, she has a platform to suggest the designation of the interstate during this process of conversion to interstate from I-35 to I-49.  Since the majority of the facility being considered is also concurrent with the High Priority Corridor Designation #8 of the 1991 ISTEA legislation from Tulsa to Nashville, it is a small portion of what was foreseen to be major E/W corridor in the center of the U.S.  Since Arkansas' plan is to have US-412 a 4 lane corridor all across the state, it seems like this would be a good marketing opportunity to request a designation that would foreshadow the eventual growth of the interstate east of Springdale and across the northern tier of Arkansas and through the western half of Tennessee as both areas are continually growing.  And I can think of no better marketing number for the interstate than I-50.  Imagine, Springdale is the center of the Interstate Highway System in numbering, and there really is no better area than US-412 to have the number 50.  The marketing benefits to the state are immense.  I-50 and I-60 were never designated when the IHS was originally designed so as not to have any route numbering collisions with a U.S. highway of the same number in a state.  Since our numbering has evolved past just a number for any given route in a state, for example, Arkansas has both a US-49 and an I-49, there doesn't seem to be a valid reason NOT to use the number 50 for an interstate designation.  I know that I-44 will cross south in Tulsa of whatever designation is given to the new interstate, but it is I-44 that breaks the interstate numbering grid being that it is a diagonal road, so whatever US-412 is destined to become, it needs to be as close to grid compliance as possible between I-40 and I-70 which are E/W interstates that US-412 never crosses.  I-50 would be a great designation for it, and I can find no other place anywhere in the U.S. that it really could ever be.  Ideally, I-50 would subsume the entire US-412 corridor eventually between I-25 and I-65, but the growth trends west of I-35 at this point would mean that any western extension would likely occur in the future long past our lifetimes.  However, in naming this new interstate, we need to consider what happens long after we're gone, so it would make for an excellent legacy to leave.  Can you please forward this on to Lorie Tudor for discussion during AASHTO proceedings that relate to this road project?  I have also made the same suggestion to my US House representative as well as both of my senators, however, only one ever contacted me about this idea.  Thanks for your time and for doing what it takes to get this project developed and marketed.

[Plutonic Panda]

^^^ great message and I hope it gets to the eyes of those in charge of this. I've wrote ODOT but not ARDOT. Maybe I should write them as well.

Ironically we're on page 42 of this thread. I'm not superstitious and all but let's get this thread to 50 pages long and then wait to see if it's signed I-50 haha

[MikieTimT]

^^^ great message and I hope it gets to the eyes of those in charge of this. I've wrote ODOT but not ARDOT. Maybe I should write them as well.

Ironically we're on page 42 of this thread. I'm not superstitious and all but let's get this thread to 50 pages long and then wait to see if it's signed I-50 haha

I'm not superstitious either, but it would be serendipitous if all that transpired before I turn 51 in April next year.

[The Ghostbuster]

The Interstate 42 designation could be resubmitted to AASTHO at a later date, or they could propose a different number for the corridor (my preference being Interstate 46).

[Bobby5280]

It's hard to believe no ROW was preserved even back when the HE Bailey was built you'd think they would have looked at a map and thought maybe we should work with the cities to preserve ROW here.

Oklahoma's state government is famous for being cheap. And they have either an inferiority complex with Texas or simply a knee-jerk contrarian attitude toward anything done in Texas -such as the way Texas designs its super highways..

Decades ago it was very common practice for Texas to build future freeway corridors as divided streets with big medians. They did that in a bunch of places, even out in rural areas. There is still a lot of evidence of those practices. Now TX DOT has become a bit more conservative about freeway corridor planning. But they'll still plant down a 2-lane road with a freeway/tollway-sized swath of land next to it.

Does Oklahoma ever copy that idea? HELL NO! Far be it for them to be accused of copying a Texas idea. It's better to just keep doing things stupid, the Oklahoma way.

[SoonerCowboy]

^^^ great message and I hope it gets to the eyes of those in charge of this. I've wrote ODOT but not ARDOT. Maybe I should write them as well.

