http://www.azdot.gov/media/News/news-release/2016/08/19/adot-federal-highway-administration-prevail-in-south-mountain-freeway-lawsuit
While this is a major victory for ADOT as well as Arizona, it isn't quite the time to celebrate just yet, since PARC plans on taking the case to the 9th Circuit, which is a bit concerning since they are very liberal. Hopefully the 9th Circuit is wise enough to accept that PARC's and GRIC's cases against the freeway are meritless.
Now boil them in oil!
Not bad. Well done.
Not looking forward to the massive headache that is to come on I-10 west of Phoenix when they build that interchange though. Good thing I live out of state :-D
Quote from: NE2 on August 19, 2016, 11:50:49 PM
Now boil them in oil!
It's funny how much the tone has changed on freeway development in Arizona. So much for the good old days of the I-10 downtown Phoenix freeway wars....you best not have issue with any new freeway plans these days. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 20, 2016, 11:24:48 PM
Quote from: NE2 on August 19, 2016, 11:50:49 PM
Now boil them in oil!
It's funny how much the tone has changed on freeway development in Arizona. So much for the good old days of the I-10 downtown Phoenix freeway wars....you best not have issue with any new freeway plans these days. :rolleyes:
I think this particular battle has more bitterness towards the opposition because the plans have been on the books for over 30 years and multiple attempts to build it have been scuttled because of this handful of NIMBY's who try to find every excuse possible for why to not build the freeway. I think it's actually similar to how the 710/Long Beach Freeway is viewed by such a large majority, and the main opposition is just the local people right there who just stick their fingers in their ears and scream "NO! Just NO" on every proposal. Except our freeway is actually being built.
Honestly, I think everyone looks back on those horrific plans in the 60's and 70's for I-10 in Downtown Phoenix and are grateful that the opposition then won out. The plans were just terrible. With the South Mountain freeway, a lot of thought process has gone into the routing and design to do as much as possible to appease those opposed. In the 60's, ADOT/Phoenix was just like "Yeah, we're gonna built a 10-story high freeway with huge spiral ramps covering hundreds of acres and to hell if you don't like it." The opposition back then caused ADOT to go back to square one, and we got the Deck Park Tunnel which is a MUCH better design than whatever the hell that was that was proposed in the 60's.
In this case, ADOT has bent over backwards to try to take care of as much of the issues as possible. They tried for years working with the Gila River tribe to avoid all the problems completely, but for whatever reason, the tribe won't budge (and they're within their right to do so.) So ADOT has worked through a corridor they've had set up for 30 years. Remember, 90% of that path was kept clear for all these years in anticipation of the freeway. Only that one neighborhood between 26th St and 27th Pl and the Mountain Park Community Church (and a much smaller section out near 27th Ave) somehow got put in (and whoever let that happen should be heavily criticized). But the opposition's only real objection is just simply "We don't think you need this freeway at all."
Those NIMBYs should be forced to wear pink.
Quote from: Sonic99 on August 21, 2016, 12:18:50 AM
But the opposition's only real objection is just simply "We don't think you need this freeway at all."
This makes me recall that a while back I found some of PARC's proposed alternatives to the South Mountain Freeway:
http://protectazchildren.org/possible-alternatives-to-smf/ (http://protectazchildren.org/possible-alternatives-to-smf/)
One of them literally says "8-10 lane Loop 202 following Baseline Road from 51st Ave to I-10", which tells me that these people are nothing but a bunch of hypocrites; they don't care if other communities are destroyed by a freeway, as long as
theirs isn't. I mean honestly, building along baseline road would displace so many more people and would be so much more expensive, yet they accuse ADOT of poor planning, sheesh.
Anyway, I hope nothing comes of their plans with the 9th Circuit. I can't wait to see some construction!
Quote from: NE2 on August 21, 2016, 01:02:02 AM
Those NIMBYs should be forced to wear pink.
A couple years ago they would have had to if they ended up in Tent City but apparently that got declared "cruel and unusual." Does anyone know if MCSO still does the green eggs and ham?
Quote from: Sonic99 on August 21, 2016, 12:18:50 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 20, 2016, 11:24:48 PM
Quote from: NE2 on August 19, 2016, 11:50:49 PM
Now boil them in oil!
