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'No other way to get around besides 71' | City of Bee Cave, TxDOT working to fin

Started by ZLoth, January 24, 2024, 05:56:39 PM

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ZLoth

From KVUE (ABC):

'No other way to get around besides 71' | City of Bee Cave, TxDOT working to find traffic solutions
From oil spills to medical emergencies, the only way through Bee Cave is on State Highway 71. City officials are working to change that.
QuoteWhat was once considered a quaint little town on the edge of the Hill Country, about 30 minutes west of Austin, is now buzzing with growth.

Bee Cave Mayor Kara King knows firsthand how the city has changed over the years.

"When we first moved here 16 years ago, I could get from my house near [State Highway] 71 in Bel Divide to City Hall in three minutes. Now it takes me about 15 to 20," King said. "With no accidents and no traffic backups, I could be in Austin in 25 minutes. It's now 45 minutes to an hour."
FULL ARTICLE HERE

Map of Bee Cave. I initially thought it was a fictional place because of the Team Fortress II Engineer reference, but nope, it's real.
I'm an Engineer. That means I solve problems. Not problems like "What is beauty?", because that would fall within the purview of your conundrums of philosophy. I solve practical problems and call them "paychecks".


GaryV

I met a composer once from Bee Cave. It was at a choral reading session (choir directors and others go to sing through new music). He was moved because he'd never heard his piece sung by a full choir before - his church only had 6 or so in the choir.

Bobby5280

It shouldn't be surprising TX-71 thru Bee Cave is turning into a traffic bottleneck. The immediate area around Bee Cave and locations near and along Lake Travis are booming with a lot of development (more of it on the upper income side). The Austin metro in general is still one of the fastest growing metros in the US.

TX-71 is the main outlet on the South side of that zone. It's 6-lane divided in front of the Hill Country Galleria. But it drops down to a 5-lane undivided configuration elsewhere, including all the way down to the "Y" in Oak Hill with US-290. It doesn't look like there is any access filtering; plenty of driveways and cross streets make direct contact with the TX-71 main lanes.

The Hill Country topography and Colorado River/Lake Travis are obstacles to any major new highway corridors. The housing, golf courses and other stuff getting built out there might be even more difficult obstacles. Planners will likely be stuck having to increase capacity on existing roads like TX-71.

I'm skeptical TX-71 could be upgraded into a freeway from the Oak Hill Y up to Bee Cave. OTOH, with TX DOT planning to extend the US-290 freeway to the edge of Dripping Springs a freeway along that portion of TX-71 could be possible too. They kind of blew it with Southwest Parkway; it's a 6-lane divided street, but has 10 signaled intersections between US-290 and TX-71. And there is no room to make it limited access.

The situation along RM-620 looks just as bad as TX-71, if not worse.

I won't be surprised if there is a chorus of people saying, "we need to built rail lines and other mass transit options in the Hill Country! Low wage workers staffing restaurants and retail stores there might be able to use that. But I sure don't see any upper income residents doing any "strap hanging" on a commuter train. Ridership numbers would likely be way too low to make any rail efforts worth it. Let's not forget there are lots of hills and uneven terrain there. That translates to lots of bridges and tunnels. Street and highway upgrades (along with access controls for driveways and cross streets) will have to be the main focus.

BJ59

Could the TX-45 Loop around the Austin metro serve as a relief route? It seems like if you connected the South end to the North end it could run close to Bee Cave, serving as a North-South route through the Bee Cave area.

Bobby5280

The TX-45 partial loop won't do much to help the Bee Cave area and other spots near Lake Travis unless they were somehow able to extend the toll road along RM-620 past the US-183 interchange. They would have to clear a hell of a lot of properties. But...RM-620 is a very busy road already. I could picture TX DOT being forced to do a big upgrade as far as the RM-2222 intersection or even Mansfield Dam. Further upgrades look like a no-go past the dam.

It looks like there are plans for the Southern leg of TX-45 to be extended West to merge into US-290. But that runs well South of the Bee Cave area.

The 360 loop probably isn't going to help those locations miles to the West even if it is fully upgraded to a freeway. Connecting arterials like Bee Cave Road and RM-2222 would need more improvement, namely in the form of fewer traffic signals and fewer driveways spilling directly out into the main lanes.

edwaleni

I would just extend Southwest Parkway to the south and west of Bee Cave, but make it more limited in access. Connect it with Vail Divide on the NW side of town.

