Current Legislative Proposals to Increase State DOT Budgets

[Alps]

Voters brought enough pressure on Kentucky's legislature this year that they didn't even consider a rumored gas tax increase. Score one for the good guys, but no doubt they'll try again.

The electorate here is already in a mood to replace RINOs over their failure to impeach the governor over his mishandling of the covid situation, and their failure to pass more restrictive laws to rein in his emergency powers, and next year is both an election year and a biennial budget legislative session year, so it's doubtful a gas tax increase will pass next year either.

And there's really no need, despite the lobbying from the establishment Republicans and the highway contractors. News came out today that the Road Fund is raking in more money, and there's lots of pressure being brought for more responsible spending (eliminating single-bid contracts that exceed estimates, breaking up the asphalt companies' territorial monopolies, etc.).

If gas stays as expensive as it is here, the public will be in no mood to tolerate any artificial price increases.

Got the poll data to back this characterization up?

Please don't go down this political road. I know it's hard to separate politics from taxes but discussion of RINOs crosses a line.

[hbelkins]

Voters brought enough pressure on Kentucky's legislature this year that they didn't even consider a rumored gas tax increase. Score one for the good guys, but no doubt they'll try again.

The electorate here is already in a mood to replace RINOs over their failure to impeach the governor over his mishandling of the covid situation, and their failure to pass more restrictive laws to rein in his emergency powers, and next year is both an election year and a biennial budget legislative session year, so it's doubtful a gas tax increase will pass next year either.

And there's really no need, despite the lobbying from the establishment Republicans and the highway contractors. News came out today that the Road Fund is raking in more money, and there's lots of pressure being brought for more responsible spending (eliminating single-bid contracts that exceed estimates, breaking up the asphalt companies' territorial monopolies, etc.).

If gas stays as expensive as it is here, the public will be in no mood to tolerate any artificial price increases.

Got the poll data to back this characterization up?

I'm not aware of the gas tax specifically being polled, but I could probably find the press release online that came out today regarding revenue increases.

[Crown Victoria]

Pennsylvania's Transportation Revenue Options Commission is considering recommending a package fee in its report due next month. This would involve a small fee placed on package deliveries (such as by Amazon, FedEx, UPS, etc.) with revenues going to PennDOT. Such a fee has the potential to raise several hundred million dollars per year, depending on the exact amount of the fee.

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2021/07/11/PennDOT-delivery-fee-Amazon-transportation-funding/stories/202107110045


*This is not, as far as I'm aware, in a bill currently before the legislature, but is likely to be if it's included in the TROC's report, along with other options to be recommended. I'm listing it here as I'm sure other states will pursue this idea in the near future.

[hbelkins]

Pennsylvania's Transportation Revenue Options Commission is considering recommending a package fee in its report due next month. This would involve a small fee placed on package deliveries (such as by Amazon, FedEx, UPS, etc.) with revenues going to PennDOT. Such a fee has the potential to raise several hundred million dollars per year, depending on the exact amount of the fee.

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2021/07/11/PennDOT-delivery-fee-Amazon-transportation-funding/stories/202107110045


*This is not, as far as I'm aware, in a bill currently before the legislature, but is likely to be if it's included in the TROC's report, along with other options to be recommended. I'm listing it here as I'm sure other states will pursue this idea in the near future.

Do any other states have this kind of fee? I can see it being challenged in court as being interstate commerce, and thus subject to regulation by Congress instead of an individual state. And naturally, those fees will be passed on the consumer instead of being absorbed by the shippers. I can see this pushing sales back to brick-and-mortar locations. Now that states can charge sales tax on eBay purchases, even if the businesses don't have a physical presence in those states, there's no advantage to buying online if you have to pay shipping fees unless the price is drastically lower than you can find it in a store.

[Crown Victoria]

Pennsylvania's Transportation Revenue Options Commission is considering recommending a package fee in its report due next month. This would involve a small fee placed on package deliveries (such as by Amazon, FedEx, UPS, etc.) with revenues going to PennDOT. Such a fee has the potential to raise several hundred million dollars per year, depending on the exact amount of the fee.