It's funny how much the tone has changed on freeway development in Arizona. So much for the good old days of the I-10 downtown Phoenix freeway wars....you best not have issue with any new freeway plans these days. :rolleyes:
I think this particular battle has more bitterness towards the opposition because the plans have been on the books for over 30 years and multiple attempts to build it have been scuttled because of this handful of NIMBY's who try to find every excuse possible for why to not build the freeway. I think it's actually similar to how the 710/Long Beach Freeway is viewed by such a large majority, and the main opposition is just the local people right there who just stick their fingers in their ears and scream "NO! Just NO" on every proposal. Except our freeway is actually being built.
Honestly, I think everyone looks back on those horrific plans in the 60's and 70's for I-10 in Downtown Phoenix and are grateful that the opposition then won out. The plans were just terrible. With the South Mountain freeway, a lot of thought process has gone into the routing and design to do as much as possible to appease those opposed. In the 60's, ADOT/Phoenix was just like "Yeah, we're gonna built a 10-story high freeway with huge spiral ramps covering hundreds of acres and to hell if you don't like it." The opposition back then caused ADOT to go back to square one, and we got the Deck Park Tunnel which is a MUCH better design than whatever the hell that was that was proposed in the 60's.
In this case, ADOT has bent over backwards to try to take care of as much of the issues as possible. They tried for years working with the Gila River tribe to avoid all the problems completely, but for whatever reason, the tribe won't budge (and they're within their right to do so.) So ADOT has worked through a corridor they've had set up for 30 years. Remember, 90% of that path was kept clear for all these years in anticipation of the freeway. Only that one neighborhood between 26th St and 27th Pl and the Mountain Park Community Church (and a much smaller section out near 27th Ave) somehow got put in (and whoever let that happen should be heavily criticized). But the opposition's only real objection is just simply "We don't think you need this freeway at all."
The Gila Tribe has been pretty much known to fight everyone over everything in regards to land usage on the reservation. In regards to roadways it pretty much all stems back to those demands about an I-10 Frontage Road that they wanted. Hell they even fought the National Park Service about opening Snake Town for public visitation. Then was that whole wriggamoral a couple years ago about tearing down Fire Bird Raceway for a shopping center. As for that church and homes....people with a crap load of money apparently but not a lot of common sense:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.291134,-112.0298514,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdLxhqmkMuzogypAY_MYJRw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1?hl=en
Really?....that place is a friggin compound. :-D
It definitely looks like PARC is more interested in just keeping Loop 202 out of Ahwatukee than anything else. I did copy some of the alternatives PARC had on their site. They are below:
(1) 8-10 lane Loop 202 on the Gila River Indian Community (GRIC), with permission.
(2) Light rail along Pecos Road but going through a small portion of the GRIC (with permission) rather than cutting through South Mountain.
(3) 8-10 lane Loop 202 following Baseline Road from 51st Ave to I-10.
(4) 8-10 lane Loop 202 from I-10 near Avondale going along the west side of the Estrella Mountains and then cutting between the Estrella and Maricopa Mountains, following the southern boundary of the GRIC to the I-10 north of Casa Grande.
(5) 8-10 lane freeway along State Route 85 from I-10 at Buckeye to I-8 at Gila Bend as a "real" truck by-pass.
(6) 8-10 lane freeway along State Route 85 from I-10 at Buckeye, cutting between the Estrella and Maricopa Mountains and across to I-10 north of Casa Grande as a "real" truck by-pass.
(7) 8-10 lane freeway along one of the routes described in 2, 3, or 4, and renumber it as the I-10 so all "through" traffic would take this route as a default.
(8) Renumber the I-10 through Phoenix as I-810 or the like, making it obvious that it is for Phoenix traffic only.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 21, 2016, 07:50:04 AM
The Gila Tribe has been pretty much known to fight everyone over everything in regards to land usage on the reservation. In regards to roadways it pretty much all stems back to those demands about an I-10 Frontage Road that they wanted. Hell they even fought the National Park Service about opening Snake Town for public visitation. Then was that whole wriggamoral a couple years ago about tearing down Fire Bird Raceway for a shopping center. As for that church and homes....people with a crap load of money apparently but not a lot of common sense:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.291134,-112.0298514,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdLxhqmkMuzogypAY_MYJRw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1?hl=en
Really?....that place is a friggin compound. :-D
The Gila Tribe though also gets influenced by a lot of outside interest more than you think. I know they have been against those frontage roads in I-10, but when the 202 came up for a vote I saw a lot of "vote buying" going on on both sides. here's one article, but there are many more- basically these people were getting paid to vote-
http://roselawgroupreporter.com/2013/02/gila-river-tribe-considers-vote-on-different-loop-202-alignment/
That's the issue when you have a relatively small amount of people who can vote on something like this.