DNAguy

Crazy how much growth / the kind of growth in that area.
Lots of $ and no real opposition to highways anymore.

Anyhow, I think you'll likely see an upgraded 2x2 grade separated freeway with frontage roads from either Vail Divide or Serene Hill Dr (west of town) to Spanish Oak Club on the Bee Cave side of Barton Creek.

This keeps cost lower as they won't have to expand the bridge over the creek and while it's never fun to buy up some properties for ROW or run this thing through town.... there seems to be enough space for a 'tight' grade separated freeway.

If upgrading existing 71 is the answer one could argue the need for adding an additional grade separation at Southwest Parkway that would help overall traffic patterns

In addition, adding at least 2 or 3 grade separations on Bee Cave Rd. between 360 and 71 and maybe consolidate some lights / intersections where it makes sense has to also be considered to help funnel Bee Cave to central / north Austin traffic to what will be an upgraded Loop 360 by then.

My first stab would be at grade separation at Bee Cave Parkway, Barton Creek Blvd, and one of the two cross streets near 360. My preference would be to add it at the cross street in front of Dimensional place and eliminate the Castle ride rd intersection all together. Route that crossing as a driveway to the access road of 360.

I just don't know how much real relief the city would feel if you extended Southwest Parkway to the west side of town as mentioned by @edwaleni.
But it does need to be studied and fleshed out as it seems feasible and could be an answer here.




Bobby5280

Quote from: DNAguyCrazy how much growth / the kind of growth in that area.
Lots of $ and no real opposition to highways anymore.

Oh, there's still plenty of opposition to new highways. It's just that the Austin metro has grown so much (and still continues to grow) that traffic on many arterials has become too much of a slog for anyone to tolerate anymore. Most people have to get around using motor vehicles. That especially goes for people living on the West side of the metro.

Quote from: DNAguyAnyhow, I think you'll likely see an upgraded 2x2 grade separated freeway with frontage roads from either Vail Divide or Serene Hill Dr (west of town) to Spanish Oak Club on the Bee Cave side of Barton Creek.

A 2x2 freeway with frontage roads? Along which corridor? TX-71?

Quote from: DNAguyI just don't know how much real relief the city would feel if you extended Southwest Parkway to the west side of town as mentioned by @edwaleni.
But it does need to be studied and fleshed out as it seems feasible and could be an answer here.

Southwest Parkway is already facing problems. They didn't reserve enough ROW when they built it 30+ years ago. Turning the existing 6-lane street into freeway main lanes and then possibly adding outboard frontage roads would slice through some parking lots and back yards built too close to the road. There are 9 intersections with traffic signals and several more without signals. They might be able to do some grade separations/freeway exits in specific spots and have short portions working as limited access. But it looks like another Loop-360 situation all over again.

Ironically, I think it would be easier from a legal standpoint to upgrade TX-71 into a freeway from the Oak Hill Y with US-290 up to the East edge of Bee Cave. Most of the properties next to TX-71 are commercial businesses. Those are easier to buy and clear than residential homes. Even if they could push a TX-71 freeway into Bee Cave it's likely they're going to have to do some other things.

DNAguy

Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 30, 2024, 08:44:03 PM
Quote from: DNAguyCrazy how much growth / the kind of growth in that area.
Lots of $ and no real opposition to highways anymore.

Oh, there's still plenty of opposition to new highways. It's just that the Austin metro has grown so much (and still continues to grow) that traffic on many arterials has become too much of a slog for anyone to tolerate anymore. Most people have to get around using motor vehicles. That especially goes for people living on the West side of the metro.

Quote from: DNAguyAnyhow, I think you'll likely see an upgraded 2x2 grade separated freeway with frontage roads from either Vail Divide or Serene Hill Dr (west of town) to Spanish Oak Club on the Bee Cave side of Barton Creek.

A 2x2 freeway with frontage roads? Along which corridor? TX-71?

Quote from: DNAguyI just don't know how much real relief the city would feel if you extended Southwest Parkway to the west side of town as mentioned by @edwaleni.
But it does need to be studied and fleshed out as it seems feasible and could be an answer here.