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2021/07/11/PennDOT-delivery-fee-Amazon-transportation-funding/stories/202107110045


*This is not, as far as I'm aware, in a bill currently before the legislature, but is likely to be if it's included in the TROC's report, along with other options to be recommended. I'm listing it here as I'm sure other states will pursue this idea in the near future.

Do any other states have this kind of fee? I can see it being challenged in court as being interstate commerce, and thus subject to regulation by Congress instead of an individual state. And naturally, those fees will be passed on the consumer instead of being absorbed by the shippers. I can see this pushing sales back to brick-and-mortar locations. Now that states can charge sales tax on eBay purchases, even if the businesses don't have a physical presence in those states, there's no advantage to buying online if you have to pay shipping fees unless the price is drastically lower than you can find it in a store.

A package delivery fee was included in Colorado's recent transportation funding bill. They are the first, to my knowledge, to establish such a levy. No doubt the constitutionality of such a fee will be challenged in short order, however I believe it will survive, as it's a fee on a service (deliveries) and it's only charged on those within Colorado. As for the effect such a fee will have on the brick-and-mortar locations, even if deliveries are a tad more expensive, the convenience of not having to leave home will keep people ordering online.

[HighwayStar]

Pennsylvania's Transportation Revenue Options Commission is considering recommending a package fee in its report due next month. This would involve a small fee placed on package deliveries (such as by Amazon, FedEx, UPS, etc.) with revenues going to PennDOT. Such a fee has the potential to raise several hundred million dollars per year, depending on the exact amount of the fee.

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2021/07/11/PennDOT-delivery-fee-Amazon-transportation-funding/stories/202107110045


*This is not, as far as I'm aware, in a bill currently before the legislature, but is likely to be if it's included in the TROC's report, along with other options to be recommended. I'm listing it here as I'm sure other states will pursue this idea in the near future.

Do any other states have this kind of fee? I can see it being challenged in court as being interstate commerce, and thus subject to regulation by Congress instead of an individual state. And naturally, those fees will be passed on the consumer instead of being absorbed by the shippers. I can see this pushing sales back to brick-and-mortar locations. Now that states can charge sales tax on eBay purchases, even if the businesses don't have a physical presence in those states, there's no advantage to buying online if you have to pay shipping fees unless the price is drastically lower than you can find it in a store.

A package delivery fee was included in Colorado's recent transportation funding bill. They are the first, to my knowledge, to establish such a levy. No doubt the constitutionality of such a fee will be challenged in short order, however I believe it will survive, as it's a fee on a service (deliveries) and it's only charged on those within Colorado. As for the effect such a fee will have on the brick-and-mortar locations, even if deliveries are a tad more expensive, the convenience of not having to leave home will keep people ordering online.

"the convenience of not having to leave home will keep people ordering online"
Its not nearly that simple.

eCommerce enjoyed decades of preferential policy treatment, and mostly competed on price in a race to the bottom to match falling real wages. If not having to leave home was the real issue catalogs would have been far more popular than they were. Leaving home is not the issue, most people would prefer to have a great selection of same day, merchandise in your hand options, but when you race to the bottom and only price matters that goes out the window.

I am quite happy to have package delivery fees, etc. assessed, in fact I would prefer we reverse the sales tax treatment so that only online sales are taxed, ie. the opposite of the failed policies that distorted the market in the first place.

[Avalanchez71]

It could be determined that it is a restraint of interstate commerce.  However, the SCOTUS has also allowed sales tax collection on interstate sales as well.  I could see a challenge to this.  If they just increase the sale tax then they already have a pre cleared avenue for additional collection.  If the fee is added on the front end to the company they will no doubt challenge.  They will, however, pass the additional fee collection in the interim to all consumers regardless of location by raising the price of said goods. 

I do see an argument that the states could raise the increase of of goods flowing through the state with the increase of costs associated with said goods taxing the roadways, etc.  However, I could see the counterargument wherein the increase of sales via internet doesn't really add to the net increase of goods flowing into the state, it just shifts the patterns around.

[kphoger]

I can see this pushing sales back to brick-and-mortar locations.

I can't see anything pushing sales back to brick-and-mortar locations.  People will pay the extra money.