Ironically we're on page 42 of this thread. I'm not superstitious and all but let's get this thread to 50 pages long and then wait to see if it's signed I-50 haha

I'm not superstitious either, but it would be serendipitous if all that transpired before I turn 51 in April next year.

Or if it takes any longer then at least by the time I turn 50 in June next year. LOL

[SoonerCowboy]

As far as the westward extension of US 412/I-42/I-50 (whatever it will be called) I could see it extending west of I-35 all the way to Las Vegas, New Mexico, and Nevada.

[US 89]

As far as the westward extension of US 412/I-42/I-50 (whatever it will be called) I could see it extending west of I-35 all the way to Las Vegas, New Mexico, and Nevada.

I couldn't.

[Plutonic Panda]

I could if lawmakers pushed for it.

[sprjus4]

As far as the westward extension of US 412/I-42/I-50 (whatever it will be called) I could see it extending west of I-35 all the way to Las Vegas, New Mexico, and Nevada.

I couldn't.

I also agree with that.

[swake]

As far as the westward extension of US 412/I-42/I-50 (whatever it will be called) I could see it extending west of I-35 all the way to Las Vegas, New Mexico, and Nevada.

I expect it will be extended west to Enid, but not beyond that. There's simply no traffic or demand for it. And many mountains.

[Scott5114]

I'll be a bit more optimistic and say there's very slight chance, (let's say 1 in 400) that it could get extended to Boise City if I-27 gets extended up to Limon. Having a free-flowing route through the Panhandle would be very nice.

West of there you run into the problem of 1) New Mexico somehow has even less money than Oklahoma does 2) there's basically nothing of note along that latitude in New Mexico—you're looking at control cities like "Taos" and "Shiprock". 3) It only gets worse as you approach Arizona, since then you have to work with the Navajo Nation, and your control city choices end up being stuff like "Kayenta" and "Tuba City". 4) Then you run into the Grand Canyon. Go south of it and you're basically duplicating I-40. Go north of it and you're playing "dodge the National Parks" and you're probably not actually going to reach Las Vegas* anyway, you'll run out at I-15 in St. George.

*I assume you mean Las Vegas NV and not Las Vegas NM. This is about the only context in which they're confusable.

[Plutonic Panda]

As far as the westward extension of US 412/I-42/I-50 (whatever it will be called) I could see it extending west of I-35 all the way to Las Vegas, New Mexico, and Nevada.

I expect it will be extended west to Enid, but not beyond that. There's simply no traffic or demand for it. And many mountains.

What mountains are there? Most of the road is fairly built up on the future I-27 corridor once you get past Clayton. All it needs is a simple albeit expensive upgrade to interstate quality. ROW and terrain clearance is already there just needs interchanges for the most part and a high speed connection at I-25. Not cheap and given New Mexico's politics I don't see them in any hurry to do it.

I figure Texas will build their part well before NM does anything and by that time maybe it might make more sense to route I-27 through the Panhandle where a future, preferably, I-50 connection could happen. I don't see something like that being completely out of the realm of possibilities in our lifetimes. It could then simply terminate here until, and this is getting more on the fictional side, be extended to I-25 if New Mexico and Texas/Oklahoma can agree on anything.

What needs to happen the most regardless of an interstate or not is a Clayton bypass.

[Henry]

As far as the westward extension of US 412/I-42/I-50 (whatever it will be called) I could see it extending west of I-35 all the way to Las Vegas, New Mexico, and Nevada.

I expect it will be extended west to Enid, but not beyond that. There's simply no traffic or demand for it. And many mountains.

That same statement can be applied to the AR side, east of Fayetteville. However, with the Future I-57 taking shape on the other side of the state, an eastern extension would be likely to meet at either Pocahontas and Walnut Ridge and also take over I-155 in the process. IN TN, it would meet I-69 at Dyersburg, and might reach its eventual end in Jackson.

I must add, though, that this hypothetical extension will not be needed until the aforementioned 2di's are fully built out.

[Rover_0]

As far as the westward extension of US 412/I-42/I-50 (whatever it will be called) I could see it extending west of I-35 all the way to Las Vegas, New Mexico, and Nevada.