With the lawsuit dismissed, how long before construction might start?
I'm under the impression it will start within the next month. Pretty much all of the properties in the path have been cleared except for the church, right?
Quote from: Sonic99 on August 22, 2016, 06:55:05 PM
I'm under the impression it will start within the next month. Pretty much all of the properties in the path have been cleared except for the church, right?
The Pecos section is ready. Only the church needs to be demolished. The 59th Ave section still needs time to acquire and/or clear properties.
WAHOO!!! I'm going to celebrate by listening to David Allen Coe and Jerry Jeff Walker. The kind of music NIMBYs would hate.
Quote from: 707 on August 24, 2016, 02:50:01 PM
WAHOO!!! I'm going to celebrate by listening to David Allen Coe and Jerry Jeff Walker. The kind of music NIMBYs would hate.
Why stop there? If you want to go full-on anti-NIMBY, crank up some Ted Nugent. Ol' Uncle Ted will give them all coronaries.
ADOT posted a video of the Pecos Road section of the South Mountain Freeway (before major construction):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fEzn7HMG0Q
The Rand McNally 2017 Road Atlas has this section of the South Mountain Freeway as already "under construction". No surprise there.
And now the Gila River tribe wants to appeal the enviro docs. Essentially their argument is to protect sacred lands that this freeway will, in their words, destroy.
http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2016/08/30/gila-river-tribe-to-appeal-court-decision-on-loop.html (http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2016/08/30/gila-river-tribe-to-appeal-court-decision-on-loop.html)
Will this ever end?
(My first post on here!)
The tribe could have saved those "sacred lands" several years ago by working with ADOT on routing the freeway in a different manner. The tribe just basically said "we don't want you to build a freeway at all" which has never even been an option on the table.
Any more lawsuits from the tribe are all political at this point.
There were a lot of tribal members who were against the freeway and voted the "no build" option even though it had no influence on what ADOT did or decided. The tribal government needs to at least show that they did everything they could to stop it.
In reality, I think the tribe is actually in favor of the freeway, it will help them with economic development on some of its land, similar to what the reservation did along the 101 in Scottsdale. Even when the new Vee Quiva casino a couple of years ago it was built it was designed to maximize its visibility from the new freeway.
Do you guys think this freeway will be open to traffic in stages? Or will it not open until the entire section is built?
This was from the Phoenix Business Journal yesterday -- construction starts Monday:
http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2016/09/15/adot-starts-south-mountain-freeway-construction.html
If you look at the map, there are four distinct segments; without a timeline on ADOT's site, I would suspect it would open in phases (the Pecos section being the first).
Worth noting that the construction starting tomorrow is merely a widening of an existing segment of 202 that doesn't actually extend the freeway at all. This work being completed doesn't make anything a done deal.
ADOT anticipates starting work on actually extending it early next year, but folks are still throwing lawsuits around, so...
Quote from: qguy on August 25, 2016, 11:52:25 AM
Quote from: 707 on August 24, 2016, 02:50:01 PM
WAHOO!!! I'm going to celebrate by listening to David Allen Coe and Jerry Jeff Walker. The kind of music NIMBYs would hate.
Why stop there? If you want to go full-on anti-NIMBY, crank up some Ted Nugent. Ol' Uncle Ted will give them all coronaries.
I've got a couple of nice tunes:
http://www.kurumi.com/music/nimby.html
http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showpost.php?p=5095794&postcount=133
From the Phoenix Business Journal article, I saw this and am confused.
QuoteWhen construction of the mainline freeway begins early next year, all Pecos Road traffic will be temporarily shifted to the eastbound lanes for approximately two years, and two lanes of traffic in each direction will be maintained at most times during construction, with the exception of periodic traffic restrictions at intersections with cross streets.
As I look at Pecos Rd, it's currently two lanes each direction with a small dirt median in the middle. I have no clue how they plan on having four lanes of travel on what is currently a two-lane configuration.
I also find it interesting that the entire freeway appears to elevate over all of the cross streets. No cross streets pass over the freeway at any location. Even the frontage road crossovers along the 59th Ave alignment pass underneath the 202. Is there any particular reason for that? Is it cheaper to elevate the freeway as opposed to elevate the cross streets?