If not having to leave home was the real issue catalogs would have been far more popular than they were. Leaving home is not the issue ...

I think it's a generational thing.  The catalog generation (my parents' generation) would, by and large, be happy to return to brick and mortar, and they would be happy to order from catalogs.  However, the online shopping generation (my generation and younger) have no desire to go into a store unless they really have to.  Whatever is easiest and fastest is what they want–but mostly easiest.

[Rothman]

I'm Gen X and I'm a little amused by how malls were central to my life when I was young and now I feel fortunate to only go to one at most two times a year.  Online shopping is just too convenient in terms of location () and variety.

[kphoger]

I'm Gen X and I'm a little amused by how malls were central to my life when I was young and now I feel fortunate to only go to one at most two times a year.  Online shopping is just too convenient in terms of location () and variety.

Yeah, it's crazy how that shift happened during our lives.

(With my having grown up in a small town a million miles from anywhere, catalog shopping also used to be a big part of my life.  Heck, we used to order our Christmas tree through the mail.  Not an artificial one either, but a real Christmas tree.  The box would arrive, my dad and I would tug and pull the thing out, and then the branches would slowly expand to their usual breadth over about the next two or three days.)

[hbelkins]

I frequently heard it said that what contributed to the death of a lot of physical retailers (CompUSA and Circuit City being two of them) that people would go into the stores, examine the display models of whatever piece of electronics they wanted to buy, and then go find it from the cheapest online retailer possible.

And we have people here who have chafed at the thoughts of having to buy clothing online if their favorite stores disappear or move to a no-retail presence.

[HighwayStar]

I frequently heard it said that what contributed to the death of a lot of physical retailers (CompUSA and Circuit City being two of them) that people would go into the stores, examine the display models of whatever piece of electronics they wanted to buy, and then go find it from the cheapest online retailer possible.

And we have people here who have chafed at the thoughts of having to buy clothing online if their favorite stores disappear or move to a no-retail presence.

That was more of a symptom than a cause. Falling real wages were a major factor in the decline of both, Circuit City was an upmarket retailer in a race to the bottom, bad position to be in. The advantages given to e-commerce also hurt (not paying sales taxes, subsidized shipping, etc.)

[kphoger]

And we have people here who have chafed at the thoughts of having to buy clothing online if their favorite stores disappear or move to a no-retail presence.

Certain things like clothes are tough buy online, but plenty of people do.  Heck, now that I know what type of jeans I like, I simply order the exact same ones every couple of years.  I'm one of those who said I'd never buy jeans online.  Shoes, on the other hand...  Yeah, I'll probably stick with brick and mortar for shoes forever.  If I were a woman, I'd probably feel the same way about a bra:  gotta try it on first or risk being uncomfortable all day every day.

But there aren't very many things like that.  Bicycles are one.  Most things are not like bicycles.

[Plutonic Panda]

Missouri gas tax signed into law:

https://www.equipmentworld.com/better-roads/article/15066505/missouri-gas-tax-raised-for-first-time-in-25-years

Good for Missouri. Hopefully this can really help them get some much needed projects going.

[Scott5114]

Pennsylvania's Transportation Revenue Options Commission is considering recommending a package fee in its report due next month. This would involve a small fee placed on package deliveries (such as by Amazon, FedEx, UPS, etc.) with revenues going to PennDOT. Such a fee has the potential to raise several hundred million dollars per year, depending on the exact amount of the fee.

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2021/07/11/PennDOT-delivery-fee-Amazon-transportation-funding/stories/202107110045


*This is not, as far as I'm aware, in a bill currently before the legislature, but is likely to be if it's included in the TROC's report, along with other options to be recommended. I'm listing it here as I'm sure other states will pursue this idea in the near future.

Do any other states have this kind of fee? I can see it being challenged in court as being interstate commerce, and thus subject to regulation by Congress instead of an individual state. And naturally, those fees will be passed on the consumer instead of being absorbed by the shippers. I can see this pushing sales back to brick-and-mortar locations. Now that states can charge sales tax on eBay purchases, even if the businesses don't have a physical presence in those states, there's no advantage to buying online if you have to pay shipping fees unless the price is drastically lower than you can find it in a store.