I couldn't.

I also agree with that.

I don't see it either, at least in any of our lifetimes. That said, I'm partial to I-48 or I-58 so that either maybe, just maybe, US-48 or US-58 (or another U.S. Route) gets extended over the route (subsuming US-412) and we get a (near-)transcontinental route with a single number that carries the blue and red shield (when up to standards) or the black and white shield (when not up standards).

It's far-fetched but that's the closest we'll get to a full, east-west Interstate that stretches the length of the area bordered by I-40, I-65, I-70, and I-15.

[The Ghostbuster]

If the future Interstate designation were extended west of Interstate 35, it would need a bypass of Enid (assuming it continues west of Enid). A northern bypass might be too out-of-the-way, while a southern bypass would be a tight squeeze as it would likely have to go somewhere between Richland Ave. and W. Southgate Rd. I doubt they would try and run it through the Meadowlake Golf Course, and of course, they definitely wouldn't run it through the Vance Air Force Base. I doubt any future Interstate would ever need to be built any further west than Woodward.

[intelati49]

As far as the westward extension of US 412/I-42/I-50 (whatever it will be called) I could see it extending west of I-35 all the way to Las Vegas, New Mexico, and Nevada.

I expect it will be extended west to Enid, but not beyond that. There's simply no traffic or demand for it. And many mountains.

That same statement can be applied to the AR side, east of Fayetteville. However, with the Future I-57 taking shape on the other side of the state, an eastern extension would be likely to meet at either Pocahontas and Walnut Ridge and also take over I-155 in the process. IN TN, it would meet I-69 at Dyersburg, and might reach its eventual end in Jackson.

I must add, though, that this hypothetical extension will not be needed until the aforementioned 2di's are fully built out.

Is an interstate end at a US(6)5 fine? Like it's a major route from Springfield to Little Rock...

[MikieTimT]

As far as the westward extension of US 412/I-42/I-50 (whatever it will be called) I could see it extending west of I-35 all the way to Las Vegas, New Mexico, and Nevada.

I expect it will be extended west to Enid, but not beyond that. There's simply no traffic or demand for it. And many mountains.

That same statement can be applied to the AR side, east of Fayetteville. However, with the Future I-57 taking shape on the other side of the state, an eastern extension would be likely to meet at either Pocahontas and Walnut Ridge and also take over I-155 in the process. IN TN, it would meet I-69 at Dyersburg, and might reach its eventual end in Jackson.

I must add, though, that this hypothetical extension will not be needed until the aforementioned 2di's are fully built out.

Is an interstate end at a US(6)5 fine? Like it's a major route from Springfield to Little Rock...

It's the most likely next segment after the I-35 to I-49 portion is done.  It'll be a 4 lane eventually regardless of whether it ever becomes interstate worthy.  The ~35 miles from Huntsville where the current 4 lane divided ends to Alpena where it picks back up will take some serious blasting, filling, and bridging on new terrain since the geometry of the current 2 lane is no bueno.  It probably wouldn't happen prior to US-65 being upgraded to 4-5 lanes from Clinton to Bellefonte.

[Plutonic Panda]

I wonder when they get the current US-412 situation sorted out and signed if ODOT will ever get serious on working with Texas for an I-45 extension to Tulsa.

[Bobby5280]

ODOT might work with TX DOT on an I-45 extension once enough old farts in Atoka and Stringtown die off and not pose enough political resistance to get in the way anymore. Of course other things need to improve in Oklahoma for such a highway project to have any chance of being funded either.

I'll be a bit more optimistic and say there's very slight chance, (let's say 1 in 400) that it could get extended to Boise City if I-27 gets extended up to Limon. Having a free-flowing route through the Panhandle would be very nice.

I think it would take more than just I-27 getting extended up to Limon to encourage ODOT or OTA to upgrade US-412 to Interstate quality from I-35 to as far as Boise City.