Quote from: Sonic99 on September 19, 2016, 03:41:20 AM
From the Phoenix Business Journal article, I saw this and am confused.
QuoteWhen construction of the mainline freeway begins early next year, all Pecos Road traffic will be temporarily shifted to the eastbound lanes for approximately two years, and two lanes of traffic in each direction will be maintained at most times during construction, with the exception of periodic traffic restrictions at intersections with cross streets.
As I look at Pecos Rd, it's currently two lanes each direction with a small dirt median in the middle. I have no clue how they plan on having four lanes of travel on what is currently a two-lane configuration.
I also find it interesting that the entire freeway appears to elevate over all of the cross streets. No cross streets pass over the freeway at any location. Even the frontage road crossovers along the 59th Ave alignment pass underneath the 202. Is there any particular reason for that? Is it cheaper to elevate the freeway as opposed to elevate the cross streets?
The entire four lane divided arterial will be replaced by an eight lane facility - none of the existing pavement will survive.
By elevating the future freeway over the cross streets, no disturbance to surrounding properties will occur. That is outside the widened future ROW. Elevating a cross street over a level facility would necessitate fill movements to allow it to cross the facility. With fill movements into and well outside the proposed widened ROW.
While I disagree with the 59th Ave. alignment, it will be elevated at interchanges, through that area. MSE walls will support the future facility, between the main lanes and the frontages at interchanges. This minimizes land takings, and the needed width of required ROW. Depression of Loop 202 would be preferable, but the amount of fill, needed to be excavated, and no use for it on the project elsewhere nearby, makes depression impractible. The 59th Ave corridor is considerably more "built up" than the Pecos Rd. section.
Still believe it would be more beneficial and provide far better "connectivity" by tying directly into the existing Loop 101 interchange on I-10. A Papago I-10 Freeway style tunnel through Tolleson's downtown, while certainly more expensive could achieve this.
Even better, long term, would be to have an "extension" travelling straight west through Goodyear's southern area and turning north to directly tie into Loop 303. The northerly extension of the Gila tribes territory makes that it bit too close to existing I-10 however. And most likely redundant.
Quote from: DJStephens on September 19, 2016, 11:47:23 AM
Even better, long term, would be to have an "extension" travelling straight west through Goodyear's southern area and turning north to directly tie into Loop 303. The northerly extension of the Gila tribes territory makes that it bit too close to existing I-10 however. And most likely redundant.
Is something kind of like this what you had in mind?
http://www.azdot.gov/projects/phoenix-metro-area/state-route-30 (http://www.azdot.gov/projects/phoenix-metro-area/state-route-30)
I agree that it would be much better to connect to 101, but what is planned is still better than nothing, IMO.
I apologize if this is old news, but I hadn't seen this posted yet. ADOT has posted their detailed "Preliminary Design Maps" on the South Mountain Freeway page and there are some very interesting things here that have changed.
https://www.azdot.gov/projects/phoenix-metro-area/loop-202-(south-mountain-freeway) (https://www.azdot.gov/projects/phoenix-metro-area/loop-202-(south-mountain-freeway))
Brief summary of what I've seen so far.
- "Crossover" connections for the 59th Ave frontage roads have been eliminated. Traffic wishing to stay on 59th Ave at each end will use Lower Buckeye Road (SB) and Roosevelt St (NB) to get back onto 59th Ave proper
- Desert Foothills Parkway and 17th Ave interchanges are designed as diverging diamond interchanges (would to my knowledge be Arizona's first DDI's)
- Broadway, Southern, Dobbins, Elliott, and Estrella Roads are now all designed to be elevated over the SMF, instead of the SMF being elevated over all interchanges as was previously shown in the "flyover" video ADOT released a while ago
- Estrella Drive interchange is designed as a roundabout interchange
- The alteration of 51st Ave to interchange with the SMF has been deleted. 51st Ave will now simply go over the SMF with no direct connection. The SMF will have interchanges with Estrella Road and Ivanhoe Street instead, with Ivanhoe being the connection to the Vee Quiva Casino.
- The "crossovers" shown in the old ADOT video at Dobbins has also been eliminated, and a standard interchange is now planned. In addition, as mentioned above, Dobbins is now elevated above the SMF instead of the original plan of the other way around.
Interesting changes, I must admit. Thoughts?