Walmart ain't got a search bar, and you don't have to wait for some yokel to quit staring into space in front of the merchandise on Amazon.

[hbelkins]

Pennsylvania's Transportation Revenue Options Commission is considering recommending a package fee in its report due next month. This would involve a small fee placed on package deliveries (such as by Amazon, FedEx, UPS, etc.) with revenues going to PennDOT. Such a fee has the potential to raise several hundred million dollars per year, depending on the exact amount of the fee.

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2021/07/11/PennDOT-delivery-fee-Amazon-transportation-funding/stories/202107110045


*This is not, as far as I'm aware, in a bill currently before the legislature, but is likely to be if it's included in the TROC's report, along with other options to be recommended. I'm listing it here as I'm sure other states will pursue this idea in the near future.

Do any other states have this kind of fee? I can see it being challenged in court as being interstate commerce, and thus subject to regulation by Congress instead of an individual state. And naturally, those fees will be passed on the consumer instead of being absorbed by the shippers. I can see this pushing sales back to brick-and-mortar locations. Now that states can charge sales tax on eBay purchases, even if the businesses don't have a physical presence in those states, there's no advantage to buying online if you have to pay shipping fees unless the price is drastically lower than you can find it in a store.

Walmart ain't got a search bar, and you don't have to wait for some yokel to quit staring into space in front of the merchandise on Amazon.

Actually, if you have the Walmart app on your phone, it's easy to find if an item you want is in stock, and what aisle it's in. I've used the search function in the Walmart app in the store many times.

[kphoger]

Walmart ain't got a search bar ...

Actually, if you have the Walmart app on your phone, it's easy to find if an item you want is in stock, and what aisle it's in. I've used the search function in the Walmart app in the store many times.

I think you just blew Scott's mind.

[hbelkins]

Walmart ain't got a search bar ...

Actually, if you have the Walmart app on your phone, it's easy to find if an item you want is in stock, and what aisle it's in. I've used the search function in the Walmart app in the store many times.

I think you just blew Scott's mind.

Seriously, that function has been a big help when I'm in an unfamiliar Walmart, or one that has undergone significant rearrangement of the merchandise since the last time I was in it. Very handy to keep from having to walk all over the store to find a particular department, or which department a particular item is in if it fits in more than one category, or if the item is in stock in that particular store.

Walmarts have in-store wi-fi, so when you connect to a particular store's network, the app knows which store you're in and will show you the store layout. It's nice to know that the Hotshot No-Pest Strips are in lawn & garden, aisle Y17, and not in with the regular pesticides in the home department, aisle G12.

[sparker]

I frequently heard it said that what contributed to the death of a lot of physical retailers (CompUSA and Circuit City being two of them) that people would go into the stores, examine the display models of whatever piece of electronics they wanted to buy, and then go find it from the cheapest online retailer possible.

And we have people here who have chafed at the thoughts of having to buy clothing online if their favorite stores disappear or move to a no-retail presence.

That was more of a symptom than a cause. Falling real wages were a major factor in the decline of both, Circuit City was an upmarket retailer in a race to the bottom, bad position to be in. The advantages given to e-commerce also hurt (not paying sales taxes, subsidized shipping, etc.)

I'm in the specialty audio business; the "race to the bottom" was precipitated not only by the advent of online sales but the larger shift from music-oriented audio systems to multimodal home theater, particularly pre-packaged systems sold at, first, "big box" stores (and they did come in pretty big boxes!) and shifting to primarily online (the big "A" being prevalent) since about 2011.  Whereas music listening is generally a matter of reproductive precision tempered with individual preference, home theater is much more a fungible product grouping, supported by most of the major audio manufacturers, most of whom have been acquired by larger corporations or holding companies in the past decade.  The prime aim today is not to produce quality music reproduction equipment (although some companies still maintain specialty divisions still doing so) -- and there are a multitude of smaller independent manufacturers out there (my firm included) catering to those still interested in quality audio reproduction -- but to churn cash; most corporate management in the field today looks for quantity rather than quality -- and prepackaged home theater provides the volume they're seeking.  And if truth be told, more people respond to visual cues than aural, so there is a pre-sold market ready to purchase "plug-and-play" systems.  It's tailor-made for online commerce.