If both Northern legs of the Ports to Plains Corridor were built as Interstates to Limon and Raton then there might be a tiny, very outside chance a US-412 Interstate could reach Boise City as well as Clayton, NM. The US-412 Interstate route would have its Western terminus set at another significant route in Clayton -a route still traveling Westbound to Raton.

Simply ending a US-412 Interstate at Boise City would have it ending at a hard North-South "T" junction, even if the junction was I-27. Boise City alone isn't an important enough destination to do that.

I can certainly see justification to extend a US-412 Interstate from I-35 to Enid at the very least. In Enid they could build a Southern bypass between the town and Vance AFB. US-81 could probably use some kind of relief route around Enid too.

Going farther West to Woodward wouldn't be outlandish either. The split between US-412 and US-183 at Fort Supply outside Woodward is about as far West as such a highway could be built under current circumstances. Traffic either diverts North to Dodge City or continues West. If you draw a diagonal line from Fort Supply, OK to Kit Carson, CO you'll see a very obvious Denver-OKC diagonal emerge. That's the kind of super highway that needs to be built out there. Denver and OKC are both major destinations and hub cities on the national highway network. Plus, there is next to nothing in regards to NW-SE diagonal Interstates in the Western US.

I see zero chance of US-412 across NM being upgraded to Interstate quality. It would be one thing building the upgrade to I-25. It would be much more difficult building West of it. The terrain is too mountainous and there's too many tribal reservations.

[sprjus4]

I feel like this is taking a turn into fictional territory, especially once we're talking west of I-35.

[Plutonic Panda]

I feel like this is taking a turn into fictional territory, especially once we're talking west of I-35.

I wouldn't say it's so fictional. I do believe it has been talked about in some capacity by either ODOT or lawmakers who mentioned it could be extended west one day.

[Bobby5280]

I can't remember where I saw it, but I do recall seeing old maps of potential conceptual turnpikes in Oklahoma. One of them included a turnpike starting in the OKC metro and going NW to Woodward. Now that's not nearly as ambitious as a OKC-Denver diagonal highway corridor, but it would build out a pretty significant chunk of the route.

Our highway network has lots of diagonal routes that run SW to NE. There are very few running 180 degrees in the opposite diagonal. Metros in the NW US have very little in the way of direct paths to the SE part of the US. That's despite population growth in the NW US and SE US.

[US 89]

Our highway network has lots of diagonal routes that run SW to NE. There are very few running 180 degrees in the opposite diagonal. Metros in the NW US have very little in the way of direct paths to the SE part of the US. That's despite population growth in the NW US and SE US.

Yep, this is something I've experienced many times driving to and from the southeast US. The western I-84, I-24, I-22, and I-26 are really all we have in that regard.

[Bobby5280]

I-84 from Portland to the Salt Lake City region is the only significant NW to SE diagonal Interstate highway West of the Mississippi River.

Yeah, there's I-82. But that's really a companion route for I-84. I-11 (if/when it is ever completed) would be another NW-SE diagonal route, but that one is confined to a smaller region. It's probably only going to be a Las Vegas to outside of Phoenix route.

I-84 is a pretty important route since it moves a lot of traffic between Northwest metro regions (Seattle, Portland, Boise) to the hub in the SLC metro. Unfortunately from that point on Eastward the traffic movement is locked into a very limited and spread out grid. I think the US-6 corridor from the Provo area needs to be upgraded fully to Interstate standards down to I-70. Short bits of US-6 in that area are limited access, but most of it is either 2-lane or undivided 4-lane road. Still, that's the main route between the SLC and Denver metros.

The Denver area is located at the main outlet thru the Rocky Mountains going East. It's an important hub city in the highway network. I think it's only logical for that region to have another diagonal Interstate pointing Southeast. If I-27 is extended up to Limon it would cover one segment of that diagonal route, the stretch from Limon down to Kit Carson. A new diagonal highway going from Kit Carson, skirting Garden City and then to Fort Supply, OK would be a very valuable addition to the highway network. A US-412 Interstate extended West from I-35 could hook into that. The result would create a faster, more efficient link between the metros in the Northwest and metros in the Great Plains and Deep South.