Southwest Parkway is already facing problems. They didn't reserve enough ROW when they built it 30+ years ago. Turning the existing 6-lane street into freeway main lanes and then possibly adding outboard frontage roads would slice through some parking lots and back yards built too close to the road. There are 9 intersections with traffic signals and several more without signals. They might be able to do some grade separations/freeway exits in specific spots and have short portions working as limited access. But it looks like another Loop-360 situation all over again.

Ironically, I think it would be easier from a legal standpoint to upgrade TX-71 into a freeway from the Oak Hill Y with US-290 up to the East edge of Bee Cave. Most of the properties next to TX-71 are commercial businesses. Those are easier to buy and clear than residential homes. Even if they could push a TX-71 freeway into Bee Cave it's likely they're going to have to do some other things.

I'll preface this with the fact that I haven't driven through Bee Cave in close to 10 years.

But I thought that A 2X2 grade separated highway with a 3 lane frontrage road on each side could fit in the current ROW or with minimal ROW purchase / property or business loss.

I could be wrong.

But any solution has to also address Bee Cave Rd to 360 for the traffic that ultimately is destined for central / northern Austin.

RM620 is too congested and no longer a viable option

Echostatic

A SH-71 upgrade through Bee Cave would be similarly difficult to the US 290 expansion to Dripping Springs being discussed in another thread here. The ROW isn't extremely constrained, and surrounding properties are mostly commercial, but substantial acquisition would still be required for a freeway with frontage roads. It's just a little too tight.
Travelled in part or in full.

Bobby5280

An upgrade of TX-71 from the Oak Hill Y up to Bee Cave wouldn't be easy, but it still would be do-able.

One bad thing: that new "Y" interchange with US-290 and TX-71 they're currently building would have to be modified significantly. If the draft schematic I've seen is still accurate TX-71 would have one lane flyover ramps from US-290 dropping down in between the surface lanes of TX-71.

The farthest I can imagine a TX-71 freeway going to Bee Cave is a couple blocks East of the Hill Country Galleria. There would have to be some fairly big property removals to push a freeway past the Galleria.

Quote from: DNAguyBut I thought that A 2X2 grade separated highway with a 3 lane frontage road on each side could fit in the current ROW or with minimal ROW purchase / property or business loss.

The existing TX-71 ROW from Oak Hill to Bee Cave ranges from 120' to 150' wide in the built-up areas. That's not nearly enough room to hold both a freeway and frontage roads. Either an elevated structure has to be built for the freeway or the ROW has to be expanded (and eat existing properties).

A 2x2 freeway with 10' outer shoulders, 6' inner shoulders and a little extra room for concrete Jersey barriers is going to consume a minimum of 84' of ROW. With the way the Western reaches of Austin are growing any freeway upgrade of TX-71 should probably start in a 3x3 configuration. That's another 24' of ROW or a total of 108'. It's possible to pack frontage road lanes and freeway lanes closely together between interchanges. More ROW is needed where slip ramps are located. Outside the frontage roads there has to be enough room for things like utilities and drainage. It's easy for all of that to consume at least 250' of ROW. In Texas it's common for a 3x3 freeway with frontage roads to have ROW widths of 300' or more.

Quote from: DNAguyRM620 is too congested and no longer a viable option

I think they're eventually going to be forced to extend the Northern leg of the TX-45 toll road from the US-183 interchange. They'll have to push the extension along RM-620, moving farther Southwest. It can be done in stages (Anderson Mill Road, then Boulder Lane, Wilson Park Ave and then RM-2222).

djlynch

Quote from: Echostatic on January 31, 2024, 02:06:47 PM
A SH-71 upgrade through Bee Cave would be similarly difficult to the US 290 expansion to Dripping Springs being discussed in another thread here. The ROW isn't extremely constrained, and surrounding properties are mostly commercial, but substantial acquisition would still be required for a freeway with frontage roads. It's just a little too tight.

The takings through Bee Cave would be far less than is proposed for 290 through Cedar Valley. There's just enough room (about 350 feet) that you can thread the needle between The Galleria and the shops on the south side. The biggest thing would be that a 350-foot ROW that avoids the apartment complex just east of Bee Caves Road means that H-E-B loses about half of its parking lot, and you can keep the telephone exchange and the Spec's on the south side at 620 or the church and the gas station on the north side, but not both.



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