[HighwayStar]

I frequently heard it said that what contributed to the death of a lot of physical retailers (CompUSA and Circuit City being two of them) that people would go into the stores, examine the display models of whatever piece of electronics they wanted to buy, and then go find it from the cheapest online retailer possible.

And we have people here who have chafed at the thoughts of having to buy clothing online if their favorite stores disappear or move to a no-retail presence.

That was more of a symptom than a cause. Falling real wages were a major factor in the decline of both, Circuit City was an upmarket retailer in a race to the bottom, bad position to be in. The advantages given to e-commerce also hurt (not paying sales taxes, subsidized shipping, etc.)

I'm in the specialty audio business; the "race to the bottom" was precipitated not only by the advent of online sales but the larger shift from music-oriented audio systems to multimodal home theater, particularly pre-packaged systems sold at, first, "big box" stores (and they did come in pretty big boxes!) and shifting to primarily online (the big "A" being prevalent) since about 2011.  Whereas music listening is generally a matter of reproductive precision tempered with individual preference, home theater is much more a fungible product grouping, supported by most of the major audio manufacturers, most of whom have been acquired by larger corporations or holding companies in the past decade.  The prime aim today is not to produce quality music reproduction equipment (although some companies still maintain specialty divisions still doing so) -- and there are a multitude of smaller independent manufacturers out there (my firm included) catering to those still interested in quality audio reproduction -- but to churn cash; most corporate management in the field today looks for quantity rather than quality -- and prepackaged home theater provides the volume they're seeking.  And if truth be told, more people respond to visual cues than aural, so there is a pre-sold market ready to purchase "plug-and-play" systems.  It's tailor-made for online commerce.

Prices are set by what a buyer will pay, not the other way around. Falling real wages means lower demand for premium products and higher demand for low grade junk.

[Scott5114]

Walmart ain't got a search bar ...

Actually, if you have the Walmart app on your phone, it's easy to find if an item you want is in stock, and what aisle it's in. I've used the search function in the Walmart app in the store many times.

I think you just blew Scott's mind.

Why should I have to install software on my device to make shopping somewhere not a pain in the ass?  I don't install any apps for a single retail establishment. I have better stuff to put in that storage space than capitalism. I don't use Amazon's app either; I place orders through the Web browser on my  desktop.

Walmart is constantly redoing their store layouts and putting things in different aisles, and even moving entire departments around at the whim of some tie-wearing parasite with a strap of hundred dollar bills jammed so far up his ass he can't think straight. So even when I go to the Walmart in my own city, it's an unfamiliar Walmart.

Meanwhile, my grocery store has rearranged its layout once the whole time it's been open, and that was only because Oklahoma legalized selling alcohol in grocery stores and they needed to make room for that (and that only really impacted three aisles). Otherwise, every single item is in the exact same spot that it was when I stepped into the place in 2013.

[HighwayStar]

Walmart ain't got a search bar ...

Actually, if you have the Walmart app on your phone, it's easy to find if an item you want is in stock, and what aisle it's in. I've used the search function in the Walmart app in the store many times.

I think you just blew Scott's mind.

Why should I have to install software on my device to make shopping somewhere not a pain in the ass?  I don't install any apps for a single retail establishment. I have better stuff to put in that storage space than capitalism. I don't use Amazon's app either; I place orders through the Web browser on my  desktop.

Walmart is constantly redoing their store layouts and putting things in different aisles, and even moving entire departments around at the whim of some tie-wearing parasite with a strap of hundred dollar bills jammed so far up his ass he can't think straight. So even when I go to the Walmart in my own city, it's an unfamiliar Walmart.

Meanwhile, my grocery store has rearranged its layout once the whole time it's been open, and that was only because Oklahoma legalized selling alcohol in grocery stores and they needed to make room for that (and that only really impacted three aisles). Otherwise, every single item is in the exact same spot that it was when I stepped into the place in 2013.

"I have better stuff to put in that storage space than capitalism."
We are talking about storage space worth fractions of a cent here 

[Scott5114]

Walmart ain't got a search bar ...

Actually, if you have the Walmart app on your phone, it's easy to find if an item you want is in stock, and what aisle it's in. I've used the search function in the Walmart app in the store many times.

I think you just blew Scott's mind.

Why should I have to install software on my device to make shopping somewhere not a pain in the ass?  I don't install any apps for a single retail establishment. I have better stuff to put in that storage space than capitalism. I don't use Amazon's app either; I place orders through the Web browser on my  desktop.

Walmart is constantly redoing their store layouts and putting things in different aisles, and even moving entire departments around at the whim of some tie-wearing parasite with a strap of hundred dollar bills jammed so far up his ass he can't think straight. So even when I go to the Walmart in my own city, it's an unfamiliar Walmart.

Meanwhile, my grocery store has rearranged its layout once the whole time it's been open, and that was only because Oklahoma legalized selling alcohol in grocery stores and they needed to make room for that (and that only really impacted three aisles). Otherwise, every single item is in the exact same spot that it was when I stepped into the place in 2013.

"I have better stuff to put in that storage space than capitalism."
We are talking about storage space worth fractions of a cent here 

And it's my fraction of a cent, not Walmart's. I've filled up my phone storage before and I'm not going to buy a bigger SD card for it just to work around the fact that some Walmart executive figured out they can make 0.00000001% more profit putting toilet paper in the automotive section this week. It's much cheaper to just shop at Crest.

[Rothman]

Walmart ain't got a search bar ...

Actually, if you have the Walmart app on your phone, it's easy to find if an item you want is in stock, and what aisle it's in. I've used the search function in the Walmart app in the store many times.

I think you just blew Scott's mind.

Why should I have to install software on my device to make shopping somewhere not a pain in the ass?  I don't install any apps for a single retail establishment. I have better stuff to put in that storage space than capitalism. I don't use Amazon's app either; I place orders through the Web browser on my  desktop.

Walmart is constantly redoing their store layouts and putting things in different aisles, and even moving entire departments around at the whim of some tie-wearing parasite with a strap of hundred dollar bills jammed so far up his ass he can't think straight. So even when I go to the Walmart in my own city, it's an unfamiliar Walmart.

Meanwhile, my grocery store has rearranged its layout once the whole time it's been open, and that was only because Oklahoma legalized selling alcohol in grocery stores and they needed to make room for that (and that only really impacted three aisles). Otherwise, every single item is in the exact same spot that it was when I stepped into the place in 2013.

"I have better stuff to put in that storage space than capitalism."
We are talking about storage space worth fractions of a cent here 

And it's my fraction of a cent, not Walmart's. I've filled up my phone storage before and I'm not going to buy a bigger SD card for it just to work around the fact that some Walmart executive figured out they can make 0.00000001% more profit putting toilet paper in the automotive section this week. It's much cheaper to just shop at Crest.

No.  You must shop at Walmart.

[kphoger]

Walmart ain't got a search bar ...

Actually, if you have the Walmart app on your phone, it's easy to find if an item you want is in stock, and what aisle it's in. I've used the search function in the Walmart app in the store many times.

I think you just blew Scott's mind.

Why should I have to install software on my device to make shopping somewhere not a pain in the ass?  I don't install any apps for a single retail establishment. I have better stuff to put in that storage space than capitalism. I don't use Amazon's app either; I place orders through the Web browser on my  desktop.

Walmart is constantly redoing their store layouts and putting things in different aisles, and even moving entire departments around at the whim of some tie-wearing parasite with a strap of hundred dollar bills jammed so far up his ass he can't think straight. So even when I go to the Walmart in my own city, it's an unfamiliar Walmart.

Meanwhile, my grocery store has rearranged its layout once the whole time it's been open, and that was only because Oklahoma legalized selling alcohol in grocery stores and they needed to make room for that (and that only really impacted three aisles). Otherwise, every single item is in the exact same spot that it was when I stepped into the place in 2013.

Preaching to the choir here.  Remember, I have a dumbphone these days.  And my old smartphone had such small storage that I hardly installed any apps either.

The point was merely that Walmart does have a search bar...